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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
Doc Leo
Doc Leo
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Leo
Member
44 posts
May 30, 2005
9:31 AM
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I decided to release a little of our medical findings,But understand the kind of person i am,I built show cars till they made the covers,I raise show horses, and took 1st against 72 colts,many endevors i always worked to the top. These same efforts are applied here,some yrs ago,several medical students were using the Labs to forward their grad,One was a roller fancier,is how i got involved we decided to find out what made them Roll. I decided the birds used "had to be performers" this left no stone unturned,1st the roller,then a common was cut,WOW there was a distinct difference,so came a homer, a helmet, another commie,next i acquired 2 rollers each one from a different loft, these birds showed the same makeup as the first roller, by now 5 roller guys were meeting at my place, and discussions were..an absolute must..The findings were THE BLOOD VESSELS IN THE ROLLERS HEAD WERE NEARLY TWICE AS THICK ! this included the neck area, and all the blood flow connections,the findings went on ,after several more birds we decided the roller was unique..until i found a C.L. tumbler. WE couldnt believe it...It too was THICK like the roller...Now what????/ Dont forget, the great roller meetings were full force,"Rolling blood" came up,WE all agreed NO WAY from rolling, Lab Tech, agreed,HE explained a "hollow" behind the eye, if the eye were bumped it could cause blood to flow into the hollow.Under normal conditions that area is sealed tight, so the contention is the violent spin"as 99% are" is caused from 'eye bumping'and many other slight mishaps,mostly from its own wings during the performance..I have never bred away from it because i understood it,for what it was, ....What ive attempted to explain here is just the "tip of the iceberg" this work went on even after they"ran us off" WE even used tranqulizers, in proper dosages for parlor rollers and flying performers, I am not trying to change your thoughts or beliefs,just a little something you might find usefull someday ,or add it to what you already have......DOC..LEO
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
227 posts
May 30, 2005
1:09 PM
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Thanks DOC.Opens up a whole new can of worms don,t it.LOL. David
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Alan Bliven
166 posts
May 30, 2005
5:01 PM
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Very interesting Doc...
What did they find in the heads of the Parlor Rollers and the other Flying Performers? And what about the Homers?
>>until i found a C.L. tumbler. WE couldnt believe it...It too was THICK like the roller...<<
What's a C.L. Tumbler?
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Alan
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Leo
Member
45 posts
May 30, 2005
5:10 PM
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Hi Alan, The bird i am referring to is a "clean leg tumbler"IN my post i neglected to say the hollow ,has a clear liquid i dont have identified,in it, the least minute speck of blood would spread like oil on water,and appear much worse than it actually is..
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Leo
Member
46 posts
May 30, 2005
5:32 PM
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The rollers were unique to the findings, only the C.L. tumbler was the exception, at the time parlors were scarce,we had ONE and decided to keep it for the tranqulizer expierments, I now wish we had found one at any cost,for comparison...no other performing birds,no homers were even close to the 'roller'.Even now i wish more C.L.Tumblers,would have been checked...Doc...LOL
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dave
7 posts
May 31, 2005
9:40 AM
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Did any of the dissected birds roll blood in their eyes before they were dissected?
Last Edited by dave on May 31, 2005 9:42 AM
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fhtfire
138 posts
Jun 01, 2005
8:47 PM
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Leo,
I am ageeing with your post more and more. I have a little hen that I recieved from Chuck Roe. SHe is a 2000 hen. I flew her when I got her..she is a bullet. He said that the bird had rolled blood in her eye before. She has never rolled blood in her eye since I have had her. I have about 15 or so round of young off of her and NONE of the offspring have ever rolled blood in the eye and some of the offspring are bullets too!
