nicksiders
117 posts
May 24, 2005
9:47 PM
|
I have a hen who possesses an extremely tight spin (one of the best I have seen). She is also very frequent and very deep. BUT, she also rolls down frequently and has thus far survived. She has hit schrubry each time saving her from the hard ground. She has been injured, but is pretty much healthy. Would you breed her or cull her?
Generally I cull, but her form and style is so darn good. I have been hesitant. Cull?................or not?
|
fhtfire
134 posts
May 24, 2005
10:59 PM
|
Man.....Just remember this...control is one of the big things you should look for. I myself would try and feed her up and rest her and see what happens...is she young...she may grow out of it...A true roll down does not recover...LOL! I myself would drop the hammer if she was an older bird..but if it is a young bird...I have a lot more patience.
I am a little more picky then most...But..it also does not hurt a thing to raise a few birds out of it. It depends a lot on what you have...if you are hurting in depth and velocity..it may help.
My advice...look at your whole goal....will it help you obtain that goal....also is it young or old.....if it is old...it could be falling apart. It is so hard to give advice when I do not know your vision or what you are lacking. Just look at the overall picture and not just one bird. The question I ask is...this....is this the best bird that I have.....is this bird going to take me where I want to go...is it just a phase...or fly it until it bites the dust...then your question will be answered for sure.
rock and ROLL
Paul Fullerton
|
MCCORMICKLOFTS
2 posts
May 25, 2005
12:13 AM
|
Nick, that thought has left many men wondering...and others taking a chance.
Your post reminds me of a situation that was exactly the same as yours.
Part 1.
Several years ago I raised this little hen that came into the roll early and hit every time she rolled, which was once, then she came back to the box. I fed her up and tried her again a month later. She was fine for a while, then did it again. She was very thin framed and very young so I fed her up again. By now she was 6 months old and with a little feed and some rest, started to fly the time and rolled less. As the months went by she became a phenomenal spinner. Stone cold balled it up and very deep at times. Problem was, she was too frequent for that speed and coupled with her small frame, she simply would wear down and end up hitting something in the yard.
I planned on culling her or letting her cull herself. Then one day I saw her hit a roll that I can still see in my mind to this day. I came up with a plan. I had a very broad shouldered, strong cock bird from the same family which I felt would be a good (guessing) mate for this hen in an attempt to see if I could reproduce that spin, but with a frame to support it.
The result from that year was several really good rollers, 5 of which were in my comp kits for the last two years. At one point there were seven of them. Not one single one ever rolled down other than the occasional going out or coming in mistake. Only one killed itself, making that landing mistake. And two I never saw roll at all, both were cocks. Yet, not one single bird I raised off of her rolled with the dynamic speed that she did. Could it have been the resulting medium frame instead of the tiny frame she had?
The consistently deepest bird I have for the last three years off of that hen is the very first bird I raised off of her. He and two of his sisters are now stocked and all three are quite a bit larger framed than she was.
Part 2.
Two years ago I bred from a pair that threw nothing but super hot knuckle heads, most of which rolled down or were just out of control. For a moment, there was an exception in the form of a blue check hen which could spin so damn fast I prayed she could hold together. She didn't and would roll down on her first roll every time out, regardless of height. She had an uncanny ability to not hit anything lethal. Usually after that she would return to the kit and often, not always, but often, be just fine and put on one hell of a show for 10-15 minutes. She was high maintenence to keep in the air. Frustration set in and soon she was in the cull pen. Then after thinking about the little tort hen from Part 1, I thought I would give her a try on a cock from the same family that had produced more shorts and stiffs than any cock I owned. The results were four offspring, three of which rolled down, completely, and one that is about as close to the ragged edge as you can get. Once she gets past her first roll, she can hang all day long.
But, being not fond of those types of percentages, that blue check hen was sent down the road.
Moral of the story, Nothing is set in stone when it comes to rollers. Breed um, fly um, take notes, repeat. Don't ever be afraid to take a gamble with a hot roller if you think you have a comparable mate for it. A roll down is a roll down, but heat in a weak bird can be useful if, and only if, you are willing to try something and see where the chips fall the following year. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it don't. You'll never know unless you take a chance.
