Steve S.
35 posts
Jan 16, 2005
11:48 AM
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Hello Leo,
This is becoming interesting.
The American Rollers from 1916.
I am aware that the first imports from England were in 1932 by Father Schlattmann of St. Louis Mo.
In 1935 Leroy Smith brought over 2 pair and in 1936 Smith, Riches,Buckley and Teesdale brought over 20 birds.
Also that fanciers in England like Skidmore,Payne and Bellfield Of Birmingham were breeding them 40 years before they came here.
I read a book Ray Perkins put out in 1946 when he became President of the Pensom Roller Club of which I joined in 1950's.
He was the most knowlegeable of anyone on the imports and etc.
Leroy Smith talked Pensom in to coming to America in 1948 and he spent a year here.
What I am getting at is The first writng that I ever saw was from Francis Buckley in 1941 that spoke of 2 types of rollers , the English and the American strains.
Please elaborate on your knowledge of the American strain that the Fireballs came from if that be the fact.
I have always been under the impression they were of the Birmingham strain as they were first originated.
Thanks
Steve
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Mother lode lofts
365 posts
Jan 16, 2005
1:09 PM
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So fill us in on this Calif flier Leo. Now another thought. Do you really think these birds are the same ? You can change the entire makeup of a family in 5 generations or even less for better or worse.
Rod..... I think that you pegged this one well.
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Jan 16, 2005 4:05 PM
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Leo
47 posts
Jan 16, 2005
2:09 PM
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I find that on these pages there is always an undercurrent of agressive attitude, and always the, 'proove it'. Well, i figured this,would happen, so ill finish this so you might, mabe, possibly, somehow, understand. iknow some wont. Jim and i were good friends, no one said anything about a 5 gen change, Steve the first Fireballs were also shipped in 1932 to T. Butler in Arizona . They were not american rollers, they were not pensoms, they were pure FIREBALL rollers these birds were bred TRUE ya hear, TRUE, THEY WERE THE PUREST .......... heres your answer.........WHITTINGHAMS........6pr yearly were selected by Mr WHITTINGHAM and sent to McAree and Graham.THIS is enough to answer you. There is alot more to this story, but due to the unwilling, being led by the blind, THIS STORY ENDS.....LEO
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Steve S.
37 posts
Jan 16, 2005
2:37 PM
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Leo,
Thanks for the reply.
Sorry you take a defensive attitude.
I just want to know the origin of the fire balls.
I have heard of the Whittinghams.
I know the neice of Mr. Whittingham ...Naomi of which lives in the UK.
I know a couple guys that fly some Whittinghams.
Please continue the story.
We learn by shareing history.
Later
Steve
Last Edited by Steve S. on Jan 16, 2005 2:38 PM
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FASTEDDIE
5 posts
Jan 16, 2005
2:43 PM
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Yes it is true that James Graham had his family of birds since 1916, but he resided in Canada as did J.V. McAree. McAree imported to Canada, from England, the Whittingham line of rollers which he had until 1954, just four years before his death in 1958. The Whittinghams made a major contribution to the "Fireball" strain, developed by James Graham. Although the original "Fireball" was a Red Beard Cock which was featured in 1941 in Graham's book, ACROBATS OF THE AIR, he was not the true origin of the "Fireball" stock of today. From 1950 to 1954, McAree and Graham shared a large pigeon barn. When McAree retired from Rollers in 1954, Graham took over all of his birds. In 1955 when James Graham moved to the United States, he brought with him, 20 of the finest McAree stock along with the best 20 of his own birds as mates for them. These birds were the true origin of all our present day FIREBALLS.
Also, the English Tumbling Pigeons were sent to the US in the late 1800's and were undoubtedly the basis for the formation of the American Roller. J. Leroy Smith was the foremost producer of American Rollers until his correspondence with Pensom in 1935, when he purchased two pair of the Birmingham Rollers. Several years earlier, Al Walker of Detroit, Michigan imported two pair from Pensom but those were later acquired by Smith.
I hope this helps to straighten out any discrepencies in the hsitory of the Fireball Rollers.
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Steve S.
