rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
312 posts
Jun 21, 2005
6:24 AM
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Experienced Judges: Here are some questions about how to properly approach the job of judging a kit of rollers:
* How should a new flyer go about the process of learning
to judge a kit of rollers?
* What set of flying rules should be used?
* What are common errors or misjudgments that are prone to
be made? (judging quality-depth-scorable turn, etc)
* How will he know when he is doing a good job?
* What hints or tips can you offer to improve abilities and
reliability in judging a kit of rollers?
* How should a flyer unhappy with your score be handled?
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Last Edited by rollerpigeon on Jun 21, 2005 6:27 AM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
26 posts
Jun 21, 2005
7:23 AM
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* How should a new flyer go about the process of learning
to judge a kit of rollers?
Be a scribe for as many judges as you possibly can. Attend every fly and be the judge's shadow. Ask questions and listen.
* What set of flying rules should be used?
Which ever the club or event details. I prefer the old NBRC rules myself. The new passed rules are going to burn out a lot of judges.
* What are common errors or misjudgments that are prone to
be made? (judging quality-depth-scorable turn, etc)
We are human, thus prone to more errors than our egos will likely ever admit. I believe the biggest misjudgement that a judge makes is waterfall scoring. Next would be roll quality and last would be depth.
* How will he know when he is doing a good job?
LOL, he is the judge, therefore he is the enemy of all but one, the winner..LOL. If the judge comes away from a fly with the feeling he called it right and is satisfied with his decisions, he did a good job and there is not a soul out there that can tell him any different.
* What hints or tips can you offer to improve abilities and
reliability in judging a kit of rollers?
Be consistent. Develop a standard for yourself which contains an idea of what you visually know is unacceptable and what is. Do not get caught up in the Good Old Boy buddy scoring system. Score the birds per their merit. The judge is not Santa Claus with a bag full of points to share. Score what you see, not what you don't.
* How should a flyer unhappy with your score be handled?
They shouldn't. It is not the judge's job to play Oprah or babysit egos. If your bird's sucked, then your bird's sucked. Don't blame it on the judge. If confronted, obviously be willing to answer the flyer's question if the conversation is kept civil. If the flyer is so pissed the conversation gets out of hand, tell him he might want to consider a different family of birds, or take up something more consciously soothing like Chess..LOL. Just kidding.
Anyone who judges will piss off 90 percent of the flyers they judge, but usually only for a day. Then the world returns to normal.
Brian.
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
303 posts
Jun 21, 2005
1:06 PM
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Brian. You said;
I prefer the old NBRC rules myself. The new passed rules are going to burn out a lot of judges.
I have been trying to study the new rules against the old rules.What changes have been made that you don,t like over the old ones? What will cause many judges to burn out?
I can,t see anything different except the way they are worded but they look like they mean the same.
I am glad the judge has to learn them.All I have to do is put my birds up.LOL. David
P.S. I am only interested in the 11 bird rules.
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
27 posts
Jun 21, 2005
1:20 PM
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David, my intention was directed towards the 20 bird fly rules. The new 11 bird rules are pretty much the same. With the exception of the 11 bird club fly we had here last weekend, we don't fly the 11 bird comp on the big scale in this area for some reason.
As for the comment on judges burning out, anyone who has been judging for a while has developed a system of acknowledgement and understanding. The new 20 bird rules which was put before the entire NBRC membership that flew in the recent fall flys and only saw a meer 60 returns, is, overall, well written with the exception of a giant black hole lingering in rule #7 I believe it is. I am not going to go into a lengthy discussion on that specific topic other than to say that there will be times when a judge will be put into a very uncomfortable situation where he will be required to make a decision that could have a dramatic impact both pro and con in the final results of that fly. There are a ton of "what ifs" that surround some particular wording that leaves the door open to a massive barrage of interpretation. Some judges, if put in this situation, will possibly find themselves in quite a decisive quandry. Of course, these are clearly just my own personal thoughts on the topic.
Brian.