You have to have heat, without it you will eventually end up with shorts and stiffs. That heat has to come from somewhere. If it works, it's satisfying to see the results. If it doesn't, the cull bag is very easy to open and close. And there will always be a tomorrow and another round of youngsters to put your hope in. And I guarantee you there will be a roll down or two in that bunch you weren't expecting.
Brian.
|
birdman
12 posts
May 25, 2005
6:33 AM
|
Nick,
I had a hen a few years back that came into the roll early, deep, and frequent. She bumped alot and was injured several times in her first year from hitting bushes, tree limbs, etc... but after the first moult she straightened out and flew fine for two more years with no problems. If I were you, I don't think that I would cull the bird yet. If the spin is as good as you indicate then experiment with the bird a little. If you breed it and don't like the young then you can cull them, but on the other hand you could get a nice suprise.
Russ
|
motherlodelofts
16 posts
May 25, 2005
8:23 AM
|
I never ever breed out of such birds , for me breeding out of culls is the furthest thing from my mind.
If the bird is young I keep flying them in seconday teams to see if they straighten out and I'll do this until I get tired of them,even if they get thier act together generally they will still give you problems here and there.
I'm looking for good "solid" birds when I'm looking at stocking a bird , I would'nt even consider a bird such as this , in fact I would be asking myself "should I cull it now or later " , When you consider stocking a bird the only thing you should be thinking is "yea I want more just like this one"
Just my opinion
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on May 25, 2005 8:24 AM
|
MCCORMICKLOFTS
3 posts
May 25, 2005
8:41 AM
|
Yah, but when you stock a bird, how many "more like this one" do you really get from those birds? Be honest. Being militant with selection is one thing. Cutting yourself short on possibilities is another. Nothing changes, it is still as easy to cull as it is to keep. And, as the old saying goes, one man's cull is another man's stock bird. So true.
Brian.
|
motherlodelofts
17 posts
May 25, 2005
8:52 AM
|
I get enough to not even consider breeding out of such a bird , nothing militant about it at all, stocking a bird should "not" come lightly and the last thing that I want to do is breed a problem bird.
For me if it goes in stock it has prooven itself and has passed the tests of time. Even if problems don't arise in the first generation somewhere down the road more than likely you will be able to trace problem birds back to problem birds such as this.
again just my opinion you bald baby butt head LOL
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on May 25, 2005 8:54 AM
|
spinnerpigeon
8 posts
May 25, 2005
10:34 AM
|
Hey Nick,
I would give it a try. No one is going to breed the "perfect" bird. Every bird has something we slightly dont like or something that is "imperfect." I would give the bird a shot. Just my 2 cents.
Caleb
Last Edited by spinnerpigeon on May 25, 2005 10:35 AM
|
birdman
13 posts
May 25, 2005
10:40 AM
|
Problem birds can and do come from your very best stockbirds too. I wouldn't be so quick to sell the bird short. Nick, If the birds roll is the best you've seen and everything else about the bird is good, then bumping when coming in seems like a minor issue to deal with. I'm not talking about building a family around this bird or stocking it, but it would be worth a try to take a few rounds and see how it all shakes out in the youngsters. If it kits well, flys the time, has good frequency, and rolls as good as you say, then give it a try. On the other hand, if it is rolling all the way down from any height, then I would definitely not breed from it. My 2 cents.
Russ
|
nicksiders
119 posts
May 25, 2005
2:32 PM
|
Thanks guys.
Brian - this bird fits your "chapter 1" (LOL). It is small; thin; young; and a tort.
I am going to rest and feed her a few days and put her back up.
Scott - I hear what your saying. If she doesn't get herself straight I will probably cull.
I will say she sure can put on a show and I may use her as a single bird show for family and visitors(those that are non pigeon people). The very instant she starts her roll she is at full tilt.........makes your jaw hang open.
I wonder if it is because she is so small that she doesn't have the power to pull out of it?
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
215 posts
May 26, 2005
3:25 AM
|
Nick.I wouldn,t be in any hurry to cull this hen.If it rolls as good as anything you have seen I would breed from her.Or at least keep flying her for another year.I have culled rollers like this because I listened to people telling me that they were culls and shouldn,t be bred from.After a couple of years and learning the family I was culling good rollers that the problem was all me.
I remember having a kit of 11 Culls that I would fly first for the Hawks and wound up having 5 of the 11 turn out better than what I had picked to fly.LOL.