38 posts
Jan 16, 2005
2:58 PM
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Fasteddie,
Thanks,
A great job of explaining the fireballs origin.
I got alot of peds with the Al Walkers 2 pair you mentioned.
463-1613 and 40-161
Of which Leroy Smith later aquired.
Thanks
Steve
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FASTEDDIE
6 posts
Jan 16, 2005
5:11 PM
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Steve, Just got off the phone with Leo, he wanted to apologize to you about his last response. He wasn't pointing the response at you, but in an angry rush, worded want he wanted to say incorrectly. I think everything is OK and back on track now. Steve, this next question is not directed at you but others on this thread, as you are asking legitimate questions without making accusations. Thanks
Why would the flyers of Pensom Rollers and/or other strains of Rollers want to come onto a Fireball Roller thread and make remarks that they know are combative and derogatory towards the Fireball strain, doesn't make sense. Don't you gentleman have enough to talk about within your own strain of rollers to have your own thread? Just a thought. Thanks, FASTEDDIE
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Mother lode lofts
367 posts
Jan 16, 2005
5:44 PM
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Sorry Freddie but I thought that it was a legitement question. I'll stay out of this thread from this point on and not ask any more questions so as to not upset Leo. But I do find the history of these birds very interesting and to be a very good topic. There are some posts here that are very good.
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Jan 16, 2005 7:14 PM
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Leo
48 posts
Jan 17, 2005
10:41 AM
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Sorry, for being quick on the draw, I appologise for my sorry, sorry post. Thanks to Fasteddie for getting my attention, and helping me back on track. Mother Lode, you asked about the guy in Calif, I would be willing to bet you know him personally. I shure dont want to 'open a can of worms' and make waves. I am just in high hopes that some old line Fireballs will be found, and possibly revived.....LEO
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J_Star
143 posts
Jan 18, 2005
6:32 AM
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fasteddie,
In regard to your question, I think you guys were selliciting the 'Pensom' breed flyers for info about others with Fireball strain. Does this mean that the Fireball flyers should stay out of the pensom posts altogether. I don't think we want to divide this site into the 'Fireball and the Pensom' divisions. Do we?
About the history of the Fireball, there are tons of info in the net about that history. Try angelfile.com, there is an article 'Ancient Roller Origions' written by Tom Monson that can shet some info about the history of Rollers in America. Glad to be of help. Thanks.
Jay
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FASTEDDIE
7 posts
Jan 20, 2005
1:42 PM
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Gentlemen, You miss my point. Out of 64 posts made on this thread, 22 were made by 7 non-Fireball flyers, 8 of those posts were argumentative in nature, those 8 posts were made by 3 Non-Fireball flyers. My question was,"Why would a non-Fireball flyer want to get on a Fireball enthusiast's thread and ask questions or make statements that are combative"? I didn't see any posts, from the Fireball enthusiasts downing any other strain of Roller, only reminising about the Old Line of Fireballs they either had as a kid, or some that still have the remanents of that family today. I don't know of anyone on this thread that solicited any information from the non-Fireball flyers, I think it was all volunteered. I personally don't/wouldn't go to a Non-Fireball thread and if I would, I surely wouldn't make derogatory remarks or questions about a strain of roller that a man wishes to fly. A divison between flyers of different strains, no, not at all. All these birds are Rollers, just different strains and families. I just don't understand the hostility, these are only pigeons. Thanks, FASTEDDIE
Last Edited by FASTEDDIE on Jan 20, 2005 1:43 PM
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BULLFROG
24 posts
Jan 20, 2005
5:36 PM
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well said fasteddie. as a new comer to this site and to the world of compitition rollers i was thrillled to see that there was still a place for the old fireballs. i am a lover of them but i also keep and am starting to fly other lines also. maybe i havent been in this roller world long enough to know the way it works but in many other facits of the pigeon world the birds bring many together to laugh and talk not to argue and demean others and their birds. i ahve a friend that raises in my eyes the uglyest pigeon on earth but it is his choice so we talk about them also and do it with out haveing to boost one above the other. i have seen on other threads the bashing of a line of rollers i own and am putting a lot of faith into for my futere as a contender. it may be over used and under rated but cant we all just get along?? we all share one love and that is the performing roller pigeon. chris
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Bluesman
71 posts
Jan 21, 2005
3:36 AM
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Chris.I agree 100%.
