nicksiders
84 posts
Oct 15, 2004
8:05 PM
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What has been your experience as this relates to quality of performance. Does one seem to do better than the other?
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Mother lode lofts
240 posts
Oct 19, 2004
6:37 AM
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Nick it has allways been as rule of thumb that the softer feather equels frequency and the harder the feather equels harder roll. I find that the harder feather birds no doubt on a whole roll harder and I think that it is due at least in part to less resistance. Plus the birds from families that have the harder feather birds just seem to possess more of the "real" goods as long as the family has the goods. The softer feather puff ball families of birds that I have encountered tend to allways roll very soft. Keep in mind that you have everything inbetween these two extreams also and there are allways exceptions.
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Leo
6 posts
Oct 22, 2004
6:01 PM
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Nick, I never knew of a rule of thumb, Ido know that BILL PENSOM never raised hard feathered birds. I owned several of his CHAMPIONS listed as CHAMPIONS in his Ledgers , I owned 63..3738 BE CK COCK pure 514 he was soft as silk gorgous orange eye the hen was 2237 bred small typy and soft as cotton , If you read his book he will tell you what they should FEEL like. I wont tell you what pages this info is on, but he mentions it 3.. three times in two pages. WHEN you find it, Please post it. THANKS.
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Mother lode lofts
247 posts
Oct 24, 2004
5:29 PM
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The 514 Stuff is not soft feathered,in fact far from it. I think probably we are on the same page here if we were standing in a loft comparing birds. Silky feeling does not mean soft feather. You can see soft feather without ever handling the bird. Generally a soft feather bird is a loose feather bird,and a hard feathered bird is a bird with tighter feather to the body. At least this is what we around here consider hard and soft feather birds.
Scott
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Oct 25, 2004 9:24 AM
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Leo
8 posts
Oct 25, 2004
4:29 PM
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I see that no matter who says what, you have all the answers, I see you are just a HOTSHOT a true OVERNITE wonder. You must lay awake at nite to come up with words like SOFT ROLL..RULE OF THUMB..PUFF BALLS..HARD ROLL ???? I talked about the 514 birds i got from THE MASTER himself,..But you showed your ignorance once again by stating that 514 are not silky but stiff, yea Scott 2+2=5 ..youre one can short of 6 pak. These birds were in my loft BEFORE YOU WERE BORN look at band NOs ,..give us all a break, it will be appreciated.....LEO
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Mother lode lofts
250 posts
Oct 25, 2004
5:05 PM
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Leo spitten out 40 year old plus band numbers and "before you were born" stuff doesn't really impress me buddy. Tell us what you know and what you have done with the birds. Tell us about those old blood lines and where you are today today with them. Weren't you the one saying a while back that birds that roll blood in should be valued ? Give us your reasoning behind that Leo. Yes Leo good birds "should" have that silky feel, but no I do not care for soft feather and they are not the same. Before you talk about can short of a six pack maybe you should go re read the threads on this subject and learn the what the is differance between soft and hard feathered birds. Maybe you should reread the post of mine that you reacted on also as in no way was it a slam on you.
Scott
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J_Star
50 posts
Oct 25, 2004
5:16 PM
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Scott, you have a way of making lots of friends.
I read the posts and I don't see anywhere in the post that you called his Pensom Roller a stiff. Leo, please lighten up a little. No reason for any harsh words from anybody. If we all agree on everything, we wouldn't be chatting. By the way Leo, there is a post called "Who's Who" and we all kind post some info about ourselves, please do the same so we know your background and goals. Thanks.
