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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
COLOR BALANCING
COLOR BALANCING
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George Ruiz
10 posts
Aug 28, 2004
9:21 AM
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iN THE PAST I HAVE ALWAYS TRIED TO MATE MY BIRDS DARK TO LIGHT COLORS .
CAN ANYONE TELL ME ALL THE HARD COLORS.
ALSO THE SOFT COLORS
MY BIRDS COLORS ARE BLACK ,WHITE, REDCHEX, BLUE CHEX,
BLUE BAR ,RED BAR, ASH RED,GRIZZLES,
THANKS
GEORGE
Last Edited by George Ruiz on Aug 28, 2004 9:34 AM
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Phantom1
11 posts
Aug 28, 2004
10:02 AM
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Hi George,
According to the basic genetic principles, Ash Red, Blue/Black, and Brown are the 3 Hard Colors. Factors such as Grizzle on top of these colors doesn't make them "soft" colors. For example an Ash-Red-Check Grizzle is still an Ash Red-Check. Also you Blacks are just Blues with a Spread Factor. So in reading the colors you have, you technically have all hard colors.
George Mason once stated that he would never mate a Blue-Check to a Blue-Check. I can't remember where I read it. But you probably know your family of birds better than anyone else and I'd encourage you to make the best decisions for you. I've read post among post that state you need to be selective by chosing your birds from the air. Pensom stated that pairing birds according to their compatibility from not only the air but the way they compare in the hand and next to each other also, is important.
Yours in the hobby,
Eric
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Keith
5 posts
Aug 28, 2004
11:11 AM
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Here is a link that will explain the theory.
http://www.rpslofts.com/geninfo.html
Keith
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Mother lode lofts
139 posts
Aug 28, 2004
1:34 PM
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George, Pensom hits on this pretty heavily in his book, Due to all the new guys here I'll go ahead put it here word for word. This has nothing to do with the prior color debate and I have found it valuable information that runs in line with own experiance with "My" family of birds.
With my two finger typing abilty the entire chaptor needs to be read "of the Ideal" and should be read so that the context isn't of the message isn't lost
Basicly the first part of the chaptor points out many things that play into the caractor of the Birmingham Roller including as he put's it "colour" and it relates here to your question on color balacing.
again this has "NOTHING TO DUE WITH THE BREEDING FOR COLOR" this has only to do with hard and soft "colours" and how they affect the character of the birds. The charactor being the mental glue that holds these athletes together.
First I'm going to start with this.
"In our endeavour to produce first class spinners, we have to be quite sure we understand correctly the qaulifications of the true spinner and apply this knowledge to the stock we have at our disposal"
Ok here's the rest as it relates to your question and where he dwells into the aspect of as he put it "colour" and how it plays into the charactor of the Breed. this is word for word so that the contents of the message remain in context.
During my experiance I have tried all kinds of matings in my attempt to defeat nature,exspecially as regards colour. It is certain that colour cannot be cultivated without the decided loss in the qaulity of deep spinning.
To clarify my findings,so far as colour goes, I refer to Reds,yellows and whites,and the combinations of the same,as soft colours,and denoting weakness of character as well. Blue chequers,Red Chequers and duns, I call the hard colours and which I believe are indicative of stronger character. It is among these latter coloured birds that we find the most stabilised spinners, where as among the softer colours we find the unstable spinner. By stablilised I mean birds which are able to spin and perform with a frequency of about once a minute at least,during a flight of about twenty minutes duration. a lesser stabalised is one that is to frequent in it's Performance and a doubtful flier in consequence, and also easily lost. Birds of all colours and pattens roll the same as birds of varying types; but, usually if we do possess a yellow or soft coloured bird of high merit,it is generally bred from colours of a stronger pigmitation than that of which it illistrates,being therefore ,an impure colour.
In such cases as these there are certain values which are relative to the harder colours and the use of them in crossing with the harder colour become's invaluable. Color values are very closely related to character, and when understood they necessaraly become a guide to the breeder when deciding mating problems."
He then bounces back on to the topic on page 54, again keep in mind that these are how the soft colours relate to the hard, there are some things in here that may not be "politicaly correct" and these writings are based around performace only.
In Rollers we have a colour problem, for while all colours and patterns roll perfectly we cannot breed for correct spinning and colour at the same time, if we continue to breed for color at the same time we lose the finer qaulitys of the spin. and if we inbreed the softer colors such as Red,yellow and pure white,we attain a condidion of overdevelopment. (ok now he's going to tie it in) On the other hand if we constantly breed for more vigorous or darker colors we obtain the condition of more flying verses good rolling.