However; I have noticed that if a thread dosen't get a little combative it soon dies and nothing is learned.It seems like the combat nature makes someone open up or dig deep and find resourceful information.Sometimes things are said on here that comes over as being Combative but wasn't intended as such.Sometimes things are written in a heated moment that should not and would not have been said otherwise.Some will not post because they don't want to upset anyone.We all need each other & our thoughts & opinions.If anything said works for us we are ahead of the game.If it don,t work for us don't hang on to it.It all comes down to standing under a kit of birds that have just done an excellent job of performing and knowing that is why we love this breed.David
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J_Star
151 posts
Jan 21, 2005
5:01 AM
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This is the way always been in many ways. Look at the Chevy lovers vs. Ford lovers, the Coke vs. Pepsi lovers. If there is no arguments, the post will end quickly. Look back at the Wheat post, because of some instigation, the post opened up and allot of good info were posted for all to read. No body means any ill feelings toward anybody. Just enjoy the forum and the conversations. Thanks.
Jay
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FASTEDDIE
8 posts
Jan 24, 2005
8:17 AM
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Once again the posts have become even more rediculous, more rediculous then I had could have imagined. I don't know what world some of you people are from, but please, get a life. If a thread doesn't get combative it will soon die. Without the 8 combative posts there were 60 posts made on the FIREBALL thread, thats way higher than most threads I see. It probably would have went much higher, but most of the people that had some knowledge about the subject backed off and quit posting because of the combativeness. The only way you need to dig deep on this site, is to put your boots on because of all the BS. If you want to know something, just ask, you don't have to abuse someone or their choice of birds verbally to get information. I do know that people quit or won't post because of the abrasiveness from a small group of posters and NO, I don't need, and others don't need negative feedback from people who don't know anything about what they are saying, except to cause an argument. You know, your right, I did argue with people over the type of car or truck they drove, the brand of beverage they drank and even the High School they went to, but you know what, I GREW UP, I graduated from high school and left all those foolish things behind. If you guys can't carry on an intelligent converation without being abrasive, combative and argumentative, then I feel sorry for your families who have to live with such IDIOTS. MY LAST POST!!!!!!!
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Bluesman
96 posts
Jan 24, 2005
8:43 AM
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Fast freddie.I grew up a long time ago.No need to get upset.Sorry you don,t like the things we debate about.Why even bother reading the post that are put up?I did not get in on the Fireball Strain.I could have as I know what they were.Read every post made on them.This world is a big place.The innernet has made it possible to get everyones opinion on things.I use what I can and forget the rest.I have been looking for years for Fireballs off the Origional Stock.Good luck finding them.David
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BULLFROG
38 posts
Jan 24, 2005
8:53 AM
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fellas i have bad news. i recived the birds i have been talking about have arrived!!! they are not the stock i left before going over seas!!!! i am just going cull these birds. i am sorry i thought i could help out in the fireball revival but i guess not. chris
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Fireball
14 posts
Jan 24, 2005
6:45 PM
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Bluesman...I also have read all the posts..different strokes for different folks. We have a saying in some circles.."eat the chicken..spit out the bone". Take what will help you and leave the rest.
I really do appreciate the posts as a whole. I have made some great contacts and will be swapping some birds from 2-3 different lofts this summer. I had a short reprieve from the snow the other day and put out two kits of fireballs..really put on a show. I was looking for two hens to help expand my breeding program this year and two of them just put on such a performance that said.."hey boss, I can do it..just watch me.." very high velocity spinners..not rollers..but spinners..the blur kind. Beautiful red spangles. I am looking forward as I am sure others are for this new year of breeding young birds. I found a copy of Acrobats of the Air by Graham in a library in South Carolina. My library is trying to get them to send it out or make me a copy. We will see about that. Later..Bruce
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Leo
50 posts
Jan 26, 2005
7:13 AM
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Hey Fireball,WE had better get your ph. no or email ,If you are serious about the Fireballs,WE have a few to work with,If you are interested in reviving them,give us some info.....thanks...LEO...
