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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
James Turner
James Turner
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Mother lode lofts
487 posts
Feb 07, 2005
7:21 PM
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Had a conversation with a guy tonight that knows a little about this family and I asked him the scoop, He says that the color projects were a side line (I read that also in a artical by Turner) and that his main line was "Thompsons" out of the the North West. He said that the speed and qaulity was top notch and hard to beat but stability and kitting was a real issue but was getting better, and he didn't let think that Turner let a lot of these out . Everytime the "hot" topic came up I allways say "get what he uses to make the crosses roll" From what I understand Jay Yandel has aquired some of these pure "Thompsons" from Turner and is putting a lot of focus on them and has gotten rid of much of the color stuff according to what I have been told, I havnt talked to Jay in quit a while and this is heresay but it makes sence. So here's my question, Is anyone out there flying any of Turners Pure Stock down from the Thompsons ?
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Feb 07, 2005 7:25 PM
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Arrowslinger
4 posts
Feb 08, 2005
7:56 AM
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Having met James many times and also judging his birds, I feel qualified to say anyone getting birds to fly from him are getting good birds.
With that said...
Many people are confusing the James Thompson and the Lloyd Thompson birds, unless James changed families he was working with Thompson’s from Tony Roberts, John Castro and Frank Reece.
James colored birds (at my last visit 1991) were from Ellis Macdonald and Rodger Baker, I saw some of the "blue laces" fly and spin as well as any.
It has been many years since I have saw James, but this is my recollection as of today.
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Phantom1
95 posts
Feb 08, 2005
12:04 PM
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Hi Scott, I know several people that have the Turner family birds. I recently was given some by a local flier. What are you trying to find out about the family? Eric
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Cliff
46 posts
Feb 08, 2005
3:28 PM
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Scott, Your post contains a host of inaccuracies and heresay that neeeds to be addressed. I have spent a lot of time discussing the origin of the Carolina rollers with guys and I consider myself a source of accurate information. Permit me to lay the rumors to rest once and for all. Jay lives 20 minutes from me and for the past year I have spent many weekends with him discussing, watching and learning. I also traveled the Regional Fall Fly with him. I have also visited James Turner, just this past month in fact, and have had many conversations with him and his long time friend and roller buddy, Don Greene, who has the same family of birds The two men live near each other, in South Carolina, are (both) true southern gentlemen, both are Master Flyers, and both have contributed significantly to the breeding, competitive flying and judging of NBRC and World Cup comps throughout the country, over a lifetime in the hobby, of many years.
The source of this family of birds and most rollers in the Carolinas,was Ed Garret and Bob Welbourne of Greenville, SC. Garrett brought in Lloyd Thompson (Canada) blood lines (a Black WF Badge foundation cock (929)and a Blue check self hen.) Bob Welbourne brought in the original Pensom stock. (A Red bar cock-6878-and a tortoise hen) These birds were top notch spinners and everyone crossed the families, including James Turner. They were long cast birds, one-third again LARGER than the family today. The size was brought down through consistent and tight line breeding. The famous "Almond" bird of Don Simpson, which was not an almond, but a tortoise, was not of the same family lines. Turner's famous Rambo (9646) champion blood line, was the son of the Thompson pair.
Over the years, working with Tony Roberts, James Turner began to bring in ROLLERS, one at a time, that contained genes for a specific desired color modifier. The brown and barless gene came from a hen obtained from Louisville, KY. The Reduced gene from Elis MacDonald of Dover, Alabama. The Faded gene came from Larry Statman of Kentucky. Most other color modifiers came from a breeder who was really into genetics, working at Disney Land and living in Los Angeles, Dal Stone. At first, James isolated or separated that bird's line from the Pensom and Thompson lines that he continued to breed for speed, depth and velocity. He then took the best in roller performance that was bred, and bred it back to the roller with the modifier. He would only keep one best bird with the color modifier, the one with the best type and roll characteristics, for this purpose, and continue to breed best back to best in type and roll quality for generations until he was pleased with the final result in type, in roll quality, depth, speed, & frequency, and in kitting ability for his competitions. Many times this took 5 years of line breeding to do so for that particular color modifier.The original source of the color gene was returned and not randomly inserted into the flock on other breeders. It was used on only one pairing, and then returned. Over many, many years a number of color genes were added and ultimately incorporated into the family in the same way. These guys, themselves, never crossbred rollers to ice pigeons or any other breed!!! There was no attempt to keep the offspring of the foundation pair separate and THERE ARE NO PROGENY OF THE TURNER FAMILY OF ROLLERS, TODAY, THAT CAN BE CONSIDERED SEPARATE AND DISTINCT CONTAINING ONLY THE BLOOD OF THE FOUNDATION PAIR FROM THOMPSON AND PENSOM. Over the years, James Turner and Don Greene tried an occaisional outcross from other outstanding families of birds, but found no noticeable improvements in their own family, in fact only deterioration of roll frequency speed and depth occurred, so these outcrossed birds were culled, since they were inferior to the line bred family of birds as they existed. With the exception of the occasional color gene outcross, the family has been bred tight.
