Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
260 posts
Jun 10, 2005
10:52 AM
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George.I don,t see no reason why you couldn,t compete at a World Class level and still sell birds.Just don,t sell off the birds you are going to compete with.LOL. David
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J_Star
9 posts
Jun 10, 2005
12:29 PM
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If you are afraid of being called feather merchant, then don't. If you fly in those completions and you are ranked with big dogs in the stats book, then do sell as many as you can and don't forget to charge good money for them. Because they will sell like hot cakes and you will not be able to keep up with the demand....
Jay
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rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
308 posts
Jun 10, 2005
1:18 PM
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Hey George, I suppose only those with "chutzpah" or who "think outside the box" will attempt it. LOL
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Mongrel Lofts
10 posts
Jun 10, 2005
1:36 PM
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George,
To be honest with you here George, NO!! I don't think so. What some of the best fliers are doing and doing a good job of it. Is flying the big flys and then selling off the kits after the big fly to make room for next years crop.. If your selling your young birds and not flying them out to pick the best birds for your comp teams.. You might do ok, but your selling your real shot at the big flys..
I guess one could just keep an old team and a few young ones and sell year round, but it won't be long before this nips you in the butt..
If selling is your priority, you won't be doing much winning.. Hell, if flying is your priority you won't be doing much winning.. Anyone want to buy some birds?? LOL Mongrel
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rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
309 posts
Jun 10, 2005
1:42 PM
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Nothing like a good challenge to wake you up in the AM, heheheheh.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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fhtfire
147 posts
Jun 10, 2005
2:56 PM
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I think that it can be done. For one...we all know that pigeons breed like rabbits. No matter how many you sell...the percentages are about the same across the board with a good established family. For example...lets just say you have 12 PROVEN breeders and out of every round you get 2 kick ass....2 really strong kit birds...and the rest are culls(High standards)...you are damn near your 20% average. So lets say you have damn good stock and you know your birds...and they are birds that you have flown for a long time...or a strain that you developed. You could easily keep 3 or 4 teams around and still sell. You have one old bird kit...one hold over kit....and a kit of young.....The rest can go for sale. You can then weed down the next year...a couple rounds for yourself and the rest for sale...or add some more young as you cull. I do not think it would be that hard.
As long as you are selling your the stock that you are claiming to sell you should be alright....and also....as long as you are still pulling birds for yourself and flying them out and keeping good records just to make sure that you are still on track. As long as you put the improvement of your birds first and sales second you should be able to handle it.
It would not be that hard...instead of shutting down your breeders after 4 or 5 months of breeding you just let them go. OR have two groups of breeders of high quality and rotate them...when your first team of breeders need rest you let the second team breed. I myself am on my last round for myself...That would give me 3 kits to fly, record and improve upon. What would be so bad about letting them continue to breed another couple of months if some dudes wanted to buy a couple rounds.
I also think that it would be a wise idea that any new breedings or experimental first time pairings..should have the offspring put in your kit box and flown out before selling birds from an unproven pair. If it was early 2006 and I was getting a kit of squeekers from 2005 parents....I myself would not be happy...but it the parents are 03...2000...98 etc....then I know that those birds are still around for a reason. Anyway..As long as the pairs are proven pairs.....the seller is a good fancier.....like Tony, or Scott or Brian...I think that it could be done. It would be a full time job...but should not be hard to do. But if you start throwing all kinds of birds together just to pump out babies and make false claims.....then you are in for a very short ride.....
rock and ROLL
Paul Fullerton
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Alan Bliven
172 posts
Jun 10, 2005
9:09 PM
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I don't see the big deal. I don't understand why someone can't fly the best birds and sell birds too. The selling part is a help to the hobby not a hindrance.
If I was competing at a high standard every year why couldn't I take some of the best of every year's "A" team and breed from them the next year and sell the young? I could have been doing that for the last 10 years or more and have a lot of good stock to sell from. Pigeons breed for 10 years plus. Of course you would keep the young from your very best birds for your competitions.
Of course you'd need a lot more loft space but it wouldn't have to compete with every years competition. That is if you have enough spare time and space.
I wish more people would do it so we could improve the breed as a whole. There's enough junk out there as it is.
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Alan
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nicksiders
131 posts
Jun 10, 2005
10:45 PM
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Well, for me I am not going to buy another roller. I got enough of my own "junk" to grow from without adding someone elses "junk". LOL
I really don't believe you can serve two masters. If you are going to be a winning breeder you can't be a winning merchant and vice versa. Time; space; and energy.
There are few merchants that can say they made everybody they sold to better competitors. The only breeder I know who can say he improved everyone who got birds from him is in my own town, but he sells and/or gives away very, very few.
