Anonymous
Guest
Aug 25, 2004
5:12 PM
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I know this will start some people going, but since we are all here to put down others and ruin the future of the hobby, I thought I would help you all contribute to its demise. I know the arguing will begin here again, but Tony doesn't seem to mind.
I found the definition of a Birmingham Roller in Pensoms book. It is defined as follows:
"The Birmingham Roller is noted for its exclusive ability to turn over backwards and rotate with inestimable speed for considerable distances downward."
The standard reads as follows: "The true Birmingham Roller which turns over backwards with inconceivable rapidity through a considerable distance like a spinning ball."
If this is the true definition of a "Birmingham Roller" and I have a Dominant Opal or Qualmond that does this, then do I have a Birmingham Roller or is it still a mongrel?
Also, just to clarify, would any of you anti-color people admit that there are colored birds that can and will roll as well or better than some "hard" colored birds?
SKL
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Russ
Guest
Aug 25, 2004
6:23 PM
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Call it an American Colored Roller. It's not a 'true' birmingham if you created it using another breed in order to inject a color gene .
Just my opinion.
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rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
143 posts
Aug 25, 2004
7:34 PM
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SKL, I think you have it wrong if you think this site is somehow bad for the Birmingham Roller. From time to time some of the posters on certain threads can have strong opinions. So what?
If we all agreed on everything then some of us would be unneccesary! LOL
Personally, unless someone is just outright attacking someone, I will leave the post alone. However, I have edited and deleted many posts.
A while back the Show Roller was discussed and its supporters had every opportunity to express themselves. After awhile it became obvious that they needed their own site and they have moved on to it. I wish them luck.
I think there are some who simply want to split hairs and create controversy and so post things to intentionally mix things up. However, I have no problem with honest discussion and opinions being expressed. Right?
I have noticed that with myself, everyone knows who I am, I try to stay out of the fray, those that so elequently defend the performance (not color) oriented Birmingham Roller are also well known.
It seems that those throwing around accusations and snide innuendos so often don't reveal who they are.
They hide behind "Annonymous" postings and poke a finger at the serious performance breeders that point out the differences between breeding for color and breeding for performance only.
If someone has an opinion worth having it is an opinion worth defending.
My advice for anyone reading discussion threads is to take from them what you can use and leave the rest. TO ALL who post to any of the threads thank you for helping educate and inform the many many who read and want to learn and benefit from your experience and knowledge. FLY! ON! Tony Chavarria
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rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
144 posts
Aug 25, 2004
7:57 PM
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BTW, I think you are perhaps missing the point. Just because a pigeon turns over with inconceivable rapidity does not make it a Birmingham Roller. It is just one of the characteristics that is demonstrated by a good Birmingham.
By your logic, you are saying that if a Modena did this it would be a Birmingham Roller. I think you see how absurd using the quote, you did, really is when taken to this extreme.
I am sure you did not mean this? FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Anonymous
Guest
Aug 26, 2004
5:36 AM
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Tony,
First off, you are right in that your comment is absurd. Modenas do not roll and nobody ever said they did. Apparently you cannot define "Birmingham Roller" either because if you could it woul mean that some colored birds would qualify as such and that would just be unheard of. Since this will be my last post on this site I will get a few things out....
Knowing my name does not change anything. It would just give you and your little circle of friends here another person to trash. Why don't you just admit that is just what this forum is. You and a few of your friends who just like to have people to bad mouth. But for the color breeders that post here, you would have no one to argue with.
You claim this site is for all aspects of the Roller, but what you really mean is just YOUR aspects. You need to clarify for everyone who comes to your site that this is intended ONLY for those who wish to fly competitively and there is no room for any other views here except yours and your friends. Scott was right in that these "debates" only cause confusion. Tell me how that is good for the newcomer?
It has become very apparent that this whole site is a business to you (you have even said so yourself) for the sole purpose of making money, not helping anyone else out. I applaud the Show Roller people for pulling away from this site as they were only ridiculed here anyway. Now if you could just get rid of those darn color breeders all would be right in your little world, huh?
One other thing that I have noticed throughout the whole color debate is that the color breeders never trash talk or put down any one else's birds. Funny, that is the first thing the anti-color people do by talking about mongrels and cross breeds. I do breed a few colors and they will perform with the best of them. Scott is highly respected among the competition breeders and has earned his right as such. I am sure he has great birds and is very happy with them. Tony, I am also just as sure that your birds are good as well. Problem is, you will not admit (at least not publicly) that any color breeder's birds are any good at all. Are you getting it now?
Finally, I notice how some of your circle are great at avoiding questions and changing the subject when they cannot answer in their own best interests. For example, Scott was asked a few times what he normally charges for a good pair of birds. He either is too ashamed of his outrageous prices or just will not answer the question. Tonyy, you start your birds at $50.00 each. I would have to have a guaranteed, proven bird that was exceptional before I would even ask anywhere near that much. But then again, I am not in this for money....?
In closing I would like to wish ALL competition fliers the best of luck with their birds. To the color breeders, keep on keeping on. Pensom did not fly in competition because he so loved the hobby and the birds that he did not want to get involved with the politics of the game. We could all learn something from him.