If you don,t need to breed from her thats one thing but if she is the best you have to work with don,t give it another thought.The roll is the hardest thing to get.You can always breed for Control,Frequency,Type etc.later on.There is no shortcut to raising rollers so don,t be afraid to try different things.Just have fun on the long journey.LOL.If this hen is giving you the style of roll you are looking for go for it.If you have something better to breed from just fly her and if she is that tight and fast she will cull herself.David
|
siddiqir
4 posts
May 26, 2005
7:33 AM
|
I agree with Scott putting roll down in the breeding program(no matter how good it is) will produce more roll downs and with in few years the kit boxes would have nothing but roll downs.
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
217 posts
May 26, 2005
12:56 PM
|
Sid.There is a big difference in a Rolldown and a bird that Rolls down. David
|
fhtfire
135 posts
May 26, 2005
1:39 PM
|
You are so true...A true Rolldown is one that never flys again! Lawn Dart baby. A bird that rolls down....is one that hits while taking off or landing...or maybe a little worn out from working hard and forgets that it is flying at 50' instead 0f 450' LOL!
At least that is what I think?
rock and ROLL
Paul Fullerton
|
birdman
15 posts
May 26, 2005
3:43 PM
|
Some of Pensom's last writings describe fanciers he knew that either flew top birds or had supplied him with top birds at one time. He describes one old friend as buying a house and building his loft on a nice grassy knoll that was soft and green all year long. His purpose for placing the loft on the grassy knoll, according to Pensom, was that if one of his birds made a 'mistake' and came all the way down, the grass would offer a softer place to hit and lessen the possibility of severly injuring itself. At least that's the way I remember the story. It sounds like the old timer knew that some birds would bump and made allowances for their mistakes.
|
Leo
Member
35 posts
May 26, 2005
4:52 PM
|
TRY this with birds that want to 'loft sit' or rolldown,take these birds in hand, release your kit, drive these birds 1/8 of a mile down the road, and let them straight line' back for a few days..This does good things for their attitude, keeping in mind the molt, or be conciderate of their temporary problems,ON occasion youll experience a "HUMPTY" there is no way to cure this problem,. I havent raised one for several yrs,THEY are easy to spot,after flying.....LEO
|
Velo99
2 posts
May 31, 2005
7:43 PM
|
Here is my roll down rule.
Roll or Die! Easy enough.
I have a litle tiny squeaker sized blue bar hen that smokes em for 20 25 feet. She is just about a year old now has great control and rubber bands right back if the wind isn`t too strong.
When she was about 6 mos and coming in she would bump, and rolldown occasionally. Being a lucky bird she survived all of her encounters with the loss of only a few tail feathers.
If I had marked her as a rolldown she would have never been the bird she is now. I tried to breed her but she is not mother material and I really don`t wanna pass that on either.
Anyway MTC
v99
|
motherlodelofts
25 posts
May 31, 2005
8:40 PM
|
Good post!!! there is a huge difference between a youngbird going through a learning curve coming into the roll and a chronic problem bumper or rolldown.
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on May 31, 2005 8:57 PM
|
nicksiders
120 posts
May 31, 2005
10:38 PM
|
What some are saying: If they rolldown, but do it with style and are young you would keep flying them to see if they can pull out of it. If they don't stop doing it; cull 'em.
How long would you fly them still rolling down until they are placed in the garbage can. A month? 6 months? A year?
Would you ever bread a bird that has a history of rolldown?
If you use the "roll or die" philosophy does the rolldown meet the criteria of having roll thus you keep them?
|
Velo99
3 posts
Jun 01, 2005
5:06 AM
|
Usually you don`t have to cull them. They do it without assistance. Hence "roll or die".
I would never put a rolldown in the breeder loft.
v99
|
J_Star
4 posts
Jun 01, 2005
5:43 AM
|
A Chronic problem bumpers are the birds that do not adjust their spinning distance, as they should. If they roll 20', they will always roll that distance. Therefore, they will bump when they are leaving the kit or landing. Rolldown, just don't have the brakes developed and never will. Bumpers will always be bumpers but you can live with until they break their tail, then the bird is junk. Rolldown are just suicidal in nature.
