Anonymous
Guest
Aug 26, 2004
7:10 AM
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With all this talk of "Birmingham Rollers", how do any of us know, for absolutely sure, thatw e have true Birmingham Rollers? The guys who attack the "Colored" birds say that they are mongrels or crossbreds. To those who do this, prove to us all that you have true, uncontaminated Birmingham Rollers that have NEVER been outcrossed to anything else in the last 50 years. Proof is not just saying you have them. I want proof that would stand up in a court of law. Can anyone prove this to us all?
And, while you're at it, please also prove to us beyond a shadow of a doubt that the colored birds are, in fact, crossbreeds.
The challengs is yours if you choose to accept it.
Tom
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Anonymous
Guest
Aug 26, 2004
9:59 AM
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I can't...
Regretfully,
William H. Pensom
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
170 posts
Aug 26, 2004
1:06 PM
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I have pedigrees that will go back to birds in England, some directly past Pensom and to Shackleton. Will that hold up in court? Who gives a shit? I sure don't. Would that justify a bird or a family of birds, having pedigrees to prove it? To some it might. To you, probably not. You are just taking a side for the fun of it with no true interest one way or another. The proof isn't in the paperwork or the individual principal. It is in the air, PUT UM UP OR SHUT UP! Where are the winning kits of colored rollers? Not guy who won one one time when everyone else had bad luck, show me a winner who does so with colored birds, that answers the question for that is the bottom line. Someday I might be that guy, or my traditional rollers will still be dominating the kits.
Brian.
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Bluesman
31 posts
Aug 26, 2004
1:40 PM
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Well. I have followed these post very closely and tried to keep my mouth shut.I have every color(which is only 3)and just about every factor & modifier there is in Rollers.I had posted on some earlier post and got stomped on by the same ones that are still stomping and calling other peoples birds mongrels.I don,t fly in competition and never will.I have color birds that will roll with the best and I enjoy them very much.I still have not heard what a Birmingham color is suppose to be for sure.I just dug out my book "The Birmingham Roller Pigeon" by Bill Pensom and reread Chapter 7.Now to all you fellows that call my color birds Mongrels Please read this chapter and then call Bill Pensom a liar because they didn,t exist.
David Strait
Mountain View Lofts
Where Color is a Plus but Roll is a Must
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Anonymous
Guest
Aug 26, 2004
2:33 PM
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Brian,
A pedigree is just a piece of paper. Can you prove that it is accurate and that the birds are from Birmingham Englad thus proving the are true "Birmingham Rollers"? Didn't think so.
Roy D.
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Bman
Guest
Aug 26, 2004
2:50 PM
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That's easy! If they coo with a British accent then they are definitely true Birminghams. All others should be culled!
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Anonymous
Guest
Aug 26, 2004
3:04 PM
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Hey Brian,
Flying colroed birds one time when EVERY ONE else was having a bad day is the best you can come up with? Sure sounds lame to me. Better go and check Jay Yandle's and James Turner's fly records. The both have kicked ass with their colored birds. I bet it is really embarassing to get your ass whupped up on by mongrels!!
Roy D.
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
174 posts
Aug 26, 2004
3:41 PM
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Roy if you would have read my post and others, you would have seen that I don't care for pedigrees beyond the third or fourth generation. Its just fan fare to me. And I have yet to get my ass whomped by a kit of colored rollers. In fact, there are only a few left around here with any "colored" rollers in their kit, and guess what Mr. Mercer, mine is one of them, when I can get one of them to perform to the level of my real Birminghams. You might want to clean your foot off before you put it in your mouth..lol. Talk is cheap bro and I've said it before and will say it yet again...the proof is in the air. We can debate this crap till Pensom and Neible come riding down the path of resurrection, the same will hold true then as it does now...look up, I hope you can see the answer is above you, not on a piece of paper or in the endless postings on this subject.
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Anonymous
Guest
Aug 26, 2004
3:58 PM
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From "Breeding The Birmingham Roller Pigeon" by William H. Pensom (1968): When a fancier has established a stud of stable, high-velocity spinning pigeons, his best plan in the future will be to choose mates as they look on the ground rather than by selecting them out of the air. Mates should possess similar qualities, especially as regards expression of character, the only compromise coming from bodily make-up. Since color or shades of color are closely allied to character, it is to our advantage to give much consideration in this direction.
Man, I'm so confused and torn...I think I should pay a visit to a grain elevator and see what possibilities the commons have to offer me. Argh!!!!
Can someone please consolidate all the theories of today and publish them? Then we can throw away all the writings from 30 years ago...along with the thought that TRUE bloodline still exists as it did in Birmingham, England, and start raising the new and improved rollers in the colors that everyone claims to perform just as well as the next person's....