Jay
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Leo
10 posts
Oct 25, 2004
5:49 PM
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Scott, sorry if i ccme on too strong ,i realise the ban nos are old the family is still here ,These birds have won 2 state flys. I dont contest them ,other fellows do .One fancier wont admit it but the Word is they won WC They say the Fame and big bucks went to his head..SO BE IT ..As for the blood in eye pigeons YOU GUYS..ran me off to reconsider giving all this information to a bunch that DONT REALLY CARE the information is priceless many months of disecting and other non performing were also cut for comparison..but the attitudes of this bunch compells me to keep it to myself. This info would change your entire outlook on rollers ..a better insight ..you guys ARE WRONG if you think it is a fault. ...LEO
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Birdman
12 posts
Oct 25, 2004
7:41 PM
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Leo, I got three birds this year that would spin blood in their eyes. Hard spinning, fast as lightening rollers. All three of them were bred out of the same pair. I was interested in your study on birds that rolled bloody eyes but I never saw you post the findings of the study. If you won't post them here can you direct me to a website where I can read about what took place and what the conclusion was/is. I, like many who read these posts, have always concluded that a bloody eye is a weakness to be culled. I appreciate the difference of opinions expressed on this board and feel that sharing information and debating the issues is critical to achieving a higher level of understanding our birds. Some people may have the "I've already made up my mind so don't confuse me with the facts" attitude,(I've been guilty of this at one time or another) but I know that there are many more of us who would like to read about this study and come to our own conclusion. If you still don't want to post here, then feel free to E-Mail me at your convenience.
My E-Mail is r.d.dunagan@prodigy.net
Thanks!
Russ
Last Edited by Birdman on Oct 25, 2004 7:44 PM
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nicksiders
87 posts
Oct 25, 2004
7:58 PM
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Leo - thanks for your information. I haven't had time to find what Bill Pensom said about the feathering, but I will.
Scott - thanks for your opinion
Nick
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Steve S.
11 posts
Oct 25, 2004
8:32 PM
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Leo,
I'm like Russ this interests me.
Would you please:
E-mail me with your findings on the blood in the eye issue..
My e-mail is telstar@adelphia.net
Thanks
Steve
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Mother lode lofts
253 posts
Oct 25, 2004
9:28 PM
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Leo I truelly want to here more about your birds due to the old blood lines,my birds go back to Howard McCauly. You hit on the inbreeding a while on the 514 side. I would like to hear more as many say that it stiffened up when brought up tight on that side . What did you find ? As for blood in the eye,no I would never breed out of one and I never want to see it in this family,I have had birds out of other families throw it and as apples for apples go it had little to do with performance of one over another. At least that is what I found.
Scott
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Oct 26, 2004 9:32 AM
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redneckhippie15
47 posts
Oct 26, 2004
4:50 AM
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Leo,
Pease include myself in the group that would would like to hear more about this "heritage" line of birds.
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redneckhippie*blue dot lofts*
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Mother lode lofts
255 posts
Oct 27, 2004
7:06 AM
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Leo was 2237 a 1962 bird ?
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Leo
17 posts
Oct 27, 2004
8:40 AM
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Scott, 62..2237 red chk cock is correct he was a long time mate to 58..255 Better known as the RED HEAD HEN..page 50 bottom, She was the hottest of the 514 hens TAKE CARE ...LEO
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Mother lode lofts
256 posts
Oct 27, 2004
9:23 AM
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Leo just testing you LOL further up you called 2237 a hen. Frank Hampton had this bird at one time. So did
Howard McCaully.Did your Pensom birds come through Frank Hampton ? If not how ? give us some details about where your birds are today, The old band numbers are interesting but more important is where they are today. What do you see as far as the birds you have today compared to what you had yester year (realisticly) ?