SKL
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Dry Creek lofts
43 posts
Aug 26, 2004
7:09 AM
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This is in responce to ANON,s last post you are wrong when you think that this site is just for a few close friends to trash and bad mouth outher flyers.
As a new roller flyer I have had a lot of great help from The people here on this site and as a long time pigeon flyer I can see what Scott and the other comp. flyers are talking about and for your information there right when they say that if you are going try to fly in comp. that you need to breed to the roll and not to color.
It is hard enough to get 20 birds that are good enough to fly in a big fly let alone 20 birds with color also with depth control and freq.
In race birds I was a pretty fair flyer and even in race birds you breed best to best and dont look for special colors.
color breeding is more for the show crowd and that is where you need to be if that is all you care about is rare colors.
As a new player in comp. rollers I enjoy this site as it has the answers that I am looking for in regards to Birmingham roller breeding training and comp. flying as the site tital states at the start check it out.
Good luck in what ever you do with your birds and keep them flying. Chuck
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Anonymous
Guest
Aug 26, 2004
7:18 AM
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Hi Chuck,
I think the color breeders are not trying to win the world cup, they just some acknowledgement from you "Comp" guys that there are some good colored performers out there. The problem is, none will admit this because it would mean they are wrong and pride will not allow for such nonsense from the top competition guys.
Roy D.
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Flying Roller
29 posts
Aug 26, 2004
7:36 AM
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I would liek to agree with Chuck in that this site has been more than helpful to me, a newbie in the sport. I don't compete and may never, but the help I received has been instrumental in my love for these birds.
As a new guy who wanted rollers that rolled (duh) I was ticked when birds were sold to me that didn't do much.I made the mistake of buying without seeing them in the air, and also wasn't sure what to look for. Where I live you have to drive over 2 hours to get to the only guy with these birds and wasn't sure what I was looking for.
This site has helped so much that I actually feel more knowledgable now. The discussions between color & performance are important because new guys like me need to be immersed in the BRP culture in order to get a full grasp of the sport/hobby. Perhaps there are some who take it too far with insults, but others make good OBJECTIVE points which have been helpful.
Tony, you have every right to charge for a bird (they cost money to feed)People won't buy them if they don't want to pay that, and others will pay if they like what you got. It's really not all that complicated.
Scott, and all you other guys, thanks for all the practical advice & help you have given me over the winter. Thanks for taking the time to help us new guys out.
Terry Lapointe
Last Edited by Flying Roller on Aug 26, 2004 11:53 AM
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Anonymous
Guest
Aug 26, 2004
7:52 AM
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As a newcomer to this hobby I too look for guidance where I can. I'm still waiting for someone that "knows what they're talking about" to define "Birmingham Roller". Surely someone can elaborate or twist Bill Pensom's definition into something we can apply to do to help people like me out.
Mike
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
167 posts
Aug 26, 2004
12:51 PM
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Define the Birmingham Roller. Pretty easy isn't it? Developed in an around the area of Birmingham England and the Black Country by hard core flyers who wanted more than aerial tumblers. Their expectations higher than others, they kept to themselves and cultivated a strain of performing roller that became known for it's specialized skill of great rolling performance, instead of just tumbling. The Birmingham Roller was born..and then exported via several avenues to the United States. The Birmingham Roller IS a roller pigeon specifically developed and bred in a small community in England. The Birmingham Roller is a spinner of great quality and bred from the finest lines that created this fine breed. It was developed for a precise function in a tight network of gentlemen who forged a breed from their efforts. Its a genetic thing that makes a Birmingham a Birmingham, and not just another roller. There are plenty of rollers out there, but the Birmingham is unique in its own right.
SKL--It was stated over and over again, it is not about the roll, but about the diluting or contaminating of the genes of a specially developed roller, not for the roll, but for the color. Again IT IS NOT ABOUT HOW GOOD THE BIRD ROLLS!!!! I have some andalusians from Randy Gibsons and they can be super freakin fast. But few if any have ever made the A-team. Why, can't trust them, lack of control, sketchy kitters, strange character. Are these in non-crossed rollers? Sure. Anyone who flys competitively knows you get about 20 good ones for every 100 produced. My andalusians are a novelty and I don't consider them Birminghams, just rollers. I have yet to see an opal, reduced, milky or any other show mutation roll worth a shit in a kit. Sure they roll, many roll a lot, but that is all they do, just roll. They have to do everything right which seems to be a fault in them, obviously from the cross to a bird that lacks the correct mind make up to have the Birmingham Roller characteristics. I like looking an my andalusians and really like it when one of them rips off a smokin roll in front of others. Sad part is more times than not I have to say....but I can't trust them, they don't have the true roller mind. Maybe someday they will. If you wan't answers SKL...look at the fly records for the past 10 or more years. If you can delve into the specifics of each winning kit, you'll find they are usually one of the basic roller colors. I only know of one person who has a winning record and raises color rollers as well. My good friend Randy Gibson won many, many flys, state flys, and nearly the big ones as well, with a sprinkling of andalusians in his kit. A sprinkling, meaning a few out of the 20. The rest were all his older original stuff. He also had some beautiful opal and reduced variations, but admitted, they are junk, just pretty to look at. The other day he told me he is done messing with the whole color thing, stating they just don't have the mind for it, no matter how you breed them. This is coming from a Master Flyer who had some colored birds in his kit when he was kicking ass. If you go to his house now, you will see that most of them are gone except for a few andalusians. What does that tell you SKL..and anyone else puzzled by the seemingly anti-color sentiments? Just because a roller turns over backwards, it doesn't make it a Birmingham. A Birmingham possesses specialized traits that were bred into it a long, long time ago.