I also have a little hen that is in the kit box...she is a 2004 bird and she is very deep and fast. She is bull eyed....one day I noticed that she hit a roll nice and deep..I had noticed that she was at the top of the kit when she rolled....She literally rolled through the kit and then popped out at about the 35'mark. She headed back to the kit then turned away and came straight down and landed....I noticed that she was blinking her eye...when she trapped I looked at the eye and noticed blood in the eye.....I rested her for about a week...and she has been hitting it for a month and not a drop of blood in the eye...So I am starting to think that maybe...they are hitting other birds....hitting there own wing....or maybe an injury in the kit box before I let them out....just my thought...the gears are for sure turning. I think that if someone had a bird that rolls blood in the eye...breed them as a side project and see if it continues...and post the info on this site....just another thought...
rock and ROLL
Paul
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motherlodelofts
27 posts
Jun 01, 2005
9:09 PM
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Never see them out of "this" family Paul "never" , I am sure you guys just fly faster spinning birds and that is the reason why I don't see them. Or just maybe it is because we never let birds with this fault into the stock loft. If they can't hold up they really aren't much use to me. Just curious , were both birds from the same family ?
just my opinion
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jun 01, 2005 9:16 PM
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fhtfire
139 posts
Jun 01, 2005
11:14 PM
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Scott,
No the birds were not from the same family. I do not think that it really has to do with how fast the bird spins..LOL! OR your birds would have blood shooting everywhere! LOL! I truly think the second bird hit something and the Roe bird...had not done it in my loft...Chuck said the bird did it when it was about 8 months old. I have had the bird since 03..and it was a 2000 bird...I flew it for awhile before breeding it and Chuck flew it for a year and a half in his kit before he pulled it...so I really do not know...The other hen was out of Emami stuff..I really do not know..that is my point...The second hen that is emami stuff..is what you would call a kit bird for life..LOL...it is a good roller but bumps at times...Anyway..not from the same loft...and have never seen it since in the Roe hen or any of the offspring...
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Leo
Member
47 posts
Jun 02, 2005
7:40 AM
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Paul, that is an excellent post,You came with the experience, and came with the goods, and prooved it....good stuff/// I am glad you responded, with your expierences.Birds tend to BUMP when being released this action would cause rolling blood ......There is a saying, "A TREE THAT WONT BEND...well you know rest...Thanks ...LEO
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motherlodelofts
28 posts
Jun 02, 2005
8:11 AM
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Leo/ paul , there is a difference between a bird that bumps or hits another bird in the air (accident) verses a bird that rolls blood in the eye due to rolling.
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jun 02, 2005 8:12 AM
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dave
8 posts
Jun 02, 2005
8:59 AM
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I think that to resolve this issue you would have to dissect birds that roll blood and birds that don't. Maybe the birds that roll blood have regular size blood vessels that can't stand up to the spin.
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Leo
Member
48 posts
Jun 02, 2005
11:44 AM
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Scott,/ David, I have no intensions of trying to change your ability to supersede, these Findings,Ive shown you what Ive worked very hard to find, Now, show me your findings,??? An David I think you might be rite ,they probably DO have 'regular' vessels, next question is are they 'rollers' Your still in square 'one'. This is why I hesitated to post 'ANY' of these findings, with much more information available,,,IT IS AT A STANDSTILL, and here it will remain.....
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dave
9 posts
Jun 02, 2005
1:11 PM
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Leo, I find your writing very interesting. I apologize if it seems as if I am bashing or against you. In fact your writings really intrigue me and makes me think. I have just been a lurker and have never jumped in on a topic except this one. I just wanted to know if there were any differences in the thickness of the blood vessels in rollers that rolled blood and those that didn't. I think that if we can get some to compare and then take it from there we can find the answer. Could it be the birds diet that causes the blood vessels to be different? Could it be genetic? Could it be like cholesterol in humans? We need some of it to make our blood vessels elastic and stronger but too much and it is harmful.
Last Edited by dave on Jun 02, 2005 1:15 PM
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Leo
Member
49 posts
Jun 02, 2005
3:09 PM
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All IS O.K. Scott , i dont know where you saw that I thought it was a good thing? ITS NOT. VESSELS are "THICKER"not larger..The brain setups were nearly identical, However, I will add this much"FOR FREE"..there was a little 'disagreement'on a slight difference on...THE INNER EAR...I WENT WILD COULD THIS BE RESPOSABLE FOR THE ROLLING FACYOR????? and the difference in depth???? Dave i dont think a bird that produced a blood eye would have helped too much,,,Keep in mind i used "Top of the Line"ROLLERS all capable of rolling blood,,in fact i hated to use some of them, I understand what you are trying say for "compairison", understand, many rollers were used, with NO difference.....LEO
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motherlodelofts
30 posts
Jun 02, 2005
3:19 PM
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Leo there is little doubt that it all starts in the brain to spark the physical , The what, whys and hows is the obvious mystery.