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Oct 27, 2004 9:32 AM
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Leo
19 posts
Oct 27, 2004
11:17 AM
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Scott, If i refered to 2237 as being a hen, my old age is showing. The 2237 bird i had came from PENSOM it was a hen, this hen on 514 produced excellent rollers, but hard to give 514 or 2237 the credit. The 2237 line faded in favor of 514 birds , A fancier in Ind. had a few he was asking 500 a pr for them. I also see he wasnt winning any flys with them, so the 2237 blood has pretty well faded, I have an idea some of it is still around from what iam hearing. You asked about comparison to yesteryears birds??? HOWARD MCULLY said ...It will be no time and the rollers will be gone, I AGREED. BUT..because of guys like you, Brian and many more believe me YOUVE TURNED ROLLER WORLD UPSIDE DOWN and produced more top notch spinners than weve ever known. You guys have opened up the roller world and made good rollers available to any one interested,you guys have done a great job....from a grouchy old dog....LEO
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Mother lode lofts
259 posts
Oct 27, 2004
3:49 PM
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Leo your a cagey old fart aren't ya LOL. there are many people out there moving the breed along and I think it is due to the major flys as it puts the proof in the pudding. One thing that I think that hurt the old stuff more then anything was the pedigree breeding and I still see remnets of that type of breeding today,far to many birds look good on paper only. My Peds for the most part are put away and the only thing that matters is the closer generations as far as breeding goes and all that matters there is performance. But also my birds come down the same way up above.
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Oct 27, 2004 4:20 PM
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Leo
23 posts
Oct 27, 2004
4:33 PM
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HI SCOTT, Your correct except ,remember what you guys had to overcome, these birds were not bred for compitetion...you guys have got it by the ..short hair.. and getting flatass tough at it, dont back off now you got it whipped ...LEO
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Mother lode lofts
262 posts
Oct 27, 2004
5:27 PM
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Leo nothing whipped here and being sarcastic makes for poor conversation here. As for not being bred to compete I disagree. As long as they have the heart to work and kit and you have 15-20 birds that can do it right with depth and arent a bunch of stiffs then they are perfect to compete with . We don't fly by the old competition tumbler rule's, we are fly Birmingham rollers against Birmingham Rollers on a world wide basis under one judge. Now there are some that say that the old blood cannot compete, that it is too stiff and can't compete with the over frequent bred birds. I disagree with that also and have done pretty well with it. The key is never breed for pedigree, it's a trap that will destroy a loft and in the past I found myself caught up in it also, no more, it has to be right in the air first and foremost. You never answered me about getting your birds from Frank Hampton or not.
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Oct 27, 2004 8:33 PM
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Leo
25 posts
Oct 28, 2004
1:54 PM
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Tissue Scott, Please reread the post,I never owned a show bird ,never showed. YOU do not understand what i mean about competition. I would never answer your post but you lead dedicated fanciers into believing your GOSPEL .I know better. YOU talk about all the 514 stuff being STIFF iam sure it is,,During the 70s there was a hustle in central Calif. going on .....the birds were advertised coast to coast, 514 ... was the much prized sought after and it sold ,, The problem was this...They began seeking any dark or black pigeons putting a 514 pedigree on it,,,THEY COULD NOT MEET SUPPLY AND DEMAND..THE MONEY WAS JUST TOO GOOD....now mabe this info will help. Mabe the 514 stiffness comes from altered pedigrees. AN MABE NOT A DROP OF 514 is there.. MABE THATS WHY YOU DONT LOOK AT YOUR PEDIGREES..and at least get an idea, I think you must have some of this stuff. ....
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redneckhippie15
50 posts
Oct 28, 2004
2:38 PM
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ok Scott.
I have question. If your kit is a "mongrel" kit by your own definition,would it not be better if it came from a single family? I read Rick Mee`s article on polygamy breeding. In it Rick stated when the kit is from the same gene pool,raised and trained together,that when one flies a close family the same stimulus that makes one roll should make all of them roll together. It should also kit tighter.