My experiance has taught me that the best all round spinners come in the Blue check pattern, with Red Chec and dun close up.
Since close breeding has to be indulged in, it is to be expected that one color will run through the strain and ultimately these basic Blue colors will predominate, this is the ultimate condition that cannot be avoided.
it is significant that in persuit of the highest qaulity Rollers all fanciers will end up with these patterns.
(now that is interesting,and there are many here and overseas that would highly disagree with this and I believe that some of it is due to conditions that most are flown under,Pensom was under the Blue skys of S. Calif where blues show thier premium as far as illusion,while the area of say, England, it's over cast and white flighted birds prevail and the again the illusion that white flighted birds can give you under overcast skies,in other words the more they blend with the sky background the better they look. Or it may just be as simple as that in particlar lines this does not hold true)
(Now at this point I my instincs tell me that I should'nt go on as Pensom is now getting aways from the roll verses character)
Breeding for markings is right out,for by doing one would produce rollers in only in name.
(and the same can be said for short working birds,or deep sloppy birds or any bird that doesn't have qaulity)
I am of coarse referring to the ultimate in a high qaulity strain which is a result of a lifetime experiance,and when a fancier can pick and choose just a few of of his birds to produce the minimum number of ideal spinners to meet his own requirments.
For a fancier to breed birds of a color and marking to meet his taste he would naturally have to breed a lot.
in fact he would have to breed more than he can manage. It is possible to breed any color and marking but the ratio of good birds produced would be extreamly small. This is the differnce between a succesful strain for the ideal spinning and the persuit of colorful pigeons.
(this holds can hold true in any family that is not properly selected. I think that the talant of the breeder plays a large roll here. Or maybe he did stay on topic and what is meant is if your breeding selection took you too far towards the weaker character or to far towards the stronger charactor that you would end up in this position)
(Good stuff, but it also needs to be noted that he also says that some will have a differant opinion, and that the Birmingham is not bred to make up a number in a busy kit or it also will be a roller in name only !!! I look at it this way when it comes to my birds,first they have to be an individual before they are put in a team,and is why the current comp. rules have a standard (that being the judges) in place and reward the true rollers. He also makes mention that those breeding for colorful birds keep's the breed livly in color)
Now here's my opinion on how it plays in with "my" birds.
I find that he is right on the money as the hard spin comes from the hard colors, the soft colors in this family are Rec.Red and the the Res.Red mottles ,the rec red mottles dend to be the hotter, this is where I draw my heat,that doesn't mean that I "have" to put the rec on the checkers as it is there allready but my stock loft always has a few, I truelly believe that if I purged my family of these that I would be flying stiffs. Same as if I bred towards the straight heat I am positive that the birds would just deterorate. Of coarse there are exceptions to this. It seems that the washed out looking Rec Reds that have the blue showing don't have the raw heat that many (not all) of the deep colored Rec Reds have.
Scott Campbell
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Aug 28, 2004 2:53 PM
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George Ruiz
11 posts
Aug 28, 2004
1:50 PM
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Thanks Scott I just wanted to know more about hard and soft colors so that I dont keep breeding hard to hard then my birds will fly like homers(stiff).
will that happen ? in the past I did breed two blacks together and the birds rolled fine they just took a little longer coming into the roll .
the family takes around 4 to 5 months to roll and the blacks took 6 months to spin.
Thanks George
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Mother lode lofts
140 posts
Aug 28, 2004
2:01 PM
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george the bulk of my matings are hard color mating. Of either Blue or dark checks, but they will also throw Rec. Red. Basicly George "all" I know is "my" family of birds and there certainly is nothing written in stone 100 percent of the time. I also have a side of the family that never throws Rec red that has good frequency. But if it ever stiffens up I know what to dip into to put it back.
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Phantom1
14 posts
Aug 28, 2004
2:14 PM
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Hey George!
