Alan Bliven
167 posts
Jun 06, 2005
1:18 PM
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I found this very interesting article and took a quote out of it and would like some comments.
If this is true, the stiff is really a myth:
"It would be true that good rollers can come in an array of body types, colors, markings, expressional types and feather types. This is due simply because the purebred Birmingham Roller, when flown under the correct methods, has no choice but to roll at some point in its life, although many may appear to be non performers due to a greater genetic resistance to the roll and may not develop into the roll for two, three or even up to five years of age."
Taken from: http://www.pigeonworldwide.com/newsite/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=10
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Alan
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Leo
Member
56 posts
Jun 06, 2005
2:46 PM
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Hi Alan, its true, to simplify it you breed black to black several generations or blue selfs to blacks or these combinations hard to hard, some will fly 2 yrs or longer without rolling, However,put one of these birds on a red badge, red spangle, tort,lt grizzle, and the offspring will perform by fall, This is called roller breeding ...If you have a solid dark bird mate it to lite colored birds.....I better get out of here the experts are comming...Bye
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motherlodelofts
37 posts
Jun 06, 2005
3:31 PM
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Allan personally I don't have time to wait that long, what I have found with "my" birds is that if they don't come in prior to 12 mo. that they aren't going to. Now when I mean "come" in I mean rolling with qaulity and some frequency and a little depth.
But they all will do something,tumble,very short spins, Very stiff ect.
If I didn't have this I wouldn't have any culls now would I LOL
Birds that aren't at least showing me anything as far as potential by 12 mo. just tend not to get better if I hold on to them, I have held such birds for over 24 mo. just to see and found that they were just a waste of feed and perch space.
As for blue on blue being stiffs, it is nothing but a myth , it evolves around selection , you can also breed grizzles stiff, it is all selection,if it wasn't we would all have the same thing as it would then be really easy.
98 0/0 of my stock is hard colors (blue check/dark check)along with one Rec Red mottle and one washed out Rec. Red, my birds do not have a reputation of being stiff and if they did I would certainly look a different direction , they are very inbred/linebred and have been bred this way well over 20 years.
The Neible line is the same as far as hard colors, again anything but stiffs.
Personally I think that the "stiff" myth as far as hard colors comes from pedigree breeding the 514 line by so many and selection just off of the perch to load up a pedigree with particular band numbers of long dead birds, that is an assumption of coarse.
just my opinion and evolves around "my" birds as far as what I see.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jun 06, 2005 6:21 PM
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Alan Bliven
168 posts
Jun 06, 2005
4:37 PM
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What was shocking was he said, "it may take up to 5 years..." if true that bird would still be a cull, no one has that much patience... LOL And he'd surely pass that on to his progeny.
But I do find it interesting that all Rollers will roll in time even if it takes 5 years to do so.
My birds are Horner's Jac based and everyone of the blue check's I have are stiffs, they fly high and stronger than the other birds and rarely even flip. I'll have to ask him if he breeds these back to the others for balance.
Like you said, every family is different. We shouldn't stereotype them and say all blue check Rollers are stiffs.
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Alan
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Velo99
6 posts
Jun 06, 2005
5:46 PM
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I have several blue bars as well as an "opal" bar that do just fine. Not great but scorable. my 318 bird,little bitty smoky hen,will bust 30 at least 5 times a 30 min session.
Btw what is the best "fly" time for everyday practice. Mine usually go around 30 -40 mins. I figger if I take my five,I should catch the kit when they are getting warmed up pretty good. I may try to shorten their fly time a bit so I can catch the most productive last 5 mins of the session.
In my breeder loft I am mixing almost white griz with hard colors, reds and blues. Gonna be interesting to see what happens . The griz usually comes in at 4 months and is pretty hot where the hard color birds are a bit more conservative
To all newbies, get a stopwatch. I never thought it would come in as handy as it does. I use it for three different things. Total flight time,roll time,and trap time.
For me time kinda goes away while I am "flying".
mtc/yits
v99
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motherlodelofts
38 posts
Jun 06, 2005
6:25 PM
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Alan I would say it is a family thing as far as those checkers go, or just the pair, they sound like a problem though.
I wouldn't breed out of any late developer let alone allowing a bird that isn't any good hang around for 5 years, on the same hand I'm not fond of very early developers either
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jun 06, 2005 6:37 PM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
5 posts
Jun 06, 2005
11:47 PM
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Alan, odd that you say that about your Horner Blue Checks. My blue check Horners are the best of that family. I have several that can rip. The torts seem to run a close second to the blue checks over here. Some of the blue checks are out of black to blue check matings and others are out of tort to tort. I sorted through a bunch of birds Danny sent to last year's Pageant auction and decided on a black cock and blue hen, both '04 birds non flown. Paired them up and already I have blue checks off of them hitting 10-15 fast rolls.
