nicksiders
127 posts
Jun 07, 2005
8:25 PM
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I have been watching people in and around my area fly for a couple of years now. I have noted that some kit go extremely high and wonder if this would hurt their score in competition.
It is hard for me to estimate how high some are flying, but it looks as though some are flying 900, 1000, 1200 feet. Hard to watch up there and the fun dissipates for me the higher they get. I like to watch them way down at the 300 to 600 feet range.........
Will flying them that low hurt my chances competing? Do the birds perform better a 900 feet plus? Is that where the WC wants them to fly (900ft plus)?
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
8 posts
Jun 07, 2005
9:34 PM
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Nick, a kit that flys too high for the judge to accurately dissect what is happening will in almost every case, hurt their chance of continuing to score. Each judge has different vision. Some might not be able to see clearly past 600 feet while others with say 20/20 vision could still be able to score a kit that is breaking and rolling properly upwards of 700-800 feet or more. A lot of it depends on the skys at the time. You can get away with a kit flying higher in overcast skies as the bird's silhoette is more easily distinguisable, though quality assumptions are pretty much out the window at that point. In blue skies, the birds may be very difficult to see at all at that same height.
I have used a range finder on my kits and the height my birds work their best at while still being easy to see and easy to tell the trash from the good ones is about 400 feet. In essence you are correct that 300-600 is the best range. Usually a good kit won't start to really let it out until they get a little air under them.
The WC or NBRC doesn't dictate a specific height requirement for competition. It would be safe to assume that any kits that dot out above 900 feet won't be scored, regardless if you think you can see them doing something.
The hard part for most flyers is getting a kit to stay in a good height range without compromising speed, unison and a variety of other small but important things that make a team gell together and perform to the best of their abilities.
Some families are prone to flying low while others have a tendency to want to fly high. Figuring them out can be a struggle, especially when you factor in weather, hormones and all the other things we have yet to fully understand.
If I try to make my old team stay down low, the frequency and speed will suffer greatly. If I feed them like racing homers and don't fly them much, they will give me 20 minutes or more at the 400-500 range and break solid, then climb for the clouds for a few hours. I wish I could find a happy medium without giving up quality and speed. The guys who can figure it out and get the whole package together on fly day are some of the best handlers around.
Brian.
Last Edited by MCCORMICKLOFTS on Jun 07, 2005 9:34 PM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
237 posts
Jun 08, 2005
3:25 AM
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Brian.I know we have discussed this flying time before.And this is my biggest problem with my family of rollers.You have said on several occasions that your birds will fly for hours.I have always had a problem getting mine to fly for 30 to 45 minutes.Mostly 25 minutes is the most I can get from them and still have them trap in a fair amount of time.Are your rollers trapping good when they come back after flying that long?I can keep flagging them up but all they do is circle around treetop high before trying to land again.
This year I started with the young and tried to make them fly longer.If I increase the feed to get them longer they won,t trap and unless I stand there with them they will soon fly down to the ground to feed.I never allow my birds on the ground.What am I doing wrong? I know they are smarter than me and jerk me around.LOL.I have tried every feed combinations I have heard of but I lose control when I over feed to get more time. David
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TheWoodLoft
3 posts
Jun 08, 2005
3:59 AM
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BLUESMAN MY BIRDS DO THE SAME THING FLY TREETOP HIGH FOR JUST A BIT THEN THEN WANT TO PERCH ON THE NEIGHBORS GARAGE OR ON THE GROUND TO PICK AT GROUND. I CAN SEE THE POTENTAL MY RED COCK BIRD HAS BUT HOW DO I GET HIM TO THAT POINT? I POSTED A NEW TOPIC ON THIS A FEW MIN AGO. WE DO SPRAY THEM WITH THE HOSE WHEN THEY PERCH WHERE THEY ARNT SUPPOSE TO.
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motherlodelofts
47 posts
Jun 08, 2005
6:04 AM
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Are they youngsters ? are they color birds ? ooooops LOL
Dave I would go the opposite directs and lean them out a bit,pull all excess wt. off of them , fat men do not run marithones for a reason , also try and find birds that are holding them down. Pull the wt off with Milo and Barley
If they are youngsters then DO NOT do this , my youngsters will do the same, as they mature HT and time increases
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jun 08, 2005 6:08 AM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
239 posts
Jun 08, 2005
8:03 AM
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Scott.Yes they are all this years birds.Yes there is a few Color rollers in the kits too.hehe. These are the ones that are rolling good.Qualmonds,Indigos etc.