Jay
|
rollerpigeon1963
6 posts
Jun 01, 2005
7:11 AM
|
Jay and others,
A rolldown is a rolldown in my opinion. No matter what it has overcome or happened in the past. Now about birds locking on a certain distance is ok for some. But I had and still have birds of multi-depth. This means if its over an object it may just roll 5' and when in open sky it will roll 30'. I have a few birds that are locked on some deep depths, like 60' but they are not as frequent and they only roll at higher elevations. Which in my book is not a bird to breed from. Because you are looking for birds that work as a team.
There is a fine line between rolldown and a good roller. The only difference is one has control and one don't. To breed from a bird that has rolled down you are breeding that control out of your family. And since you have been breeding your best why set yourself backwards. The reason why most of the hardcore breeders say don't breed from birds like that is they have been down that road before. And they know the effects you will get when you do something like that.
These are just my opinion and I don't want to push it on no one but just remember your breeding to get a solid team that works. And one that shows your hard work when ever you turn them out for others to watch.
Brian Middaugh
|
motherlodelofts
26 posts
Jun 01, 2005
7:39 PM
|
Nick I will give them a week or two , with my birds the more problems they have coming into the roll, the more the chances of them being problematic birds later on here and there.
I have one bird in the A team now that I thought was a pure rolldown as a youngster , I was just to lazy to cull it, about a week or two later it hit the air and is a fine kitbird but will pull a bad shot here and there expecially if the kit sits for any amount of time. Never will that bird be bred out of , some birds are just forever kit birds.
Generally when I stock a bird it is all that I want a bird to be and is a bird that has never been a head ache.
With some birds though they can be a real pain until they get a handle on the roll, to me these are just kitbirds and not "stock" material, I don't stock any problem birds nor do I mate trying to "fix" problem birds , When I stock a bird it is due to wanting more just like it.
|
nicksiders
121 posts
Jun 01, 2005
10:55 PM
|
Good posts. You guys put things in good prospective. I think when you have a young bird with style and velocity you get awstruck in the roll dept even though it rolls down. I will keep flying her, but I will not use her as a stock bird.
Some birds are TOO hot and are difficult to handle. They will not really help you compete, but you can enjoy them in the backyard. I definitly don't want a loft with difficult birds.
Thanks,Nick
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
228 posts
Jun 03, 2005
3:59 AM
|
Nick.I don,t understand how you could enjoy a bird in the backyard but still the bird wasn,t good enough to compete with.Either it is or it isn,t.If its that much of a problem bird how can you watch it and still enjoy the other kit birds at the same time.David
|
motherlodelofts
31 posts
Jun 03, 2005
7:21 AM
|
Nick v99 has a point , it is rare that I cull a "young" problem bird do to in stability unless it is obvious that they aren't getting over it and contiue to hurt themselfs, they either work through it or they don't.
Sometimes such birds become "geat" kitbirds. You have to have "some" heat in the birds, but I won't breed out of such birds because they are to far on the other side of the line which you will get , if you don't get such birds here and there you are probably on the stiff side.
Many time's your problem birds are hard frequent rollers, But if they have a problem it is due to the being possesed by the roll, for stock I'm looking for birds roll hard and that can handle the roll both physicaly and mentally (mental glue). You are looking to build a foundation and that will move you forward, for me problem birds are a major pain as you never know when they are going to end up hurt or dead , kitting with such birds also becomes an issue which in turn can create bad habits with other birds.
With me it just hits a point of "I've had enough of this bird" or "this bird looks like it is getting a handle on things " like I said earlier some of these make great kitbirds just not breeders. But a bird that won't straighten out all all is nothing short of a cull in my book.
Like I said the whole idea of developing your family is to build a solid foundation and to try and purge the faults, not to add faults and then try to cover up to only have it pop up here and there, because normally faults then will show up on birds that nut it up. What good is that ?
|
nicksiders
122 posts
Jun 03, 2005
11:25 PM
|
David - The primary reason for me to be in this hobby is my own personal enjoyment. Competing is secondary. I often put up single birds that have traits that would not help the team, but have parts of thier performance that I enjoy watching. I would not put up any bird I knew would enjure themself. This particular bird I rested; feed vigorously; and put her back up. She did not strike the earth or any manmade objects, but I feel she is still too hot to help the team. She may change as she matures and in the mean time I will continue to enjoy her performance as a single bird hence "back yard enjoyment".
Scott - I understand what your saying. I am not going to breed for this type of problem bird so I am not going to breed this particular bird. I may use her in my kit(s) if she can "cool down" a little bit with a few more weeks of maturity. Time will tell.
