motherlodelofts
62 posts
Jun 10, 2005
6:12 AM
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Dave now you are talking about a bird that is on the other side of the spectrum. Who wants birds that you have to "make" roll or go stiff on you?
Go back and re-read the posts, What is considerd good birds are birds that roll hard with good frequency and "stable" as can be, what Kenny was saying is that you don't have to breed unstable birds to get this, and you don't.
Monty Neible also wrote on this quite a bit on this also , such birds can also mentally and pysically handle depth well, Again it is a bird that has control,not lack of control and yet such a bird give's you all you want, such a bird take's breeding to a different level where hard roll,frequency and depth does not come from instability.
Just my opinion
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jun 10, 2005 6:43 AM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
259 posts
Jun 10, 2005
7:31 AM
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Scott.Where is all these rollers that are on the cutting edge.Rollers that are Champions in the air and in the Loft.How come there is only a few scattered around the lofts all over the country.Why are these great rollers not winning the World Cup.
I agree.No one wants to have to make a bird roll and for sure nobody wants a bunch of stiffs.However there is a lot of them being raised each year.
Untill I am shown more proof I still think that as many Good rollers are raised by the hit & miss(or best to best) method as by Inbreeding a family of rollers for 10 to 20 years.David
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motherlodelofts
63 posts
Jun 10, 2005
8:10 AM
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Breeding towards this type of bird has served many well as far as winning the W/C, find some of Neibles writings, there are many others also, what is written here is "just" something to think about when it comes to selection , Dave breeding and flying goes far beyond competition,Competition plays a very very small roll on how I breed birds.
What it boils down to is there is more to it than just roll to roll. To simplify it, breeding birds with roll and brains is what we are looking at,what do you think Pensom is trying to get accross when he writes about expression ?
Good luck
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jun 10, 2005 9:28 AM
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Velo99
10 posts
Jun 10, 2005
2:38 PM
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Ok Guys,
As I enter the third round of my first season is in the nest. Ten more eggs from six pair. When I paired my birds I took several things into consideration. Color was one: hard to hard,soft to hard, etc. I have a few birds that are pretty hot. Two are nestmates,and three are cousins. They are grizzles. I have two lines of birds from the same family. 2/3 of the "a" family have rolled down. Conversely the "b" family has had one bumper and a couple of really nice rollers, just a bit floppy from the soft feather. I have all the soft colored birds mated to hard colors. If all work I will breed a bit stiffer feather into the hot b family and get what I want in a roller.
Another consideration was the performance of the birds prior to breeding. I was not able to get a group of "name brand" birds to start with. Some of my breeders I have never seen fly. My mentor told me the ones he gave me did indeed roll and would be good breeders. I supplemented these with five birds I knew would roll from my kit box.
The first round of four is starting to roll now. One is quite nice but soft of feather and a bit loose.
The other consideration is compatibility/attitude. Does this bird fly well with the kit? out bird? aggressive in the box? These are the final points I consider when selecting breeders.
The birds to have are the parents of good birds.
Too many sources have told me that good parents are more valuable than a super roller. Everyone will have their share of culls. The harder you cull and the closer you get to achieving the goal you personally want for your program the less one should have to cull. The percentage of keepers should slowly rise over the generations as the less desirable traits are removed. This should bring one to the point would want to be with their birds. Then it would only get better. I long to be there. In a few more seasons I should be.
MTC YITS
v99
Last Edited by Velo99 on Jun 10, 2005 4:58 PM
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Mongrel Lofts
11 posts
Jun 10, 2005
2:49 PM
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Hi David,
I'm not sure what you are asking or suggesting.. Are you saying the best way to set a stud of rollers is to just collect them from all kinds of lofts and keep crossing families for hybrid vigor? Are you suggesting that the way to set a stud of rollers is not through the use of line and inbreeding, working towards setting the traits within the stud you are trying to perpetuate? Surely you couldn't believe this? Or maybe you could?
David, let me ask you.. What is the best way to make a stud of rollers that is not only good for a season, but that stands the test of time and rolls year in and year out? How do you suggest to the beginner and old hand alike is the best way to breed and fly good rollers, year in and year out?
This could turn into a good topic to be kicked around,, I can't wait to hear how you would not inbreed, line breed or keep a family and fly good kits for the next 20 years.. Mongrel
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
261 posts
Jun 10, 2005
4:18 PM
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Ken.What happens to the great kit that wins the World Cup or the NBRC Fall Fly.Does that kit fall apart or does it come back again the next year and win again.