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
230 posts
Jun 03, 2005
4:25 AM
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And I will still stand by my opinion that it is a minor fault and can be bred away from.The quality of the young produced from them is worth the time breeding from them.How many good rollers have been culled that had a red eye that was caused from an accident just because they were told it was a fault from rolling to hard? David
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Leo
Member
50 posts
Jun 03, 2005
6:09 AM
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The "mystery" was solved over 30 yrs ago, and i have had NO problems, with these familys, in any way..so my answer is ...SHOW ME YOUR PROOF...After all this time of breeding out of them,you experts warned everybody they would have a "LOFT FULL" of red eyes...I aint found not even ONE...??? please explain this 'mystery'..??You cant, you know it,. and i know it...Its scarry to walk into a LOFT OF RED EYES......LEO
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motherlodelofts
32 posts
Jun 03, 2005
7:25 AM
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Yep sounds like you are far ahead of everyone else and have it all figured out Leo. Good job
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jun 03, 2005 10:02 AM
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Mongrel Lofts
1 post
Jun 03, 2005
11:52 AM
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Leo,
I have two thoughts on this topic. One, a good friend of mine got a grant to study why rollers roll at UC Davis in northern Calif.. He was their studying to be a vet, and as he has been a life long roller nutt. He wanted to see if he could find out why they roll. This is what he told me. He too found that the blood vessels in the head were thicker than normal.. SO he wondered, are they born this way or do they develop this way. He said young rollers did not show the signs of the think blood vessels, so he wasnt sure if they got thicker as they came into the roll, or if the roll caused the the vessels to thicken by rolling. Like a boxer from being punched.. Before he could find all the answers, he ran out of the grant and had to turn in his project.. So I'm not so sure the blood vessels prove much, if its posible they are thickened by the act of rolling pressure caused to the brain from the velocity of rolling.
Point two. My friend Billy Mathews had a super little rolling cock bird, # 70 some years back. He rolled blood in his eye but Billy stocked him because he liked his roll. Many of #70's young rolled blood in thier eye also and so do many of his great great grand kids. Dennis Hayes got some birds down from this line that rolled blood in their eyes. I had several of them from the same cock bird. From this I have concluded that it is a geneticly passed on fault from this # 70 cock. and is a weakness to be culled, not promoted..
Another real live case for you.I had a black w/f hen from Joe Kiser that rolled blood in both her eyes. It was an odd thing, she hit this nice roll and then came down to the ground, twirling like a helicopter blade. I bred from her one round and one of the young, rolled blood in its eye. Only one eye, but still blood in the eye..
SO, from these hands on experience over the past 30 years. Its my opinion that rolling blood in the eye is genetic weakness.. Just my personal experience. Mongrel Lofts
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
231 posts
Jun 03, 2005
12:11 PM
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Mongrel Lofts.Is this the only hen you ever bred from that rolled blood in the eye? David
Last Edited by Bluesman on Jun 03, 2005 12:15 PM
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Mongrel Lofts
2 posts
Jun 03, 2005
12:43 PM
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David,
That I can remember, yes.. I haven't had many from the birds I breed now roll blood in the eye. I did get one last year from the Monty line. I have seen birds of marginal speed roll blood in the eye, so I know its not from velocity.
I think the point is, We breed so many birds that roll as good or better without rolling blood in their eyes, why would we put one in the stock loft..