Just my opinion(as Scott says)
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
264 posts
Jun 11, 2005
4:06 AM
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Nick. You said;There are few merchants that can say they made everybody they sold to better competitors. The only breeder I know who can say he improved everyone who got birds from him is in my own town, but he sells and/or gives away very, very few.
According to your way of thinking the only ones that would have rollers in the USA would be about 1/100%.
If it wasn,t for fanciers selling their extra birds who would be able to even enjoy the roller.
As for making everyone better competitors you must live in a very small world.No one can make everyone better.Not even your friend unless it was only a very,very few. David
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
265 posts
Jun 11, 2005
4:17 AM
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Ken.You said;To be honest with you here George, NO!! I don't think so. What some of the best fliers are doing and doing a good job of it. Is flying the big flys and then selling off the kits after the big fly to make room for next years crop..
So are they selling off their Hybrid Vigor Kits?This is what I have been finding out has been going on(not everyone) for as long as there has been competition.
Now you understand where I am coming from.Why wouldn,t someone keep this kit and fly it in comp the next year.So many unanswered questions.
I am not blessed to have other flyers close to me to be able to sit down and talk with.The only source of info is the innernet.I know you think I am crazy but I am really just borderline.LOL. David
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Alohazona
11 posts
Jun 11, 2005
3:19 PM
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Aloha all,first off I'd like to say,the BEST rollers in my loft,were given to me as gifts,just MY experience.Having said that,the best Racing homers in my race loft Ipaid top dollar,in racing homers,taking 2 great individual birds and crossing them[hybrid vigor is what you're looking for]is what gives you you're higher percentage of CHAMPS.Individual performance records are very closely documented are a matter of record for others to see,because basicly they are going from point A to point B,and are tracked with a clocking system.
In rollers,whether it is a backyard or competition flyer,go to their homes,pick from the air,the best rolling bird,style,velocity,and frequency,rolling from thefront and center of the kit should have a highervalue than another,and being a cock having a higher value than another,chose the best rolling hen,the flyer/breeder will consider letting go of,strive for the cock,they are harder to find.When they land,study what those birds look like and how they conduct themselves,are the comming down with the group?do they have their own agenda for trapping?The breeder/flyer should have at LEAST 4 or 5 years working that family of bird,tempered with inbreeding and linebreeding techniques.Provided you like what you see and what you can afford aquire the birds for stock.Fly the birds young to 20 to 25 minute time frame ,there will be exceptions due to weather,but keep the exceptions few and keep in close contact with the breeder/flyer.
The reason I went through the long explanation is,there is a lot of risk in time and money,when you buy rollers sight unseen,or from this loft or that loft,whether top competitor or backyard guys,keep picking birds from the air over time,get rid of the crappy ones and your enjoyment will grow,but it all starts with what you choose for the breeding pen,talk and well worded advertisement will always be there,whether top competitor or backyard fancier,I know I've been down that road,beleive half of what you see and none of what you hear.Just an opinion of mine,ALOHA,Todd
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nicksiders
133 posts
Jun 11, 2005
11:26 PM
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Well, there are about 350,000,000 people in the U.S. so I would say there are about 35,000 roller breeders (LOL). I just don't feel you can do both well.....you know, on the championship level.
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motherlodelofts
66 posts
Jun 12, 2005
2:56 PM
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Dave what is this hybred vigor kick that you are on ?????????? , I have one bird in my team that is about 6 years that I would consider a true hybred vigor cross between two tight families , I havn't crossed families for hybred vigor in about 4 years , I know that Kenny has a few crossed with Neible birds in his team.
Do those that sell win ? not the one's that sell constantly(feather merchants) but nor do most of them compete, it is bad for sales, so it is really a baseless question.
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jun 12, 2005 3:00 PM
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Alan Bliven
177 posts
Jun 12, 2005
3:05 PM
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I've always been curious how a person can get good rollers if he don't buy them? And how can one buy them if someone don't sell them? Are they always given away? No one has ever offered me any good quaility rollers for free... for that matter no one has ever offered me ANY Rollers for free, even culls. If I didn't buy them from someone who sells them I wouldn't have any Rollers at all! I'd still be waiting. So, I just don't understand.
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Alan
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rollerpigeon1963
9 posts
Jun 12, 2005
8:30 PM
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Alan,
I have a story for you that happen to me first hand. And I will use your post as a guideline. I'm not making fun of it but just using it. You were talking about getting good birds either by selling them or giving them to you. This is my view about this. If you were to come by and visit and talk pigeons and get to know me than you might be offered some. But there is a problem with that. This computer don't know distances. And we can only talk face to computer screen. Now you will meet some great guys in here that could help you out down the road. But they have to know you first. What kind of guy you are? are you a competitor or just a keeper? Are you a color breeder? this is a serious issue with a lot of guys, one way or another. Then once they give you the birds are they going to get some feedback from you either good or bad?
