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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
Who Axel Sells ?
Who Axel Sells ?
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George R,
17 posts
Feb 09, 2005
7:15 PM
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Some asked me if I have heard of Axel Sells .
Any one know who this person is???
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bluebar
34 posts
Feb 09, 2005
8:45 PM
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Prof. Doc. Axel Sell is one of the most knowledgeable pigeon geneticists in the world. He lives in Germany and has written some books in both English and German. His website (mostly in German, though there are some English articles there) can be found at:
http://www.taubensell.de/
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Cliff
47 posts
Feb 10, 2005
7:56 AM
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Frank, Speaking of pigeon genetics, can you elaborate a little on the reduced color modifier? How is it inherited? Recessive or dominant? Sex-linked? How is the blue-lace line produced? Does it take one to produce one? Thanks Cliff
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bluebar
35 posts
Feb 10, 2005
10:40 AM
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Reduced is a sex-linked recessive. Most of the laced birds I've seen have T-patterns. You do need a reduced to get reduced, but once you add the correct pattern, it's fairly simple.
Frank
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
385 posts
Feb 10, 2005
1:28 PM
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Cliff, to elaborate futher, you can consider the reduced inheritance the same as with dilute which you might be more familiar with. They follow the same protocols, its just the genes and results are different. In our Wests we have the best gray laced pigeons in the world, Gray Lace being reduced spread blue. The blue T-patterns and Velvets tend to broaden the lacing and often gives a yellowish bronze cast to the lower shield area. The effects of reduced and whatever color modifiers are present will change the expression from bird to bird. For some reason it is the lack of pattern (closed color pattern which looks to be self) that when combined with reduced generates the "laced look". Kind of like A + B = C. Well non pattern (self, Velvet, Closed T-Pattern) + Reduced = lacing. Reduced on recessive red produces what we call Peach Laces as the red turns very peachy in color with peach lacing. Same for brown which is a Khaki Lace as the reduced washes the brown into khaki with lacing.
Brian.
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Cliff
48 posts
Feb 10, 2005
2:32 PM
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Excellent posts. Thanks for clearing it up for me guys. So RR acts similarly to spread in expression if lacing with the reduced gene, though they are completely different? Cliff
Last Edited by Cliff on Feb 10, 2005 2:35 PM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
386 posts
Feb 10, 2005
2:51 PM
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Yes, the end results are very similar with the lacing, though the base color and lacing will be different from color to color. The connection with the lacing is as I mentioned above, as it appears to be the result of no visible pattern such as bar or check, basically solid color regards of how you get there. One thing to mention is that reduced has a tendency to lace even on non spread birds, but only on the edge of where solid color is. For example, a reduced blue bar roller will usually have pinkish colored bars with dark gray lacing on the edge. This pinkish color is often the same coloring you will get on a non-spread dominant based colored bird. I hope that didn't confuse the topic..lol.
Brian.
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Cliff
49 posts
Feb 14, 2005
10:38 AM
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Brian, While we're talking patterns and color genes, what causes odd-siding? I just banded my first five squabs and I noticed one is going to odd-sided;looks like spread ash-red with a white side, (wing shield, primary and secondary flights.) Is this an inherited trait or just a ramdom occurrence of color variability? I'm not especially fond of it and would like to avoid it, performance first, of course. Two other questions while I'm at it, if you will bear with me. What do "stork marked flights" look like? What is a "ribbon-tail" or "rimmy-tail"? Thanks!
Last Edited by Cliff on Feb 14, 2005 10:40 AM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
388 posts
Feb 14, 2005
2:09 PM
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Hey Cliff. I am sure Frank could probably answer that much more correctly from the inheritance stand point than I could. Much of what I know has been learned from him. My take on odd sides is basically as you described, a random occurance. Pie bald is a marking but is very vague in how it expresses itself when no set pattern requirement has been followed such as breeding for baldheads using baldheads to baldhead for generations. The marking becomes set for a large percentage of the offspring. Since in rollers we tend not to breed for a set marking, breeding say a blue bar badge with a black self and so on, there is no set marking yet the gene for pie bald can still be there. Therefore you end up with all kinds of variables of pie bald ranging from badges, beards, baldheads, odd sides and so on. But nothing is really set in stone. I raise baldhead wests and breed from about 25 pair of them in a variety of colors. In the last five years I've banded probably 400 baldheads and have only gotten one true odd side. This is an inbred family and the marking was set decades ago, but it can happen. In American Rollers the pie bald marking is badge marked and while we find it common to get a baldhead in flying rollers from a badge x badge mating, from what I understand they do not get any balds at all from those matings which is probably due to the marking being "set". Here's one you might enjoy. I raised a black badge roller hen from a black self cock with two white flights on each wing x a black self hen. I then mated her to a blue bar grizzle badge cock. The insuing offspring included black selfs, black grizzles, black badges, a white with only a few black grizzled feathers and two bellneck marked birds, one being a bellneck grizzle. By not having a set marking the variable of the pie bald were pretty much all over the board and I think in most roller lofts where they breed from pie bald birds they experience similar results. A few years ago I mated an ash red badge cock from Kiser to a blue bar badge hen also from Kiser's family and out of six youngsters, all were selfs, not a single white feather on any one of them. I think you will find unless you breed specifically for balds or badges and selected for just those, you will continue to get an occasional odd side or saddle marked bird. Last year I bred from a great performing oddside hen on a blue check self and got no oddsides, only baldheads and badges. If your oddsides are good, I wouldn't hesitate to breed from them. If you don't like the marking maybe choose a suitable mate that is self in color. Hopefully Frank can elaborate further.