The fastest birds I have ever seen roll. I mean the ones that you only breed a few of in a life time, didn't roll blood in their eyes.. Hmmmmmmmmm, I guess I don't need to breed from those birds with this fault when I stop to think of it.. Mongrel Lofts
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Leo
Member
51 posts
Jun 03, 2005
1:54 PM
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I think this is absolutely amazing..to say the least,in fact i too had Joes birds," WHAT A COINCIDENCE"....IT REALLY BOGGLES ONES MIND..DOESENT IT ????? to bad the MONEY ran out, I must be really lucky, These same birds "FLATASS SMOKE IT".. yet yours dont even need to roll with great velosity,and come back 'red eyed' I think i read this same post yesterday , or something similar, by another fellow..BUT FOR SOME REASON WAS REMOVED.??? HUmmmmmm Ill tell ya..His bird came down the same exact way??? THAT makes two of you guys...These coincidences, should go in .."RIPLEYS"..dontchathink??? Iam real sorry about your birds,and too bad your friend didnt make it..keep your chin up, things will get better...LEO
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
4 posts
Jun 03, 2005
1:58 PM
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Hey KGB. Oddly enough I had a hen roll a hint of blood in her eye this morning. I haven't had one in over a year and the last one to do it was this same hen, again, well over a year ago.
I do believe you are part right and part wrong. I believe the point of rupture is related to velocity, but not entirely in the context of extreme velocity that we want to see in our birds. I believe the rupture could happen to many birds, its just a matter of the bird reaching the velocity that is required for the breakage to happen per it's design. If we compare velocity to engines, one engine might experience failure at 3,000rpm while another built by the same mechanic might never have a problem when pushed beyond 7,000 rpm. I have hurt more engines at lower rpms (which ultimately was their threshold) than those I have twisted up to 7,000 rpm plus.
My assumption with the few I have had that rolled blood in their eyes is that, for the most part, they weren't rolling any faster than the others in the kit. It was just a matter of time before the bird propelled itself to the point the force caused the pressure to exceed the restraining capabilities of the arterial walls. Each bird probably has a different breaking point. Most will never reach it which is why most rollers don't roll blood in their eyes.
In today's example, my A team was, for whatever odd reason, rolling with the most extreme velocity I have ever seen from them, or at any loft for that matter. I have no idea why they were rolling so damn fast. But obviously this unique situation caused this one hen, who had not been rolling this fast in the last year or so, to exceed the limitations of her vessels, therefore succombing to failure.
This is why I both agree and disagree with your take on it. I do believe the lower threshold for arterial strength most likely is genetic. On the same note I believe it does relate to velocity, but the speed of that velocity could be average or phenomenal. The point of vessel failure determines what that velocity is. It could happen to a tumbler or a spinner. Its relative to the limitations of the bird's design.
Brian.
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motherlodelofts
33 posts
Jun 03, 2005
3:02 PM
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Brian , it "is" caused by rolling , so no doubt the faster the bird the more this fault will show itself in the birds with this problem. I had a family that carried this trait at one time.
Leo I cancled that post because it seemed like you were getting bothered , just didn't want to cause waves was all. Leo what did you have from Joe ?
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jun 03, 2005 3:04 PM
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Leo
Member
52 posts
Jun 04, 2005
7:13 AM
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WELL EXPERTS, all ive seen is THE WORLDS GREATEST "COINCIDENCE" STORY"..LOL you guys should make a Movie "THREE STOOGES MEET THE GOONEY BIRDS"..LOL.. or "CHEECH AN CHONG MEET FRICK AN FRACK" LOLLOLLOL I will say this 'nice try'but all your "fairytails" have come to an END. AS i said in the beginning 'here is a little of our findings'.....You have only seen 1/3 of chapter one,there are,3 months by 3 techs,not vets...the scientific end, much to be learned from medication stanpoint..After reading all this "fairyland" dreamteam.usless explanations,with fancy words you dream up .."TRYING TO BE "KNOWITALL" You have PROOVED NOTHING...the bird that rolled s.l.o.w.l.y..probably stuck its foot in its eye, on the way down. Scott 514...LEO
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motherlodelofts
34 posts
Jun 04, 2005
7:48 AM
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Leo I'm a little curious about the medication stand point.