Brian.
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Anonymous
Guest
Aug 26, 2004
1:53 PM
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Okay, I'm still reading the responses, and I still haven't seen what the definition is of the "Birmingham" roller. It appears more that there are a bunch of theories on what constitutes a true "Birmingham" roller. Brian, you mentioned on another post that you had pedigrees on your birds that could be traced back to England. Is this something typical that I should be looking for? In all honesty, I really can't see a safe-sound way of getting into the breed, and know that I'm getting true "Birmingham" Rollers for a fact. If anything, and I'm hearing correctly, there are breeders that are trying to isolate the same characteristics that were developed in England, cultivate those, and continue to call them "Birmingham" Rollers. I guess what I'm asking is, can't anyone do that with their rollers and call them such? I mean, if they show the same qualities and are bred for the same performance, etc.? I'm just trying to make the right choices here, as I'm new to the whole thing, and only looking for guidance, not controversy.
Thanks,
Mike
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Mother lode lofts
111 posts
Aug 26, 2004
2:56 PM
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Well SKL I was hoping to back out of this debate but since you brought up my name quite a few time's I think that you deserve a response.
First off your discription of a Birmingham Roller was right on the mark. At least that is what they are supposed to do but as Pensom pointed out there are many that do not properly represent the breed and I guess that is why we call a cull a cull. And if a Oriental Roller rolls within the standard of a Birmingham Roller no it does not just automaticly become another breed such as the Birmingham Roller.
Why we are on Pensom and your remark about he did not fly competitions. This is false. But what he did was state was that the Birmingham Rollers flown under Competition Tumbler rules were detrimental to the breed. and that one would be a hard one to argue since it gave no consideration to the qaulity and depth of the Birmingham Roller. We now have competition rules that award for qaulity and depth along with a minimum depth standard. in the old days it didn't matter if they went two feet or thirty feet they were all scored the same. Same with qaulity. They could tumble or spin and would still score the same. All of this is no longer the case.
As for trash talking about birds. Never did myself or anyone else trash talk anyone's birds in particular. but a mix blood is a mix blood no matter how you look at it.
You may also wish to go back and reread who got nasty and personal on those posts.
Now for my favorite out of your post. And that being how I have been avoiding questions about how much I sell my birds for. To be honest with you I have never seen this asked of me unless it was a very long time ago and I cant remember the situation. You also made mention that I have avoided this question because that I am embarrased at how much I sell them for. Well SKL you are right I am embarrased because other than when I was a kid or count birds that I have donated to auctions such as the NBRC I havn't sold a single bird. Thats right, not a single bird. but I have helped out more than a few. And there are some on here that have inquired about buying birds. Ask them what I told them. There are also a few that have gotten a few birds from me. Again ask them what they paid. sorry you disapoint you.
Overall even though that this topic has gone sideways as it allways does it still opens eye's and will save particular people time and money and if nothing else set them off with some knowledge as long as they can sort through the Spin and do thier homework. It's really not that hard to figure out the truth if that knowledge is desired.
Scott
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Aug 26, 2004 3:16 PM
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Anonymous
Guest
Aug 26, 2004
3:09 PM
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You now what...screw this shit! I'm better off avoiding you people, the breed, and especially this site. Jesus! I've posed the same question and have asked for help, and you either are just ignoring me, or flat out don't know how best to help me. You're all full of shit and hot air!
I can't believe I've wasted this much time.
Good luck...I would have expected more from such an esteemed class of gentlemen only wanting to guide people and promote the hobby of the roller or cull or mongrel...whatever the hell you want to call it.
Later,
Mike
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
172 posts
Aug 26, 2004
3:14 PM
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Mike-I know I can speak for others and genuinely say it is good to hear that are seeking to find the best information you can about getting started with good rollers. I think maybe you might be looking far beyond the scope of what you really should be looking for. I get more of a feeling that you might be kind of looking for a specific feature that distinguishes one from the other, kind of like why one breed looks different than another, a visual thing. If you truly are looking to get Birminghams that are as true as the records kept, then I can say there are a bunch of fanciers, some backyard and some competitive, that have families that are very closely connected to the birds old Willie himself brought over. I'm not one who really cares much for paper pushing. To me pedigrees beyond the third or fourth generation are just an interesting novelty. But in some cases there was a potent bird whose genes have cultivated great reproduction of performance, most often those can be traced to birds Pensom brought over. What I think you are looking for can only be seen and understood while standing under kits of Birms with this legacy. There is a specific trait to them that will stand out when you have seen several kits of them perform. Of course it also depends on what you are looking for too. Some have higher standards than others (as we have obviously seen). I'll take a stab at a possible analogy. The Janssen(sp) brothers built a dynasty family of racing homers that to some were considered a breed among the strains of racing homers. It is what the birds did that made them special and dominant racers. By just looking at them, chances are most wouldn't know the difference, but those who have flown them knew how much better they were. The same kind of holds true for the True Birms in that they well specially developed for velocity rolling and in the process a breed was created. The specifics set in genetic stone characteristically. What does that mean to you and I? Well beside making for good conversation, it is the ground work, the foundation, built over decade after decade and over many generations. When this genetic make up is altered by say, crossing to a totally different breed, the formulation that makes up the what the originators of the Birm created is diluted, or in the eyes of some hard core fanciers, greatly manipulated beyond the point of repair. The question would then be why repair? Why spend your generation trying to redo what others spent a lifetime creating? There are so many great roller families out there, based on performance alone, that one doesn't need to consider whether or not they are linked to the past, but rather are they good enough for you? All one has to do is spend some time in the backyards of roller Americana and I think the obvious will present itself. I am sincere when I say I wish you all the luck Mike in finding the right group of birds that suits your needs and desires.
