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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
Degeneration of Performance
Degeneration of Performance
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Alan Bliven
89 posts
Feb 12, 2005
5:06 PM
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If one started out with good stock, how many generations does it take before the performance of a roller strain will be forever ruined without selective breeding from the air?
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Alan
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J_Star
204 posts
Feb 12, 2005
5:24 PM
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Alan, as fast as two seasons. It don't take much to ruin a good strain.
Jay
Last Edited by J_Star on Feb 12, 2005 5:26 PM
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RodB
57 posts
Feb 12, 2005
11:23 PM
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Hi
If it were a good tight family an outcross can do it in one generation even if they were selected from the air , but
with a good family or strain bred within the family, this would take longer to go past the point of repair if they are still bred pure of blood , you can loose the performance straight off on the first breeding but the performance can be brought back if its not to far back in the pedigree , like Jay said 2 seasons from untested stock , I wouldnt like feeding them .
Rod
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Alan Bliven
90 posts
Feb 12, 2005
11:28 PM
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The reason I ask is because I was speaking with a guy who has a rare performance breed I am interested in but he hasn't ever selected the stock birds from the air He's had that strain for eight years but he don't fly any of them. He believes they will perform but I have serious doubts.
I would tend to agree that after even two seasons you'd have a huge percentage of culls.
BTW... How's the Horner birds doing? I am about to get another kit. I haven't even flown my first one yet, I had a bad case of canker and some other stuff go through all my lofts and I'm just now getting a handle on it.
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Alan
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nicksiders
99 posts
Feb 13, 2005
12:12 AM
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If you stay with the same family good performance can be bread back into them over time. It seems to cycle out and then cycle back in after a few seasons.
Many breeders loose patience and destroy thier current family, but good selective breeding continued with same family can bring back the performance.
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Mother lode lofts
497 posts
Feb 13, 2005
8:38 AM
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Alan this is a very good topic. As far as Birminghams I would say that it is measured in generations bred rather than years. It is to easy to get side tracked with these birds and fall into traps within the loft. It takes disipline not to. It is to easy to breed towards birds due to a pedigree,color or inbreed towards a good one that is or was in some elses loft just for the sake of doing it when it may not even be working out.
Take 514, that bird has been dead what 40 years ? and you still have guys talking about having inbred 514 and all you here from them is 514 514 514 514 and nothing else. What happened to all the good birds below it ? and the foundations that should have been bred around them.
514 lines due to pedigree breeding is and has produced probaby more culls than any bird on the planet. And on the same hand some of the finest families in the country have her behind thier birds. What is the difference ? it's selection, some breed for performance and others breed cause it looked good on paper, what is funny is the ones that bred it properly never mention 514 except in passing conversation it might come up.
Another is useing someones "name" on your birds and breeding towards that name,and grabbing up birds with such names attached just "because" this is another big pit fall, just because your birds go back to someone it doesn't mean squat. It is up to you to pull the goods out of your birds and then they are your problem for good or bad. I see guys using peoples names and not even a single bird in thier loft even came out of that persons loft, or breeding for generations and still useing someone elses name. The best lofts in the world can send out birds till the cows come home, it doesn't mean that they have any value in the stock loft.
Another trap is breeding towards some birds that strikes your fancy, which could be color, eye or any combination of these, or you just like the looks of a particular bird. And then you get those that want to add this color gene and that color gene.
Another trap is frequency and or depth, all of which are pluses but is meaningless unless everything else is right as far as roll from start to finish and kitting.
Inbreeding is another, inbreeding is a valuable tool but some do it like it is a badge of honor and will put the skids on a good family quick if not done properly.
Another is Stuck on birds that just don't have it and have to many faults, and then downbreeding another to try and fix.
I have fallen into many of these traps myself (not the color gene) and I know how easy it is, all of the above are setbacks, So we have to ask ourselfs with "HONESTY" , " WHY DO I WANT TO BREED OUT OF THIS BIRD ? "
It is easy to ruin a family and I have seen it done more than once, what was the trap ? inbreeding towards foundation blood that was in someone elses loft. The sole purpose was jamming up the blood but wasn't flying them out properly and selecting properly. I learned off of that mans mistake as I was falling into the same trap. All I can do is thank God for other peoples mistakes to learn from.