I changed Brands of feed last year and thinking back this is about the time I started having problems with my birds flying different.Suppose to be the same percentage (12%)but the other brand had 2 extra grains in it.It cost 5.00 a bag more too.I had the Mill order me some today and I am going to see if that was the difference.Had to buy a half ton but the more I thought about it the more convinced I am that this is when my problem started.Seems like such a small thing but its the only thing different I can think of and I never had trouble untill late last fall.David
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motherlodelofts
50 posts
Jun 08, 2005
8:21 AM
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Dave this time of year birds flying becomes a hot topic due to youngsters , I just don't worry about it as I know that as they mature they just start changing, one thing that I will do though is if I feel they land early, I will let them sit on the roof for five min or so then flag back up, if they are looking hungry though I'll let them trap and up the feed a tad.
So your color birds are the better rollers hmmmm LOL
I am seeing some activity out of my oldest youngsters but "nothing" I would call truelly good, but then I don't expect to this early nor do I really want to see it right now as chances are they would end up biteing the dust if they did
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
240 posts
Jun 08, 2005
9:14 AM
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Scott.I didn,t say they were better rollers.They are just early starters.More frequency and use up more energy than the others.And I can only fly them every other day or they will wind up crashing.Actually the only way to fly them right would be either feed them by themselves or have just a kit of them.And I don,t have time to feed them alone.After they go thru the first moult they will settle down and stablize.Most of them anyway.The ones that don,t cull themselves.I have a little George mason hen that is the same way.20 foot + and average once a minute.They will be 5 month old the week of June 15th.Most of the Masons usually are later starters and very unpredictable.LOL. David
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Shaun
1 post
Jun 08, 2005
12:49 PM
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David, I'm from England, and started with rollers just two months ago. It seems like ages ago, but at the time I just wanted some garden (yard) entertainment. I picked up birds quite cheaply because I hadn't realised how involved the whole roller thing is. Consequently, I obtained birds which rolled - at times very well - but which it would probably be very easy for a pro to find fault with.
So, having realised that I needed to up the ante, I moved things up a notch and contacted Graham Dexter, the author of "Winners with Spinners". He's president of our national roller club and with decades of experience, he's been a godsend in terms of generous information. Funnily enough, if I'd tracked down his book earlier, he could have avoided having to answer tons of my basic but burning questions. Anyway, despite the book being out of print, I obtained a copy and read it from cover to cover - twice (but I still plague him regularly with questions).
George Mason (a longstanding friend of Graham's) featured heavily in the book - and he's still a prolific competition flyer and breeder. So, following Graham's advice, I contacted George a couple of weeks ago and he agreed to breed me 20 birds, which I will collect in July. I'm ordered to lock the whole lot up and let them breed next year; these will be my foundation stock.
Meanwhile, with my being desperate for something decent to fly this year, George had 6 young birds (about 6 weeks old) going spare; I grabbed these quickly and he had them down to me the next day. At the moment they're at the early training stage - not too big a kit for a novice like me to start with, but big enough to learn from (and I'll be adding some that I breed myself from my other birds to this small kit, over the coming months). At the moment, George's birds are flapping around the loft and garden and generally learning where they live and what their surroundings are. I'm applying trapping techniques which Graham Dexter wrote about some years ago, which still hold true today. So, for the moment, it's all textbook stuff which is going as it should; but only time will tell.
I've heard that George's birds - despite their undoubted pedigree - can be a handful. Only time will tell whether I'll soon ruin them!
Cheers.
Shaun
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
10 posts
Jun 08, 2005
1:18 PM
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David, I can honestly say that I wish I had your problem..lol. My old birds are kept fit for a reason. That reason is because when fed up with good bodies, they exhibit the spin speed I like to see and for some odd reason, will do their business in good viewing height, then lift up for hours. Its a strange thing and I have no idea why they do it other than being in real good shape I guess.