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Bluesman
122 posts
Jan 26, 2005
8:51 AM
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Leo & Fireball.I would like to be included to if you don,t mind.My email address is dwsaas@innernet.net.We can get together by email and compare notes.David
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Buck
2 posts
Jan 26, 2005
11:55 AM
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Breeders, Fireball rollers
I too would like to be involved in the move to revive the Fireballs !
Bucdad@webtv.net
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Fireball
15 posts
Jan 27, 2005
7:50 AM
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Leo, Buck, Bluesman...butch2@bentonrea.com...If the weather continues as is, it will be a realllll dry summer for us. I will put my breeders together soon. Generally I start pulling eggs the first of June because it is so hot. We will see what the summer holds. Shoot me a message and maybe we can stir the pot to see what cooks up.
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Siddiqir
156 posts
Jan 27, 2005
8:27 AM
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I would also like to get involve and learn more about fireballs. Please include me siddiqir@yahoo.com
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J_Star
166 posts
Jan 27, 2005
5:17 PM
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Fireball enthusiast, while I was vacationing in NC, I ran across an ad stating "Pairs of Fireball rollers, good breeders, red and white splashes, $25/pair.
Fireball,
I am glad that you followed my suggestion to look for the book in the libraries. You have two options; one is to make copies of the pages for yourself. Copy shops would not do it for you because of copyrights. You have to do it at your work if you have access to one. The other option is ask them what would be the penalty if you loose the book. If the price is within the range of what you would like to pay for a used copy, then tell them you lost it and pay the penalty and the book would be yours.
Jay
Last Edited by rollerpigeon on Feb 02, 2005 10:32 PM
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Buck
3 posts
Feb 02, 2005
2:19 PM
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Hi Guys.
I am in the process of getting 5 birds that are supposed to have come from George Patterson . I guess George passed away fairly recently.
The man sent me a pic of two of the birds, they look to be dark ash red or recessive with white in tail & flights. Are any of yours marked this way, FireBall ?
(this was all the Fireballs this man had) :(
~Buck~
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mkg
1 post
Feb 02, 2005
10:44 PM
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Dose any one in northern ca have fireball rollers?
Last Edited by mkg on Feb 02, 2005 10:58 PM
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Leo
56 posts
Feb 03, 2005
6:47 AM
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Hi Buck, Mr patterson did pass away recently. The colors you speak of are fine, Fireballs came in most colors but many were red mottles and yellow mottles, you seem a little doubtfull about them, I would check the ;eyes;they should be pearl, or bull,Ive owned and raised many Fireballs. I have never seen any other colored eye,,No yellow no orange or lemmon colored eye, I had birds from the Masters of this family of birds,Mr Graham once said there are no yellow eyed birds inn Fireballs,he said it was a new color to some rollers. Let us know about them.....LEO
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Siddiqir
169 posts
Feb 04, 2005
9:53 AM
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I found this article on net, has real good information on Fireball Rollers Stain. Check it out FireBall Rollers. - Rauf
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Birdman
28 posts
Feb 04, 2005
10:14 AM
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Leo,
can you describe the 'type' of the best fireballs? Is the type the same as the old Pensoms? The reason I ask is that back in the early 90's an old timer gave me a cock that he said was from his old fireball strain. The bird was nearly all white (grizzle) and bull eyed, with a perfectly round chest like a tennis ball, wedge shaped, small to medium cast, and a real eye catcher. In the hand this bird was a dream, but in the breeding pen this bird produced too much heat on the hens that I mated him to and nearly all rolled down eventually. In your opinion, could this have been the result of a type deficiency, or could this have been the outcome of crossing with the Pensom hens? This thread got me thinking about that old cock again. I'm sure that my experience with him would have been different if I had a fireball hen to go with him but the only availlable hen ( a nice yellow) was old and barren. Too Bad! I would still like to have a few.