If you want to succed with these birds you better breed for one thing and one thing only and that is performance. Because if there are other agendas you aren't going to have much even if you started with the best. This stuff only applys if you want to compete with the best and be consistant. Some are just happy doing everything that is counter productive and then just "talking" about how good they are. The bottom line is, is if you want the best that your birds have to offer than "nothing" else can play in. And that means nothing. To do so you are making compromises somewhere I can garrantee that !
Ironicly a lot of these setbacks are used as sales tools by some, for others it is just ego. Go figure
Just my opinion here and maybe a little something to think about.
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Feb 14, 2005 5:33 PM
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JUrbon
59 posts
Feb 13, 2005
11:41 AM
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Allen, Great question. Let me see if I can add a little bit more light on the subject. I personally do not feel that anything will be lost that is irrepairable however that just depends on how much time you are wanting to put back in and and if the family was that good in the first place. There are so many quality families out there that might be aesier than starting over with your existing family. I have always felt that if the birds that you are working with are good enough than you should try to work within them and stay away from distant outcrosses unless you are looking for hybred vigor and then you generally only go 1 generation with that anyway. If you are not happy with them than find a family that you will be happy with and dont waste the time trying to recreate something that is already out there for the taking. Just my opinion and opinions vary. Joe Urbon
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Alan Bliven
91 posts
Feb 13, 2005
12:31 PM
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Great responses, thank you!
Mother Lode, you sure kit the jackpot on that post! You just wrote a condensed book on the pitfalls of breeding. I'm going to print that one out and save it.
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Alan
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Phantom1
98 posts
Feb 14, 2005
2:56 PM
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Scotty,
I've recently made some decisions to improve my birds, and the family that I currently have. I've had the pleasure of meeting some really great folks near me that have really great birds! That being said, your comment: "Some are just happy doing everything that is counter productive and then just "talking" about how good they are." Do you feel that because there are some that don't just don't have the Best of the Best right here, right now, today, that we're all counter-productive? If so, counter-productive to what? To you and what you're trying to accomplish? What am I doing wrong? What can you call us all out on? I'd really like to understand what that is. Because for the life of me, I just can't.
Eric
Last Edited by Phantom1 on Feb 14, 2005 2:58 PM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
389 posts
Feb 14, 2005
4:01 PM
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Eric, I think the answer to your question lies in what you personally want to accomplish. If you understand that and know exactly what it is, then you should have little problem following a path that you feel leads you in a positive, productive manner. I pretty much agree with what Scott says and it is very true, but as it directly relates to the search for perfect performance and having the full grasp of it. Intuition is a major part of breeding good and improved rollers, as is with any type of husbandry. Some people have it and some simply do not. I am not stating that you don't, just presenting that as a true fact that seldom if ever is discussed or even understood.
Breeding towards an expectation and goal such as ultimate performance, especially from a team aspect is equal to having an iron constitution. Intution clears the fog of uncertainty and lack of understanding and helps to "see and know" what is required to take place to get to that point. It clarfiies and strenghtens desire, the desire you have set for yourself and your birds. From the performance aspect it takes steadfast dedication to your instincts, and those instincts should focus on nothing but performance. The counter productive aspect is when people get side tracked into other aspects, other trains of thoughts such as pedigree breeding, breeding for anything other than performance, or as Scott mentioned, name breeding. Most of the flyers who are truly successful in performance flying, most specifically on the competition level, have an instinct to know their birds and have that gut feeling of how to mate them. Their eyes in the sky show them the signs and their recognition of what has taken place in the breeding pen paves the way for understanding and decision making. I know of no one who has ever been successful by pedigree breeding or any other form of selection based on a vision or concept other than true, seen with your own eyes performance. I can tell you from my own experience that just about no bird that I acquired that came from a specific family and used just because it did, or was bred from some great lineage, has ever worked out to be worth a damn. There are exceptions and there are few good ones, BUT the birds I selected from the air at my own lofts and at others while seeing a bird I suspected might work really well, usually do work out to a greater degree. My goal is solid working, great performing rollers that last. That is my goal and what I am breeding towards. If I were to deviate into making matings based on a pedigree or just inbreed for the sake of inbreeding, or make a mating because it is the proper color mate I would be cutting my own wrist. I know because I have tried it and it just doesn't work. A goal is something you place out there ahead of you. You can see it and between you and that goal is a line, a straight path that must be followed to get there. If a person detours into other realms, the focus is lost and the length of time to arrive at the goal is lengthened, diluted or even abolished entirely. The key here is to understand your own personal goal. Some are easier to achieve depending on what they are, others are always a moving target. One way to know your desire is to ask yourself if good enough is ever really good enough. I like to think it can always be better, but personally I like challenges. Others may not embrace them as much. Bottom line is know what you want and do not take your eyes off of it. Just some thoughts I wanted to share with you.