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motherlodelofts
99 posts
Jun 21, 2005
2:36 PM
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Brian I agree, what a gapping hole that is in rule 7 !!!!!!!!
On the 11 bird , There is a written standard on what should be scored, now they've loosened it up and created a problem for qaulity minded judges.
Thank goodness the 20 bird standard for scorable is still left up to the judge.
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jun 21, 2005 2:37 PM
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motherlodelofts
100 posts
Jun 21, 2005
3:30 PM
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It certainly should Dave , under the new written standard a judge judging qaulity can now be accused of not judging by the rules if he isn't scoreing anything that isn't rolling even though it's garbage.
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viper
1 post
Jun 21, 2005
9:00 PM
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The best way to understand the jugding world is to go to the flys as was already said.Ask questions but I would add in our club we have the judge that we score by then we all get a paper and crayon then we all score and compare.Also a jugde from a different area so you don't gat to comon place.The old boys thats been around and up the creek these are the ones you what to ask the questions of.
just a thought.Blake
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Ballrollers
34 posts
Jun 22, 2005
3:52 PM
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Scott, I can't see it! How do the rules now allow garbage to be scored, or provide for higher scores because of more latitude, or how does it create problems for quality-minded judges?
11 bird standards:
1. The bird must turn over backwards, spinning quickly like a ball.
2. The bird must fall vertically with the appearance of a straight line from start to finish.
3. The bird should finish cleanly and not tail ride or plate roll at the end.
4. Loose, slow, sloppy, and or plate rollers should not be scored.
5. Birds that roll less than 10 ft. should not be scored.
6. The bird must roll from the kit and must return to the kit before it can be scored again. If the bird rolls prior to rejoining the kit it does not score and is considered an outbird until it rejoins the kit.
Integrity-The judge shall not judge anything that does not meet his standard for adequate quality and depth or duration of performance.......
That appears to spell it out pretty clearly in my mind! What else do you need? YITS Cliff
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Jun 22, 2005 3:57 PM
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Slobberknocker
12 posts
Jun 22, 2005
4:05 PM
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Integrity-The judge shall not judge anything that does not meet his standard for adequate quality and depth or duration of performance.......
This could be quite subjective. Each breeder has his or her own standards so scoring could be a challenge.
What say you guys about judges who score lower but the birds truly earned the score they got in comparison with judges who hand out points freely based on what they think is good? How would you know what you have for sure?
Bob
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www.slobberknockerlofts.com
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motherlodelofts
104 posts
Jun 22, 2005
5:43 PM
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Cliff they took out two critical standards, Axel rollers will not be scored , and a bird shall not deviate in the roll, Why were these taken out ???????? deviate in the roll means glitches and bumps such as wing switching,with a WRITTEN standard in place that means such birds should be scored now, at least that is what some will argue. Spend a little time judging and you will see what I mean LOL LOL
Scott
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motherlodelofts
105 posts
Jun 22, 2005
5:54 PM
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Bob the only thing subjective is how far one will slide down the scale on what he will score.
Keep in mind that their is a circle of those that compete, for the most part we know who is who.
Some area's want judges that score high and by judging by a low standard while others(such as this one) look for qaulity minded judges, check out our regional scores in this region, they are low compared to many parts of the country, then check out our finals standings, two 20 bird national wins in 6 years and many in the top ten.
The finals judge normally cleans things up and puts things into a proper perspective.
I think that it is a great system, if you have too cut and dry rules I think that it is to easy for some to point fingers and cry "foul" and then you loose the integrity of the fly.
Rules need to be "guide lines" or it can easily self implode.
It is my opinion that the worst thing for the breed and the sport are loose judges !!!!!!!!
Just my opinion
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jun 22, 2005 5:58 PM
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Slobberknocker
13 posts
Jun 22, 2005
6:19 PM
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Hey Scott,
Thank you for the post. I can see how it could be a dilemma at first but then work itself out in the end.