Here is where I wanted to tell you my story! I meet a guy in the NBRC chatroom. He came in many nights and talked rollers for hours on end. But he too was just getting started and didn't have no one to help him. So I told him if he pay the shipping I would send him a bunch of breeders so he would have a good start. He told me that he didn't have any extra money to send for shipping so I sent him the birds for nothing just to get him started. I asked him what ever he done please let me know how they were doing? Let me know which ones were producing what. So a year passed and no word from him. I tried calling him and his number was disconnected. So I lost a bunch of birds that I really wanted to know what they could do. Man talking about making your blood pressure boil. So I kind of forgot about it and moved on with the birds. Then all of a sudden someone calls me out of the blue one night. He said he was Venny and he lived in New York area. And he was wanting some birds really bad. I told him I had some birds that I was working with. That I didn't have a clue what they could do. He said could you seel me some. I said venny I really don't like selling birds. And he kept on asking and asking. So I told him I would send him a dozen or so birds that I was working with that were out of my Hardesty and Monson cross. But I said Venny I have to know what these birds are doing. It is very important that you let me know and tell me there progress. Well to make a long story short! he never called me back! So I called him after I received a email from someone in Pa. asking about the performance of a certain bird of mine. He told me he got it from a man in upstate N.Y and he got them from a man on stanton island, who got them from me. I felt stupid I didn't have a clue what the bird could do and I told him they were something I was working with. He did tell me they were 30' nice fast and frequent birds. But wanted to know some history on them and their nest mates. So from that point on I said I wont just give out birds any more!!! I have paided hundreds of dollars for my fowl and then give them away for someone who you think would let you know how they are doing. That is why some people just won't let many birds go. Like I said this is just my opinion and my way of doing things. But I thought some of you would like to know. Oh by the way Venny did say he did win a fly with the birds but he said he still had them. I asked him about a certain bird and he said he lost it. So now I don't have my Hardesty line any more and working on some new blood. These guys could have helped me out when I lost the 112 birds from the loft. And Kenny and Scott leave the 10 grand story alone LOL I'm still sick LOL LOL
Thanks Brian
I've always been curious how a person can get good rollers if he don't buy them? And how can one buy them if someone don't sell them? Are they always given away? No one has ever offered me any good quaility rollers for free... for that matter no one has ever offered me ANY Rollers for free, even culls. If I didn't buy them from someone who sells them I wouldn't have any Rollers at all! I'd still be waiting. So, I just don't understand.
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Alan
Last Edited by rollerpigeon1963 on Jun 12, 2005 8:38 PM
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rollerpigeon1963
10 posts
Jun 12, 2005
8:49 PM
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Alan and David,
For one you can bid on the birds on the NBRC auction and the W/C auction. This way you can get top rate birds and don't have to be there to pick them up. But it would be nice if you could see what you were buying before hand. You may pay a little more for them because there is others like you. Out there bidding on fresh blood. But I know for a fact that a bunch of roller guys have gotten some very nice birds from the auction. I for one!! These auction have been going on now for about 3 years and this has helped many people get some great blood.
I had asked this one roller guy if he could sell me some birds. Well at the time he had a accident at the home that wouldn't let him sell any at the time. Now this was in 1996. So 4 or 5 years went by and I finally got some good birds, Well worth the wait. Now within that 4 to 5 years of waiting I made some major mistakes that cost me pretty good. Now I have a loft of 19 birds that will do me some good. Thanks to KGB, Scott and Paul.
Thanks Brian
Last Edited by rollerpigeon1963 on Jun 12, 2005 8:51 PM
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fhtfire
149 posts
Jun 12, 2005
9:14 PM
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I would agree with you Brian...that it really makes me mad when I give birds away and I don't get any feedback about the offspring. But I have given birds away and have kept in touch with those fanciers. Don(rotti)is one of the good ones. I gave him a bunch of squeekers to fly out and breed. Every now and then I get an e-mail from him telling me how they are doing. Guess what..that made me feel good. So I did not hesitate to get him a couple of birds that I had left from my world cup team that were of my stock. I told him what to breed to what and he said that he was going to keep me updated on how the offspring produce...since I have the cock and hen to those birds in my loft. I do not think newbies sometimes realize that it is a big help to us to let us know how the birds are doing.
I myself make sure that I give Scott a call to let him know what his birds are doing in my loft..as well as Chuck Roe and Mort Emami. Plus...you get to talk pigeons with some good people.
