steve49
569 posts
Sep 03, 2010
1:54 PM
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i was talking to a local Long Island flyer about all the expense and time to get the birds to compete, and how there is no monetary award for the regional winner/qualifier. I think it would be great if the region qualifier for the champ fly and/or the world cup would get his entry fee waived for the following year. some regions have more than one qualifier, so they also should get something for winning their region. its not a lot of money, but it is recognition for the work and luck needed to win one's region. half of all entry fees go to the national club and world cup org so i'm not sure if this was put to a vote if it would get support since it means less revenue the following year. however, it gives extra meaning to winning a region, and i think the bank account balances in the world cup and nbrc could handle it. ok, what do you guys think?
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
Last Edited by on Sep 03, 2010 6:05 PM
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donnie james
1152 posts
Sep 03, 2010
4:19 PM
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hay steve,
that's a great idea but i have no say so in the nbrc or the world cup maybe someone in the nbrc and the world cup read this maybe they can do something about the winner/qualifier of the region
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Donny James
"Fly The Best And Cull The Rest"
"Saying One Thing;Doing Its Another"
"Keep Your Head Planted In The Sky And Wings Spanned Wide"
1996 Piedmont Roller Club Lifetime Achievement Recipient
Portsmouth Roller Club Participation Award System Recipient 1994 '96 '97 And 2000
2001 Limestone,Ohio Sportsman's Club Lifetime Member Recipient
2002Portsmouth Roller Club Certified Judge
2004Portsmouth Roller Club Lifetime Member Recipient
"Miss Portsmouth"NBRC/90/J311 Rusty Dun Check Self Hen First Bird To Get Certified In Portsmouth Roller Club History With A Score Of 53 Judge By Joe Roe The 1993 World Cup Winner And John Bender The 1994 World Cup Winner
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SpinDoctor
2 posts
Sep 03, 2010
5:02 PM
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Ray Scott, founder of the Bass Anglers Sportsmans Society saw a need, and then filled it. He was the first one to organize tournament Bass fishing for money. The entry fee's are used to produce an 80%
payback to the field, The amount of entry money received, determines how many places get paid. Let me tell you my friends, Ray Scott is one very rich man today. I think if someone had the knowledge, and the drive to put something like this together, not only would it further the hobby of flying Rollers by bringing more public awareness and interest, but that person could also make a nice profit for themselves.
Last Edited by on Sep 03, 2010 5:04 PM
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steve49
570 posts
Sep 03, 2010
6:01 PM
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the current problem as i see it today is apathy. too many backyard flyers who won't compete for various reasons, plus those who've competed previously, but didn't do well and feel they don't have a chance, so why throw money away. there's just no justification for both the nbrc (the nbrc does provide the convention) and wc keeping all the proceeds w/o giving back to the flyers who compete. the accounts of these organizations contain enough money to certainly reward each region's qualifier/winners, and maybe more guys will toss their hats in. so, if anyone thinks that losing the entry fees for these winners the following year is not worth the oppurtunity to draw in more fence sitters is just not seeing the big picture. the way it is now, the sport is stagnant, with little growth. throw a bone to the competitors, and it will make it a more positive and fun experience. i hope others feel this or something like this is a good idea, and maybe the powers that be will consider it. Perhaps a trial period to see how the response is? just an idea.
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
Last Edited by on Sep 03, 2010 6:04 PM
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Raul Carreiro
104 posts
Sep 03, 2010
6:40 PM
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Hey Guys pardon me for intruding on the subject! I am not a competitor because there is no one here in Bermuda to compete with LOL!I believe Steve has a good Idea as far as enticing more persons to enter comps by way of the winners receiving prize money. Their are many here who use one brand of feed or another from different feed mill company's, why not ask them if they would be willing to help sponsor comps by putting up prize money and in turn they could get good advertising on there feed and maybe boost their feed sales through competitors buying their feed.