Bob
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www.slobberknockerlofts.com
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
309 posts
Jun 22, 2005
6:21 PM
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Scott.I am getting confused again.LOL
Are you saying some judges will score according to the new rules and some will still score by the old rules? David
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Velo99
21 posts
Jun 22, 2005
7:43 PM
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A judge told me once, they always go easy in the regionals. They want plenty of finalists.When the championship rolls around the judge will be a lot harder on your birds. Be ready for it. Sounds like a double standard already exists.
If the crem de la crem is in the finals,it seems to me the standard should be a littler higher. We want the best to represent the breed standard. I`ll be happy not to dq this fall.
mtc
v99
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motherlodelofts
107 posts
Jun 22, 2005
9:38 PM
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Why would you judge the finals differently ????
It isn't a popularity contest, the only thing that kind of judging does is make some fliers think they got cheated when a qaulity minded judge rolls through.
Just my opinion
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jun 22, 2005 9:54 PM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
310 posts
Jun 23, 2005
2:22 AM
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Scott.This is the way I feel.Judge everything the same.I don,t want my birds scored if they don,t deserve it.When I look at scores all over the US after the Fall Fly I want to feel like everyone was judged the same.However if axle wings and rollers coming out of the roll headed in a different direction are scoreable under the new rules then I don't want one judge scoring them then have a final judge say he don,t score them because of the quality.Either it is or it isn,t. David
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Ballrollers
36 posts
Jun 23, 2005
7:52 AM
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Scott, I see your point about the wing-switching and axel-rolling. The reason that part of the rule was removed, to the best of my knowledge, was for the very reason you addressed in your response to Bob; the general consensus that if the rules were too cut and dried, that people could point fingers more easily. It seems that you are speaking out of both sides of your mouth. On one hand you are criticising the new rules because they are not tight enough with the restrictions on the roll. Then in your post to Bob, you said, "Rules need to be 'guidelines'....if you have too cut and dried rules, it is too easy for some to point fingers and cry 'foul'. " I believe that is exactly what they were trying to accomplish. I'm not being hyper-critical of you, just trying to understand the point you are making, because we can't have it both ways. You know from my article in the NBRC journal last month that I favor stricter guidelines, personally, that leave less room for differences in personal standards among judges. YITS Cliff
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Jun 23, 2005 8:04 AM
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motherlodelofts
111 posts
Jun 23, 2005
8:33 AM
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Cliff it has nothing to do with talking out of both sides of my mouth, the 11 bird has a "written" standard ,what is,is !!!!!!
Now that standard is watered down plain and simple.
Cliff it was watered down for one reason and one reason only, and that is to make birds score easier and more points !!!!!
The same holds true to the changes of the 20 bird rules, luckily it didn't affect scoreable as far as bird qaulity as it is up to the judge by not having his hands tied,the 20 bird changes only dummyed down kit qaulity.
There are different camps in this country as far as those that want qaulity scored verses those that want mega points, how do you get mega points ????
Some of the scoreing that goes on makes Pensoms writings about the dangers of competition and the breed very valid I'm afraid .
All these changes did was make the Fall fly a 3rd class fly compared to the W/C.
Just my opinion
( and more than a few others)
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jun 23, 2005 8:46 AM
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motherlodelofts
112 posts
Jun 23, 2005
9:03 AM
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P.S.
Cliff the 11 bird fly was setup to score ind. qaulity. That has allways been the battle cry of the few that support it.
And it "was" a very good basic standard and one that many use as a standard for judging the 20 bird, in fact the 11 bird standard was written up by Don Oullete.
Don once told me (Scott you wouldn't beleive how many people don't understand that basic written standard , he said the reason for that is because their birds aren't capable of meeting it, so they don't even know what it is).
Well they will now won't they LOL , it really isn't funny. I'm one that beleives that the standard for qaulity should be met, not "lower" the standard to meet the bottom rung birds.
Cliff, a little trivia here, do you know "why" the 11 bird fly was put into existance in the first place ??