Well was there anything any good out of what you got from Joe ? Joe was here not more than 10 min. ago
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jun 04, 2005 8:08 AM
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Leo
Member
53 posts
Jun 04, 2005
8:50 AM
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Scott, Joe was a heck of a nice guy, He took care of the birds i was after..I did get some real live spinners that were very good, as i recall'without looking'at papers one was a recessive red hen, one white tail feather, i used her on some 119 stuff I had, I got some serious rollers. This was a lot of yrs ago...LEO
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Mongrel Lofts
3 posts
Jun 06, 2005
12:14 AM
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Hey Leo my Lackey,
Joe is a good friend of mine.He has great birds. I was just using the black w/f as an example of a hen that rolled blood in her eye.. SHe rolled well, but not great.. I wonder if these numbers mean anything to you Leo?? 3859, 6164, 1704, 3845 rare hen, 119, 1079, 495 Clay hen, 145,1233, 272.. am I ringing any bells Leo? I wonder if your birds might have any of these birds in the back ground? Mongrel
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Leo
Member
54 posts
Jun 06, 2005
8:43 AM
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Well, its the 'COINCIDENCE KID'..you sound a little 'testy'..You did it yourself.. I called your Bluff..Your STORY.. ended,,so now you are trying again to try to downgrade somebody.LET ME HELP YOU..with your feeble attempt,and your band nos.68..1233s photo is on the cover of my 'catalog'1233 sold 450.and was 'hustled'..every black roller on the coast was 1233 offspring,...what a shame..63..3738 champion was given to me by WM. PENSOM ..OH, he was out of your 145 an 4220 hen, i still breed it true today,LETS SEE 119 this line is BOXED kept pure through 514, Probably keep the strongest 514 birds in existance today,You wondered if any nos were on my papers??? 514 over 50 times,on some,an boy you left a ton of band nos out...GET A GRIP....
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Mongrel Lofts
4 posts
Jun 06, 2005
12:49 PM
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Hi Leo,
Testy, not at all.. I just wanted to see where you were at and what kind of birds you are working with.. I had several 3/4 of the old #1233 cock that were bred and name banded by Frank Lavin.My family is loaded with #3859 stuff. Pretty good #514 cock.I have had Son's off of 2564 also, son of 119. I have the Pensom birds behind my birds Leo and could play numbers with you but, Your correct, I left out a lot of numbers . Problem is, Unless your a real flyer the pedigrees mean nothing.., You know what they are good for? What comes after a fart. LOL The numbers I sent, got the information I needed to know about what kind of flyer you are Leo.
Funny how one can fly rollers and see such different things from the same lines.. I hear you keep great paper work Leo..
I was just trying to share my experience with blood in the eye.. As useless as it might seam to an old expert like yourself. At least guys can hear both sides and decide if they want birds that roll blood in their eyes when they hit a nice roll, or if they want birds that spin just as nice and don't roll blood in their eye..
I thought Brian's post was right on Leo. He nailed this topic to the fence as far as I'm concerned!! Mongrel
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Leo
Member
55 posts
Jun 06, 2005
2:22 PM
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NO harm done, I stayed"on my toes" so to speak, I had met enough 'wise guys' I did not want to give out ANY of these findings,because of JUST WHAT I GOT...no questions,.no educated talk, A TON COULD HAVE BEEN LEARNED. there are several more chapters, Medical results,, Diet and blood relationship, inner ear work was extensive, And best of all, why the blood cannot go to the head, during preformance,There was NO concideration or respect, for the work WELL DONE...All i got was some dreamers theory and you .. even agree with a dreamed up THEORY..Now that you know me a bit better, put these THEORYS on paper..and l know a guy with an Outhouse....I learned a lot from this experience, I will never ever release any further information, on these findings.......Paul talked me into posting my findings,,aint heard a word from him since, Dont need no help now........LEO
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motherlodelofts
40 posts
Jun 06, 2005
8:30 PM
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Just curious Leo , how does any of this help breed better Rollers ? maybe I'm missing something here. I find that selection, breeding and traning is the key
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rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
306 posts
Jun 06, 2005
9:05 PM
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Hello Leo, PLEASE do not stop posting your findings. There are alot of us who want to know the truth (many more read these forums than will ever post).
If the discussion forum is not the place then I would be honored to have you place this info into our Roller Article archives for those of us who are eternal students and want to know what has been learned about the roller through this scientific research.
As we think about what all this new data means and how we apply it to breed better rollers, I want to "thank you" for sticking your neck out and taking the verbal pounding that seems to often come to those promoting something different than the status-quo.