I for sure feel your pain when it comes to people getting birds...then never talking to you again. Anyway...just my thoughts!LOL
I will use Tony as an example of selling birds and maintaining good stock. I got two pair of young Ruby Rollers from Tony last year. SO far I am very happy with the birds. They are producing some pretty good spinners. So, it can be done. I have met Tony in person...and he is very passionate about his stock and is very picky when it comes to the quality of his birds. So I feel it can be done (selling and Flying)...but it take a special person to do it!
rock and ROLL
Paul Fulleron
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Mount Airy Lofts
1 post
Jun 12, 2005
9:31 PM
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There is NO way some one can compete and sell birds year round!!
The key is to fly OLD birds! This is only done by adding your best bird to one kit year after year until you make up 15-20 good ones. It may take up to 6 years to even get to this level. This is from breeding every year.
Speaking from what I have seen, it is not possible unless you breed All Champions in every nest.
Let us not even talk about Selling birds here. It's not even possible to give birds away year round to help new guys and compete.
Sell or Give away, I would so NO. Of course if you are talking about a late round, then it is a different story... but we are talking about Year Round here.
Just giving what I see...
Thor
P.S. The best and most reliable kits I have seen are teams made up from 2 years-10 years old kit birds.
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fhtfire
152 posts
Jun 12, 2005
10:16 PM
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Thor,
With all due respect. I have to disagree. You are telling me that if you breed 100 squeekers every year you can't put a nice kit together and sell birds too. I am not talking about someone just starting out. I am talking about the fanciers that have had there strain for 10 plus years and know the birds like the back of there hand. These are the fanciers that can see a bird in the nest and just be able to tell that it will be good..because they know there stock. This is like anything..not just pigeons. I raised Champion dairy goats for years...and still sold stock and still remained at the top for years...and goats don't reproduce like flies either.
I also said that it takes a special person to do it. I myself could not..but maybe the Campbell, Mee, Oulette..ect could. Because they have proven stock and they for sure could breed enough for themselves and still sell squeekers. I am just confused...of course you are not selling birds that you are claiming to be champions..just squeekers. You buy a kit of squeekers from a top notch flier that has a proven strain..you are bound to get some good birds in the bunch. When you buy squeekers you are rolling the dice anyway...no matter who you buy from.
Think about it...once you have been breeding for a good number of years...you have an established old bird kit...a hold over kit.....and a young bird kit or two...each year you are only adding a few here and there to your kits..due to losses...stiffs..or whatever....you could still sell quite a few young and not lose your competive edge...the breeders are still the same. You are still flying out a portion of your birds and keeping them for stock. It is all about getting a system going and streamlining. But again you have to be a special person that still puts quality #1. I don't know..it just seems to me that it can be done if someone put there heart and soul into it. I think it would be different if you are selling birds and not keeping any for yourself to fly out to make sure you are still on track, or just pumping birds that are not your strain and claiming that they are...you know as well as I know..if you are new....and if you bought a kit of squeekers from somebody and if I only got two champions out of 20 squeekers..I would be totally happy..because those two champions could start your own strain. I am not saying it would be easy..but it could be done. I myself have given some damn good birds away just to make perch space for my new up and coming spinners...How many of us cut off breeding...just because our kit boxes are full...well you could still keep your pairs together and sell to some new guys to get them started if they do not have the luxury of knowing any good fanciers. It is all about breeding for your self first and once you have your quota for the year...and you want to sell...well breed some more round and foster too....nothing wrong with that..the number and % are still there weather they are for you or for someone else.
rock and ROLL
Paul Fullerton
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Alan Bliven
179 posts
Jun 12, 2005
10:39 PM
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Brian,
I thank God for people that will sell me birds... I can't drive 500 miles just to have to apply, beg and "brown nose" in person to for someone to give me some birds.
If I need rollers now, you'd suggest I bypass anyone that is selling them and bid on the auction and wait till Sept to get some good birds? There's also no guarantee I'll win the auction and then I'd have to pay triple what others are selling them for.
What do you think of Danny Horner and Mort Emani? Feather Merchants with no possibility of getting good birds? What about our host Tony? I believe he has good birds for sale.
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Alan
Last Edited by Alan Bliven on Jun 12, 2005 10:42 PM
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rollerpigeon1963
11 posts
Jun 13, 2005
6:42 AM
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Alan,
You asked how you could get some good birds if no one was offering them. I was only suggesting an idea. I didn't know what you really meant by your post. But I have a better idea what you meant. I was just trying to help you out.
Now I would never tell you never to by from someone unless I had dealings with them myself. But from the men you mentioned I only have heard good things about. I never seen there birds. But there is a lot of people out there that has said some good things about there birds. For one Paul Fullerton had mentioned Tony's birds and how he liked them. I have talked to a lot of people who has said some very good things about Danny.
Sorry for taking your post out of context but only offering some help.