Thanks,Nick
|
big al
4 posts
Jun 08, 2005
9:58 PM
|
I fly them until they cull themselves but never breed with them. There are too many great roller breeders around to obtain birds from for anyone to have to settle for instability.
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
247 posts
Jun 09, 2005
1:46 AM
|
Nick,Al. Is it Instability or Inmature? I have had several of this type develop into great performers.I also have bred from this type and never had a problem other than taking longer to mature.Once they did they were O.K.
I have said before there is a difference in a Rolldown and a bird that rolls down.Some get the idea that a bird that rolls down should be culled.Thats all that I have heard preached to me. Yet Scott says that some will make good kit birds.And they do.And I say if they go on to make good kit birds they can be bred from and you won,t be going backward with your breeding program. David
|
Mongrel Lofts
9 posts
Jun 09, 2005
10:22 AM
|
Good Topic Nick,
Here is my take from the families of birds I have seen.. Many have developed a line of birds that are controlled by the roll. These birds come into a good roll long before they are physically or mentally able to handle the roll. In these lines of birds, backing of flying them much often helps them gain the strength to handle the roll, but they will for the most part always be unstable birds, just not as unstable as they were as youngsters.. Developing this type of controlled by the roll family was and is a choice. If you are stocking birds that had bumping and control problems early on, your breeding towards and setting your foundation as a controlled by the roll, not in control of the roll stud of rollers.
The in control of the roll birds, come in steady. Flipping then spinning at will.. A couple might call a bad shot, but it will be a bad shot, not a few unstable months..having to be lock them up. Not fly them to much or too little or they will surely bump again. It would surprise you how many are willing to deal with unstable rollers, as they think its the only way to have frequent deep rollers. It takes a breeder to understand the difference between birds that are in control of the roll and those that are possessed by the roll.
Its not such a fine line between a good roller in control of the roll, and a bird out of control and possessed by the roll,, In reality, they are a canyon apart in my opinion. One is always a pleasure and bird you can count on to roll hard, Regularly, kit and come home safely.. The other is always having to be coddled and babied and still it often hits the ground on release and when coming back to the loft. One is a pleasure and the other is always a problem your hoping to fix... One is worthy of the stock loft, the other Is like watching car racing hoping not to see a wreck,, But knowing full well the wreck is coming, just hoping its not today!!! LOL
So Nick, we all have to decide what kind of stud we want in our lofts.. Controlled by the roll, or in control of the roll? The choice before you, will decide the future of your birds.. Thats the fun of it, we all get to make our studs the kind of birds we enjoy..
I will just leave you with this last thought, the guy that crashes, rarely wins the race!! Mongrel
|
nicksiders
130 posts
Jun 09, 2005
11:09 AM
|
Mongrel - Outstanding post, my man...........outstanding
|
motherlodelofts
53 posts
Jun 09, 2005
11:15 AM
|
I agree , very good post !!!!!
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
250 posts
Jun 09, 2005
11:17 AM
|
Kenny.I am glad you have it all together.But I don,t see where you have done really well in the flys with having it all figured out.It is one thing to have it figured out on paper but another to get it all together with the rollers.They just won,t hold still like a piece of paper.LOL.
I know you have won some flys but shouldn't you be able to do better after all these years of breeding to your way of thinking?Not trying to chop at you but it does make me think that maybe breeding that tight is not the answer either.David
|
motherlodelofts
54 posts
Jun 09, 2005
12:14 PM
|
Dave, Dave, Dave,
2nd W/C finals , 4 th W/C finals and I beleive a 6th W/C finals , 11 bird (kiddie fly LOL) National finals Champ , NBRC master flyer , that is just off of the top of my head and doesn't include regional placements and wins or 20 bird final placements.
Roy Edmonds also won the 20 bird national championship flying "only" Kennys birds, Jack Meyers fon the I-5 fly (entire West coast including North West) flying Kennys birds.
Another flier that flys strickly the family that he developed that I won't name has been in the NBRC 20 birds finals top ten for the past 3 years, 12th W/C , along with Calif. state champ 03 (stiff competion there), along with numerous regional wins all of which who's main competitor is Joe Emberton who won the 20 bird national finals this year.
There are few true fliers that wouldn't consider him one of the better fliers and breeders in the country , and there are few that would not give a left nut for one of his stock pair.