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Guest
Guest
Aug 26, 2004
3:17 PM
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Mike, be patient. Your question will be addressed. Please edit the curse words before they are edited or the post removed.
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Mother lode lofts
112 posts
Aug 26, 2004
3:58 PM
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Give us a minute here Mike it isnt easy typing with two fingers and besides as I was just kicking out a kit I was thinking of a logical reponse. I think that the First thing you need to do is look up what the definition of a breed is. As Brian pointed out it was a breed that was developed in and around Birmingham England and was named as such just like many breeds being named after thier geographic orgins.
I have friends in England and yes the breed is still Birmingham Roller even though they are far from Birmingham due to that is the area that the breed originated from.
I also have Pedigrees going back to England. does this mean that they are some super bird. No not even,culls are just as easy to write paper on as champs. And there are going to some mistakes on them do to open loft breeding. But it does show you the lofts that particular lines came down out of. And in the case of my own there aren't a slew of hands that these birds came down from. And all are hardcore old time Rollermen. Pensoms book is basic but full of good stuff and here is an example "Never obtain a bird from a questionable Loft" And this still holds true to this day.
On the Pedigree thing. there have also been many that have mis-used them for sales purposes and basicly if you see champ all over the place and nothing but awsome birds (on Paper) to the point of "how the Hell can you go wrong" then I suggest "beware". all my Peds are basic with things such as "foundation" or a star here and there. Or pointing out such things as "full bro Sis mating" you get the idea,there is also band, year,color and breeder.
Nothing special just general information. When I write one out I give my opinion of the bird and that is about it. I also don't write them out unless there is a good reason. There is something to be said for those that respect thier birds enough to retain the history of the present past and future and do so as accuratly as humanly possible .
Scott
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Aug 26, 2004 4:18 PM
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Steve Sissel
Guest
Aug 26, 2004
4:01 PM
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Mike,
I am going to refer you to the most knowledgable man on the Birmingham Roller.
After all he wrote the book. LOL
Tell him the Drill Sgt. said Hey and refered you to him.
Call Tom Monson, he is a lawyer in Salt Lake City Utah.
His # is 801-272-2291
His E-Mail is : monsonrollers@yahoo.com
And I ain't lying LOL
Later
Steve
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Anonymous
Guest
Aug 26, 2004
4:08 PM
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Still no answer to the original question..... And, please Steve, don't answer because I wouldn't believe you if your tongue came notarized.
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
176 posts
Aug 26, 2004
4:20 PM
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I believe the question was answered several times over. Maybe you just didnt understand it or are looking for a visual guide like many other breeds have. If you have a copy of last years World Cup bulletin, there is a great and lenghty article that discusses how the Birmingham was created, names of some of the men who created it and the specifics they sought in the creation of it. Maybe that would shed some light on your question?
Brian.
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Anonymous
Guest
Aug 26, 2004
4:23 PM
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What breeds were originally crossed in order to create the Birmingham Roller?
As far as not understanding and not getting it, I think I should now fit right into the little circle of Competition guys who post here. Now you know how some of the color breeders feel. YIPEEE!!!
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
179 posts
Aug 26, 2004
4:35 PM
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In earnest to answer your question, I am including a quote from our esteemed Birmingham Roller historian, Tom Monson, who posted his on one of our lists recently.
"Regarding the common history of Birminghams, Dutch Tumblers, Mags, Comps, Tipplers and Wests, I think it's also likely that Tipplers received an extra infusion of foreign blood from the Middle East at some point between 1850 and 1920. Pakistani, Indian, and Turkish high-flying
breeds exist, many of which have the "light print" distinguishing features of light print English Flying Tipplers. Either the English blood got to Pakistan or the Pakistani blood got into the English Tipplers. India (and perhaps Pakistan?) was a British colony or protectorate during the 19th Century, and British soldiers were
continuously being conveyed to and from India to man the outposts Britain maintained there. By the way, although many suppose that Birmingham Rollers as we know them today have existed for centuries, there is reason to question this
supposition. While flying tumblers of various kinds -- ranging from flippers to deep rollers -- probably have existed for centuries."