Brian Middaugh
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Alan Bliven
180 posts
Jun 13, 2005
7:43 AM
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I appreciate that but I'm not looking for help to find good birds... I'm looking for some balance with this topic. It looks to me like the truth is right in the middle.
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Alan
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Ballrollers
24 posts
Jun 13, 2005
1:59 PM
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I have gone the route of buying birds from an unknown breeder, only to be very dissappointed. I think the key to getting reputable and quality birds given to you is to demonstrate that you are serious about raising them. After I joined a local fly club, the NBRC, and started attending local, national, and WC flys, and meeting guys, I have found most everyone willing to share excellent birds with me. When they didn't know me from Adam, why should they share with me? Like these guys have said, I might have dissapeared and sold the birds to other guys. I might also add that I have offered to pay for every bird given to me and the gentlemen wouldn't hear of it. I just saw my first solid, quality 100 ft. spinner and I was so excited, the breeder handed it to me when it trapped in to the kit box! I have also bid on and bought auctioned birds (proven breeders)at local flys which also demonstrates to the experienced men that I am serious about the sport. I think that is the key. In the sport, Cliff
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motherlodelofts
70 posts
Jun 13, 2005
3:10 PM
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Bingo Cliff !!!!!!!!!
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Alan Bliven
181 posts
Jun 13, 2005
3:26 PM
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I'm sorry, I don't buy it, pardon the pun :)
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Alan
Last Edited by Alan Bliven on Jun 13, 2005 3:29 PM
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DHenderson
1 post
Jun 13, 2005
8:21 PM
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Hello all,
this is a topic that is close to home so to speak.
I do sell a few birds each year but not as many as some might think.
I like to breed about 100 each year from my 10-11 pair.
I keep about 60-65 of these and sell about 20-24 young a year of them and also donate another 10 to various things, WC auction, NBRC auction and our local club raffle, so this makes up the numbers. If I get much below 60 young it's very hard to keep a good competitive team together as I try to keep about 10-15 hold overs each year which some of them are good spinner and many are not fully developed. Seems the best ones fall prey a lot to the falcons. I do also try to stock at least 1 key yearling each year.
However with the horrible predator problems up here it's runs me in the red just about every year. If I simply kept the 100 for myself I would probably be ok in terms of retaining a better group of hold overs and a better kit year round but that's not my current #1 angle on the whole situation.
I have a very active family life, both kids are in sports all year long and they are demanding of my time to spend with them, all reasonable demands if you ask me.
As my wife made me think several years back you can never get back the time you loose from your family whether it be in family related stuff or kids sports. Kids are hear only a short time and gone or they get to an age where they don't want to hang out anymore? either way the rollers will be with me the rest of my life and by me selling off 20-25 of my young birds each year to assist a few new guys, or guy wanting to get some better birds then this is really no big deal to me, I'm not all about winning but I must admit it's feels pretty good when you do!
The advantage to selling a few to select guys is that you get more friends in the sport that you would of never normally met had they not pursued birds from you, probably for the long term. You also get an automatic out cross loft of totally related birds should you ever feel the desire to get some back. It's like the best insurance there is on the system, if anything should ever happen to what I have now it would be devasting but I feel confident I could get ahold of a few good birds to rebuild with very little effort just based on the base of friends I have made in this hobby.
I do also give select birds to local here and other friends but most of these are older birds.
I would say however if you don't have a big enough base of breeders and kits built up and also have a bad to severe predator problem it will be very difficult to stay competitive. So I would say that based on what I do here it is pretty hard to keep a great team together but if I kept a full 4th team around with the current situatuion I think I could do it better based on my predator problems.
This year I am planning to lock down ALL my kits for a solid 3 months and save as many as I can. I find that many of my May or june hatch birds are in good form come spring and due to this lock down they are forced to develop slower then the earlier birds and over all the last couple of rounds is good over all but in the past I have pissed more of them away flying them thru the winter then I can shake a stick at, but this year I will not do this and hope it will make a big difference come WC time in 2006.
So I would say that unless you have more time on your hands then I do and a better work schedule it would be pretty darn hard to do both at a larger scale then I do. I can see some retired guys who can keep 5-6 of their own teams and breed from 15-20 pairs doing it but on the scale that most do it, NO it is pretty impossible.
The key to this whole equation is keeping the selling down to a minimum and still keeping the same birds you would normally keep for yourself. Like Paul said if you keep 5 rounds for youself and sell your last 2 rounds you could easily do it.
Dave
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motherlodelofts
73 posts
Jun 13, 2005
8:31 PM
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Dave I think the key is not loosing them , my losses are fairly light here but I still lock down the A team.