Just a thought,
Raul.
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Rick Mee
59 posts
Sep 03, 2010
7:06 PM
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I have always said that the day we start handing out prize money for roller competitions is the day I pack it in. We already have enough petty bickering and back biting going on over a mere plaque or trophy, think about what kind of corruption could surface and what judges could be accused of if money was on the line.....especially if it is substantial.
I have many converted homer friends who now fly rollers, the comaraderie we share was the appeal for them to switch over. Put up some prize money and much of that brotherhood we now share will diminish.
If you want to figure out a way to make roller flying profitable I suggest you put the work in and try to win a few competitions.....guys will damn near beat your door down trying to get their hands on some.
Lets figure out a way of certifying a pool of judges who can all score a kit within 10% of each other, then paying them for their services. This would make judging more appealing as it would become a profitable venture to get in to.
IMHO, and believe me I have thought this through in the past, no prize money, no betting on roller competitions.
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SpinDoctor
3 posts
Sep 03, 2010
8:44 PM
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My friends,
This is all I will say on this subject. There has to be a way to reward winners besides giving them a piece
of wood to hang on thier walls. The amount of time to
breed a competitive family of Rollers, The vitamines and medications, the feed cost, losses to the Bops. All this cost money also, and trophy's do not pay for such things. Someone with the vision and the dream could surley come up with something.
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
699 posts
Sep 04, 2010
4:28 AM
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Rick,
On this subject we agree completely.
James,
Anyone who is in the competition for anything other than the love of the breed and support of the hobby is in the wrong sport.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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old guy
66 posts
Sep 04, 2010
6:42 AM
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The cost of one NFL game is two to four times the cost of one regional fly. If we love our hobby enough to breed and fly our birds all year, certainly a few dollars to enter the World and National championships isn't that big a deal. If we charged no entry fee, most of those who don't fly now would find a different reason not to fly. Some just don't like to compete. Wayne.
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Rick Mee
64 posts
Sep 04, 2010
11:56 AM
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If you win competitions your answering machine and email will be flooded with requests for your birds. If you do sell a few birds and the guys whose hands you put them in are also successful, guess what, other guys will want them.
If you win your picture will be plastered all over the bulletins, internet, and guys will talk about you, some positively, some negatively. LOL
Bottom line, no need to have big pay outs for roller competitions, too many negative implications in doing so. The rewards will come to those who put the time in and are consistent....and above all do the right things in support of our hobby.
If you guys want big pay outs then I suggest you get a few homers and enter them in one loft races around the world. I entered the Sun City Million Dollar Pigeon Race this year for the first time. The organizers pay out 1 million, 1st prize is $200,000.
Judging roller competitions is subjective enough, throw some money out there and you will see guys really start acting stupid.
I think if everyone just uses a little foresight we will all soon realize that this just will not work.
Now if we had a way of sending in video footage of our kits in action and there was some sort of program that could decipher correct rolling from the footage and come up with a score, well then it may work.
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steve49
571 posts
Sep 04, 2010
1:34 PM
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Rick, I am not advocating cash awards. I was suggesting only having the nbrc and world cup waive their annual dues for qualifiers
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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donnie james
1155 posts
Sep 04, 2010
3:12 PM
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hay rick,
why not to give the award out for the quailfier/winner in the region hell thy give out piqucks for winning the world cup and the fall fly every year why don't the damn money for the the quaifier/winner every year is the nbrc and world cup that tight with their with money????????????????????