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fhtfire
40 posts
Aug 26, 2004
4:45 PM
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First off I am new to the hobby. I have received so much info and insight from the individuals that post on this page. I am sick of people bad mouthing Scott. Just because he does not agree with you, does not mean you insult him. Another thing...I went to Scotts house when I first started out to see some birds fly. I did not ask if he had birds for sale or anything. I just wanted to see his kits. When I was ready to leave he said...lets pick you out some good birds to take home. He pulled a nice cock out of his B team from his foundation as well as other birds. I asked how much...and he just laughed. He said he could tell that I was into this and was giving them to me. I could not believe it. That is right...HE GAVE THEM TO ME FOR FREE! He is hard nosed and stands for what he believes in...but he is also one of the nicest guys I know and loves pigeons more than anything.
As this being a site of buddies and whatever...you are out of your mind. The only people that post on this site that I have met personally is Chuck Foster and Scott Campbell. I have never met Tony. or anyone else on this site for that matter.
As wanting a definition of a Birmingham Roller...that is like ..Give me the Definition of a Black Angus cow....Well its Black....its big...it eats hay...good steaks. Get my drift...if you raise Black Angus and have been around Black Angus..you do not need a definition...you just know what it is. Also..it is still a cow and really if you put a bunch of Black cows in a field and say pick me out a black angus...will you truly be able too. My point is you can't even say if it is a true Birmingham roller until you raise them and see them fly and learn the characteristics. I raised many different types of pigeons over the years and you can just tell a birmingham roller...they have a look of just being smart..it is a look in the eye...like I am the baddest bird in the world...Kind of like looking at an eagle in the eye...They are compact..they move very graceful...they are very light for there size... You can't put into words...but when they are in the air...boy...you know it is a Birmingham roller. You also stated that how do you know it is a birmingham roller. There are some thing that you have to look at when getting them and starting out...the respect of someone who is selling the birds or giving them away Is this person meeting the standards of a birmingham roller on the perch and in the air and someone who has been in the business for a while and who is well respected in the industry. Now...if you saw a Black cow and you knew nothing about cows and wanted a purebred black angus cow and the farmer said that,,,,,the cow he had was a black angus would you take his word for it. I surely hope not...But if you came across a farmer who was registered in the Black angus owner association...has won many awards with his Black Angus Cows...Judges all over the world Black Angus Cows....Is one of the top 12 Breeders in the world in Black Angus cows....Well that is the person I would listen to on Black Angus Cows and want some of his Black Angus Cows. Obviously, He would not be in the position he is in if he did not raise black angus cows or know much about them. Get my drift. I guarantee if you breed a Texas long horn with a Black angus cow...the calf may come out Black...but it is no longer a black angus cow.
The birmingham roller is perfomance bred first and foremost....and that is all that people are saying if you breed for color...then you will lose performance. The term Breed for Color means you pull a bird and breed it because it is a almond grizzle lace frill...with a just ok roll...and not a Red Check that rolls like a champion.
If you want to know the definition on the TRUE BIRMINGHAM ROLLER..read 131 pages of The Birmingham Roller Pigeon by William H. Pensom....that should give you the answer...if 131 pages does not give you the answer...well you have some issues beyond this site.
To all on this site...Thank you so much for all of your help. I am new at the hobby and I have an open mind. You need an open mind in this hobby because everyone does something a little different when raising there birds. All, the advice is still not enough! This is a great site!!
Paul
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
180 posts
Aug 26, 2004
5:05 PM
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Thanks Paul, now I am hungry for an Angus burger...lol. Great analogy by the way! Very enjoyable read.
Brian.
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Anonymous
Guest
Aug 26, 2004
6:03 PM
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Paul...LOL! That was a good one. Now I've got a question to follow your profound logic. Since the Birmingham Roller is referred to as such and is beyond contestation, and the Black Angus as well...are all other breeds of cattle "mongrels" or can we just call them cross-breeds? Good analogy!!!
Scott - way to go man! It's good to hear a success story about you, as your composure here in the forum leaves a lot of room for improvement. And I heard that you'd only had rollers for 6 years now, and you're off to a great start. Kudos to you brother! You're still wearing a diaper as far as I'm concerned. But keep doing your homework and spread the hobby as far as you possibly can. I would be so blessed as to receive a pair from your B Kit.
To thy own self be true!
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Mother lode lofts
114 posts
Aug 26, 2004
6:42 PM
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Anonymous I don't really know if your post was a compliment or a slam LOL or both. Yea I can be rough around the edges no doubt. And do have room for improvment no doubt about it.
Actually anonymous I've only had "these" birds for 7 years. Unfortanatly prior to that I was as lost as many here.
I think that I might being a little jumpy here though LOL and I had another post here that would have made things interesting and fun but after re-reading your post I think that I was to hasty and getting paronoid LOL.
Actualy that cock that Paul mentioned was out of a young bird team and out of one of my best pairs. While he was here I might have called it my B team though, it was well into the roll but still needed to polish up but was well worth giving as were the few others.
Scott
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Aug 26, 2004 7:56 PM
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fhtfire
41 posts
Aug 26, 2004
8:42 PM
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DUH!
What do you think a mongrel is...it is a cross breed!
This is out of the dictionary
\Mon"grel\, n. [Prob. shortened fr. mongrel, and akin to AS. mengan to mix, and E. mingle. See Mingle.] The progeny resulting from a cross between two breeds, as of domestic animals; anything of mixed breed. --Drayton.