Thanks for your input,
Russ
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Leo
57 posts
Feb 04, 2005
11:46 AM
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Fireballers, lol The article is a fine piece of work also quite accurate,My being born in Cinti,O Son of a roller man, ive seen many of the birds,and been to many of the lofts in the article. As for the cock described it sounds like Fireball, they were generally longer cast had a wealth of feathers ,as far as rolldowns ,I had a yellow pr they would produce rolldowns, However i could remate them to some red mottle fireballs i had, and the youngsters were just Fabulous spinners, they were alot of fun and beautifuly marked, we are having some success in reviving this family.....stay tuned ..LEO
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Siddiqir
172 posts
Feb 04, 2005
1:35 PM
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"Fireball" as named by James Graham are basically "Whittinghams Stain of Rollers" which J.V. Mcaree imported in early 1900's. Just wondering why word "Old" use for "fireball stain". There is nothing in article which refers or uses word "old"? Is there another stain of fireball "new" which being crossed with "Birmingham rollers"? Thanks, -Rauf
Last Edited by Siddiqir on Feb 04, 2005 1:36 PM
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Leo
58 posts
Feb 04, 2005
2:56 PM
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Rauf, When i used the word ;old; i was refering to many yrs ago came the name Fireball, there is no new Fireball.Whittingham may be closer to true ;Birmingham
roller;than any roller.6 pr were hand picked and sent to Mcaree every year,again they were tried and picked again by Jim,they were the best of the best,in 1956 the birds were kept exclusively by many fanciers after Jim arrived here, again the word OLD helps the old fireball strain, that are nearly a thing of the past.A few of us are trying despertly to revive this old strain...LEO
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Siddiqir
173 posts
Feb 04, 2005
6:22 PM
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Thanks Leo, I thought the same but was not positive. I would also like to get few of old fireballs rollers and work on this amazing stain. If you guys make good contacts please have me in the loop at siddiqir@yahoo.com so I can also get started with them.
I noticed after reading the above article and have very strong feeling that this awesome stain simply died because of politics and nothing else... -Rauf
Last Edited by Siddiqir on Feb 04, 2005 6:24 PM
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Leo
59 posts
Feb 05, 2005
7:02 AM
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Rauf, I think you hit the nail on the head,The Pensom birds became popular overnite because of their kitting abilities,Fireballs were not very good at kitting,Every one wanted birds to kit like Pensoms. Slowly the Fireball faded away to the point of being gone forever.I work daily on tracking true Fireball rollers,Just last nite i got a good lead on the old Doc Nordland Fireballs,and where a few may be...In the process i came across what might be the American Roller of yesteryear....stay tuned...LEO
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mustang
2 posts
Feb 05, 2005
8:19 AM
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hello leo we have talked to fireball and fast eddie and are gonna let them know whats going on with the birds once we start hatching totali have six pairs my selfand 2 other guys up here also have alot of them well i will talk to ya later thanks BOB
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Siddiqir
175 posts
Feb 05, 2005
5:19 PM
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Thanks Leo for bring up kitting point. Good to learn how Pensom birds got popular. It is kind of natural that deep rollers e.g. Fireballs would not probably kit well.
Good progress you guys making on old fireball rollers stain please keep me in loop. Thanks, -Rauf
Last Edited by Siddiqir on Feb 05, 2005 5:19 PM
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BULLFROG
52 posts
Feb 11, 2005
8:25 PM
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good evening gentlemen. i have great news. i was contacted by a old friend. nearly as old as the fireballs:) he had heard i was looking to get my fireballs back and heard about the dissapointment i recive when seeing they had been crossed up. anywho he has sent me 3 pr of his origional fire ball blood. he is in his 90s and cant remember well but he said the fellow he got them from was a "mc vee or mc mavee or somthing of that nature" his exact words. his records show he got his first breeders in 1961. as i dont know the history on the line i hope this name means somthing to sombody. this is the man who is responcible for my love of pigeons and has kept the lines clean. these are all black and white splash or griz birds all late 04s. if one of you fellas would like these birds to use in your program please contact me at cbullfrog69@aol.com and we can work somthing out. i would just like to help keep this great line alive and well. chris
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highroller
95 posts
Feb 12, 2005
11:03 AM
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Bullfrog,
There was a guy named Mc Aree I believe. I read in an article somewhere that he developed the fireballs from the Whittinghams.