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Donny James
"Fly The Best And Cull The Rest"
"Saying One Thing;Doing Its Another"
"Keep Your Head Planted In The Sky And Wings Spanned Wide"
1996 Piedmont Roller Club Lifetime Achievement Recipient
Portsmouth Roller Club Participation Award System Recipient 1994 '96 '97 And 2000
2001 Limestone,Ohio Sportsman's Club Lifetime Member Recipient
2002Portsmouth Roller Club Certified Judge
2004Portsmouth Roller Club Lifetime Member Recipient
"Miss Portsmouth"NBRC/90/J311 Rusty Dun Check Self Hen First Bird To Get Certified In Portsmouth Roller Club History With A Score Of 53 Judge By Joe Roe The 1993 World Cup Winner And John Bender The 1994 World Cup Winner
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donnie james
1156 posts
Sep 04, 2010
3:14 PM
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i for got to say way of the roller man 1 and 2 help me sell my blue almonds back in '93 and '94 so why not sell your birds everyone needs extra money...........
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Donny James
"Fly The Best And Cull The Rest"
"Saying One Thing;Doing Its Another"
"Keep Your Head Planted In The Sky And Wings Spanned Wide"
1996 Piedmont Roller Club Lifetime Achievement Recipient
Portsmouth Roller Club Participation Award System Recipient 1994 '96 '97 And 2000
2001 Limestone,Ohio Sportsman's Club Lifetime Member Recipient
2002Portsmouth Roller Club Certified Judge
2004Portsmouth Roller Club Lifetime Member Recipient
"Miss Portsmouth"NBRC/90/J311 Rusty Dun Check Self Hen First Bird To Get Certified In Portsmouth Roller Club History With A Score Of 53 Judge By Joe Roe The 1993 World Cup Winner And John Bender The 1994 World Cup Winner
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Rick Mee
68 posts
Sep 04, 2010
6:41 PM
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That may just be a good idea Steve. I hate to hear we don't have enough money, especially from the NBRC. If we need more money then we need more guys donating birds. It really is a burr in my saddle when I don't see top guys donating to the WC and NBRC auctions, or I hear they were asked but declined.
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wishiwon2
356 posts
Sep 05, 2010
9:39 PM
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Im against making rollers a profession too. I think your idea of waiving entry fees is a fair one Steve, but in the grand scale of things, it really isnt that significant. For me this is recreation and a hobby. I enjoy meeting guys and sharing it together. As pointed out by Mee, some other pigeons sports where significant prizes are awarded have become cut throat and lost the hobby/fellowship perspective that I enjoy. I am competative and like to win more than lose, but Im against any more prizes than already are the norm. If this ever becomes a $$ futurity type affair or winnings are cash, Im out. Im against paid judges too. Keep it simple, fun and amateur and the enjoyment of it will last longer. there's already too many guys who sweat winning or not to point that they make themselves miserable obsessing over a loss or win.
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Jon
If it were easy, everybody would do it
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wafer kits
133 posts
Sep 06, 2010
10:23 AM
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Hi Jon
I agree wih Rick Mee on not letting this become a money sport but do not understand why you are against paying judges? Do you not realize how difficult it is to find competeennt judges who can leave their homes for long periods of time without compensation? Al
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Rick Mee
75 posts
Sep 06, 2010
12:54 PM
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Al, I trust this is my friend Al Perron? LOL
Welll, I am not 100% sure judges need to be compensated, but I would rather they be compensated instead of putting prize money on the line.
You know, it would be neat to have an annual portable kit competition somewhere in the USA, probably held in the central part of the US on a roller guy's property with cheap hotels in close proximity. I know you said that it could be organized in the past, should we work on it?
Al, my biggest fear with the WC is that we will one day not find someone willing to leave their home for 70+ days to do the judging. It is also hard to find someone willing to be the WC GC who is willing to take on the responsibilities associated with that job.
Here is an idea I came up with and shared on Earl's List before I finally got off. Seems those guys are more interested in talking about politics and religion than pigeons, lost some good men over the last fiasco.
It takes roughly 34 days to judge the finalists outside the USA for the WC, 42 for the US. My plan would be to break up the finals so that the judge does not get burned out, make it easier to coordinate for the GC, and give us here in North America a better time of the year to showcase our birds. Right now we are trying to fly our birds coming in to the summer months. Birds are starting to moult, have sex on their minds, temps are rising. All this is going on over here in North America while our competitors overseas are flying in cooler temps, birds have went through the moult, and the birds urge has diminished due to the seasonal difference compared to here.