BTW, all of my Horners want to fly high, I haven't found the color to be an issue of whether or not they want to go up or not. Once they hit one year of age, they all want to fly high anyways so it evens out in the end regardless..lol.
Brian.
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J_Star
5 posts
Jun 07, 2005
5:07 AM
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Alan,
Wait a little on those blue check birds. I thought the same thing when I was flying my birds last summer. The blue check and tortes were slow developer. This season they are the tightest and the fastest and also 'A' type style. They started spinning for me at around 9 to10 months but I say it was worth the wait. The red bar (mealy) was the fastest developers at around 3 months but some become bumpers. The blue bars (self or w/f) and the badges are also excellent. I have a pair of homo whites that are really supper. Frequent and adjust their depth all the times. You will see the control when they are landing or leaving the kit box. The 20-30 footers will become 5 footers at this time. I did get a couple of rolldown from him and they culled themselves. I decided to wait on breeding until two season pass to make sure I am breeding from the best and thus far all my birds don't bump and they all adjust their depth when rolling. To stop them from flying high, cut down on the Wheat. Mix half Wheat and half Milo and you will like the result. Before mixing the feed, put them on straight Milo for about five to six days then start the mix. They really love to fly, therefore, manage their flying time with how much feed to give them. This is from my experience with the Horner’s birds that I have. He just sent me an older 03 and 04 blue bar selves that are descendant from Black Rain for me to breed from saying they are some of his best. I am breaking them in currently and will start flying them at the end of this month b4 breeding them. I hope they will produce the goods for me. If you have any questions just let me know. Thanks.
Jay
Last Edited by J_Star on Jun 07, 2005 5:10 AM
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Alan Bliven
171 posts
Jun 07, 2005
7:32 AM
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Thanks guys, I appreciate it. I haven't been working with them long and it looks like I misjudged them.
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Alan
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Ballrollers
18 posts
Jun 07, 2005
9:01 AM
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It seems to me that we have to be very careful associating roll with color or mental character with color. I think it was Hans Rottenbacher who said in an article he wrote that "the genes for character and the genes for performance apparently do not transmit locked with the genes for color." Every time we think we have identified a pattern or connection between the two, you see the very opposite in another loft. Possibly it is family-related and perhaps it is not. We have all seen stiffs of every color and roll downs of every colorin most every family. Even Pensom produced hundreds of unstable rollers in his preferred hard colors. Erroneous conclusions drawn from chance randon events are not a factual basis for a theorum. Sloppy breeding, sloppy records, and poor selection in matings is probably more to blame. Stiff is definitely not a myth. I think we may be dealing with a semantic issue here. You may have a bird that is stiff for several years and that bird has the potential to begin flipping in singles, doubles, or triples at any time. One man may describe this as rolling. I do not and would not use such a birds in my program in any way, in breeding or in performance, So what's the point? Cliff
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Jun 07, 2005 9:36 AM
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spinnerpigeon
14 posts
Jun 07, 2005
11:11 AM
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I think that much of this color/performance or color/character is all family based. I think that it would vary from one loft to another. Cliff you hit the nail on the head.
Caleb
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
235 posts
Jun 07, 2005
3:31 PM
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Jay. You mentioned the A-Style of rolling.Just recently I have heard this 3 or 4 times now.All my life all I heard was the X & H style type.H-Style being the type to breed for.Where did the A-Style come from and what is it suppose to be. David
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motherlodelofts
44 posts
Jun 07, 2005
5:37 PM
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Cliff good post, I think that there is a "line" that charactor follows as far as color " to a degree". When you get into a hard color family such as the one I fly, there is still a "hard" side and a "soft" side of the family, the soft side being "smokey".
When Rick Shoening was here for the W/C we were talking about the Neible's , I beleive he said that with the one's he is working it looked to him like the Blue Bars were the soft side compared to the Red Checkers in the family.
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
7 posts
Jun 07, 2005
9:17 PM
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David, the A pattern is just as it looks in the letter A. When viewed from the front, the wings appear to be touching or nearly touching at the top while at the bottom the wings are far apart. If the bird has any kind of speed to it, from a frontal view, it will have an A appearance. If you are familiar with what an H or X looks like, you have probably seen the A pattern before. It is fairly common. You just have to see it at the frontal angle.
Brian.
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
236 posts
Jun 08, 2005
3:08 AM
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Thanks Brian.Something else I have to try to look at.LOL.