I keep a fairly small operation here, to sell birds I would have to breed more birds, to breed more birds I would have to breed out of birds that I normally wouldn't. Either that or cut my throat by selling what I need for myself.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jun 13, 2005 8:32 PM
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DHenderson
3 posts
Jun 13, 2005
9:11 PM
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Scott,
you are right on with that statment, the key is keeping more of them each year, this will do more then you can imagine in helping you keep the best kit you can for the competitions, and that has a direct relationship on managment.
So if you want to do better fly them smarter and try to keep ground to air artillery more readily handy (LOL) or at least find a system that will afford you surviving more of what you keep for yourself, this is of course refraining from flying during the predators season altogether. Loosing 1 here and 1 there will soon catch up to you in your worst nightmare.
Dave
Last Edited by DHenderson on Jun 13, 2005 9:17 PM
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Mount Airy Lofts
3 posts
Jun 13, 2005
10:58 PM
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Paul F.,
There is nothing wrong with disagreeing in this hobby. We all see things differently and that keeps things interesting.
I am only speaking from what I have observed from guys I know. Out of 4 Hard Core Competition fliers (guys who hardly ever miss a Big Fly or Local Fly), two of them (one is a veteran flier of 30 years and the other is a competition flier of 10 years) sell birds almost all year long.... Another one (veteran competition flier of 30 years) gives his best flown out birds to new guys looking to start out or whole rounds... and the last one (veteran competition flier of 30 years) can't afford to let any go. All these 4 gentlemen are as hard core competition fliers as can be.
The two guys who sell birds have pretty much ruin their program. Why? From selling so many birds, they have left themself in the dark for future Key Breeders. I have seen them go down hill in a matter of just 3 years I have known them. Both guys are now looking to see what they should do to get the performance back in their family. Reverting back to their original stock pairs. Kind of ironic tho because they are still selling birds.
The fellow that helps guys out every year just stated to me that he no longer can do it and stay competitive. As of this year, he will only be loaning his birds out-if at all. He hopes to get back to where he was with the performance.
The last guy that can't afford to let any birds go has done extremely well every year and is actually improving yearly. Placing high in most National or W/C flys or local if not winning. Now, don't get me wrong that he never help guys out... because he does. I just took home half of his Old bird team last year. It is only rare that he'll have enough birds to let birds go to new guys (free of charge to if I might add). He always flys old birds for his competition kit and is one of those guys that we set ourselves to beat.
Like I mentioned, I only can say what I have observed. From my observation, it is a up hill battle being Competitive if you loose birds on a moment's notices-selling or giving away for free. In doing so, your program will truly suffer in the future when you need those key birds.
It seems possible if you just think about it but when you really do it and from what I have observe, it is impossible. Not only does it hurt you from flying quality kits, it hurts your future program.
Than again, it's just my opinion,
Thor
Last Edited by Mount Airy Lofts on Jun 13, 2005 11:02 PM
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Slobberknocker
2 posts
Jun 14, 2005
7:23 AM
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Hey Guys,
Great posts from everyone here. This thread has proven that you can show both sides of a topic and see very good, valid points to each.
I absolutely understand Scott and Thor's points. Those serious about competition will not likely be trying to sell birds as it can take away from their goal. Especially those who breed from small, tight-knit families like Scott. I am trying to get to that point myself of having a small, tight-knit family.
I am currently only breeding from 6 pairs of birds. All the same family, but I am flying out everything I raise. I do make birds available from my own stock if I have one that is either too young or too old to add to a kit or possibly an odd cock or hen that I have not use for. I am hoping to increase the number of breeders I have to 10 pairs by next year, but what happens this year will determine that for me.
I know that some have labeled me a "feather merchant" and that is OK. I admit that I do sell off my extra birds rather than kill them. I just don't have the heart to do that. Also, I have a deal with a lot of local guys with all kinds of breeds that I will sell them for the guys since they do not have a computer or do not want the hassle of shipping.
I also think that "feather merchants" are very important to the hobby if they are honest and know what they are doing. The good, honest FM's spread birds out to others who may not otherwise have access to or cannot afford birds of that breed and/or quality. This person may then turn around and develop an interest in the breed and become an asset to that breed. To give an example of the honest FM, here is what I think. An honest, upstanding FM will describe Rollers this way: "Family unknown, performance unknown" and price them accordingly. A dishonest FM will do this: "Top quality WC spinners from Rick Mee's (just an example) loft. Guaranteed 30 foot spinners" and will price them at just below top dollar so the buyer thinks he is getting a helluva deal.
I beleive (and this applies to Rollers Alan, listen up!!) that in order to ensure the survival of the breed and the hobby (sport), those who are able MUST make birds available to others. Dave made an excellent point there.
That said, I have told people (even posted this on my own forum) that new guys coming into the breed (any breed for that matter) MUST ask question. And ask the tough questions. True feather merchants will not be able to answer these questions and will fold like a cheap accordion. True breeders will be able to answer the tough questions without hesitation and, in some cases, even answer the questions before they are asked. From there, the new guy can make his own decisions.