Jay Yandle's family of birds consists of primarily James Turner birds, primarily Indigo and Andalusians, but he has had bred Almonds, Qualmonds, Opals, Reduced and other color modifiers as well. He now has predominanly Indigo and Andalusians, because that is where he found the best percentages for quality, depth and frequency fro the purpose of competition. He has a pair or two that he got from Henry Cook, but keeps that line separate from the Turner line, using them in the kits when they quallify. The birds that Jay has competed with, won with, and placed with, are the Turner family with its variety modifiers. The winning kit of two years ago consisted primarily of Indigo and Adalusians, blues and spread birds. (Remembering your genetics, a bird cannot carry Indigo. It either inherits the gene and shows it, or it does not. Its nestmate may be a blue check, not having inherited the indigo color modifier. Is that bird then a "color bird"? Good question!) It is absolutely a false statement that, as you reported, "Jay has acquired some of these pure Thompsons from Turner and is putting a lot of focus on these and has gotten rid of much of the color stuff." I see them, breeders and flyers alike, most every weekend. They are Indigo, Andalusian, Reduced, RR, Grizzles, blues and spread.
There is no record or reporting from James Turner, Don Greene or Jay Yandle of any specific family problems with kitting and stability, only with individual performers as in any other family, that are, of course, culled. As noted, speed, depth, quality and frequency are top notch and recognized by reputable men with many years of experience as breeders, competitors, judges, and Master Flyers. Hope this clears up some of the confusion and rumor. Cliff
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Mother lode lofts
489 posts
Feb 08, 2005
6:24 PM
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Good informitive post Cliff !!! like I said in my post some was here say I definetly got more solid info from you. There is a little more to it as far as stability and kitting though but thats ok, That will straighted up as more and more fly in the 20 bird fly , and there isn't a "perfect" family out there,we all have areas that we need to work on. So no one kept the "Thompsons" pure out of that area ? why would they not since that is where the goods were and downbreeding in color genes certainly didn't add anything performance wise. Jay didn't end up with any of the pure Thompsons ? , can you ask him about this Cliff,just curious, thanks
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Feb 08, 2005 7:49 PM
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Freddie
25 posts
Feb 08, 2005
7:03 PM
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Below is a post from another board by Joe Bob Stuka to help clear up some of the questions about the S.C, birds.
South Carolina Birds Origins
There are two different lines of "Thompson's" referred to all these years in the Southeast/NC,SC,Ga. Mickey Putman of Ga. had a line that Don Little and Robert Fisher of Ga got from Mickey and made famous in the air. I saw Don Little's and Robert Fisher's around 10 times and they were very good-deep in the 40'-60' range with a lot of very good 20-30 footers also. These birds did not trace back to the Lloyd Thompson of BC. and may be (but only a guess) the plona lines that Ivan said a Lloyd Thompson of NC had. The second line of Lloyd Thompson's that Don Simpson, James Turner and Don Greene made famous in SC( which make up from 3/4 to 63/64ths of what is in most of my birds) did come from Lloyd Thompson of BC birds. Two rich brothers(Lowell, sticks in my mind as their name but could be wrong) from Kansas or Missouri shipped the birds in directly from the BC Thompson. They got out of birds and gave all their Thompson's to Ed Garrett of NC to find homes for. Don Simpson of SC went to Ed's and purchased 2 maybe 4 pair and brought them to SC. Don Simpson then bred em straight and did various crosses with his "Old Almond"(really just a dark tortoiseshell deep/bumping cock that came directly from Bill Pensom as a sqeeeker) line. James Turner, Don Greene and Tony Roberts got their Thompson's from these Don Simpson lines. Carl Hardesty's famous Shooting Star bird he bought from Tony Roberts was from a cock of this SC/Thompson/Pensom stuff bred to a hen of unknown origin that was bought from a pigeon feather merchant from a flea market in Orangeburg, SC. That's the history of the "Thompson's" as told directly to me by Don Little and Don Simpson. Don Simpson is the real/no "sheet" authority of their background.
JoeBob
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Freddie Bennett
Virginia Performing Roller Club
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Slobberknocker
62 posts
Feb 09, 2005
7:57 AM
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Scott,
What exaclty is the point of your original post and where are you trying to go with all of this? Why bring up James Turner? We all know that yours is not a legitimate, non-biased question, so just get to the point.
Bob
Last Edited by Slobberknocker on Feb 09, 2005 7:58 AM
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