Though I am not a competition flyer, I would just like to re-epmhasize that you're going to know your birds best. If you find that your checks are coming in to the roll sooner, and this is something you want them to do, then keep doing what works for you. There really isn't, I don't think, any shame in breeding two blue-checks together. In fact, I do it myself. The young turn out just fine. Those are of the Mason bloodline . You've got your own family going, and as such, I think it's important to ilosate the qualities that you're breeding for. If I read through the "rep tape" of what Mr. Pensom is writing, that's the message that I get. For competition flying, don't concern yourself with color so much as you do with what the birds actually do. Granted, the HARD colors are going to be those of stronger compared to SOFT colors. It's genetics. But Recessive Red isn't really a soft color. Again, it really depends (in my opinion as a non-comp flyer) on your family of birds and what they are producing for you. I wish you the best of luck!!!
Yours in the hobby,
Eric
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Mother lode lofts
141 posts
Aug 28, 2004
2:47 PM
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Eric I isn't a competition thing or one or the other color thing, Basicly what he was saying is to maintain the frequency you need the weaker caracter of the soft color,and for stability you need the stronger Character harder color,were talking the big picture here now not what one particular pair does. I don't think that this applies to all families either. I think it applies to the direction that "his" birds took him. You need to read through it a few time's to get a grasp of the context. After thinking about it at the end of that post I don't think that he got off topic from how character ties in. I think what he was getting at is that whether you end up with stiffs (strong Charactor) or too much heat (weak Character) you must breed many to get a few good ones. Eric it is the same with the color problem paragragh read incorrectly the message is missed. What is in there is knowledge for all not just a few, but it is one of those things that need to be read more than once.
Scott
P.S. the Rec Reds are no doubt the weaker character bird in my family
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Aug 28, 2004 3:01 PM
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Phantom1
15 posts
Aug 28, 2004
3:01 PM
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True...learning what "weak" and "stiff" means is critical to this discussion. Weak and Heat seem to be synonymous (the same). That's where the breakdown is on my end, as I'm not a comp flyer. I wouldn't really know what to breed towards or away from for what George is trying to accomplish. Rather I was trying to direct him best by re-inforcing what's considered a Hard Color versus a Soft Color. Just the genetics part coming out in me. Hope it helped George out regardless.
Eric
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George Ruiz
12 posts
Aug 28, 2004
3:09 PM
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when i put two blue chex together I dont get reccisve red I would like to but I dont
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Phantom1
16 posts
Aug 28, 2004
3:18 PM
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George,
That's not a bad thing. It just means that your Blue-Checks don't carry Recessive Red. If you're after that, put a Blue-Check with a Recessive Red. No matter which way you go with it. Both Cocks and Hens can carry it, but it has to be on both sides of whatever you mate together to reproduce itself. You may have a Blue that carries it, but unless you mate it to something that either is Rec. Red or carries Rec. Red, you're not going to get Rec. Red. Makes sense?
Eric
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
201 posts
Aug 28, 2004
3:20 PM
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George, they (both parents) must carry the recessive red gene to produce a recessive red. If your birds do not carry recessive red, then you will not get one unless you bring in a Recessive red,in which everyone one of his offspring, no matter what it is, will then carry recessive red. If you bring in a bird that does carry recessive red, his offspring on one of your birds you believe do not carry recessive red will have a 50 percent chance of getting the recessive red gene from the father.
Brian.
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highroller
23 posts
Aug 28, 2004
3:26 PM
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George,
recessive red is just as it's name implies...recessive. Both parents need to be recessive red or at least carry the gene(?) for recessive red in order to produce it in their young. If after several matings you never get recessive red you can assume that only one or none of the parents are carrying the required gene.
Dan
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highroller
24 posts
Aug 28, 2004
3:28 PM
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oops, looks like Brian and I are on here at the same instant....
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George Ruiz
13 posts
Aug 28, 2004
3:56 PM
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Thanks fellas I am learning more every day I appreciate all the knowledge you guys share with me
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Russ
Guest
Aug 28, 2004
4:59 PM
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That recessive red thing can be very confusing in regard to the birds character. A recessive red, according to Pensom, is supposed to be weak of character and carry more heat. The checkers are hard character but stable.
But the recessive red bird can actually be a hard character bird except it is wearing red clothes so the true color doesn't show. How does the recessive red gene change the character of the bird from strong to weak if it actually may be a hard character bird in disguise?
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Phantom1
17 posts
Aug 28, 2004
6:34 PM
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Exactly Russ! A Recessive Red is a solid Red bird showing no gray in the tail bird (such as the Ash-Red). It is very plausbile (spelling) that the Rec. Red acts as a mask over what it's on. For example..the "Isabel" color in some breeds. From the eye, it looks like Rec. Red or Rec. Yellow on top of Dominant Opal. Thus producing the white bars. The same can be applied to a Rec. Red Roller produced from two Blue-Checks. Just because you produce a Rec. Red from two Blue-Checks doesn't mean that it will always throw true.