\Mon"grel\, a. 1. (Zo["o]l.) Not of a pure breed.
2. Of mixed kinds; as, mongrel language.
Synonyms:
bastard, cross, crossbreed, cur, half blood, half-breed, Heinz 57, mixed breed, mixture, mule, mutt
So the answer is yes if you cross two breeds it is a mongrel!
So what is the problem...you said, are other cow breeds a mongrel...well if you mix them yes. A lab crossed with a dalmation is a mongrel. A black angus and a red angus cross is a mongrel. Hell that is just adding some color to the black angus...but it is still a mongrel. Is it just the word that pissed you off or what. Maybe Scott should have called colored birds mutts, or bastard cross. It sounds to me like the word mongrel pissed you off more then anything.
Hey Scott...maybe you can say that the rollers that are yellow are "one of mixed kinds" lol.
This is not brain surgery here.
The answer to your question is this....
purebred
adj : bred for many generation from member of a recognized breed or strain [ant: crossbred] n : a pedigreed animal of unmixed lineage; used especially of horses [syn: thoroughbred, pureblood]
So...No! Other BREEDS of cattle are not mogrels as long as they are pure...and a recognized breed! Obviously mixing a Texas long horn and a black angus is a mongrel...but the breeds seprate are "PUREBREDS"
You mix any breed of animal you get a mongrel...A Nubian goat with a la mancha goat...yes if you breed the two it will take like six generations of Breeding with pure la mancha to have that line pure again. But anything before that is a mongrel. Mongrel is a common term in the livestock arena.
I used to raise Dairy Goats and they are a perfect example. La Mancha goats have no earlobes...it almost looks like they have no ears....that is a big trait. Like the roll in a birmingham roller. If you breed a Nubian...big floppy ears with a la mancha...you will get these wierd looking half ears or (helicopter ears). Why would you breed a La Mancha with a Nubian...to richen up the milk of a La mancha...Nubians halve more Milk Fat....but in turn you lose the main characteristic of a Lamancha...no ear lobes. So in turn you are no longer breeding to the standard of a la mancha...but the milk will taste creamier. Well you may lose the main characteristic of the Roll in a roller but they will look creamier...but guess what.....they are no longer purebreds.....they are mongels...common slang in the breeding of livestock. I am not arguing anymore with this topic. The fact is that a mixed breed is a mongrel...Call the UC DAVIS school of vet medicine...they will say a mongrel is a cross breed. Ask a horse racer....mongrel.....it is just a word man! So my example of Cows and Goats...or hell Dogs is a true example of mixing breeds is true. Now if you breed that mongrel to a purebred for however many generations that science has proven that the blood is now pure again...well, even though it had been crossed 6 generations back...then it is no longer a mongrel. That is a fact...look it up!
Paul
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Anonymous
Guest
Aug 27, 2004
6:30 AM
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Paul, to follow that logic...everything is a mongrel. Based on the history posted by Mr. Monson (separate post), the Birmingham Roller is a mongrel. At what point can you call it a breed. At some point someone said, "Yep, now that's a Black Angus!". Same thing with the Birmingham. After countless generations of working with whatever birds you have, regardless of family, source, color, creed, or religion, if it presonifies the qualities in the BREED of which it is supposed to be...it is such! Not every black cow is a Black Angus - True. The Birmingham Roller was developed by a bunch of buys cross-breeding to isolate certain qualities that they focused on. Why can't you guys this is possible to do with "colored" birds as well.
Scott - it was a compliment - pure and simple. Whatever helps you sleep better at night.
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Anonymous
Guest
Aug 27, 2004
7:14 AM
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Paul: You wrote "Now if you breed that mongrel to a purebred for however many generations that science has proven that the blood is now pure again...well, even though it had been crossed 6 generations back...then it is no longer a mongrel. That is a fact...look it up!"
I'm surprised you're not catching gried over this one. If it's a fact, then suppose I used a Scandaroon to work on a magpie mark 20 years ago on a roller. Today, if it flies in the conventional Birmingham ways, I can call it a Birmingham Roller????
Scott, Brian? You boys got anything to say about this????
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
186 posts
Aug 27, 2004
11:43 AM
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Since you asked, man that would be one unbelievably ugly freakin' pigeon..lol. If you crossed your Pensom roller with a Scandaroon for the magpie mark (which is available in a far less ugly pigeon by the way) and then took the offspring from that mating back to your pure pensoms, then took the offspring from that, back to your pure pensoms, again, and again until you are at or near 15/16, and you had the magpie marking too, then you have successfully pulled off what very few have and I would consider it a Birmingham provided it looked like one and performed to the standards of one and underwritten oath, or a friendly handshake, you swear those were the methods of your breeding program. I say cool, you did it. Problem is most who breed for color don't do it that way, they put F1 x F1, etc..selecting only for the color and breeding in such ways. I made mention of an analogy to Steve a few nights ago when he asked me how I would best describe how to go about something like this. I said its easy, walk up to what you want, take it and put it in your pocket and walk the same path back home. If you take side streets and colorful scenic views to get back home, chances are you will never get there, and if you do, it will be by chance rather than by dedication to breeding for performance..and they happen to have a dominant color factor of interest. Make sense?