First judge the following for 14 days, start early May as it is now.
Denmark
Holand
Serbia
Croatia
Ireland
England
Send judge home for 7-10 days to recoup. Also, if there is a screw up between connecting flights this would be a time to get everything back on track before judging the next segment, same goes for other breaks between judging that you will see I list below.
Second, judge the following for 20 days
South Africa
Australia
The finals for the above countries would be flown at the same time it currently is conducted. This is a good time of the year for these countries to fly which has been proven in the past.
Judge returns home for a long rest, several months to recoup. Get back to work, enjoy the birds and family.
Third segment, judge the US for 22 days. For this example I will say start on 1 October, however these dates can be adjusted to suit.
1-22 Oct, judge northern US states and Canada, it gets too cold up there to fly any later. Right?
23-31 Oct, judge rests.
1 Nov-22 Nov judge the southern US states, to include CA.
If this was done it would continue to allow the countries outside the US to fly at the time they currently do. It would benefit the US because we would be able to fly our birds after they have went through a complete moult, temps have dropped, birds do not want to mate anymore.
Less stress on the judge, also the WC GC, easier to coordinate and schedule, more wiggle room for hick ups and gives the ability to get the fly back on track.
Now some are probably asking themselves the question, what about the NBRC NCF? Simple, fly it in the spring at the same time we fly the WC regional and finals. It is not called the NBRC Fall Fly anymore, so no one can say it has to be flown in the fall. LOL
What do you guys think?
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wishiwon2
357 posts
Sep 06, 2010
1:59 PM
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Al, I really dont think it is that hard to find reliable judges for a regional competition. Harder yes for a finals either WC or NBRC. We find one every year for our region and it seems to continue to work fine. Paying them isnt going to insure that they are any better of a judge than a volunteer. There would still be a range in scoring some doing a better job than others. The good ones will still be in demand just as now. Im ok with paying a stipend to GC and Nat fly directors. Judges at least get a paid for vacation/trip.
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Jon
If it were easy, everybody would do it
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Raul Carreiro
106 posts
Sep 06, 2010
2:26 PM
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Hi Rick, First off let me say that I have the out most respect for you and your accomplishments! But I dare to say that should you decide to not compete should there be monetary gain in this sport and you decide to not compete, would the Birmingham Roller sport cease to exist?
Raul.
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Raul Carreiro
107 posts
Sep 06, 2010
4:04 PM
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HI Rick , and by the the way I find it interesting that you have a post on this very subject!! (If you win competitions your answering machine and email will be flooded with requests for your birds. If you do sell a few birds and the guys whose hands you put them in are also successful, guess what, other guys will want them. IF YOU WIN A COMP GUYS WILL BE KNOCKING YOUR DOOR DOWN TO GET YOUR STOCK!! iS THAT WHAT YOUR IN IT FOR?)
Raul.
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
702 posts
Sep 06, 2010
4:05 PM
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Raul,
Rick has accomplished much in this sport and is entitled to express his opinion. You on the other hand have been in rollers for what, 20 minutes? Your sarcastic and provocative post is not really of any value to the sport. Maybe in 20 or 30 years people will pay attention to what you have to offer if you have established yourself as credible.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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Raul Carreiro
108 posts
Sep 06, 2010
4:50 PM
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Hey Sunflower , My name is Raul! Whats yours? I am as you are entitled to give my opinion on a subject! So maybe in 20 30 years you can give me an objective opinion! I Have in no shape or form discredited Rick!! Rick is one to be reckoned with!
And yes I have only been here for 20min But I would rather contribute my own thoughts than emulate others!!