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
175 posts
Aug 26, 2004
4:13 PM
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What Pensom was talking about in that qoute is something that only experience can teach, and still, many still can't see it. I know of only a few people who can pic a bird simply by looking at it in a show pen. But if you have an inbred family as is such with what Pensom had coupled with the blessing of intuition, you can see common traits in your birds and associate them together or use them as a tool. By color he wasn't referring to how pretty they were, but the alliance of specific colors and their association with character. For example, many recessive reds will have soft feather and a more subdued character. In many lofts these are valuable to mate to a blue check which commonly has a stronger character and good feather. Ash reds usually have the best feather are also considered in such ways. When you mate like to like, you want to make the BEST like to the BEST like, to reproduce that likeness which as he eludes to many times in his writing, brings forth the character he was seeking in his birds. It is often futile to try and describe what he meant because many simply cannot see what he was talking about it. Some of you might have had someone over who while looking over your birds, saw one and said, that is a great pigeon, and chances are it was one of your best. That is the kind of insight that some people like Pensom have, and can with reasonable certainty, pair their birds up according to their expression and have a good idea of what the results will be.
Brian.
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Mother lode lofts
113 posts
Aug 26, 2004
4:38 PM
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Brian I have a feeling that you are going way over some of these guys heads.
Scott
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Bluesman
32 posts
Aug 26, 2004
5:12 PM
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Brian.Since you know what Pensom meant in what he wrote what did he mean in Chapter 7 ? David Strait
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
181 posts
Aug 26, 2004
8:52 PM
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David, my assumption of what Pensom was saying in chapter 7 was his attempt to describe, in detail, the colors and marking of Birmingham Rollers of that time. More precisely, it appears he was parlaying how important it was for the forefathers of the Birmingham to know every aspect of each roller they flew, including color and markings. That should not be confused with what I was mentioning in the above post which was how to use color and character as a breeding tool. Satisfactory answer?
Brian
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Thor
8 posts
Aug 26, 2004
11:30 PM
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Quit already with the colors. I'm no W. H. Pensom but if I understood right in his book 'The Birmingham Roller Pigeon', he wrote about Birmingham Rollers and did not intend anything in his book to go onto the cross bred we have today. Anyone who takes his writings and uses it to justify these new cross breds are just fooling themselves. Everything W. H. Pensom wrote in his book was directed toward true Birmingham Roller.
I can see now why W. H. Pensom was so picky in the guys he trusted (to pick birds from). It is apparent now how big cross breeding has become.
OH, of course color birds can roll. I'll be the first to amitt this if anyone hasn't. I know this is so because there is a guy not too far away from me that I hold high regards to who flys very good color Rollers. He has won his share of local club flys. His birds has been a work in progress now for over 15 years. If I recall, he stated it took him a good 7 years before his birds were where he wanted them to be. I think he's color birds are where they are at because he picks them out of the air and is one of the MOST knowledgable roller men I know. He'll be the first to amitt they aren't the best but with his knowledge of the breed, the Birmingham Roller, has helped him maintain a descent color family. Remember, he knows they aren't Birmingham Roller but color birds.
Stop it with the color birds. If you have it, please do us all a favor and pick them out of the air. I would only like to ask one favor and that is to do your research on these color birds background.
There are all sorts of Rollers and Tumblers. I remember not too long along, Show Rollers were once claimed to be Birmingham Rollers and they were in the beginning. Since it went towards the Show Pen and not for it's ability to roll, it never could only hold itself in Birmingham Roller in name. To add insult to injury, they were crossed with other breeds. Now if I recall, some of the Show Roller fanciers are trying to set it as a breed of it's own because the Show Roller is now recognized as a different breed... and it should be.
The problem with the color birds of today is that a small percentage of outstanding Birmingham Roller fliers are side tracking projects to get birds of Rare Color to roll. An example is, In the video 'Simple Genetics' by James Turner and Tony Roberts, these two guys show how to breed such birds. I'm not sure if it is a good thing or a bad thing but rolling has been put into cross breds. It just takes a lot of hard work. What I don't get is why aren't they calling these cross breds Modena Rollers or Oriental Frill Rollers or etc? If you are crossing breeding and reading this post, can you please label these new creations as something else, it'll be less confusing to the new guys.
Thor
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Anonymous
Guest
Aug 27, 2004
4:39 AM
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Thor,
Since you started again on the whole crossbreed thing, better read what Mccormock Lofts said in an earlier post:
"Regarding the common history of Birminghams, Dutch Tumblers, Mags, Comps, Tipplers and Wests, I think it's also likely that Tipplers received an extra infusion of foreign blood from the Middle East at some point between 1850 and 1920. Pakistani, Indian, and Turkish high-flying
breeds exist, many of which have the "light print" distinguishing features of light print English Flying Tipplers. Either the English blood got to Pakistan or the Pakistani blood got into the English Tipplers. India (and perhaps Pakistan?) was a British colony or protectorate during the 19th Century, and British soldiers were
continuously being conveyed to and from India to man the outposts Britain maintained there. By the way, although many suppose that Birmingham Rollers as we know them today have existed for centuries, there is reason to question this
supposition. While flying tumblers of various kinds -- ranging from flippers to deep rollers -- probably have existed for centuries."