It also should make the feed issue a more manageable one. You stated that some families require more feed than others.It would seem to me that if a fancier flew one family,or 2 closely related families it would be to both the benefit of the flier and the line of birds
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Never watch you birds fly with you mouth open!
redneckhippie*blue dot lofts*
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Mother lode lofts
266 posts
Oct 28, 2004
2:51 PM
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Leo you have a stick up your ass or what ? I asked you some civil questions here and all you do is fire back with sarcastic dribble, but can never seem to answer a question. There is absoulutly no substance in anything you have said to this point. It's obvious you don't have a clue. And the only thing that you have offered here is the idiotic advice that a bird that rolls blood in the eye should be valued along with birds should have a wealth of feather. As for the 514 being stiff when inbred tight on that side. that is why I asked you what was your experiance with it you sour old gummer. It's now clear to me that your just full of shit when it comes to the birds and can't fall back on anything but babble.
Scott Campbell
Valley Springs Calif.
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Oct 28, 2004 5:26 PM
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Mother lode lofts
267 posts
Oct 28, 2004
3:46 PM
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Keven you kinda threw me for a second on the Mongral kit thing LOL. Keven I agree with Rick 100 0/0 and it only makes sence. The tighter the birds within the kit blood wise to more that they will be on the same page as far as handling and sensitivity within the team. I have flown a bird or two in the team in the past that came out of another family and they worked well but the line and handling was consistant with my own family. If they were'nt then they would have never made the A team in the first place. There are some families out there that are like night and day as far as handling though and I would never attempt to manage them the same as my own. But then I just don't bring other birds ont the property any more either.
Scott
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K.Naylor
37 posts
Oct 28, 2004
4:01 PM
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You tell him Scott.
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redneckhippie15
52 posts
Oct 28, 2004
5:42 PM
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Thanks Scott
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Never watch you birds with you mouth open!
redneckhippie*blue dot lofts*
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Mongrel lofts
1 post
Nov 02, 2004
11:19 AM
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Hi Leo,
I also would like to hear your thoughts on birds that roll blood in the eye. Since you seam to want to keep it close to your vest, in fear it might help someone out here, I will share with you why I believe birds that roll blood in the eye, have one of two faults and probably both, making them poor choices for the stock loft.. Maybe you can explain to me why I'm wrong here and by so doing, help us all out..
When a bird rolls with good velocity and style, it pumps its head up close to the back in time with the arc reflex that is causing the roll. This keeps the head inside the roll close to the body and less pressure ( G-forces) on the blood vessels in the head. Do you get the idea, the further away from the center of a tight spinning matter, the greater the force, causing all things, including blood to rush to the outer limits of the spinning force..When a bird rolls blood in its eye,it is getting its head out of the center of gravity and letting it lift from the back, causing more force on the head, and many times something has to give. Blood in the eye, or a above the eye, causing a bird to have that swollen spot above the eye.. So its my thought, that this blood in the eye, can be caused by the fault of weak neck muscles allowing the head to come away from the center of gravity in a high velocity roll. Or just a mistake in some birds cases, as evidenced by a bird that rolls blood in its eye once, and then never again.. Or just plain old weak blood vessels, which would make a genetic fault you want to steer away from for sure..
Leo, many birds roll as fast or faster than any bird that rolls blood in the eye, without any trouble, this alone is evidence, that blood in the eye is a fault, either of genetics or mechanics.. Either way, its a fault.. thats my opinion, I hope it will get you to share your thoughts on blood in the eye with us.. KGB aka Mongrel lofts
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fhtfire
65 posts
Nov 11, 2004
5:38 PM
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Kevin,
I know that there are some birds sold by other people besides what Bob sells on Slobberknocker lofts. Some other lofts use Bob's site to sell...but are not Slobberknocker lofts birds. But, I do not know if you are ripping on the site (Bob) or not. I just want you to know that I have two young birds from Bob Mcguan at Slobberknocker and so far they are not to shabby.They are young but one is doing 15'fast and tight right now the other is about 10'...they also hit the roll in just about every break....Scott is going to come to my house to teach me how to vaccinate and I want him to take a look at the two young birds and tell me what he thinks. My point is...do not poke fun about other peoples birds unless you know if they are good or not. I have talked to scott on the phone about some of the birds on Slobber site (other lofts)...but they are not Bob's birds that look like they have been crossed.I would not poke fun at a site unless you are sure that they are crap birds. The two young birds are looking just as good at this point in time as some other birds that I have from local fanciers that are respected fanciers. Dan Cowell...whatched them fly and said they looked pretty good too. Just a thought.
rock and ROLL!