Now normally I end my posts with "just my opinion" but in this case what is presented here is just cold hard facts , none of which is just talk, fly records and respect from the top fliers in the country speak for themselfs.
Scott
Dave few experianced breeders wouldn't agree 100 0/0 with that post. There was a lot of knowledge there, along with a brief in depth look at breeding
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jun 09, 2005 12:31 PM
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
251 posts
Jun 09, 2005
1:04 PM
|
Scott.All I knew about was a 2nd & 6th in WC and the 11 bird NBRC fly last year.I know he has good birds and has a lot of knowledge just trying to get some secrets out of him.LOL.The only way you can get him to talk is talk about breeding mongrels.And his last post I must say was one of his best.
But still I wonder if his way is the best way or if its hit & miss like most of it is.How many stock birds are raised out of 100 compared to some of the other breeders.David
|
motherlodelofts
55 posts
Jun 09, 2005
2:37 PM
|
Dave I think that depends on what someone considers "stock" qaulity, some consider birds that roll blood in the eye and even rolldowns along with a host of other stability problems as "stock" qaulity, while others think that they verge on cull status.
Dave I think that his last paragraph pretty well sums it up, "It is your choice to breed the type of birds that you enjoy".
I have had hot families birds, and I have them no more for a good reason.
Nor will I breed that direction, I could if I chose too though,but why ?
The fact is I choose not to due to I can't stand headache birds with stability problems.
I think Kenny summed it up well by saying breeding "enjoyable" birds.
Myself I consider problem birds far from enjoyable
Just my opinion
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jun 09, 2005 3:58 PM
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
252 posts
Jun 09, 2005
4:12 PM
|
Scott.Are you saying that you don,t raise problem birds?From what I hear it is all a percentage game.I think you will still have your share of problem birds no matter which way you breed.The gene pool is just to great to begin with.Sure you can narrow a family down but is the quality of bird any better than an F1 cross when it comes to a kit bird for competition? David
|
motherlodelofts
56 posts
Jun 09, 2005
4:49 PM
|
Dave, F1 cross ?????????
A good bird is a good bird and competition has nothing to do with it.
Dave of coarse I breed a "few" problem birds , but it is very few . I do what I can to narrow things in, there is no perfection. but you can sure narrow it into a much better degree by selection of stock.
A good stock bird is good all the way around , a good kitbird is just a good kitbird, and there can be a world of difference between the two.
just my opinion
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jun 09, 2005 4:54 PM
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
253 posts
Jun 09, 2005
5:00 PM
|
Scott.When it comes to the roll and how a judge would score what is the difference in a Stock bird and a Kitbird? David
|
motherlodelofts
57 posts
Jun 09, 2005
5:55 PM
|
Dave I don't think that we are on the same page here, when selecting for stock, what they do in the air is only the first step, everything else about them is then judged . Mentality, charactor of the bird both on the ground and through their action in the air over a couple of fly seasons and in the kitbox.
In other words do they have the brains to gauge their depth and hold back at dangeous hts, are they great kitters ? (ever wonder about all those posts on why won't they kit) and are they just plain good citizens.
Also taken in is do they fit into the breeding plan ? what kind of producers are their parents,siblings ? can slight faults such as poor feather be overlooked? what about type, is it consistant with what you know as being right within your family ? when you look at them do they reek of confidence ?
Bottom line for me is " I want to make more "JUST" like this one" like I said earlier, I don't pair birds to fix stuff, I pair them because I want more "exactly" like the parents.
Dave the fact is any nimrod can breed "hot" pigeons, just breed unstable roll to unstable roll and don't pay any attention to anything else. Wa La hot birds.
I'll take a bird that can stand the test of time with no issues myself.
just my opinion
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jun 09, 2005 6:37 PM
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
254 posts
Jun 09, 2005
7:05 PM
|
Scott.What I want to know is there any difference in the roll.If I am competing I want a roller that will score points in the air not in the stock loft.So is the perfect stock bird what the judge is looking for or how well the kitbird rolls? I know you can have both in the same package but isn,t it a lot easier to breed a roller for the kit box to win with than it is to produce a Stock bird that has the whole package.Do you agree? David
|
motherlodelofts
58 posts
Jun 09, 2005
7:15 PM
|
Dave of coarse your looking for a bird that is exceptional in the air. A notch above all else , what is in the kitbox ? hopefully good solid birds with a few that shine above all else , the cream prooves itself over time. Of coarse it is easier to breed just a good solid kitbird, but the higher qaulity the stock, the higher qaulity of what is in the kitbox, the kitbx is where it all starts.