Eric
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Mother lode lofts
144 posts
Aug 28, 2004
8:05 PM
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Probably due to the same reason that all Bigfoots are left handed LOL
But it goes deeper and thier are links, why do birds with web toes end up being a high percentage of good one's out of my family ? why does a particular pair produce particular colors that end up as a high percentage of good one's ? and another particular color out of the same pair you might as well cull out of the nest because they never pan out?
Scott
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
204 posts
Aug 28, 2004
8:42 PM
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LOL Scott, I thought all Bigfoots were ambidextrous. Had no idea it was because of them carrying recessive red..lol. Too funny dude, still laughing over that one..lol. I've had as many stiff reds as I have had hot ones. I think it is more previlant in certain tightly bred families where there is a definite difference. I can say though that I have seen more soft character recessive reds than I have blue or red checks. Not a evident conclusion, but just something I have noticed. One thing I am certain with the birds I have is that a recessive red over ash red is a stronger bird than one that is over blue check.
Brian.
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Mother lode lofts
145 posts
Aug 28, 2004
9:00 PM
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Oh I can get stiff one's also Brian, I can also get overcooked blue checks but on a whole there is a differance, and you can also detect it in the youngster kits during deveopment, Like I said earlier most of my matings are either Dark check or blue check,Rec. red mottles have a reputaion to be hotter than fire crackers in most families and I've seen the same here also.
Jerry Higgens is big on color balance and I know that you guys have talked about it. Tell us what he's told you.
Scott
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Russ
Guest
Aug 28, 2004
9:03 PM
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The other soft colors mentioned besides recessive red are white and yellow. Now yellow I can understand as a dilute of red but for white are we talking about whites with bull eyes (piebald ?) or are we talking about whites with colored eyes which could actually be lavender grizzles I think (spread/ash red/grizzle ?) Just trying to figure this hard color/soft color thing out.
Thanks.
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Mother lode lofts
146 posts
Aug 28, 2004
9:03 PM
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Russ I think that when you are able to answer the questions above Brians last post then you will have your answer. certain dots connect
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Mother lode lofts
147 posts
Aug 28, 2004
9:07 PM
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Russ Rick Mee dumped his grizzle's you may want to ask him.
But those same birds are what won the W/C for Dennis Burke, go figure LOL
Scott
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Russ
Guest
Aug 28, 2004
9:18 PM
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I could be here awhile trying to figure that one out. It's been a long hard day for me and I'm seeing lots of dots already. Please don't ask me to connect any. LOL This hard character/soft character thing is something I haven't seen on this board before and hopefully I will gain a little knowledge.
Thanks
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
205 posts
Aug 29, 2004
1:10 AM
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Scott, Jerry is big on color balance as it applies in his family, but won't hesitate to recommend the same for others as well. I tend to disagree with him sometimes because not everyone flies families of his or like his. There are differences. What recessive red does in a hot family is boldly different from what it can do, or lack there of, in a stiff family. But back to your question. Recessive red is the cornerstone tool for his family he has created. He is one who runs the ragged edge on heat, threading the needle with every bird produced. The mass majority of his breeding pairs are black to recessive red with the combination of white flights on either parent. I believe he has a few red checks too, but he doesn't talk about them much. His philosophy as he describes it to me is the rec. red brings the heat needed to produce hot pigeons, some make it and some don't, but the ones that do are usually really good ones and deep. He'll also be the first to tell you he hates blue checks and blue bars. In fact I think all of those guys aren't too fond a bar and will cull it regardless. He always tells me if I keep breeding black to black (which are my favorites) they'll go stiff on me. That I need the red to keep the heat. And overall I tend to agree, but I think there is more to it than simply that alone, which brings me to Russ' question.