Brian.
Last Edited by MCCORMICKLOFTS on Aug 27, 2004 11:45 AM
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Mother lode lofts
123 posts
Aug 27, 2004
11:58 AM
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Actually anonymous I thought that I would give you the benifit of doubt. Sure is easy to take stabs when you don't post your name isn't it. there's a little offer that I threw out there. Of course you would'nt be interested in it would you. should be like taking candy from a baby in diapers should'nt it. talks cheap buddy, lets see what you have.
Scott Campbell
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Anonymous
Guest
Aug 27, 2004
12:13 PM
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Scott,
I don't raise blue-checks in numbers, so I don't need anymore at this point in time. But I appreciate the offer. And you don't want to see what I've got. Ain't nothin' but a bunch of mongrels anyway. Direct descendants from Scandaroons, English Magpies, Kormorner Tumblers (that's where I got my roll from), and a splash of Budepests (I like a shorter beak on a bird).
Come on now! Stop being such a fussy butt. Can you please address the question that Brian was so kind to answer?
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guest
Guest
Aug 27, 2004
2:08 PM
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Come on Scott, I am in the process of breeding my Parlors to some of Jack's homers. The ones that come into the roll I am going to sell as Birmingham rollers. I will also fly them in comp and kick your butt!! Hey another thing if you catch that Mountain lion we should breed it to one of Tammy's cats and sell the offspring as Bobcats. I am sure that anon will be the first in line to buy one.LOL kevin
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Mother lode lofts
128 posts
Aug 27, 2004
2:52 PM
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Just as I thought anonymous, here's my E-mail, We can take this off the list if you would like to talk about the definition of a breed and how breeds come to be.
motherlodelofts@netzero.com
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Aug 27, 2004 2:54 PM
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Mother lode lofts
129 posts
Aug 27, 2004
3:09 PM
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Keven had a buddy here last night trying to catch that big cat the same way I catch air sharks. No luck
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K.Naylor
2 posts
Aug 27, 2004
3:12 PM
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I bet that if you fell down the hill again and screamed like a stuck pig when you broke your leg it would show up!!LOL If you don't get rid of it before Christopher and I stay there he will kill it with his BB gun!LOL
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nicksiders
77 posts
Aug 28, 2004
9:44 AM
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A Birmingham Roller is a mongrel as well as the Black Angus. We just try not to make em MORE mongrel than they already are......................is that it?
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
199 posts
Aug 28, 2004
11:28 AM
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Nick, no that is not it, but I think most of the folks are done with this subject for a while.
Brian.
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Thor
9 posts
Aug 29, 2004
11:04 PM
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Hi newbie Mike,
Your answer has been answered many times. It seems like you already have something in mind and won't except any other explanation. Words can't difine any Birmingham Roller... if you want to know what one truly is, then I would suggest you plan out a cross country trip around the Best-most consistant Flier in your STATE.
Once you see that one bird that just simply 'FUZZes' out during a performance, then and only then will you truly understand what a Birmingham Roller is.
Of course there will be difinitions of what a Birmingham Roller is on paper... but seeing is believing Mike.
Just a thought!
Thor
P.S. Patience is everything in this hobby Mike. Join a Roller club and visit the TOP fliers as many times as your time allows you to.
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?rollers?
Guest
Aug 30, 2004
2:40 PM
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I am brand new to this site. my membership should be in the mail so you`ll be seeing me again. I am the redneckhippie15.
I have been rasing pigeons off and on for a while but it has usually been for pleasure instead of performance. As I read further into the depths of the beast I learn not only are the birds I now own supposed to fly as a group but also roll as one too. there are twizzles and twists and rolls and swoops and flops. off wing rolls and perfect flips.
At first I did`nt know one from the other but after a bit of study I have learned that an off wing flip is bad in competetion but better than a no flip.outbirds are outlaws and a twizzle would be a cool thing to see.I have one bird that tanks and one that is an off winger but the others are right on the money.
Having only six birds for now I kinda think that culling is out of the question and I like to watch them fly and roll with the same gusto that I am sure they would in competetion. My brother has promised to get me some more birds.he has a friend who raises rollers for show and let me have the six I have now to fly. they are still young and really have come together as a kit.I have two white ones that get four or five in a row before they pull out. I think they are nestmates and they fly together well.
Anyway the point to this ramble is there are those among you who do this for fun and really would like to learn from the posts on this site. this is my first experience with rollers and they really are a special breed.
Any comments or advice would be appreciated.
thanks all
rnh
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
209 posts
Aug 30, 2004
2:51 PM
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When I was younger and started flying rollers, I was happy to see them do anything. One time I remember truly believing I had seen my birds do a full turn (all of them rolling at once) and for years believed it was the most awesome thing I have ever seen. That was because there were no other roller flyers in my area, so I hadn't seen anything better. To me, these were the best. Many, many years later as I returned to roller flying I saw some good kits before I ever got birds, and it was like a totally different world. It is apparent you are more than just backyard enjoying your birds. If you can describe the actions of each bird you are flying, you will no doubt develop a much more advanced standard of appreciation. I know that as every year passes I still learn something and raise the bar of my expectations another notch. I know this has been beat to death by just about anyone who has offered advice, but it is as true as it gets....you need to get out and see some good kits to understand what the potential is of a roller or a team of them. It will really change the way you look at your current birds. I can still remember a number of the kits and individual rollers I saw that raised the bar of my expectations. I think once you have seen one of those breath-taking kits, your approach will probably change to suit what you appreciate about the birds. Good luck and welcome.