Today my #1 and #2 young teams, both 5-6 months old flew for more than an hour. Some stayed up there and few for two hours and they get fed just the same, only they fly every other day.
I think comparing notes between me and you would be somewhat challenging as our flying environments are very different. My place if very open sky where I believe yours has lots of trees. Where I live, especially this time of year, the barometer is never steady with heavy rises and falls each day. The humidity after 9 am is very weak and at about this time we get some pretty wicked thermals from the warming earth that I truly believe dictates heavily on the fly time of a kit.
If I had to make one suggestion I would think that upping the percentage of wheat in your bird's diet would probably put some more wing time on them. This is only speculation but I believe you might find them flying longer on more wheat. It is something I have been paying a little more attention to lately given the spring weather patterns.
Brian.
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spinnerpigeon
15 posts
Jun 08, 2005
2:18 PM
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Brian,
Just a question. Are you feeding the flying birds any corn??
I fed my birds some corn last year and they would fly for 1 or 2 hours straight! But it seemed that after I removed the corn from the diet they did much better. Just my 2 cents.
Caleb
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
242 posts
Jun 08, 2005
2:26 PM
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Shaun.Good to hear from you.I too have Dexters books and we won,t even go there as to how many times I have read them.LOL. I still find something I seem to have overlooked.
Don,t worry about messing up George's birds.Just fly the heck out of them and let them tell you what to do.Some start early,some in between and some later.Seldom do I have to cull any of his stock for not rolling.A few non kitters and some that just don,t get it together but overall they are real good rollers.The ones I keep roll really good and frequent.I fly several families together and this isn,t always good.I don,t have enough Mason's close to the same age to fly them seperate this year.Keep us informed on what ole George is doing.LOL. David
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Mongrel Lofts
7 posts
Jun 08, 2005
2:28 PM
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Trying flying a kit of swallows, pheasant pigeons, fantails or ice pigeons.. I think you will find where all this low flying is coming from!! LOL I'm only kidding.. Just had to chuckle.. Mongrel
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
11 posts
Jun 08, 2005
2:36 PM
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No corn Caleb, just wheat/peas/milo with the ratio depending on my attitude at the time of feeding. We don't need corn where I live, even during the winter as it seldom gets near freezing.
Brian.
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
244 posts
Jun 08, 2005
3:37 PM
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Kenny.You can poke fun and chuckle now but if I ever get to fly you won,t have a chance of winning again.I'm just kidding too.hehe. David
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Mongrel Lofts
8 posts
Jun 08, 2005
3:49 PM
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David,
Why haven't you had the chance to fly in the past? I don't have much of a chance now, so I welcome another fly guy to beat on me.. LOL
Brian, cut the milo out of the mix and see if your birds don't start to come down in about 7 days.
I feed hard red Wheat 80% of the time to my A-team, and just put in Austrian peas for a boost every now and then...
I do get them flying high at times, but a lot of the flying height can depend on weather conditions.. Mongrel
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
245 posts
Jun 08, 2005
3:56 PM
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Brian.Should I try more wheat now or wait untill after they go thru the first moult? I only fly once a day.Would it help develop muscle more or take away from them. My wheat is only testing at between 9 & 10 percent.I also have to buy it each fall and store it all year untill I can get it again.I have been told that it loses value the longer you keep it.
I have found that humidity has a lot to do with their air time.Works on me too.LOL.Last few days it has been in the 90s and very high humidity.Sweat just pours even while just sitting in the shade.
I have heard that some use Barometers to fly their birds.Don,t know if it would be any benifit to me or not.I think its like fishing.The best time is when you take time.LOL. David
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
246 posts
Jun 08, 2005
4:02 PM
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Ken.We are so scattered out here that you can,t get enough together to meet the 10 kit minimum to qualify.We are still working on it and just maybe we will pull it off this fall.Couple of fellows are planing on flying 2 kits.
Do you have to have 10 kits of 11 to qualify or are they counted along with the 20s? David
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
13 posts
Jun 08, 2005
4:35 PM
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KGB, I did the straight wheat thing before and they flew high and long as well and were railed out, which I personall don't care for. I don't mind the fly time really. As long as they give me 20 in the zone, I dont care what they do after that. I usually fly two or three young kits under them when they are up. I only fly the old birds twice a week so I believe it has more to do with being in good shape, or so I suspect. I know milo will give them some lift, but I suspect there are other things in the mix as well, most precisely, being damn old birds with set ways..lol.