First the term to describe what recessive red does visually is that it covers or acts like a red coat over a base color. That is just an easy way to describe what it is doing to folks who might not be fond of genetic principles. Somewhat of an analogy. Recessive red even covers up indigo and spread so you could have an andalusian under a recessive red as well. Other factors or modifiers are expressed in combination with the red, producing different colors other than traditional recessive red. Recessive red is an somewhat unstable gene and can alter the true designated expression of other factors located close to it on the chromosome locus. A prime example is piebald and tiger grizzle. Recessive red suppresses the action required for the piebald gene to do it's job, therefore you get white in different places and seldom ever, a true piebald marking. It also can and most of the time does, suppress the grizzle (Im talking about the mottle form of grizzle, not the grizzle like you would see on say a tort or blue bar) by constraining the white to certain areas, usually the shields and down through the hocks. Recessive red mottles are born self, then molt in white. If they are not a recessive red, say a black, they are born with white in the nest.
Interesting note-Of all of the mosaics I have seen, nearly all were expressing recessive red in one of the conflicting parts. Just something that I thought I would add.
Recessive red plays tricks in many ways and one seems to be that it weakens, to a varying degree, the quality of the feather. But having other modifiers like dirty will help restore some of that feather quality back, as well as being over an ash red checker. What the connection is to having a weakening factor on the bird, regardless of color, is unbeknownst to me, and any genetics you read on recessive red never talks about the physical or mental characteristics of such. It is more trial and error and after you raise a family, usually regardless of what family it is, you will see traits develop if you breed enough and pay enough attention. Anyone who breeds for competition and flys hard, breeding over 100 youngsters a year, can usually tell you the finer points of his family, and most tend to agree that the recessive reds tend to run hot for the most part.
I haven't seen too many solid white self rollers other than one guy over by Tim's who free lofts about 100 of them. But I have only seen a few roll at all. Irregardless, a bulleyed white is a recessive white and an orange-eyed white is a homozygous grizzle and then some. If you see a white roller with orange eyes it is almost assuredly a multiple grizzle mating, like mating tort on tort for generations. They get lighter and lighter until they are nearly all white. Piebald is a marking and not a color, and often if you put two badges (piebald) together you will get saddles and even bellneck type markings. I have only raised one saddle/oddside roller that was worth a darn. Now when I get one, I can pretty accurately tell its a dud when I wean it. Mine usually always lack control.
It is my belief, based on what I have read and what I have experienced, that recessives when expressed, regardless of what it is (there are bunch like the web feet, white flights, etc), do have some effect. It might a one-percent difference or an 80 percent difference from without. To this day I cannot recall raising a white flight roller that did not roll. But often their non white flight nest mate might be as stiff as a brick. And like Scott said earlier, when I get a web footer in the nest, go to the bank because it is definitely going to roll and probably a lot. The grizzle thing is still hit and miss. In one pair,the lighter (more white) they are, the hotter they are, while in another pair, it doesn't seem to matter though often all of the offspring from that pair are rather stiff, so it may not be a fair assessment.
There are way more things that play into a birds character than most people can even begin to understand unless they really want to try to develop an understanding of how to see it and what they might be looking for. The simple tools are feather quality and facial expression or the bird's personality. A good reader of a bird like say Pensom seemed to be, could spot the right tool bird in an instant. The character stuff is what he was looking for and could understand. Some things like Recessive red, for the most part, is one of the easiest chances to take. The safe bet if you are looking to loosen up a bird with a little too much control. I still think there is much more to what the final product of such a mating is, but one can't deny that there is some sort of connection.
Oh, and by the way Russ, when someone is referring to soft color and hard color, they usually are implying about the quality of the feather and the how it tends to relate to specific colors. If someone says hard color, they usually would mean a blue or red checker where if they say soft color most would understand he means a recessive red bird or bird with white. The actual color isn't the important part but more how they understand its general connection to a bird's state of mind.
Brian.
PS--If you don't quite understand all of that, the best bet is go with your instincts and pair up according to how you feel they will produce, then put a couple of pair together you think will be the pair that produces the crazy ones, you will be surprised at that outcome sometimes..lol.