What I am seeing is a super kit that wins. Is it a kit of Hybrid Vigor rollers or is it a Kit of Linebred/Inbred rollers that have been in the making for 10 years.I havn't been able to find any solid proof one way or the other.But I have some good leads to follow up on and I think it will shed a lot of light on what I believe.
What is the sole purpose of Competing? It is to win.Right?
So if a kit of Hybrid Vigor rollers can win why waste years in breeding a kit that don,t stand any more chance of winning than a kit of Hybrid Vigor rollers. David
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Velo99
12 posts
Jun 10, 2005
4:55 PM
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Hey David,
I believe this is getting a bit off subject.
The purpose of competing in my opinion is to enhance the breed and ensure it`s progress. In an earlier post I opined that the purpose of competetion in this format is to ensure the breed standard is being adhered to. I believe the judge is there not only to judge your kit,but to issue a citation on your program judged against the standard established by the governing body. So not only are you competing against other flyers,you are competing against the standard. Let us not forget the birds are the actual performers in this endeavor.
mtc/yits
v99
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
263 posts
Jun 10, 2005
7:38 PM
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V99. I believe the judge is there not only to judge your kit,but to issue a citation on your program judged against the standard established by the governing body. So not only are you competing against other flyers,you are competing against the standard. Let us not forget the birds are the actual performers in this endeavor.
Would you like to explain this to me? David
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motherlodelofts
65 posts
Jun 12, 2005
2:43 PM
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Dave you are making my head spin again LOL, do you do this on purpose ?
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jun 12, 2005 3:03 PM
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spinnerpigeon
20 posts
Jun 12, 2005
5:53 PM
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Hey all,
He V99 how does that hard/soft color thing work for you, results wise? I personally dont see how it could work. Because (someone correct me if Im wrong) but hard colors are black, blue chk, ect. and the soft colors are the yellows, grizzles, red chks, ect. My question is this, where do the bars play in and what would an indigo be classified as? Or if you say breed hard to soft, lets say for an example you breed a tort to a blue check. Now, according to what you are saying that is a soft/hard mating. BUT a tort is just blue chk with a griz modifier, so technically it would be a blue chk x blue chk. Thus being hard to hard. Bob, I saw you posting earlier, what is your take on the hard/soft issue?
Caleb
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
16 posts
Jun 12, 2005
8:40 PM
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This will confuse some of you. The reference to hard and soft colored is about feather quality, not feather color. The association is relative to specific colors having the "tendency", but not absolute, to be one or the other. Or even more confusing to many, the inbetweens. You can have soft red checks just like hard red checks. The same goes with any color. Your red, blue checks will most often be hard feathered, but a recessive red or black can as well. The same said for being soft. It is not a matter of simply being told to mate soft to hard and going out in your loft and mating a recessive red to a red check, with the assumption that your recessive red is soft and your red check is hard. You have to know what "soft feathered is and what "hard feathered" is.
Many things contribute to soft feathering. Some of the most significant appear to be some recessive color linkages, spread and color enhancers such as dirty. Diet can contribute greatly to the feel and appearance of a bird's feather quality. In some cases you can go to your kit box and pick out your best spinners. Often the ones with the shattered secondaries from rolling are hard feathered while another bird that rolls just as well has little to no abrasion around the covert secondaries. The later would be considered along the lines of being "soft". Soft is flexible, often too flexible. It is really hard to get a good feel for it using run down kit birds. But if you were to examine your stock and hold over birds, you would see upon examination, a different feel, look and flexibility in the feather quality.
Another analysis of the feather quality is to hold the wing up to the light. Hard feathered birds tend to have secondaries that are webbed complete. They look like good, true feathers. Soft colored birds often have blotches or incomplete looking areas of the feathers when viewed in this manner. Soft feathered birds also often have gaps or loosness of feather around the neck area. Hard feathered birds are the opposite and are usually more tight feathered around the neck.
The assumption we often make is that while the birds we preceive as being hard feathered are more dynamically and phenotypically correct, those that are soft appear to us to be of a lesser phenotype. Right or wrong, there is often a nice balanced achieved when mating hard feathered to soft feathered to keep from raising birds that are too strong versus those that might fall into the category of being too weak. The color of the feather is just the wrapping on the question.
Brian.