I agree that there are a lot of people out there just trying to make a buck by selling junk to the unsuspecting newcomer. However, this forum (if kept civil) can save the new guy a lot of time and money.
I cannot stress enough to the new guy to ASK QUESTIONS before plunking down one recessive red cent (LOL)!!
Thank you Tony for opening this forum back up.
Bob McGuan
www.slobberknockerlofts.com
Last Edited by Slobberknocker on Jun 14, 2005 3:12 PM
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fhtfire
153 posts
Jun 14, 2005
1:35 PM
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Thor,
First let me tell you a little about me. You will never ever have to worry about offending me if there is a difference of opinion. Everyone is free to there own opinion. I think that there are good points on both sides of the spectrum. I never said that it would be easy to do...I just think that it would be a lot of time and work....but could be done. I also think that you are right....that it can go down hill fast if you do not watch your Ps and Qs. Hey...no worries brother...just my thoughts..LOL! Anyway...rock and ROLL
Paul
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Velo99
14 posts
Jun 14, 2005
6:43 PM
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I was recruited from a circle of friend who I didn`t even know flew. I was given 6 birds and a kitbox, good deal huh?NOT... over the last year I have learned to both love and hate my birds. These neurotic denizens of the sky can simply drive one batty. I finally got the set up I will work with. An A box, a y/b box, and a squeaker box.I have a 60 bird capacity period. I do have a breeder loft with six pairs. I will breed roughly 40-50 squeaks this season. After the season next year I will defintely be looking to shed some birds because I don`t have the room.
I wil probably give them away. Some to the guys I got birds from to start with. One gave me a pair of breeders with the condition I give him a pair of squeaks next year. He is moving in a different direction but still likes the line of birds. It is all about giving at my stage.
yits/mtc
v99
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Mount Airy Lofts
4 posts
Jun 14, 2005
11:00 PM
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There is nothing wrong with selling birds nor is there any thing wrong with giving birds free of charge. You either do it or don't. This is a hobby first and fore most for me. Heck, I'd rather take my nephew out fishing then go see a fly... so kill me. Sometimes, feather merchants can be devilish creatures... sometimes not. All you can do is ask questions and trust that the fellow is telling you the truth.
Anywho, back to the question... let's just say that if you lose a bird every time you fly your birds to a sky shark (falcon or cooper or owl or etc.), do you think you will have a chance in the competitions. If the answer is yes, please come fly where I use to (no longer flying there). I lost atleast a bird on every release to those darn sky sharks. Sometimes whole kits due to over fly caused by them. Didn't matter how long they were lock down for. I think I only had 2 months in a year that I could fly safely.
What does this have to do with the question... think about it. Isn't having birds for sell year round the same as losing tens of birds to a sky shark. Same goes with giving your best birds away. There is no difference in my mind. Ask someone who loses atleast a bird on every release and see what he has to say about his stocking program. There is none because you are limited to what you can stock.
It just might be acouple of us that sees this but I would still have to say - NO WAY! Sorry Paul F... (grin)
Good luck telling guys,
Thor
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
274 posts
Jun 15, 2005
3:35 AM
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Thor.I lose an average of 60 to 70 a year to Hawks.This year seems like I may be a little under that.Depends on how bad the Fall is.
This amount is about average to what a lot of Competition flyers raise each year.Then again they only raise out of 10 or 12 pair.
I knew after the first year back into rollers I had to raise more young to compensate for my losses.
I also believe that any Hobby should support its self.So I try to raise a few extra rounds to sell to pay for the feed.
Then I have some from my kits that I eventually don,t need before the next breeding season.Good birds but just don,t fit into my plans.This covers the entire year.