Last Edited by MCCORMICKLOFTS on Aug 29, 2004 2:40 PM
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Bluesman
40 posts
Aug 29, 2004
3:42 AM
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Well written piece of work Brian.In fact I am printing it off for future reading.This post can be read many times and you could still learn something different.On the grizzle side in my family the Torts are the better rollers.I had put together a kit of 22 grizzles to just watch them.What a beautiful thing to see in the air.Lost 18 of the kit last week that got caught in an Updraft that swooped them out of sight.Not a one made it back.This is the second kit I lost this year.One before a storm and one after.Both young kits.The older kits love & work these updrafts but they are smart enough to break out of them.Kind of got off post there.LOL
I think that anyone who raises rollers seriously will soon develope a family of birds that surround the breeder.We pick according to what we like and breed from such.Like I like Torts & Blue bar grizzle better than some of the other grizzles.Therefore the Torts are the better rollers because I spend more time & attention to them than some of the other grizzles.Somewhere along the line we see a bird that catches our eye and is exactly what we like in a roller and we take that bird and cultivate it and that color or pattern soon becomes the better rollers in our loft.I love Self birds(checks,bars whatever)butI hadn,t noticed untill last year that most of my kit birds had white on them.Even the Lavenders,Yellows,Creams & Opals.Probably would not have noticed then if someone hadn't said about they were easier to see in the air.
Again a very good post Brian.Keep'm coming.David S.
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Slobberknocker
6 posts
Aug 29, 2004
5:50 AM
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Good posts all of you. I was once told by the guy I got my Mason family from to mate light colors with dark colors for best results. There were some colors that were more of a meduim color than light or dark. I have found through this and with this family the Recessive red runs rampant through them. I have rarely had a pair of these Mason birds that did not carry or produce Recessive Red. I can honestly say that I have seen less than 10 out of say 200 to 300 of these Mason birds that did not carry Recessive Red. I have to assume it was there for a reason.
If I may give you an excerpt from the book "Winners With Spinners" by Graham Dexter on the subject:
"...over the years the more I have experimented with different colored crosses the more I have found that, for some reason, the softer colors crossed to the hard colored pigeons tend to give you the optimum results. Although I am sure this is not entirely due to color, I cannot reject the evidence of my own eyes. It would seem that if you continue to breed the hard colors, the blacks and the blues together, then it eventually leads to seldomness in performance. On the other hand if you pair soft colors together, i.e. the reds, the mealies, and tortoiseshells more and more often, then the performance becomes somewhat more frequent and the pigeons tend to be rather weaker pigeons. Although they may roll more, they appear to roll somewhat sloppier, deeper, and eventually may lose the quality of performance completely.
"These are just my own personal observations, and with a very small sample, so it is up to each fancier to determine for themselves whether they believe this to be true or not."
Again, it is as some have suggested that it is all within a particluar family. As Scott mentioned, anything with webbed feet he can take it to the bank that it will be a good one. In another family, the Blues may tend to be the best. In another, it may be Ash red. And so on. I am flying my first Recessive Reds out of my Turner line so I will see what they are made of. So far, the Blues and Qualmonds have been the hotter ones, but the Recessive Reds I have been getting are from a Blue and Qualmond mating. Time will tell.
I hope this is useful to someone and I hope I didn't just start up the debate again....LOL!!
Bob McGuan
www.slobberknockerlofts.com
Last Edited by Slobberknocker on Aug 29, 2004 5:52 AM
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Mother lode lofts
149 posts
Aug 29, 2004
12:47 PM
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What I find that these posts do for me is dwell into deeper thinking of my own birds. Brian that was an excellent post. I was thinking about your remarks about Jerry's distain for the harder colors no matter how good they are, Jerry changed his family what 6-7 years ago ? He's made mention that he did it due to stiff flying kit's and it's obvious that he like's that very hot side, Maybe he's gun shy on how those colors played into his prior family. just speculation of coarse, but I've also seen how certain things can play on my head such as say a pair that produces many Blue Bars and none pan out. I find that my patiance for all Blue Bars can be very short no matter what they come out of. This is nothing but an example as I've raised some excellent Blue Bars. But the opposite can also hold true and that is giving a bird that resembles some superstar that you have more of a chance than you normally would. And some times it can be things that are just put in your head by others.
One point that hit me like a brick Brian was the soft feather verses the hard feather remark. And I believe that this runs more in line with the topic than the actual color itself and I think that how hard or soft feather ties in is much more substanial than the actual color itself. But also particular colors tend to go one way more often than not depending on the family.
I've been giving the rec reds in my family a lot of thought. Basicly there are three line's within this family,one produces the washed out Reds with blue showing, these are tight feathered and are never on the "hot" side. Another line I never see rec reds out of, but neither are they stiff. And then theres the side that give's me the deeper color rec reds and the rec red mottle's. These birds can run hot. All of these birds tie together but are different branches off of same the tree. So maybe it all does tie into just basicly a family thing or for that matter paerticlar pairs within the family. But like I said earlier I believe that the hard feather verses soft feather play a more universal role across the board within my family but certain colors tend to to lean more towards the feather, but not allways.