Last Edited by MCCORMICKLOFTS on Jun 12, 2005 8:43 PM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
267 posts
Jun 13, 2005
3:19 AM
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Scott. No I honestly do not.I would just like straight answers to my questions.Are these questions such great secrets or am I seeing something that isn't there except in my head.
Ken has even said that they are selling off their old kits to make room for the new young coming on.Why?
There has got to be an answer Why.
Is it because old birds are hard to handle?
Is it for the money?
Is it because of Hybrid Vigor?
Am I the only Stupid person to ask these questions? LOL.
If I am I will crawl back under my rock.(which my sons are always telling me to do)LOL.
I would think that the ones in the Competition circle would talk about such things and would know.Not just a surmising answer but an answer from the ones that have sold off the winning kits.
I could understand if it only happened a few times but it is a constant. David
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J_Star
10 posts
Jun 13, 2005
5:08 AM
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Dave,
You have some good questions and let me see if I can answer some of them. If you are a competitor who enjoys the birds and want to have the best you can in your loft, then you breed them the right way and develop an excellent kit that will hold the test of time. If you just want to win, that is another story.
Some flyers will breed hot kits that in their first year are frequent and full of roll to compete with. Those birds always in their second year will fall a part and become rolldowns. They use these birds in the first season to compete with and then they will dispose of the kit after the competition and you will see a lot of them in the donated birds in the auctions. Some flyers use warmers to put the birds in some kind of reaction to get them to be in state of disarray so to speak and to get them to breaking more that usual. There are allot of tricks that was developed to get kits strung out for competitions.
Other flyers who breed for the better of the breed, in the second season, they might take some of those winning birds and put them in the stock loft, therefore, effecting the make up of the new kit. Therefore, not be able to secure another win for couple more seasons.
If you want to just win, then breed hot birds and the hotter the better for the first season and plan to dispose of them before the following season. If vigor breeding will introduce the hotness to your birds, then that is the way to go about it. I do not recommend it and I will not do it myself. The reason is, if you make your whole life about winning, then will not be able to live without it and end up cheating and doing other things just to be a winner. I will be more proud of the quality and stability of the breed that I have than just to say I won with birds that do not stand to the test.
Winning is nice and a good thing, but winning with quality and style is best. Good luck to you competing…
Jay
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spinnerpigeon
21 posts
Jun 13, 2005
6:16 AM
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Brian,
Exellent post! Thanks for the info!
Caleb
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motherlodelofts
67 posts
Jun 13, 2005
6:38 AM
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Few if any that I know of will sell winning kits. Most will donate a pair or two out of them for auction.
The hotter the better ? doubtful, too hot of birds will screw you in a heartbeat.
But there are those that do breed hot where the birds are trash in the second year.
Are older birds harder to handle ? yes and no, I would just call them different in handling more than anything, I will take a good oldbird over a hot youngbird hands down anyday.
Dave, Kenny gave you invaluable insight on breeding a "stud" of rollers , if you want to try and make a feeble attempt at blowing holes in it due to having birds from all around the gallaxy that is your option , or you can learn from it,there isn't a true breeder out there that I know that see's that as a road to success. You'll never have a complete set of dishes by throwing dimes at the fair, just a cluster fork,and that is nothing more than common knowledge.
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jun 13, 2005 6:58 AM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
269 posts
Jun 13, 2005
7:32 AM
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Fellows.Thanks for your answers but just forget I ever asked anything.I should have kept my mouth shut.I am more confused now than I was before. David
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motherlodelofts
68 posts
Jun 13, 2005
9:02 AM
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Dave I scrolled up trying to figure out what you were asking
1. most the winners if not all fly an inbred/linebred families,although there may be a few birds from a sideline outside the main family , most but not all keep these kits,but rarely do they stay 100 0/0 intack,some may be sold or given away or donated to auction, some are lost due to pred or over fly, and of coarse some are stocked.
And some might fly only the hot families where they for the most part excel as youngsters.
2. winning is only topping for most ,for most the goal is the same,and that is to breed the best that you can. Competition is where you hope that a good kit will show their potential on fly day. and they do of coarse you hope you place well. All want to see good qaulity multipliers no matter what happens.