Leo, Paul is in LA on business this week. Tomorrow, he and I will be playing "hookie" from work and visiting a couple lofts in So Cal. we will come back to see my loft and look at some Ruby Rollers til I take him back to his hotel.
I am sure he is appreciative of your effort as well and will probably tell you so once he can get to a computer and read this thread. LOL
Again, I ask, PLEASE DO NOT STOP posting your findings or making them available. Those with an open mind will follow the truth where ever it leads, even it if contradicts our current paradigm.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Leo
Member
57 posts
Jun 07, 2005
5:48 AM
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Motherlode, YOU ARE AMAZING, youve been trying to make make some one look, Bad through this whole series, and failed , i might add...Then post "Im courious" " mabe im missing something" "is it about PIGEONS" DAAA! Or do you do this to have the last word?..READ CAREFULLY.. THIS SITE IS ABOUT PIGEONS..IT ALL RELATES.....now be a good boy, you can come back when it "wears off"..what ever it is...LEO
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motherlodelofts
41 posts
Jun 07, 2005
6:01 AM
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Yea Tony real pounding that he's getting , maybe you need to go back and re-read these posts !!!!
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jun 07, 2005 6:15 AM
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Leo
Member
58 posts
Jun 07, 2005
6:33 AM
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It wasnt the pounding ,It was Dreamland Theorys I got for answers, INSTEAD OF GOOD SENSIBLE QUESTIONS, that I could have 'given' the information in the findings, or Q&A that I would have been glad to give what i had, MAN !!! How GREAT IT COULD HAVE BEEN..NOW...YOU READ THE POSTS..It just dont figure...I heard it on the radio yesterday talk show, he said"60% of the people like to hear and believe B.S." It really rang true. 60% B.S.??? I AM beginning to understand and I think I know who belongs where...LEO
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motherlodelofts
42 posts
Jun 07, 2005
6:46 AM
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Leo , how have we been trying to make you look bad ? Just because we don't agree with you ?
You say that a bird that rolls blood in the eye is a bird that rolls with exceptional speed , and yet it is caused by an outside injury and nothing else. If this was the case then speed would have nothing to do with it and falls in line with the experiance of others and yet you still claim that they have to be speed demons to do it.
My other thought is that we all get a few of those birds that bump so hard that we wonder how they live , eye's all swollen and all, yet it is a different type of injury verses a bird with blood in the eye nor do they show blood in the eye (or do some but I havn't noticed ? ). If it is from an external injury maybe their wings are beating the head during the stroke,but again why do some do and some don't ? plus the one's that I have seen don't seem to show the swelling and bruising from an external injury , if they are inflicting an external injury on their selfs it would have to do with the way they are built I assume, and even so is this something that we want to pass on ? as it does seem to pass on to at least some degree. Still alot of questions here and is anything but cut and dry.
Leo these are my "thoughts" from your post.
Actually Leo I find many of the things that you brought up from these tests interesting and I think it would be a good read , maybe we need to get off of the blood in the eye thing and get on to the meat of your findings.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jun 07, 2005 7:37 AM
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Leo
Member
59 posts
Jun 07, 2005
8:51 AM
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Scott, I said many are speedos, some could roll off center, be a wealth of feathers, atad long built, to many to list. You have them BEATING THEIR HEADS OFF< EVERY TIME THEY ROLL...not so, please, what ever you do,DO NOT READ MY POSTS...PLEASE! If they bleed through the eyes..you KILL them dirty suckers,..THEY HAVE FAULTS.!period....I bet your birds fly upside down & backwards in hot weather too. It is guys like you I would have expected to REALLY be intrested in this work, I was really disappointed in your answers, I guess i forgot 'YOU ALREADY KNEW IT ALL' ..If you want to get to the MEAT of it,"as you say"...You believe whatever, whoever,you want...I was standing here with the proof,AND YOU WALKED AWAY......LEO
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Ballrollers
19 posts
Jun 07, 2005
9:51 AM
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Leo, Sometimes I think you are more interested in being a victim in life, than in making a real contribution. You have dangled a tidbit of interesting information you have found (that may or may not be scientific evidence) in front of the readership. Then when the obvious questions are asked, you go sounding off, crying persecution. If you are going to have the courage to present new theories for anything, you have to have the courage and resilience to answer the questions and deal with the skeptics with sound data and logic. This is the basis of all science and is an important part of the process. It's not personal!!!!! So quit making it personal!!! I, for one, get a little tired of hearing you cry that you're going to take your ball and go home if we don't let you spoon feed us. Cliff
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
6 posts
Jun 07, 2005
10:47 AM
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Thank you Cliff. Eloquently spoken.