Brian.
Last Edited by MCCORMICKLOFTS on Feb 14, 2005 4:06 PM
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Mother lode lofts
499 posts
Feb 14, 2005
5:01 PM
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Eric keep in mind that posts such as that is mainly me thinking outloud , and a lot of times it gets me thinking about what I am doing or what I have done, Eric I have done a lot of counter productive move's in the breeding loft. At the time I just didn't realize it, You don't think that I havn't held a bird and thought something like " boy I love the look of this bright orange eye with horn beak on a sleek dark checker" or "boy is this bird jammed up from such and such" Does that make it a canidate for the stock loft? No , but it is easy to wish it a little to much and make exscuses to be such. That is just one of hundreds of little traps that we can fall into. Now if performance isn't your only objective then that post doesn't apply, Eric, every single of those lines I have myself fallen into to a degree at one time or another. As for your question, read that I wrote " the best that "your" birds have to offer " and I also made mention "if you want to compete with the best" . Eric I can't tell what you are or aren't doing wrong, just has you can't tell me the same, these are all things that "we" have to figure out on our own. But also most of what I know I learned from others giving me something to think about. And the same applys to most of what I write, some of it can be used and probably most of it can be shit canned or maybe some of it might make sence down the road for some. Eric everything I do with my birds is work in progress, and there is no such thing as perfection with our birds, they can allways be better one way or another. Now Eric you made mention of "improving" the family you have , what is the plan ? I'm assuming that it evolves around adding other birds, are they adding something or are you flat out downbreeding what you want to put in ? These are the type of questions that we have to ask ourself.
Hey did you hook up with Don Sutton ? who all have you met there ?
Scott
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Feb 14, 2005 5:35 PM
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Cliff
51 posts
Feb 14, 2005
8:02 PM
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Brian and Scott, Man, you guys have given us some real words of wisdom here in the management of our lofts and breeding. I, for one, plan to take the things you said to heart. Thanks for sharing. Cliff
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Phantom1
99 posts
Feb 14, 2005
9:03 PM
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Scott,
Thus far, I've been up to Mr. Gary Roberts' place twice and Don's place once. I've seen both their birds fly. Gary was kind enough to send me home with 6 birds. My intentions are to work that blood into mine. Fly all the offspring. Cull hard what doesn't look good. And then keep going to improve the family I want to see in the loft and in the air.
Brian,
You made mention that that the goal is out there for us all. And the shortest distance between two points is a direct line. That can't be denied. However, if I were to do that (to me), I'd be taking the easy way out. I enjoy the challenge of what I've worked so hard over the years to get in my birds. I could have easily just gone and bought something and said, "Okay, gee! That was fun and a quick $50", and have what I wanted. So what if I choose to deviate off the coarse a bit. As long as I'm honest with myself and those that I help along the way, however still meet my objective, who's to say I did it wrong? Who's to say I did it right?
Eric
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
391 posts
Feb 14, 2005
10:36 PM
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Hey Eric. The meaning of a straight line being between you and a goal isn't meant to imply the "shortest" route or "quickest way to success". What it implies, and maybe I didn't use the right terminology, is that it requires tunnel vision, thus the straight line. You stand in one place and see your goal, you focus on it intently and do not become swayed by outside interests or other factors. Yes, you do have to try other things, or make adjustments, that is a given, but also part of the path to achieving the goal. It's the side steps one takes, the options that deviate from the focus that can screw things up if a person is not careful in their practice.