3. you want to eliminate the hit and miss as much as possible, and this is done through inbreeding and linebreeding, that is what I see in my birds and that is what most will see if they have a decent family to start with and have some stock sence.
hope this helps
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jun 13, 2005 9:12 AM
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Ballrollers
22 posts
Jun 13, 2005
9:47 AM
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Hey David, Scott, Ken and others, Interesting thread. I just got back from the Backspin Roller Classic. About 50-60 guys from North and South Carolina, Virginia, Ohio, Alabama, Georgia, and Louisiana. Many, many, years of experience from which to glean information and philosophies was there for the pickin'. A common thread among some of the veteran guys (Wally Forte-90 yrs. young, Don Simpson-70+ years in rollers) was that their best producing pairs, were not necessarily their best performers in the air (though the genes were in the line), and likewise the best performers do not always produce. Chance matings produced champions in at least four cases in different lofts and families, which is as good as the odds the rest of us are having with the "best to best" philosophy. So that makes it tough on those of us with less experience with picking breeders.And maybe we know less than we think we do! And that is what you seem to be searching for Dave; another more consistent system or theory upon which to base our pairings. Right? I also some kits that should be in competition, but the guys were not interested. (Half and three quarter turns of 20-40ft breads with speed.) Man, I'd have those in the comps in a heartbeat. Some of these guys use open loft breeding with a philosphy, "I have the genes fixed in my breeders after years of linebreeding and inbreeding. Mother nature can do as good a job as I can with the pairings." They would never consider an F-1 cross, nor resort to an outcross from another family for hybrid vigor. They are getting it through the cousin/cousin chance matings that occur...Verrrrrry Interesting! Cliff
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Jun 13, 2005 10:00 AM
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Ballrollers
23 posts
Jun 13, 2005
10:13 AM
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Scott, I saw my first 100ft spinner with speed and quality in a 2000 bird. (And the best part is, the guy gave me the bird!!!!! and a speedy hen to go with him)The A comp kit was something special...the best speed and style and depth and frequency I have seen to date. They scored over 500 pts under adverse flying conditions and were edged out by Joe Bob's kit by 25 points. I don't know how they lost!!! The foundation cock is the legendary Old Almond Cock (a dark tortoise) and is out of the Bob Welbourne Pensom's and Thompsons brought into the Carolinas. And guess what, Scott. He didn't bring in the Turner color modifiers!!!!! Remember when you asked if anyone kept that line pure? He gave me two pair, one he pulled off squeakers in his breeder loft!!! Thought you might be interested! Cliff
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
270 posts
Jun 13, 2005
10:22 AM
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Scott.How many times over the past 2 years have you and others told me the only way to prove I had good rollers was to put them in Competition with the rest of the world?
You said once I started winning I could then say I had good rollers and would gain respect with fellow flyers.No Problem.You talked me into it.
Now you are saying most if not all winners are just winning because its the topping on the whole thing.Most keep the winning kit but can,t win again because they sold a couple,donated a couple,lost a couple etc.
You said most all the winners are breeding a linebred/inbred family of rollers.This makes the family tight and the outcome is consistent.Yet they can,t fall back on this family and replace the few birds that came up missing from the winning kit and win again.Something is wrong with what you are telling me.
V99 says that the judge is not only judging my rollers in the air but will also give a citation as to weither I am breeding to the standard.This was new to me.
Jay says if you want to win above all else then raise the Hybrid Vigor rollers and get rid of them before the next year.I know this is being done quite often.Ken even said that the top flyers were selling them off to make room for the next young kits coming on.YOU DON,T JUST SELL OFF A WINNING KIT WITHOUT SOME REASON.
Now which way is it.You say that most keep the winning kits and Ken says they sell them off.Now you see why I am confused.
I just can,t see flyers spending 35.00 a kit and some flying 2 kits(70.00) without winning not being top priorty.
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
271 posts
Jun 13, 2005
10:37 AM
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Cliff. You said; And that is what you seem to be searching for Dave; another more consistent system or theory upon which to base our pairings. Right?
Cliff.Pretty much it in a nutshell.
You know I have my main family of Linebred/Inbred rollers.These I don,t mess with.I know I can fall back on these at anytime and produce a winning kit.LOL.
I also mess around with 6 other families of rollers.What I see coming out of these crosses(some not all) will knock your socks off the first year.And on a given day are good enough to win any competition.Same as any Linebred/Inbred family of rollers.Actually I can score more points with these crosses.Points win.
I said before if I compete I am doing so to win.If I don,t plan on winning I won,t waste my time or money.