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jun 23, 2005 11:08 AM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
312 posts
Jun 23, 2005
9:05 AM
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Scott.Do you remember a couple years ago I said Competition would destroy the Birmingham Roller? You see the rules changing already.What happens in a few more years when they loosen the rules some more? The W/C will loosen their rules too.I seen it happen to Hunting Dogs.Hard to find a good Beagle that can run a rabbit anymore.Hard to find a good Coon Dog that does the job right.Everything is Competition based.Whatever it takes to get points and keep the money coming in.My opinion of course.LOL. David
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motherlodelofts
113 posts
Jun 23, 2005
9:21 AM
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Dave the W/C won't loosen up, in fact there is allways a push to tighten it up, Keep in mind that every country has a say in it.
Also no matter what happens rule wise a large segrent will allways breed for as high as qaulity as they can acheive, while some just want points.
The bottom line is you allways just put up the best that you can regardless.
just my opinion
Scott
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
313 posts
Jun 23, 2005
9:32 AM
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Scott; "while some just want points"
It don,t take much dirt to muddy the water.
I hope you are right.Time will tell.David
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motherlodelofts
114 posts
Jun 23, 2005
9:56 AM
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Dave the benenifts of competion has allready showed itself.
It is now a roller world of "fly them".
It is larger than anyone could have ever imagined and has brought several countrys under one roof due to the W/C.
If only the pioneers could see us now !!!!!
The fact is you see more good birds than you did even say 7-8 years ago, I think that trend will continue.
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jun 23, 2005 10:01 AM
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Ballrollers
37 posts
Jun 23, 2005
12:35 PM
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Ahhhhhhhhhh. I love a good debate! Guys, the assumption that the rule changes were made to loosen up scoring more points is, I believe, an erroneous one and based on your fears that the competition will deteriorate. It will be interesting to see if the scores go higher this fall. I will bet a case of MGD to all comers that they do not! First, Scott, rule #2, says the bird must fall in a straight line and #4 says the roll can't be sloppy. Wouldn't those eliminate the scoring of wing-switching? It would seem so to me, and I feel certain, to any of the judges, as well. One of the reasons the verbage denoting Axel wing rolling was deleted was that there were no other definitions covering other wing positions, and there was a potential for abuse and complaints. The degree of separation between an axle and a low X is only about 15 degrees. Now who among us can be certain of a 15 degree spread in a bird spinning at 200 ft. in the air? The way it is now written with the new rules, if the judge determines it is scoreable, the bird scores. Do you feel we really need to tell judges that Axel wing rollers are not scoreable to prevent mega-scoring? Those judges that are more generous with points will continue to be so regardless of the rule clarifications and the tight ones will remain tight. The new rules do not lower any standards, condone or encourage axel wing scoring, or address judging any other wing position. The 20 bird fly has even fewer written standards.What we are after is a WORLD WIDE definition of what is a minimal standard for a scoreable performance in rollers. These minor changes in the rules were an attempt to have them make more sense, and reduce the potential for complaints, not make points easier to come by. I am a little curious as to why you express such concern, since you have not flown in the 11 bird fly and have such a low opinion of the 11 bird fly. You wouldn't be criticising the NBRC 11 bird fly to continue to devalue it, in favor of the 20-bird, now would you? LOL Cliff
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Jun 23, 2005 12:41 PM
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motherlodelofts
117 posts
Jun 23, 2005
1:05 PM
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Cliff the fact is I could care less about the 11 bird fly, you know that, I say leave it for the youths LOL.
Cliff I can assure that there are no inside motives here on my part.
Many of us just see what happened here which is in black and white, never mind the people that we know that were involved in it, just like the one you are talking to.
Yes I think that qaulity judges can and will reach into other rules and justify what they will score and won't score , and that in itself creates problems.
What the changes did though was open up a window of "well it isn't in the rule's that they won't be scored" .
Cliff if someone says that it was a change to make it "clearer" they are stroking you, all they did was dummy them down and nothing short of it.
The idea was to appease "some" fliers that complain about not being scored, and to give some points to new fliers that other wise wouldn't meet the standard (like this actually helps them).
Cliff it is hard enough judging as it is, you allways have those that want to snivel about not getting scored due to one reason or another.