I doubt very seriously that you or anyone could take the short route and buy birds that will meet the goal of success, for the goal is always continuing to distance itself from your satisfaction the moment you arrive on its doorstep. A little taste of complacency can do that. Getting better birds can shorten that path for some, but the rest of the journey is up to you and you alone and not many actually complete it unless they have that God given intuition and understanding of where those birds need to go and how to take them there. Focus is so important in competitive rollers that it really is one of the most underrated aspects of this sport.
Your last sentence is very important..."As long as I'm honest with myself and those that I help along the way, however still meet my objective, who's to say I did it wrong? Who's to say I did it right?"
No one should say what you do wrong or right, for that is entirely up to you and based upon your own assessment of where you were, the journey you took and the satisfaction you derive from your hobby. The wrongs and rights are different from flyer to flyer, but some things are pretty set in stone overall and shared as common knowledge. I think most who do have a goal to put together a great kit or create a great family of rollers will confess that experience teaches them the difference between right and wrong, or what was a good decision and what was a bad one. The results of your decisions will usually show themselves in the skies above your loft.
In the big picture of roller flying, the goal or reaching personal satisfaction will differ, often greatly. Each has their own agenda to some degree or another. In the competitive and perfection of performance, the menu decreases to fewer variables which have been proven over time for the most part. There are always going to be obstacles and there will always be one man's way versus another, but often the paths will parallel one another. I always try to tell myself these are pigeons, keep it simple. Don't overcomplicate what I don't need to complicate and still to this day I have to tell myself to follow my gut instincts over jumping to conclusions or getting side tracked by a unique thought or deviating from my plan. For me it is a bit easier to understand because I am not looking to set the roller world on fire, just to breed a better kit than the year before.
Eric, what it boils down to is that if you set a goal for yourself, set one you can see. Then focus down that tunnel and if you are prudent in your endeavors you will no doubt reach it or get very close. The greatest flyers I know are the most focused, beaded individuals I have ever met. There are times when it behoves us to take a few pages from their notes and apply them to our program. Sorry to ramble...LOL.
Brian.
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RodB
58 posts
Feb 15, 2005
1:24 AM
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Oh so true Brian , very hard for many beginners to grasp , with the only true shortcut a person can take in the quest for performance is to start with foundation stock built on stone , to start with ordinary birds will add many years to ones journey not that it carnt be done , but with some stock you wont live long enough to be able to breed silk purses out of those sows ears no matter how selective you are ,it all depends on what you are chasing , the sport caters for all and sundry from weekend flyers to fanatics striving for formula one performance , ultimately you will only get out what you put in .
Rod
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Mother lode lofts
501 posts
Feb 15, 2005
10:07 AM
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There are no shortcuts with these birds and the difficulty starts with trying to obtain good stock, that alone is a feat within it's self because even in the best lofts you have to sort through them for a few years to even find what is or is not working , nor will there ever be an end to woking with them within our lofts as there is no such thing as "I have arrived " these birds are just to complicated and there are to many twists and turns within the breeding and trying to move forward, many of the turns that we take go the wrong way just when we thought that we were on to something. Nor can you make chicken soup out of chicken shit. If you want to race the Kentucky derby are you going to do it by taking a race horse and breeding it with a shetland pony ? or can you make race horses out of Shetland ponys ? On top of it one can take the entire loft of the best in the country and never be able to fly a decent kit out of them, while others progress as they learn.
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Feb 15, 2005 10:18 AM
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2701Dunn
14 posts
Feb 15, 2005
10:32 AM
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Hey guys this question is sort of off the subject but not really. Anyways, how do you know as far as if a kit or certain birds are not going to perform? For example, some blood lines have the late rollers. How long do you wait out till you can say hey this bird is a cull and get rid of it or whatever anyone does. Like after a year or a few months or what ?? When is quiting time for some?
Thanks
Cameron
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J_Star
206 posts
Feb 15, 2005
11:24 AM
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Cameron,
It all depends on the person patience and how many birds he goes through. If you only have a few to work with, then your patience might be longer than normal. If you breed allot of birds in a season, then you wouldn't and couldn't have the time nor the place to work with and keep allot of birds. Therefore, your patience would be much less. There is family of birds that could take up to three years for the true performance to show itself, but allot of fancier cull those kinds because they want the early performers due to their preference to cycle through the offspring in search of the ideal. Early meaning 4-7 months. I would say...
Jay
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