Dave at first the comment towards breeding too a particular color of our preferance set an alarm off in my head and my initial thought was "not around here" but as I was out shoveling 4 yards of rock out in my front yard in a 100deg (ever notice how our wife's ideas allways involve's our labor LOL)I dwelled on it a bit (plenty of time to think when shoveling rock). Personally I have never let a particular color take me in any direction unless it was following performance but then again there's not a lot of choices here. The guy that this family came down from once said "I kept the colors basic due to not loose focus" But he also love's the pearl eye and horn beak and it prevails in the family but there are other certain looks within the family that are striking to "me". Such as a fairly tight feather almost black dark check with a bright orange eye and horn beak,with the spin type, A bird with this look gives me a woody. Luckily the birds that these are coming out of are high producers of good one's and if I can get the sibblings to produce the same,who knows. But one thing that I will work on is keeping it in check and making sure that it does'nt go that direction because of the looks alone. But human nature being what it is I agree with you that they will follow our like's and dislike's and I find myselt giving such birds as I mentioned more patiance than I normally would. But I also believe that we have to careful not to head backwards due to it. Good posts here and it's provocing some good thought.
Scott
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Aug 29, 2004 1:00 PM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
206 posts
Aug 29, 2004
2:38 PM
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Scott, when I was up at your place, the one thing I did notice is that nearly all of your stock birds have what I would consider hard feather. Even those deep red cocks you had, if memory serves me correctly, were of good feather too. You have dirty in your birds which creates the deep sheen and rich color on both the blues and reds. A horn beak blue or ash red is indicative of smokey, another color enrichening factor. To describe just how inconclusive this whole red thing is, the recessive reds I get with a blue rump are always hot. The lighter orange ones (void of color enhancement modifiers) are about 50/50 and the deep sheen ones tend to be stiff, but I know for certain those are ash red underneath. Ash reds tend to be my stiffer birds unless they have white on them such as white flights or some other recessive factor showing.
Brian.
Last Edited by MCCORMICKLOFTS on Aug 29, 2004 2:38 PM
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Bluesman
42 posts
Aug 29, 2004
2:40 PM
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Scott.What I meant when I said I liked Torts over my other grizzles is that the Torts were the better performing grizzles in my family therefore I focus more attention to them.If I focused as much attention to the Red grizzles(next best)and cultivated what was there they would become the better performers in time.Good thing is I have a lot of good breeders that James Turner & Bob Baxter has already done the hard work and all I have to do is play around within the family and try to pull something out I don,t know is there and at least not go backward.
I was looking over my birds today and realized that the most of my birds are on the blue side.I have one Red Check Cock in all my birds that is a good clean check.Gotta do some thinking on this.LOL Apparently none of his offsping has ever made the cut.Yes these posts does get a fellow to thinking and looking.David S.
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Thor
13 posts
Aug 29, 2004
11:45 PM
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Hi George R.,
The theroy of breeding Blue on Blue is that if bred together long enough, the breed will revert back to its wild state/commie pigeons. Well atleast that's what the Genetic book I read last year stated... oh, yes Genetic books do come in handy sometimes. (grin)
That's why you see so many Blue and Blue check commies on the streets today.
Hope that helps...
Thor
P.S. When a Birmingham Roller becomes more and more like it's wild cousin (the commies), the theroy claims for it to become more and more stiff (less frequent) until if bred stiff to stiff long enough, it will completely become a straight fliers... and we all know what we would call a straight flying Birmingham Roller - a commie! (grin)
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Mother lode lofts
150 posts
Aug 30, 2004
2:17 PM
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On this topic Pensom makes mention of how to deal with "breeding problems" In other words a tool.But why break out a tool if not needed at the moment. Bottom line Gearge is if it's working breed towards it.
Scott
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Aug 30, 2004 2:22 PM
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Mother lode lofts
151 posts
Aug 30, 2004
2:34 PM
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Brian I think that all depends on the birds within a particular family. In other words yes I have soft feather but not nearly as soft as some that I have seen. As for good feather qaulity. Overall it's pretty good but I can get very poor popping up also. I get a few birds every year where once spinning they will break off all secondarys and tail feathers and even some flights. They look like bats LOL. Once they go through a good moult it gets much better though. I guess I could claim that they are such awsome spinners as being the reason LOL LOL. It's like blood in the eye, its a fault, only this one being poor feather qaulity. Although I would rather see this as it does'nt affect them the same way. But I still breed away from it.