Brian.
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rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
158 posts
Aug 30, 2004
9:41 PM
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Mike, there is an old saying, "when the student is ready, the teacher will appear". Also, when a certain judical figure was asked to describe what is pornography, all he could say was "I know it when I see it".
I think the BR is much like that. Apparently you have not seen any yet...FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Last Edited by rollerpigeon on Aug 30, 2004 9:42 PM
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Thor
15 posts
Sep 01, 2004
2:33 PM
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Hi MH or Redneckhippie15,
Sounds like you really need to visit some Roller Fliers in your area. I am curious where you got your birds from and what sparked your interested in the breed. It sounds like you have been observing the heck out of these pigeons of yours and that is a step in the right direction.
It sounds like your pigeons are just tumbling at the moment. Tumbling is the term use to explained anything that executes flips or twizzling actions, no matter what breed it is. I know of guys who have been raising this breed for acouple of years and still call a flip a roll, so you are not alone. (grin)
I have a clip on my site which shows a descent roll. Here is the address to the clip. It is a roll most guys will not breed for but it has been the best quality video stream I can do. http://www.geocities.com/khaoslovecas/page.htm
The first step young rollers will show is - tail riding. Tail riding is seen when a roller opens up his wings and just falls downward for some distance.
As a beginner, anything that tumbles is worth watching. Keep on tracking and you should be fine. I still recommend everyone to visit as many roller fliers as possible. Support your hobby! Once see that one bird or that one kit that simply blows your mind, you will never settle for anything less. Until then, everything is a champion. (grin)
Education is everything in this breed,
Thor
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stiff
50 posts
Sep 27, 2008
5:37 PM
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Anonymouse I recieved birds from scott. He had to send them to me first he had to get the paper work for the birds to get vet checked then he had to get a crate to ship the birds he had to modify the crate then he had to drive them to the airport. And guess what he gave the birds to me at no cost. I paid for the vet check and the airfair thats it and i am one happy camper. Oh yah he had to send them Hawaii. Clayton AKA GlassG
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2948 posts
May 15, 2009
5:27 PM
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I enjoy reading this post I got a laugh out of Scott remarks on top when Mike got piss for not answering his ?"Give us a minute here Mike it isnt easy typing with two fingers and besides as I was just kicking out a kit.....
lol...
.but I like the way you guys handle this especially MCCORMICKLOFTS good post ...
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Ralph.
The greatest use of your life is so you live your life so that the use of your life will outlive your life, In other words what you going to leave behind legacy or Dust....
Last Edited by on May 15, 2009 6:02 PM
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Scott
2146 posts
May 15, 2009
5:55 PM
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Yea, funny how many retards have come and gone,and only us dummies have stayed LOL
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Windjammer Loft
782 posts
May 15, 2009
7:17 PM
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Personnely, Anonymous, SKL, Mike or what ever you call yourself I wouldn't offer you any help or answer any of your post strickly because of your arrogant attitude. This site can do without people like you...
Fly High and Roll On
Paul
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Hector Coya
486 posts
May 15, 2009
8:52 PM
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Who freeken cares what the defenition of the true B/R is,just enjoy your birds and dont worrie about what the other guy is breeding. Hector Coya
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The more i know mankind,the more i love my Dog,
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jnyce
721 posts
May 15, 2009
9:35 PM
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this is a dam shame scott has been getting on peoples nerves since 2004 lol................well atleast he is consistant
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jerry t
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macsrollers
72 posts
May 15, 2009
10:07 PM
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Anonymous You don't want any answers. You just want to hide behind an anonymous name so you can attack those who participate on this site. It is a business for Tony, but he uses the business to support this site that is free to us. Do you think he is getting rich. $50 a bird isn't unreasonable. Have you bought any of his birds to see what they do in the air? Has Tony ever asked you for a penny to participate on his site? No, he just asks for support by offering products and birds at a reasonable and competitive price. People like Scott are very opinionated and I definitely don't agree with his style at times, but I don't hide behind a anonymous post and use vulgar language to attack those that I don't agree with. You will never find answers on this site because your intention of use of the site isn't in the right place. You don't have the character to be on this site. Respect isn't about agreeing with other's opinions. It is honoring their right to express their opinion- as long as they don't go the direction your choose by using trash talk to express that opinion. Go away. To the rest, Hector is right. If you enjoy what your are doing with your birds then don't worry. Actually you have found the true defintion of the Roller hobby- having fun!
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
403 posts
May 16, 2009
4:28 AM
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Whoa Don, look at the dates on the posts. This Bozo has been gone for 5 years. Probably why Tony doesn't allow Anonymous posts anymore. Actually I thought Scott and Brian handled themselves very well. There is a tactful side to Scott after all. Well done boys
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
Last Edited by on May 16, 2009 4:28 AM
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