Brian.
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bluebar
37 posts
Feb 14, 2005
3:32 PM
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Thanks Brian, but I think you all put too much faith in my "brilliance" :-)
Fact is -- there is very little known about much of the pattern inheritance. I'm coming to the conclusion that a lot of it is actually the result of interactive alleles. When I did some minor testing in my own loft some ten years ago with swallow marking and baldhead, I got lots of mixed colored birds usually with color only on top of the bird.
My buddy is working with a lot of the Chinese Nasal Tufts and when he mixes various patterns, he gets everything from ringbreast to nun marked. It's going to take a lot of numbers and a lot of actual writing down of what we get to figure some of this out.
At the moment and just from what I've read of others work, I think we can pretty much assume that there are various pattern alleles, i.e., that various mutations appeared at the same spot on the chromosome. In the homozygous state, they produce one effect, in the heterozygous state they produce a second effect, and there may also be some interaction between various mutations on different parts of the same chromosome or different ones. If that sounds like a very "scientific" I don't know?, then you got it right.
We still need people to take shots of what they get from various matings and to document those, either in photos or actually drawing out what's produced. Over time and with some luck, we might figure out how to reproduce just what we want when we want it.
I'd say we are in the same stage with the piebald markings at the moment, that breeders were in back in the mid-1800's with dilute, brown, ash-red and true silver. Those were all mixed up too and it took a lot of years to straighten things out so people realized they were different and could be bred as wanted.
Sorry it ain't the clean wonderful ABC explanations that I'm noted for producing == yeah right ;-) == but I figure reality works better than fantasy in breeding lofts.
Frank
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Cliff
50 posts
Feb 14, 2005
4:57 PM
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Once again, a heartfelt thank you to Brian and Frank for your clarification on odd-siding pie-balding. We are fortunate to have guys like you around to clear up our misunderstandings. Any info on the stork markings or ribbon tail? Cliff
Last Edited by Cliff on Feb 14, 2005 4:58 PM
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bluebar
39 posts
Feb 14, 2005
6:12 PM
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That's easy --
Ribbontail = Ash-red with a bronze and usually, though not always, a dose of recessive red as well. What happens is that the bronze darkens the ash-red to almost an oxblood shade and the ashy bar in the tail is lightened to almost white so you get this really neat white stripe across the tail. You can see a closed tail bird here:
http://www.pigeonworldwide.com/newsite/modules.php?name=cphotogallery
Click on the Tula Ribbontail link or the Rzhev Startail link.
Addendum 2/18/05 Teo has posted some more pics at his site to see an absolutely beautiful shot of ribbontail AND a great look at some deep ash-red colored birds, check out this link:
http://www.porumbei.ro/a_rase_agrement_porumbel.php?id=27
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Stork marked can mean two different things -- it gets its name from the European White Stork (many of our pigeon patterns take their names from wild bird markings)
http://www.naturephotographers.dacscomp.co.uk/whatsnewisrael/White%20stork.jpg
Some stork marked birds, especially in rollers, are homozgyous grizzle birds - so the bird body is mainly white with color showing up mostly at the ends of the flight making it look a bit like a Story, hence the name.
There are also the Color Pigeons, Saxon Stork, http://www.rassetauben-deutschland.de/tauben/storchtaube.htm
which has fully colored flights, much more like the wild stork than is the grizzle pattern.
In rollers, I've never seen this particular marking - ever. Only the homozygous grizzle pattern. Light print tipplers often show "stork marked" flights. http://golubpa.tripod.com/index.html
Frank
Last Edited by bluebar on Feb 18, 2005 7:36 PM
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