Brian.
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motherlodelofts
43 posts
Jun 07, 2005
10:50 AM
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Where did I go wrong on my last post Leo ??? I gave your first post what I thought was an honest assesment while tring to look at different angles ,this seemed to have pissed you off also , you just keep screaming "proof" which you have yet to share with us.
It is obvious that the only way to get along with you is for us to not give any thought about what you write and just accept it as set in stone, either that or make sure that we ask just the "right" quetions that suits you.
Leo I'm out of this topic , it is all yours.
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Leo
Member
60 posts
Jun 07, 2005
11:12 AM
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Cliff, I dont think you are reading these posts correctly, I am not taking it personal at all, what i am questioning is ,the lack of real intrest, in THE SCIENTIFIC work, It is obvious this entire program, would have been ,destroyed and no one would have benefited from it,had I done it any other way. "If you had read the posts". you sound alot like Scott, the way you talk....I really dont understand why you Are OFFERING YOUR 2 cents worth at this time?? Where the hell were you when it was comming down???? Where were your INTELLIGENT QUESTIONS???? You were a real asset to this endevor....Thanks anyway....LEO
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dave
10 posts
Jun 07, 2005
12:38 PM
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Leo, alot of people are interested in your findings, myself included. I just wish that you would just post all of your findings so we can see the whole picture. Your research can help a lot of guys out. There will always be criticism if some new findings are brought out that is against the norm like Darwin, Galileo, etc...
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Ballrollers
20 posts
Jun 07, 2005
1:47 PM
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Leo, It's great to hear that you have not taken anything personally. Let's try to move past the attack and defend mode. I offer my two cents, because like many other readers, we are interested in the information you have to offer. If it can documented that rollers, or other rolling breeds of pigeons, do indeed have increased blood flow to the brain, or an increase in the number or size of the vessels in the head and neck, that would be a significant finding and have ramifications far beyond rolling blood in the eye. At this point in time, it is merely an interesting finding. In order to establish the validity of the finding, more information is needed. How many birds were disected? It will take hundreds to establish it as fact. How were the birds euthanized? The method of killing may have created a false impression. How much time elapsed between death and dissection? Were they preserved? Frozen? Were non-rolling breeds also dissected for comparison? These are all important answers to know. You may well be on to something, Leo. But there are many blind alleys one must go down before true science and fact are recognized. Help us out here, my friend. Cliff
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nicksiders
128 posts
Jun 07, 2005
8:39 PM
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Leo - be patient with us. This information you gave has our jaws dropping and we want to know more and we want to know in detail so we can better understand it. The questions we have is on the post and the information contained there of. We are not questioning your integrety or taking any personal shots at you. Your experience is valuable to us and we want to probe. We are like childen with the "why Daddy, why" syndrome. Got to give us some slack; got to give us some informations; got to give us some facts;...........Leo - we love ya, man
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fhtfire
141 posts
Jun 08, 2005
7:31 PM
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Leo
I am back.. I was in LA for 5 days...taking fire dept classes with Los Angeles fire Dept as well as other department from all over the country...loads of fun!..looks like you have been taking a pounding...LOL! Anyway...I would love to have more info. Why don't you just release all the info and let the pieces fall where they may. People can take the info or leave the info. That is with just about everything in this world. You are going to always have agreements and disagreements. Like Ford vs. Chevy or the people that do not believe that you can clone a sheep...LOL! Anyway..I would love to have more info if at all possible....
rock and ROLL
Paul Fullerton
Last Edited by fhtfire on Jun 08, 2005 7:32 PM
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