But it is quite obvious what yours and other followers of the authority has to be questioned !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Raul
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michael salus
265 posts
Sep 06, 2010
4:52 PM
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Raul, Show some respect!!
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MJ "Peace"
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Rick Mee
76 posts
Sep 06, 2010
5:07 PM
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Thanks Joe.
Raul, you of all people know I hate to sell my pigeons, especially if you live outside the US and want some of my pigeons. If you do, then you better be willing to do all the research and find a exporter, I am not going to do it for you.....you know this first hand.
If I were in it for the money then you wouldn't see me doing well in competitions because I would be selling all of my birds. Think about it. LOL
The first guy who ever got birds from me had me sitting on the floor of my bedroom after I got off work one night and talked to me for two hours before I relented and sold him some pigeons. He took those pigeons, bred a bunch of babies, listened to what I had to say, then won the WC a few short years later. Dennis also had the highest Q and D that year. I was more proud of him than if I had won it myself....seriously.
Raul, I talk more guys out of buying birds from me than I sell to. Most guys already have what they need in their own lofts, they simply do not know how to dig the gold out of them or simply are not willing to put the work in with them to refine what they already have.
I donate to the WC, NBRC, and to the NW Roller Forum. If I were in it for the money I wouldn't donate my birds, I wouldn't have given birds to the guy who just moved in up the road from me from Sri Lanka, or the man who brought his son by to visit me awhile back. Selling pigeons is not my livliehood.....but I do enjoy putting some of my stock in the hands of guys who I think take the sport serious and will get the most out of my family and not bad mouth them if they do not have instant success. Several Master Fliers have some of my birds, or some of my birds crossed in, several guys won their regional flies this year with my family and they had the highest Q and D also. Some guys did well in the WC finals with my birds, Wayne Feder was 5th overall, 2nd in the US, had the 2nd highest Q and second highest D. When I do sell birds, I stake my reputation on them. Since none of us really raise that many great pigeons each year I sell very few...simply because if someone is going to fly my birds I want them to have some good ones.
Come visit Raul, wipe those misconceptions away! :-)
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Scott
3135 posts
Sep 06, 2010
5:13 PM
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Selling pigeons in any number and flying good kits that do well in comps don't mix .. as it sets you back too much ...it is that simple... I agree that making it a money would be a bad idea.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Sep 06, 2010 5:22 PM
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Rick Mee
79 posts
Sep 06, 2010
5:35 PM
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Scott, I raise about 150, keep about 1/2 for myself. I breed from just a few pair and use fosters, you been here and see how I do it. This enables me to fly good birds, also sell a few good birds. After the WC and NCF I let a few birds go out of the kits, super nice pigeons, just ones that don't fit in to my breeding program down the line because of their relationship to the other birds in the breeding program. I like a lot of 1/2 bro/sis, if the bird in question don't fit in the breeding program down the road, but I think it will be a good breeder, I may part with it. You just got to be careful not to sell yourself down the road to where you can't fly good kits. I have 2 06, several 07, some 08, a few 09, and a few 2010 in my top kits.
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Raul Carreiro
109 posts
Sep 06, 2010
5:42 PM
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Thanks Rick for your response !You and I have spoken in the past through email! I will discuss this subject further with you and you only!! Please feel free to email me privately!
Raul.
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Raul Carreiro
110 posts
Sep 06, 2010
5:49 PM
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Rick , I was just about to turn the computer off! But your last post to Scott just confirmed my thoughts!!!!!!
Raul.
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Scott
3137 posts
Sep 06, 2010
6:17 PM
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Raul.. Rick is the exception... and yet I can still assure you that it still sets him back.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Sep 06, 2010 6:18 PM
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wafer kits
134 posts
Sep 07, 2010
12:47 PM
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Rick
I tried for many years to get more people interested in holding portable flying competitions such as the old-timers did back in the seventies. I think it could be done but am now unable to travel much and may have to quit altogether. This whole hobby owes you a debt of gratitude for the many hours work you have performed on our behalf. Al
P.S. Jon It was the traveling judges I had in mind; not the regionals.