Just looking for an edge.hehe. David
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
272 posts
Jun 13, 2005
11:14 AM
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Jay. I was rereading your post and I think it is about an accurate a post as I have seen on this subject
I did see something that you said; The reason is, if you make your whole life about winning, then will not be able to live without it and end up cheating and doing other things just to be a winner...
How could you possibly cheat by flying rollers? David
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motherlodelofts
69 posts
Jun 13, 2005
11:21 AM
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Dave maybe you should contact the winners of the big one's and ask them as this just seems to go around in circles, I think that you want cut and dry answers where there are none , also you are getting answers from those that have little or no experiance as far as competition or know the fliers that do so.
Dave you have every right to tell everyone you want how good your birds are , personally I'll let the birds do the talking.
Good Luck
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jun 13, 2005 11:27 AM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
273 posts
Jun 13, 2005
11:42 AM
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Scott. I thought I was asking 2 of the best in competition.You & Ken.You both have won some big flys and I am sure you both have talked to all the big boys.You are 2 of the biggest on this list.
Ken won,t answer much unless its on the topic of Color Breeding or Whitebars.LOL.Just Joking.He does have some good responses sometimes too.
One think I learned very early in life that for every question there is an answer.Thanks for your input.I will continue to search for answers.I will find out from someone.David
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spinnerpigeon
22 posts
Jun 13, 2005
2:43 PM
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Hey all,
I have a question for you guys. How many birds on your A teams are over 2 years old? 3 years? 4 years? Just curious.
Caleb
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motherlodelofts
72 posts
Jun 13, 2005
8:19 PM
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Cliff such gatherings are GREAT GREAT fun , the conventions are a "must" go for me.
Best to best is the best way to go until you gain more knowledge on your family.
There is more to it than that though , I have several good one's in the team that I will not breed out of for one reason or another, some due to a "dip shit" look about them which are generally "hot", there is more to it than just snatching out of the air. And no doubt some good producers were not all that good out of the air, but you can count on such birds being fairly tightly bred and the parents and siblings were producers , plus you must know the family (family being tightly bred, not dis or dat).
Personally I'll take them out of the air, but then everything else is evaluated , but I have been known to try a sibbling that just had the "look" of a breeder in my family.
As for letting them pick their own mate's "NOT" , I'll let common sence explain that one.
I figured "that" blood was kept pure by someone, from what I here about it, it would have been a crime if it wasn't and I know that not all back there are into color,or at the very least some had to be wise enough not to destroy the foundation by crossing it I would think. I'm glad you got some and I hope it works out for you.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jun 13, 2005 8:24 PM
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Velo99
28 posts
Jun 24, 2005
8:12 PM
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Hey David.
Sorry it took so long to reply. I was alluding to the citation in a figurative manner. What we really compete against is the standard. Spinning with inestimable rapidity and the like. The closer one gets to the standard the better the birds will undoubtedly perform. I didn`t mean to imply the judge will give your program a colonoscopy. There are no points for a breeding program,but correct me if I am wrong Brian, the judge will you some pointers if you ask.
MTC/YITS
v99
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
322 posts
Jun 25, 2005
3:13 AM
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Velo.Threw me a curve ball didn,t you.LOL.And of course I missed it.Thanks for clearing that up.A lot of things are lost thru the computer.But the more we get to chat the more we understand what someone is meaning.David
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big al
29 posts
Jul 02, 2005
2:27 PM
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Well!!
All of you have made some excellent points. I think what it boils down to is the time you have and level of patience in dealing with such birds for breeding. I would never knock someone who does. Again for me... I'd just let them cull themselves or arrange a meeting. LOL!!
----------
Big Al
"High Plains Spinner Loft"
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Richard A.
43 posts
Jul 06, 2005
7:17 PM
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I believe similar to what Big al said. The birds that you produce from a family will throw what is typical of the family. I would use a bird like that to breed with because I have a stable family, but if the bird shows caracteristics that are not typical of the family, I doubt that you would be able to reproduce it.
Richard
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motherlodelofts
156 posts
Jul 06, 2005
7:54 PM
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Honestly, if I had to even consider useing such a bird for stock I would change families. Birds such as this should be culled plain and simple, no question about it in my mind.