I will see if I can pick up on it.Never knew there was such a thing.Did I understand you to say that I will see it in the faster rollers only.That would narrow down the ones to watch.Is this something that comes as they get older? I would be interested in anything there is to know about this style.I never knew untill recently that they beat their wings while rolling.Who says you can,t teach an old dog anything.LOL. David
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J_Star
6 posts
Jun 08, 2005
4:38 AM
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Bluesman,
Not every roller will have the ‘A’ style of rolling. Most of mine and the ones I have seen flying exhibit the ‘H’ style. The ‘A’ style rolling will become like a saw blade rolling down in the sky since the wings are tucked in and the flight feathers from both wings are touching each other. I don’t think that the ‘A’ style is more common like Brian said and I think this style is more desirable to allot of fanciers. I don’t have any ‘X’ style birds, therefore, I can not comment on them. Like Brian said, you will be able to see clearly from the frontal aerial view. I don’t know if the ‘A’ style goes hand in hand with speed, but the ones I have exhibit a good speed to them. If anybody can contribute, please elaborate. Thanks.
Jay
Last Edited by J_Star on Jun 08, 2005 4:39 AM
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motherlodelofts
48 posts
Jun 08, 2005
6:21 AM
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In reality I probably breed more high X than anything (honest assesment) high X is usually mistaken for a true H. "True" H with speed and balance looks like a tennis ball with circular saw blabes on the side , you don't see such birds everyday and certainly not in huge numbers and they are one of my personal favorites. I also might add that speed hides a lot of faults and from what I have seen is many birds (not all) where the wing blurs out is a case of slightly off balance and speed.
With my birds condition also plays a huge roll in qaulity , when they are right the wings pick up more along with the speed. When the balance is there though the wings are hard to hide unless they are () type rollers.
Pensom talks about the hole , I think what this showed him was perfect "balance" of the roll. No matter what the wing position if the balance is there the X the A and the H look perfectly crisp as the letters, in other words with a true H the wings look like a perfectly straight line.
Just my opinion
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jun 08, 2005 7:53 AM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
238 posts
Jun 08, 2005
7:45 AM
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Scott.Same here.A true H is just not an everyday occurance.Thats why I was surprised at this A Style roller coming on all of a sudden.I know with the net and all the video equipment that is available that some things are going to be able to tell what is what rather than what the eye can see.I really have trouble seeing the styles when they are getting it on.I have to pick a single bird and study it for days before I can tell.Usually if its a good clean roll the style is there I think. David
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motherlodelofts
49 posts
Jun 08, 2005
7:50 AM
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Dave my experiance is that video shows all except the very best as ugly , I breed very few A style , again the balance has to be there to see it, it looks like a perfect A. Same with a true H ,not just something that sorta kinda looks like it
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jun 08, 2005 7:51 AM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
9 posts
Jun 08, 2005
1:01 PM
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I get several A pattern rollers, especially from one particular family I have. One pair throws me nothing but A pattern rollers which are all black white flights so the pattern during the roll really shows up when viewed from the front. Even to this point, I am really undecided if I like the A patterns. The ones that seem okay are like Scott said, the ones that are balanced in the roll. I would say that probably overall, the majority of my kit birds are X or tight X with a handful of H pattern if you catch the angle just right.
David, here is a quick gif of an A pattern roller in slow motion. Notice the wings touching on the top and wide open at the bottom.
I am not sure if this will work. Try clicking on it the link, if not, then copy and paste it into your browser.
http://www.pbase.com/bmc1/image/43214339.gif
Brian.
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
243 posts
Jun 08, 2005
3:25 PM
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Brian.WOW. Very good.Did you film this.Do you have any other styles you can share?
Could the sound I hear from some of the rollers(smokers) be the wing tips coming together?
This is some interesting stuff.LOL. David
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
12 posts
Jun 08, 2005
4:26 PM
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No David I did not film it. It was filmed by Clay Hoyle who posted the individual frames from one of his film footages on one of our roller lists. I then took them and made a gif out of them so we could see it in slow motion.
I would suspect that the ruffling sound you might hear when the birds roll down low would probably be the wings touching.
Brian.
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fhtfire
143 posts
Jun 08, 2005
7:43 PM
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I have to agree with Scott on the hard color to hard color breeding thing. I have a pair that I mate..a Blue Bar Self to a Black Self Hen...all I get out of the offspring is Blacks or Blue Bars and the Blacks are very good. I also have a pair of Chuck Roe Blue Checks together and they only produce Blue Checkers and they are a little hot....I do not know...about the color thing...I think it is a myth..Hell look at Tonys Ruby Rollers....a lot of them are red checks and Mealy bars...just my thoughts..
rock and ROLL
Paul Fullerton
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fhtfire
144 posts
Jun 08, 2005
7:43 PM
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I have to agree with Scott on the hard color to hard color breeding thing. I have a pair that I mate..a Blue Bar Self to a Black Self Hen...all I get out of the offspring is Blacks or Blue Bars and the Blacks are very good. I also have a pair of Chuck Roe Blue Checks together and they only produce Blue Checkers and they are a little hot....I do not know...about the color thing...I think it is a myth..Hell look at Tonys Ruby Rollers....a lot of them are red checks and Mealy bars...just my thoughts..
rock and ROLL
Paul Fullerton
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