Scott
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Aug 30, 2004 2:36 PM
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spin vs roll
Guest
Aug 30, 2004
3:42 PM
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whats the difference?
I`m new here and am still trying to figure out what some of these terminologies are. So if some one would be kind enough to explain...say how the birds should act when they first leave the loft. the difference between a spin and a roll? mine fly for about twenty minutes or so and are fun to watch.I saw the post about the one roll a minute per bird and if the single backwards flip is a roll I have some pretty good birds I also have a pair of white nestmates that do what I would think is a "fuzzout" five or six in a row before pulling out. I have one bird that stands on his tail and tries to flip over backward but instead drops like a rock for thirty-forty feet or so . what is that called?
they like to catch the wind swoop down in a 100 yard circle then bank up and start rolling. sometimes they look like the dogfight scene in top gun. using their momentum to regain their altitude then rolling down again. I don`t know anyone else to watch their kit,so I describe mine as close as I can so maybe someone can tell me how they are.
thanks
redneckhippie15
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fhtfire
43 posts
Aug 30, 2004
4:04 PM
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Redneck,
If your birds are young...one flip or two or three is pretty normal. They should improve. What rolling is...is rolling fast and tight like a ball in the sky. Rolling staight down at a distance of anywhere between 10 and 40ft. When i say fast and tight, I mean like a blur. It looks like a donut rolling. A break is when 5 or more birds roll at the same time, and then snap out and get back with the kit...then when the birds reach the kit...then bam another break. When you see it you know it. To me it does not look like a dog fight. It looks more like fireworks going off. I think from the way you explain it is what young birds do. They sort of dart down and up kind of eratic...like they got scared or something. You do not want that with an old bird kit. You should get the book callled The Birmingham Roller Pigeon" by william Pensom. That is a good book and answers a lot of questions. It also has an illistration of what a roll looks like.
As for the bird dropping and rolling that is called "tail riding". Some birds do it when they are learning to roll. Some do it for a couple months, some days, some weeks and some do it forever and never roll. I am sure that some other fanciers can explain it better than I can.
Thanks,
Paul
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rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
157 posts
Aug 30, 2004
9:26 PM
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Hello, Red...You are welcome to start your own thread if your question deviates from the topic heading.
This will help keep the topics a little more organized and useful to others as well. Thanks and "welcome" to the site! FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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quickspin
106 posts
Nov 14, 2007
11:37 PM
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This is nice to know.
Last Edited by on Jan 10, 2008 7:58 PM
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quickspin
253 posts
Jan 10, 2008
7:59 PM
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Here you go Bigwilly
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gabe454
106 posts
Jan 10, 2008
8:04 PM
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TALK TO NORM REED HE WILL TELL YOU.
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454
TRIPLE "G" LOFT
Last Edited by on Jan 10, 2008 8:04 PM
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ICEMAN710
435 posts
Jul 21, 2008
6:05 AM
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good one
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Gary
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155
653 posts
Jul 21, 2008
6:48 AM
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GOOD TOPIC GUYS
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EVILLOFT'S
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bman
648 posts
Feb 27, 2009
8:05 AM
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Bump!!!!
Scott & Brian Mc........any changes in your thinking after four years or added info??
Thanks
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Ron
Borderline lofts
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pigeon pete
178 posts
Feb 27, 2009
10:06 AM
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Thanks for replying to this topic, I hadn't seen it before and I will have to put a weekend aside to read some of those posts,LOL
I read Scotts post, and would say in regard to fanciers ending up with certain colours. Yes we do keep a lot of white flighted birds in England, but the rule still applies. In many lofts where the fancier has had colour blindness and just concentrated on performance without any colour balancing whatsoever, you will see a predominace of blue series birds. Several top flyers have just got blue bar and cheq bages, black bages, with the very occasional recesive red comming along.
Many, like Pensom did, regard the Rec Red as a soft colour, and I know one top flyer who says that every time he gets one it is a guaranteed roller.
Pete.
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
320 posts
Feb 27, 2009
11:54 AM
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Since all I have are ash red bars and checks, blue bars and checks and blacks, I guess I am condemned to breeding hard color to hard color forever. Oh well, they work in the air!!
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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