Just my opinion
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jul 06, 2005 7:55 PM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
345 posts
Jul 07, 2005
2:36 AM
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Scott.Have you ever used a bird like this in your breeding program? David
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motherlodelofts
158 posts
Jul 07, 2005
7:08 AM
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Dave "why" would I reach down into the very bottom of the barral for a bird to put into stock ????? If you want more heat breed out of birds with more heat but that can handle it.
Dave I breed on average of 3-5 rolldowns out of 100 a year, and if I am lucky I breed 1-3 truelly exceptional birds out of that 100.
It is pretty much a no brainer which group I'll be looking at for potential stock.
Rolldowns,chronic bumpers,non kitters,treesitters,early landers and the like are simply CULLS and are all tied into each other by a common thread which is "instability".
I breed very few such birds due to I concentrate around birds that Roll hard with qaulity, frequency and managable depth that can do this no problems what so-ever, truelly good stock birds simply do no come easy for me,some just breed by a lower standard is all .
What seperates these type of birds from the other ? That is simple "they are bred to handle the roll both physicaly and mentally".
Dave when I read posts that even remotly suggest breeding out of these culls it just leaves me shaking my head and leaves me fearfull that some might actually be led down this path by beleiving that such birds hold value, when the fact is they don't even register as a consideration outside of the cull status.
I'm not even going to post my normal "just my opinion" on this one as this post simply evolves around good common stock sence.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jul 07, 2005 7:28 AM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
347 posts
Jul 07, 2005
8:47 AM
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Scott.How can you say that anyone is wrong for using a roller like this.If you never used such a bird how do you know that what you are culling is not the birds that would better your breeding program.Heck if you did maybe you would raise 6 good out of 100.I admire you for being strict with your breeding program but I can,t see how you can say I am doing wrong for the breed by doing so.But if you feel that what you are doing is the way to go that is your privelege.I don,t have that strict of a breeding program.David
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nicksiders
165 posts
Jul 07, 2005
10:00 AM
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I know some breeders who have used a "digger" (a bird who bumps most of the time going out and coming in) in thier breeding system that has paid off................greatly.
Simply...........it is their opinion that it works as long as the style, felocity, frequency, and character is there. I am scared to do it because I don't like birds that bump and are otherwise not in control and I am affraid I will continue this characteristic in generations to come. I want my birds to quickly fly up to about 400 feet and pop 30 to 40 footers about every 20 seconds for about a half hour then land altogether go into kit box immediatly so I can put up the next kit who will do the same.......LOL I am too lazy to mess with them......LOL
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motherlodelofts
161 posts
Jul 07, 2005
10:04 AM
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Nick I think that "paid off greatly" is a matter of opinion and is probably determined at a young age, if a chronic bumper is the best that someone can find for stock then it is time to find new birds.
Just my opinion
Scott
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
348 posts
Jul 07, 2005
10:20 AM
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Nick.Thats what I want my birds to do but I have yet to see it.LOL.Maybe this Fall.Maybe next year.I have started my project breeding this month so maybe I will find a good combination. David
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Velo99
38 posts
Jul 07, 2005
8:28 PM
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I tend to agree with Scott.
I will NOT breed from a roll down either. Any "bad" traits are grounds for immediate disqualification for the breeder pen. Undesirable traits have a nasty habit of recurring at the the most unfortunate times.
I have a young bird hatched in late March, hit three thirty footers today. I hope he stabilizes but he could be a lawn dart. So far he has demonstrated control, but his family is almost too hot. I have broken up the hot birds and bred to more stable colors in hopes of minimizing any rolldowns while enhancing the depth and frequency. This is as close as I get to breeding a roll down.
mtc yits
v99
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
349 posts
Jul 08, 2005
2:22 AM
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V99.That roller born in March should it rolldown is not a genetic fault but is not Mature enough to handle the roll.You can breed(if it developes to handle the roll)from this bird and it will produce good rollers.Some just don,t understand there is a difference in a Rolldown and a bird that Rolls Down.
There is several roads to travel so everyone is free to choose which way they want to go.First road I follow is the roll.If you have Roll the rest can be easily added with proper selection.David
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Velo99
39 posts
Jul 08, 2005
5:03 AM
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I know the difference twixt the two as well. I have two birds from this family in the stock loft. I am trying to keep them from going over the edge. I was given 6-7 of these birds only three remain. The others rolled down. The birds I have stablized and survived the first season. The bird I was talking about is the first to develop the roll from the birds I bred out of the hot ones. Gonna see if he is deep or dead. This is the first crossroads of my program.
yits
v99
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