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jun 09, 2005 7:26 PM
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
255 posts
Jun 09, 2005
7:27 PM
|
So then a kit of 20 one year wonders would have a good chance to win the World Cup or the NBRC Fall Fly? David
|
motherlodelofts
59 posts
Jun 09, 2005
7:34 PM
|
I was wondering where you were going with this , Yes they can, if you can hold them together.
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
256 posts
Jun 09, 2005
7:47 PM
|
Scott.I am having good luck with a few families by crossing them and getting good rollers the first generation.(F1)The only problem is what the offspring of this first generation produce is never as good as the parents.So I am thinking that if they can roll this good the first year maybe this is the way to try to win the WC or the NBRC fly.If the Pure bred Rollers that have been inbred so tight hasn,t won the big one yet maybe this is another option.I don,t know I havn't competed yet.But I think I could place with them on a given day.LOL. David
|
motherlodelofts
60 posts
Jun 09, 2005
8:23 PM
|
Dave, hybred vigor can no doubt play a role in the kitbox .
That is purebred roller to purebred roller though, if compatible the tighter the blood is from each side the better.
As we've talked about before that is why many families carry lines within the family. Same but different, I find that the F-1 s can produce as well as the purelines when crossing these lines within the family.
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jun 09, 2005 8:30 PM
|
big al
5 posts
Jun 09, 2005
8:29 PM
|
Hi David,
I agree that it is sometimes immaturity. I've had young birds bump coming in and going out yet watched them mature into good stable performers. I think it depends on the knowledge of the family you're working with. If it's a family that has bred stable birds in the past for you, then more than likely this particular roller would clean up it's act in time. I had a pair I obtained from Manny Moreno in Phelan Ca' that produced ash red's, yellows and red badges that had a 70% roll-down ratio. Needless to say I got rid of the pair inspite of them being good spinners. I'm currently working with my own family of birds and get very few roll-downs but if I got one I would fly it out and even breed with it depending on the performance because I know the family normally produces stable birds.
Hope this makes sense.
Allen
|
motherlodelofts
61 posts
Jun 09, 2005
9:03 PM
|
Allen just curious , why would you breed out of a rolldown from a stable family ??? surely there are better to choose from.
|
big al
9 posts
Jun 10, 2005
1:20 AM
|
Motherlodelofts,
I more than likely would not breed with this bird to be honest with you because of better qualified birds. I just meant that if I was to ever use such a bird for breeding, it would probably produce decent offspring because of it's family history of stable birds.
I have no problem flying a bird that bumps or has roll-down tendencies if it kits and performs well when needed. I just thinkl breeding with such birds keeps you in more of an experimental mode as opposed to improvement.
Have you ever used a roll-down? What was the result?
Allen
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
258 posts
Jun 10, 2005
3:05 AM
|
Allen.Exactly what I have been trying to get across.Once you know the birds you are working with you can produce good rollers from what some others won,t even consider giving a chance.Thats all I ever heard CULL a bird if it rolls down.The first year with this family of mine I culled quite a few rollers because of this.It wasn't the birds fault it was mine and the way I was handling them.Trying to make rollers out of them before they were old enough to handle it.Then I started to wise up and YES I still get some pure rolldowns but I also get several birds that rolldown and go on to be stable performers.
Some will say why breed a hot family of rollers when you can breed a slow starting family that has it all together.I have been there with the Pensoms.It took 9 month or longer just to see if they were going to roll or just tumble.The ones that did develop into good rollers were good and worth the wait.I also have a higher percentage from my hot bred family that start early(yes you have to hold them back)and make good stable rollers.
My experience with the late starters is that they learn to handle the roll better and wind up going stiff on me before I really know what they are capable of.Also I have to starve them down so bad to get them to perform.
I am still learning and always looking for a simple way of doing things with the same results.If I am going to compete then I am going to do whatever it takes to win even if I have to cross a roller to a buzzard.LOL.
Can I keep them together? I only have to keep it together for 20 minutes on a given day.David
Last Edited by Bluesman on Jun 10, 2005 3:08 AM
|