David, in regards to barometer. I have found that it doesn't matter where the barometer is at, but if it is on a swing up or down. That is when I see the odd difference in fly height, usually with the kit coming out and going up so fast they are out of sight in minutes. A quickly rising or falling barometer seems to be connected. I am no weatherman so I don't know why, but that seems to be the case, too much moving air I guess.
Brian.
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siddiqir
11 posts
Jun 10, 2005
10:04 AM
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Brain, can you tell me what kind of wheat you use? % of protein, is it red wheat? Hard/soft?. My birds get down on me after a week if I give them straight wheat. Wheat I believe get them in good/lean fly condition however after a week I need to give them boost either by pigeon mix or peas to have them back up again. I do not give grit or vitamins to flying rollers. Thanks, -Rauf
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
15 posts
Jun 10, 2005
10:14 AM
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Rauf, I use hard red winter wheat supplied by my local mill. It is usually fairly decent grade, occasionally I get a good load of big fat human grade wheat, but for the most part I would say it is the normal 12 percent-ish. If I feed my old birds straight wheat for several days straight, they will shut off most of the roll if flown regularly.
Brian.
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siddiqir
12 posts
Jun 10, 2005
10:53 AM
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Brain, on my birds wheat or Milo some what have some affect if fed straight for week or more.
To have them stay in the air and perform I can not just give them straight wheat or Milo for week or more (not working for me here)
I noticed Milo thin them down pretty quickly and initially take them higher however they start getting down too soon if continue to give them for more them a week.
Wheat/milo/peas fed separately kind of work but they fly too strong and fast. I hope they get straight up as they get mature. They're about 2 1/2 months old. Thanks, -Rauf
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
275 posts
Jun 15, 2005
3:54 AM
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Brian. In an earlier post you said;
If I had to make one suggestion I would think that upping the percentage of wheat in your bird's diet would probably put some more wing time on them. This is only speculation but I believe you might find them flying longer on more wheat. It is something I have been paying a little more attention to lately given the spring weather patterns.
Brian
O.K. It worked.I slowly started adding extra wheat.I have learned that slowly doing a change works better for me.LOL.They have flew for 50 to 55 minutes the past 3 days.They are trapping good and I like the time since I only fly each kit once a day.
Now I have another problem.I have lost the roll both in quality and frequency.I guess I should say more so the quality as over the 55 minutes they are rolling about as many times but most of this is in the last 10 minutes.Yesterday they flew left wing only except on 3 occasions and this is where I seen my best performances.
What would you suggest I do now to even it out or should I just keep them there and let them mature untill after their first moult.Thanks for helping. David
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Alohazona
14 posts
Jun 15, 2005
11:14 AM
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Aloha David,don't mean to be a BUTINSKY,if you fly every day you can make them into flyers and lean them out,and flying them every other day can sometimes be the same as flying every day.You might try giving them 2 days but not more than 3 days rest,to break it up.Feed them as you see fit.If they were skying up on you alittle,put some safflower in their mix or seperate bowl their first day of rest,maybe alittle popcorn[not buttered,lol]to put alittle weight back on them,this time of year it doesn't hurt for the feathering.Hope this helps,ALOHA,Todd
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
277 posts
Jun 15, 2005
11:53 AM
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Todd. Jump right in any time.I enjoy everyones imput.Sometimes what don,t work today will work tomorrow.I am really happy with my young kits this year.Now that I have them flying longer it is showing great improvement.