Year round selling? If someone is selling Daily/weekly year round then I would say No.David
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rotti
2 posts
Jun 15, 2005
4:17 AM
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Hey all. Figured I better put in my two cents worth. If you have room for an a-team,a b-team and a squeaker box. That's at most sixty three birds? And you breed one hundred? What do you do with the extra? Cull some too early? Just to make space for new ones? And then you ask why your program is declining? This makes no sense. Pigeons breed like rabbits. So why can't you sell off birds from the same pairs you are flying out of? No guaranties. Just the truth. These are from my proven breeders fly them out and see. And this is a detrement to your breeding program because? Selling and competeing can be done. That's how it's done in every other type of animal performance. Race horses may make money winning races but the real money is in breed fees. No guarantee just the shot at a champion. So why are rollers different? We talk about hundreds of dollars for unproven birds and they talk about millions. The dollar amount doesn't matter but the possible outcome does. If you can sell birds to help pay for your enjoyment, great. Just be honest about what you are selling. And if you are new to the sport. Be honest with yourself about what you are buying. Don't expect to buy a world cup winning kit. But do expect to buy the best possible stock you can. And Alan as far as never being given a bird? You need to meet some new roller men. I have about twenty rollers that I paid nothing for. Two were given to me right out of the kit box a half hour after I met the man. The others were shipped to me because Paul was willing to give me a little help. Neither man new me from Adam but after talking to me and finding out I was serious they were more than willing to help me out. I have a hard time believing someone can't find good birds to start out with. Even without feather merchants good birds are available. You just have to be willing to put in the effort to obtain them. And it doesn't include any butt-kissing. Simple honesty and sincerity have worked pretty well for me. Don
Last Edited by rotti on Jun 15, 2005 4:19 AM
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motherlodelofts
74 posts
Jun 15, 2005
6:02 AM
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Dave if I was getting hit like that I would no doubt lock down, I think that you are inviting attacts by feeding them so heavily, your backyard becomes nothing but a bird feeder for them.
Also all it is doing is screwing up the ones that do survive as all they will do is fly scared and in hawk defence mode, which will alter everything about them long after the hawks are gone I beleive.
There is not one single positive by flying under such conditions that I can think of.
just my opinion
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jun 15, 2005 6:17 AM
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birdman
23 posts
Jun 15, 2005
6:48 AM
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George,
There are a couple of big name flyers in our area that have been World Cup contenders more than once, and these guys sell a ton of birds. Others that fly these family of birds have been World Cup contenders as well. Keep in mind that both of these guys are retired and have the time and space to keep up to 10 kits.
So to answer your question, yes it it possible for some, but for the majority I would say no.
Russ
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
276 posts
Jun 15, 2005
11:44 AM
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Scott.Why have rollers if you keep them locked down all the time? It is something I have to live with and take what I can get from the hobby.You are right about the defense mode.I have seen it happen more than once.
But this year it seems like they didn,t have as good a hatch as before.Maybe I am gaining ground in my new relocating program.LOL. David
P.S. This fall I am going to lockdown my best kit when the main migration hits.
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Mount Airy Lofts
5 posts
Jun 15, 2005
9:58 PM
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Russ,
Wow.. up to ten kits!! Now that is impressive. No kidding, that would be great to see in person.
I don't care for that many kits but if you were to be able to breed that many, I can see how one could sell birds all year long and probably still stay on the top.
Here is a question for all... are we talking about the same thing here? I mean breeding out of the best only and selling only from these pairs or only the best flown out birds in the kits.
Not culls or out of pairs that aren't worth much but just there to breed numbers.
Most of the top guys around here aim for breeding 30-50 young birds a year. They are working with anywhere from 6-10 pairs.
I only know of one guy who flys good birds and also have about 20 plus breeders (he breeds about 200 plus birds a year). He has birds for sell all the time.
Are we talking about selling junk birds (culls) here?
Thor
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
280 posts
Jun 16, 2005
3:30 AM
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Thor.I never sell cull or junk birds.I won,t even send them to the local auction to be sold for shooters.I don,t want anyone getting any junk rollers with my name or numbers on and thinking they were getting something that was good from an auction just because it was banded.Back in the 50s & 60s we used to catch barnies to sell for shooters.Sometimes we would catch rollers & tumblers that had strayed with bands on them.I would say that 99% of these were junk.We would keep them and fly them and I remember how we talked about what junk some of the fellows were raising.LOL.That and by the time you spend taking them to auction and paying them to sell them it just isn,t worth the trouble.Heck the band is worth 40 cents to me.And I like to keep a kit for Hawk Bait.David
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motherlodelofts
76 posts
Jun 16, 2005
10:25 AM
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Dave it isn't about locking down "all" the time, just during the hawk prime times.
Scott
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motherlodelofts
77 posts
Jun 16, 2005
5:02 PM
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Russ I'm assuming you are talking about the guys in S Calif. that breed hot, no doubt they sell some birds down that way.
But nor do "they" even stay competitive when they are in the sale mode, but generally they can bounce back quick due to the come in early hot birds.
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birdman
24 posts
Jun 16, 2005
6:04 PM
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Scott, I would say that's a pretty fair assessment. And Yes, the birds that I'm referring to are on the hot side for the most part but there are also some very, very good spinners in the mix.
Russ
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motherlodelofts
78 posts
Jun 17, 2005
6:26 AM
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Russ no doubt there's some good one's , I've stood in their backyards. But how many of the good one's stay good ?
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jun 17, 2005 6:27 AM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
284 posts
Jun 17, 2005
8:45 AM
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Scott.Now you are asking the same question I have been trying to get an answer to.LOL. David
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