Do you know how many time's I've heard "well the rules don't say that they "can't" be scored due to such as such ".
Cliff imagine youself judging in a yard full of people and you are a thousand miles from home and the birds are flipping around and rolling sideways and the bulk of them are oohing and aawing and there isn't even a so so bird in the bunch let alone anything that resembles a break , and you aint scoreing.
I been there more than once , at least the 20 bird leave's it up to "your" standard, and the integrity of the fly isn't lost because you weren't a slut with the points.
What I am getting at here Cliff is they did more damage to the 11 bird than they did the 20 bird, it has nothing to do with with fly I prefere.
Like I said earlier Cliff, get your feet wet judging and you will see what I mean.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jun 23, 2005 1:17 PM
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Ballrollers
38 posts
Jun 23, 2005
1:10 PM
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David, So when did you become such a pessimist? I don't recall ever seeing you cry the "sky is falling" before! Everything is not going to hell in a hand basket. The cup is not half empty, but half full. Both of the competitions have brought together the organization, more flyers than ever, and better quality birds in more lofts than ever before, like Scott said. There is no comparison since I was first in Rollers in the 60s and early 70s. We have come a long way and the sky's the limit! LOL LOL Cliff
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
314 posts
Jun 23, 2005
1:22 PM
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Cliff.I ain't crying. But I can tell you that if one judge scores the rollers according to the rules and another judge comes here and judges the way he thinks it should be NBRC will not get any more of my money.And thats a fact.If the rules can,t be written cut & dried then please tell me why there is loopholes.David
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motherlodelofts
119 posts
Jun 23, 2005
1:33 PM
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Dave there are way way to many variables and situations that arise for all of the rules to be cut and dry.
It is rare that the top kits dont shine above the others anyway unless you have a judge scoreing anything that shakes.
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Ballrollers
39 posts
Jun 23, 2005
2:13 PM
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Scott, A huge chunk of our membership blileves that the 11 bird is the only way to measure individual quality of performance. The vast majority are of the opinion that in a kit of 20 birds, it humanly impossible to view a half or three quarter turn at 2-300ft.and have any idea of evaluating differences in quality, speed or depth. That is where the whining and complaining about inconsistency and "good ole boy" networking comes into play. Even if you are, by some stretch of the imagination, correct and the powers to be were intent on destroying the 11-bird by giving some points to new fliers. So what? It may motivate them a little more to participate.They are not going to be in the running for a win, anyway. And with time, expereience has shown that most flyers see a tightening and elevation of their standards with time, so no harm done. In my own heart, I really do not believe that they were just trying to appease guys with crap that were not scoring any points. I do hear your frustration with judging some of that crap, and I applaud your committment to quality. This is not about compromising you in that committment. And I do hope to get my feet wet judging one day. I am sure that I will recall some of your words then. LOL Cliff
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
315 posts
Jun 23, 2005
2:15 PM
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Scott.I know you can,t cover everything.But how much trouble would it have been to just say "WILL NOT" instead of "SHOULD NOT"? Lets a lot of room to make up your own mind don't it? David
P.S.I guess it wouldn,t make a whole lot of difference since the Final's Judge would be judging everyone that made it that far.
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motherlodelofts
120 posts
Jun 23, 2005
2:36 PM
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Cliff try judging a working 11 bird kit and try to keep track of individuals plus bonus points, it is near impossible and at times I would say that it is impossible under the right kit.
It can be more difficult than the 20 and you can't do it without a clicker !!
Now if you have birds just rolling just here there then it is a differnt story.
For those that don't think that you can't judge qaulity on a 20 bird, well what can I say, just an exscuse for not being able to fly a team of 20 bird would be my guess, it isn't hard to judge a team of 20 bird at all, and the better the kit the easier it is, when it gets difficult is when you are trying to sort the good from the garbage, you do the best that you can just like trying to keep track of a working 11 bird kit.
Cliff go back and look at the 11 bird final winners , most are 20 bird fliers, and the 11 bird is secondary to them , why do I bring this up ? because they just grab the best 11 out of their 20 bird kit.