Today was an awesome day of flying.It cooled down this morning and the humidity was way down and the birds sure was enjoying it.Had me talking to myself again.LOL.Yes I even answer myself sometimes.David
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Ballrollers
25 posts
Jun 15, 2005
1:01 PM
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Hey Group, It's really quite a juggling act isn't it? I decided not to worry too much about roll quality just yet. On peas and wheat the 11-bird kit is flying perfectly in height and time, and very active with one 20-30 ft. speedster. Like Scott said, I don't want much more at this stage. The 20-bird kit had a little harder time getting the altitude and time, but some of this is just patience. They are doing great now. Being consistent with the feed is important. These birds want to fly and will do so in time. Some of the early landing is lack of volume of feed. Too much milo brought my birds down too much and the 30 footer started bumping coming in. He hasn't done it since, with more protein. Knowing the Yandle/Turner family is on the hotter side, I have hit them hard with protein, vitamins and supplements as they are developing so they can develope more control. So far it seems too be working....no crashers, just slow steady development. For what its worth....Cliff
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Velo99
15 posts
Jun 15, 2005
1:48 PM
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I too am just waiting for the roll. Most of the kit I have now is this years birds. I have 4 of 12 that are holdovers.
My y/bs are flying about thirty-forty minutes. Starting out about 300-400 feet and working down from there. I have a couple rolling pretty well and a few more who are really close to getting it.
I have ten more squeaks going up in a week or so. I will to wait some more for the roll. As long as it here before the fall :)
Patience (and air time)is the key
MTC
v99
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
278 posts
Jun 15, 2005
3:05 PM
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Cliff.What kind of peas are you using?The only peas in my 12% mix is Canadian Peas.Even the chickens don,t like them.LOL.
Actually the only grains that are in the mix is Milo,Canadian Peas,Wheat and Millet.David
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siddiqir
13 posts
Jun 16, 2005
9:31 AM
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What percentage of wheat/milo/peas you guy feed to flying rollers? I mostly do 30%/30%/30% and feed grain separately. They give good flying time however I am trying to lifting them up a bit. May be more milo??? what you guys think. Thanks, -Rauf
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Ballrollers
27 posts
Jun 16, 2005
10:02 AM
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Dave, My basic mix has both Canadian and Austrian peas, milo, wheat and a little millet. I add wheat for the flyers, pellets for the breeders, and safflower during the molt.That seems to simplify things for each group. Cliff
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Velo99
16 posts
Jun 16, 2005
6:30 PM
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I was feeding 3:1 milo wheat and was having pretty good results. Fly time was good,height was in parameters. Only thing was the kit would go flat in a minute. Two days ago I sifted the white and brown peas out of some mix, about ten cups, mixed it with 25 pounds of feed. Looks like an decent mix. Today they were a lot better. 10 mph sw wind 34% humidity,about 5:45 pm. Even the stiffer birds were rolling some. How much protien is in the peas. I think I finally found the mix that works right for my birds.
Another question is,if you like the amount that you`re feeding is it possible to adjust the roll with protien? Would you fine tune with it instead?
just found a new toy,
v99
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
282 posts
Jun 17, 2005
2:53 AM
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V99. I am where you are at now.Over the past few years I finally think I found the one mistake that was really messing my young birds up.I was trying to get them to fly higher,Fly longer and still produce the roll.
After Brian told me to increase the wheat to get more fly time and height it rang a bell in my tiny brain.I realized that first I would get them up and fly the time.Now I have them flying 45 to 50 minutes and at a good height and yesterday I seen the roll starting to improve.It is probably to much to think I have found the right mix because it seems to be a constant changing thing with these rollers.However for now I am content with just keeping them up and I think the roll will come later.After they mature then I will try to increase the roll.I may be wrong again but this is where I am at this year.LOL. David
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big al
20 posts
Jun 17, 2005
7:34 PM
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Hi David!
Hey do your youngsters get a little light on only wheat after some time? Or are you supplementing?
----------
Big Al
"High Plains Spinner Loft"
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
287 posts
Jun 18, 2005
3:32 AM
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Big Al. I guess I didn,t explain things very clear.I am not feeding just wheat.I am feeding a 12% grain mix and wheat.I cut this 12% mix with wheat.50/50. When Brian said feed more wheat I just added more wheat to what I was feeding.I didn,t cut the feed in volume but added approx. 3 tablespoons more of wheat.They are flying between 50 minutes to an hour.Monday I am slowly going to back them off to around 45 minutes.I don,t want them getting to where they want to fly long periods and not roll.
Another thing my wheat is testing at around 9% protein.My birds will starve on just wheat.LOL. David
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