According to this, they are all cross breeds. and note that I never said a word about color.
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Anon
Guest
Aug 27, 2004
4:58 AM
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So? What is your point?
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
185 posts
Aug 27, 2004
9:32 AM
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Well actually, if you want to go that direction Anon, pretty much every breed that isn't a Rock Dove is a crossbred, or mongrel..that is of course, if you want to use logic in that manner. That is kind of like saying the end of the world is near, well ya, it will happen, maybe not in our life time, but it will, therefore, it could be considered near.
Here's the point some of missing, and I am not debating, this is just fact. A breed is made over a period of time, using whatever gene pool the creators see fit. The source at that point is irrelevant for the most part, as the end product will be a genetic manifestation of chosen traits and features..thus, creating a breed. One this is established and the genetic characteristics set forth, if one crossbreds, or shall we say, mates one of the purebred rollers to say a opal racing homer. That is a crossbreed, the whole point this entire week we have been discussing this. It's not the color, the lies, or the insults, it is the simple fact that if a person crosses a roller from the true origin to another breed it is a crossbreed. The only way that the future offspring can return to a similar state as it's roller grandparent is to selectively choose from the performance in the air, then breed it to a pure roller. After successive generations, I believe it is 7-8 generations breeding to pure, you will have a 99.9 percent bird of pure ancestry to which direction it was bred. The problem with many colors that are recessive or sex-linked is they don't allow the hobbyist very many options, other than breeding from a bird because of its color alone. A prime example of this is if you look to anyone flying colored birds, they are either indigo-based or dominant opal-based...both dominants which means the creator will raise many the first time, can fly them, and hopefully have an option to choose from. This chain continues on each generation, while most of the time, the owner doesn't have to worry about loosing the color.
The bottom line is not whether pure is right and crossbreds are wrong. The most important thing is that people understand the difference between the two, why people chose one or the other, the benefits of either, and most importantly, how to cultivate pure stock as well as how to cross for a color, and use ethical roller pigeon breeding practices to return many generations later with an always improving product. There are shit pigeons at everyone's house, regardless of their background or color.
Brian.
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Anonymous
Guest
Aug 27, 2004
10:16 AM
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Brian,
Good post! I like the "End of the World" bit. Well put, and I think it's one we can take to the bank. So now we've got Birmingham Rollers (an established breed), and colored rollers, not yet a breed of it's own so to speak, because the perception is that people are constently crossing other breeds into it, therefore it's not breeding true to anything other than more cross-breeds. Forget the fact that colored birds roll, which many have stated here (competition and color people). So what do we call these? They're still clearly not welcome to discussion, rather discrimination on this site, as it's purely dominated by those that hold the breed of "Birmingham Roller" in the untmost esteem. Not a bad thing...just the perception of us color guys.
Indigo, Opal, Reduced, Stencil, Milky - just an FYI from a color guy - these are all Factors (not colors). They are ALWAYS based on either Ash Red, Blue, or Brown (one of the "Hard" colors).
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
188 posts
Aug 27, 2004
12:24 PM
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Color people of the site, raise your hand if you know what a factor is?...lol. Or how about a modifier? Keep in mind Anon, only a few have had harsh words for the color talk, and more than a few who defend color, or just don't like scott and steve, or me for that matter, equally bark back. It's just opinions, some folks are just better than others at putting their thoughts to words. I'm sure there are many others who might have a reasonable opinion as well who just aren't talkers. If only two people out of ten sitting around a campfire, are the only ones talking, that's a boring campfire, might as well go home. But get everyone chiming in, that is fun, and everyone might learn something when the wood runs out...most importantly, don't take things personally.
Brian.
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Anonymous
Guest
Aug 27, 2004
12:48 PM
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Whoa Big B! I didn't take nuttin' personally!!! I was just sitting around the campfire trying to put some facts out there for people to read and latch on to. Such and such are factors based on a different, hard, color. Should I start another thread for that?
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Anonymous
Guest
Aug 27, 2004
1:00 PM
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Brian,
Don't tell me to "not take it persona". I take it very personal when you and your little circle of friends insult my friends like David S. and James Turner in order to make yourselves feel better. If it keeps up, I will turn this site in and you will have to be witnesses for Tony in court when he is defending himself against a large Slander suit. You ready for that?