Dan
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nicksiders
100 posts
Feb 13, 2005
12:19 AM
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Bullfrog,
If you don't want your 60 footers, I will take them.
LOL
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rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
222 posts
Feb 13, 2005
6:43 AM
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Sorry Nick, I bought them...I am looking forward to breeding them and seeing what they can do. I saw some pictures that Chris sent to me and they also reminded me of some of the birds I saw when I was a kid.
They were deep rollers, some would go the distance of a telephone pole. They were fun to watch and this type was also what got me excited about raising rollers. FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Fireball
16 posts
Feb 16, 2005
9:06 AM
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Greetings to you all. Again thank you for your input to my 30 Dec thread. I am getting a copy of Acrobats of the Air; I also am getting to swap some good birds to further my breeding program and I have met some very cordial flyers. We have spring early here and my Fireball breeding loft is going ballistic. On another note, I received an e-mail from my Chaplain son who is presently south of Bagdad..doing a neighborhood walk among locals spotted a kit of rollers. "Not real good ones, but rollers non-the less". He is going to pursue the item and perhaps get a roller loft going??? Not all is cool..a rocket landed within 200 meters of his bunk also last night. Again...thank you for your help and a 'good breeding season' to all this spring. Bruce
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BULLFROG
55 posts
Feb 16, 2005
5:12 PM
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BRUCE
please send my prayers and best wishes for a safe return to your son. from a vet of the gulf war marine corp to another soldier come home when the jobs is done and come home safe. chris usmc
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Mother lode lofts
503 posts
Feb 16, 2005
5:35 PM
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Bruce what a great pigeon story from one the finest that this country has to offer !!!!!
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Alan Bliven
211 posts
Jul 17, 2005
2:21 PM
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Here's an old thread with almost 100 posts on the Fireball Roller. Maybe we can learn something from this or those that are interested in this family can make some more comtacts.
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Alan
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BR Rollers
1 post
Jul 17, 2005
10:22 PM
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Hello all...this is my first post on this site and thought this might be a good time to make a first post.
I saw Fireballs post about a Mr George Patterson of NC.
I live in NC and just yesterday at a bird sale/swap I purchased a few birds from a older fellow that told me he got the breeders from a Mr. Pattersons loft and personally knew him. He gave me his business card and I am going to call him tomorrow to verify we are talking about the same Mr Patterson. I am pretty sure it is the same man that Fireball got his birds from by the sellers discription of him.
I only bought the birds because my son liked them. They are pure white with maybe one or two red specks in the neck feathers on one of them. two are pure white.
Its looking like maybe I am sitting on some Fireball birds and didn't even know it! If they are Fireballs I am going to get a couple more birds and breed them and try them out in there own kit box. If I find they are the real deal I plan to share with others to maybe get some of there own birds.
I will post back soon.
BR Rollers
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RIFIREBALL
1 post
Jul 21, 2005
7:09 PM
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HELLO EVERY ONE HOW DID THE FIREBALLS TURN OUT THIS YEAR. OURS DID REAL WELL HOPE EVERY ONE ELSE HAD AGOOD SEASON TALK TO YA LATER ! USE TO BE MUSTANG
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joelbanc
10 posts
Jul 24, 2005
1:18 AM
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New Web Site "FIREBALL ROLLER PIGEON"
http://fireballroller.tripod.com/
Nice promising future place for central information.
Its still under construction, help is needed. Looking for
more content such as pictures, names, places & ect.
If you can contribute...please share.
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siddiqir
21 posts
Jul 26, 2005
8:16 AM
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joelbanc, nice site and thanks for sharing pics of foundation fireball pair. -Rauf
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joelbanc
11 posts
Jul 26, 2005
1:48 PM
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Thank you for checking it out and the nice compliment.
It needs some verbage to make the site more interesting
now that pictures are posted. Also have other ideas for more pages. It has taken time to design and upload
files to resemble a web site.
JOEL
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Alan Bliven
213 posts
Jul 26, 2005
2:59 PM
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Joel,
Nice pics of the pair.
What are the characteristics of your foundation pair?
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Alan
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