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katyroller
760 posts
Sep 07, 2010
1:37 PM
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I like the idea of waiving entry fees for qualifiers but fear that it would open the flood gates for money flys.
I like the idea of compensating travelling judges but only if they meet some type of certification criteria. If you are going to be paid, you need to be able to provide proof of competency.
I don't agree with the idea of paying out money to winners and placers. IMHO this would be detrimental to our sport/hobby. All flies would have to become money flies or they would eventually not be able to compete with the money flies which would be more profitable and be held in higher regard by many fanciers because of the possible monetary gain from winning and selling stock.
One only needs to look closely at racing to see that there is an ugly side to the sport that we don't need.
IMHO there is already enough financial gain to be had for winners of the big flys, if that is what they are looking for.
Tracey
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katyroller
761 posts
Sep 07, 2010
1:54 PM
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"the current problem as i see it today is apathy. too many backyard flyers who won't compete for various reasons, plus those who've competed previously, but didn't do well and feel they don't have a chance, so why throw money away."
Steve49,
I can't agree with your statement. I don't think you can fault backyard fliers for the current competitor numbers. Believe it or not some do not have the time or financial means to dedicate to breeding world class birds. I speak from experience but as I get older and closer to retirement I find myself with more time on my hands so I plan to return to competition flying probably next year. Your statement is like Mercedes Benz complaining that they don't sell as many cars as they could because folks settle for driving a Chevy or Ford! We all have reasons for why we compete or don't compete and none of them are wrong. I wouldn't fly rollers today if it wasn't for the backyard flier who originally got me started. What is worse, one less roller fancier or one less competitive flier?
Tracey
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Raul Carreiro
112 posts
Sep 07, 2010
6:02 PM
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Hi Rick I visited your website today! For someone who hates to sell pigeons why have a for sale section? Anyway I'm not looking to buy any I already have what I need! And yes I did do all the work myself and managed to get an exporter all the way in California A hot bed of Roller fliers as you know!
Take care,
Raul.
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Rick Mee
80 posts
Sep 07, 2010
6:33 PM
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Al, I think it could be done. In fact, what we could do is get enough portable fliers to combine and make their own region for say the WC, meet in the middle of the US somewhere, then have our kits judged by one person brought in who was not flying or by panel. There would be no traveling for the judge between kits because it would all be done at the same place. Guys could stay in motor homes or local hotels. The qualifier, or qualifiers could fly their finals within their region back home. I know it sounds too good to be true, but it definitely is feasible and not out of the question. This would be especially tempting to those who get devestated by the BOPs in their own backyards.
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steve49
573 posts
Sep 07, 2010
6:36 PM
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Tracey, i didn't say backyard flyers are wrong or at fault. i simply said for whatever reason, they choose not to compete. it could be logistics of where they live. it could be health reasons. it could be their birds, whatever. i feel, everyone that joins the nbrc should try competing at least once to get a taste of what its like. just having other experienced flyers and the judge come to your house is worth the cost of entering a kit. its also a show of support for the hobby. however, its everyone's right to enjoy this hobby anyway they choose. just because someone doesn't compete doesn't mean they don't have good birds either. also, it doesn't take a lot of money to compete, but it does take time to study your birds and decide which birds to breed from. if you're going to go to the trouble of breeding the best birds you can, competing will help you figure out if you're heading in the right direction. assuming all the stars are aligned when you fly, as weather and bop's can wreck havoc with anyone's fly.
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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katyroller
762 posts
Sep 07, 2010
7:03 PM
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Steve,
I agree that everyone should try to compete at least once as a way of supporting the NBRC and to try to improve their family of birds. I think its safe to say we share alot of the same thoughts on the subject. One of the problems with electronic communication, we don't always type what we mean to say. :)
Tracey
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