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Steve Sissel
Guest
Aug 27, 2004
1:36 PM
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Anon,
Whahahaaaaa!!
Your an idiot!
Take that to court!!
Steve
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Anonymous
Guest
Aug 27, 2004
1:40 PM
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Thanks Steve,
Keep them coming, I'm printing them out as you guys go. Trust me, I've become good friends with my attorney over the past few years. He's actually encouraging you to continue with your remarks. It helps make the judge's decision a bit easier when it's in writing...
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Steve S.
Guest
Aug 27, 2004
1:56 PM
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LOL LOL LOL
Does the word FRIVOLOUS mean anything to you?
LOL
Bring something in front of a Commom Pleas Court Judge like this and he would make you pay an idiot tax and dis-bar the attorney that brought it.
LOL
Steve
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
192 posts
Aug 27, 2004
2:20 PM
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I have one question, where is the insult? I didn't hear or read anyone insult David or Turner. I have birds that come from Turner, the long way around, so my comments are based on my observations of those birds. Don't like it, well, then you have other issues you might need a prescription to work out. Would it absolutely kill you to put a name with your comments? Let me give you a tip, click on "login in", then enter a name and a password, then click continue, and at least we can know you by something other than Anonymous.
Brian.
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rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
147 posts
Aug 27, 2004
2:20 PM
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Hey Anon, Guess what? You are now BANNED from this site. Don't come back. You are NOT welcome here. You know who you are. Tony Chavarria
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nicksiders
78 posts
Aug 28, 2004
9:50 AM
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I guess if you call your bird a Birmingham Roller it is a Birmingham Roller............the only way the bird can speak for himself is to perform like a Birmingham Roller. Once that happens you will know you have a Birmingham Roller. Don't care what color it is.................hmmm
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guest
Guest
Sep 10, 2004
9:27 AM
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OK, thre is only one sure way to find a true Birmingham roller .. First, pick up tail gently..you will now see a round circle,...on the rim of the circle it will be stamped .......Birmingham...... Teeeeeeeeeeee Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
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RussianRoller
8 posts
Mar 19, 2007
2:31 PM
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Does anyone have any Crossbreeds? If you do, please email me at RussianRoller@hotmail.com
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Skylineloft
7 posts
Mar 19, 2007
2:51 PM
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I cant believe that you guys hide behind the name Anonymous. At least Brian has the balls to put his name to what he writes.....
RIGHT OR WRONG....
Ray Fisher
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Missouri-Flyer
372 posts
Mar 19, 2007
2:54 PM
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what a freekin stupid ass thread! Needs to be locked!
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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916birds
24 posts
Mar 19, 2007
2:57 PM
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Tony,
I believe that it is time u step in and say somthing.....Because if i say somthing also then its going to sound like we are all a bunch of very old little kids.....
Vu-
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REEDM
10 posts
Mar 19, 2007
2:58 PM
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This tread was dormant since Sep 2004. Igor, looking for crossbred pigeons is bringing this crap back to the front.
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Great rollers come from great rollermen,
great rollermen fly in competitions.
Anyone can fly a good kit of rollers by accident,
great rollermen can fly a good kit on fly day.
Mitch
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motherlodelofts
1597 posts
Mar 19, 2007
3:01 PM
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The idiots come and go,and the dummies like me just keep plugging along trying to get (2) hats LOL.
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 19, 2007 3:02 PM
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Missouri-Flyer
374 posts
Mar 19, 2007
3:06 PM
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LMAO..Ur getting close to that 2nd one Scott...Better hope he ordered 2 different colors..LOL
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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rollerman132
84 posts
Mar 19, 2007
3:07 PM
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Who is this guy and what the F*ck is he tring to start?
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3757
125 posts
Mar 19, 2007
6:35 PM
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Brian - You are 100 percent correct but don't waste your time with this individual!
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C.J.
1007 posts
Mar 19, 2007
6:53 PM
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If you don't post to these threads they will quickly die. Therefore my suggestion is if you don't want to be lead into this crap don't post. If you post then live with it. The beauty with this site is everyone is entitled to their opinion roght or wrong, popular or not. You are never going to convert another person so be adults and agree to disagree. If every topic that was controversial was shut down this site would not be as popular as it is or as informative.
C.J.
Site Moderator
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1270 posts
Mar 19, 2007
8:20 PM
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LaRon, this was from three years ago....lol. check out the dates...lol.
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3757
126 posts
Mar 19, 2007
9:22 PM
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Brian - Cool. See what old age does to you - You loose track of dates and time...lol
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916birds
27 posts
Mar 19, 2007
9:35 PM
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lols scott.....----
that means by the time i get a hat, all of the special ones with the doo doo on will be gone. i just only need to have about 900 + more postings.....
Vu-
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