Paul Fullerton
Last Edited by fhtfire on Nov 11, 2004 8:37 PM
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Rick Mee
10 posts
Nov 11, 2004
6:32 PM
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In regard to hard/soft feather, the color of the bird don't necessarily mean it is soft or hard, just want to clear that up. I have seen hard feathered whites, and soft feathered whites, conversely have seen the same in darker pigmented birds also. In general, I would not say that hard feathered birds roll any faster than soft feathered birds, but on average this does seem to be the case. I would say that hard feathered birds, mainly blue/blacks, have a tendency to fly faster than soft feathered birds, and soft feathered birds have a tendency to be more frequent.
As for rolling blood in the eye, it is a weakness of the capilaries, it is a genetic fault that can be passed on, I know, I have tried it. Rolling blood in the eye is not the epitomy of high velocity spinning, although a fair amount of velocity must first be achieved for this to occur.
Rick Mee
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K.Naylor
51 posts
Nov 12, 2004
8:00 AM
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Paul, I did not say anything personally about Bob's Or your birds. Where I messed up was that I mentioned Scotts name. Even though there are things on the site that I do not agree with I didn't say anything personally.
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fhtfire
67 posts
Nov 12, 2004
12:17 PM
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Kevin,
I didn't personally did not think you were...it just sounded like it. I know you were not ripping on my birds...I am new so I do not have a leg to stand on yet...lol! I just know Bob and he is a pretty honest guy and loves his rollers. He aslo has some good blood. But I will agree with you...on one thing...some of the birds on Bobs site that are being sold from other lofts...do not look like pure rollers. It is just that I know that Bob enjoys this site and reads posts. You know what I mean. No prob brother! Anyway...maybe when Scott comes up you can come with him and give me some pointers too.
rock and ROLL>
Paul
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K.Naylor
54 posts
Nov 12, 2004
12:57 PM
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Paul, that is cool. maybe if i get a chance i will go with Scott. Take Care, kevin
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rmlofts
1 post
Nov 13, 2004
7:20 PM
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I am a new guy on the block but know most of you. I would like to comment on the 514, 255 bloodline. In 1962 one of the cocks used with 255 was PRC-58-1375, Pensom's bands were the 2200 series that year. My records only go back to 1955 and they show that 255 is out of PRC-55-7061 and PRC-55-5134. Both of these bird are said to have been breed by Plona Leo are these two birds out of the 514 hen.
Ron
Last Edited by rmlofts on Nov 13, 2004 7:35 PM
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quickspin
254 posts
Jan 10, 2008
8:03 PM
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This is good to know.
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FlyingDutchman
5 posts
Jan 11, 2008
1:48 PM
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Can anyone post a picture of examples of a soft and hard feathered bird? This would be a huge help to someone like myself who has gotten back into the hobby after not having birds for almost 15 years.
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7001
8 posts
Jan 11, 2008
3:07 PM
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Leo,I think your right in some aspect.I also have the pure
514 line coming thru Bob scott and Charlie Saldana.My birds
come thru 7001 whichis 3/4 of 514 herslf.7001 parents are
prc-53-514 and prc-55-106.Ihave 4 generations from this bird and another line NBRC-64-6053 which comes off of
prc-58-230 and nbrc-62-2355,which is telestar.These are heavy dk check birds and they still roll as fast as there grand parents.I believe the birds only could produce on how their DNA is made up. I still see birds roll so fast where they start looking like there floating!!These birds are hard feather birds, but feel smooth to the touch because I think it's just good health, alot of powder on the feather making the bird feel smooth, just my opinon.
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