All of this is pretty much a mute point anyway LOL
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jun 23, 2005 7:35 PM
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motherlodelofts
121 posts
Jun 23, 2005
2:38 PM
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Dave it all works out in the wash, like I said earlier it is rare that the top kits don't shine like a beacon above the rest anyway.
Scott
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
35 posts
Jun 23, 2005
3:33 PM
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It is my opinion that the 11 bird fly is supposed to be TOUGH. The focus is on taking the time to evaluate, to the best of the judges abilities, the quality of the individual rollers in that kit. The standard for acceptable should be high, not just scoring normal rollers with visible performance faults.
Case in point-- When I judged our 11 bird fly this past weekend, each kit had on average about three really good, deep rollers that did most of the scoring. Why? Because these were the stand out birds, the good birds that executed good speed and depth in a straight line with no deviations and clean exits. In a kit of fewer birds and with the presence of mind that each bird is evalutated completely, you can begin to see who the good birds are and which ones don't make the grade. I saw many birds that rolled with a glitch, weren't deep enough or switched wings or you could see the rotations. These are not scorable..period! And some of those were in my own kit! In the 20 bird, they could be seen as scoreable. But in an event which is suppose to award quality rollers, the bar has to be raised, otherwise the fly just becomes a smaller version of the 20 bird fly where every bird that does something marginal is given a point or two and the most frequent kit wins.
I do not agree with a judge feeling as though he has the go-ahead to score anything he likes because we want to bring in more participants. In fact I am adamantly opposed to such a notion. If that is the goal, to make more people feel warm and fuzzy about their birds, then score the 11 like the 20 and be done with it.
Just my thoughts.
Brian.
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Velo99
26 posts
Jun 23, 2005
4:39 PM
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I thought this was supposed to be fun. :(
v99
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
36 posts
Jun 23, 2005
6:02 PM
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V, it's not the judge's job to make the fly "fun" for anyone. His job is to evalute and place a numerical value on individual rollers that meet the requirement of quality in the 11 bird fly. Sure, if a judge senses that the kit he is standing under is full of not-so-good rollers, he can throw in a few points so the guy doesn't blank. Token points. Maybe that would make him feel happy and feel he is having fun.
OR, would it make a person happy if he likes his birds, then suddenly a judge shows up to score his 11 bird kit he entered, to only be handed a nearly blank sheet of paper afterwards because those birds the owner likes do not meet the standards of a quality roller? Is that fun for the flyer? No. Is that fun for the judge? No. Is it reality if the judge used proper evaluation descretion? YES.
No roller is truly perfect. No judge is truly perfect. No flyer is truly perfect. In fact the whole world is not perfect. But there has to be a dedicated focus towards perfection, otherwise we find ourselves running in circles kissing each other's asses and going no where in regards to seeing good rollers and showing others what good rollers are.
Of course we could all just let our birds out and kick back and have fun..lol.
Brian.
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rollerpigeon1963
15 posts
Jun 23, 2005
6:23 PM
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Put it sweet and simple:
11 = Individual Breaks
20 = Team breaks
Now you can say its for the kids and say its easier and so on. But if a good 11 bird kit is scored right it will be a goal that the others have to achieve to beat. Look what Kenny did in the Fall Fly of 04! he set the bar high and it was exciting seeing the scores roll in. I believe the 11 and the 20 is a plus for the hobby. It allows more people to participate in the hobby. And the way I see it the more the merrier!!!!
Brian
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Ballrollers
40 posts
Jun 23, 2005
7:34 PM
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So Scott, if we agree with you that the rules changes screwed up the 11-bird fly to satisfy the cry-babies and to lower the standard in order to give away more points, what would you change in the rules to establish a world wide standard for performing rollers? I'm curious whether we can get a consensus of opinion on this site , for example, that would agree on what the standard should be. If we named you our delegate to re-write the rules and the whole world was required to abide by them....what would they say?? Go ahead, take a stab at it and list them...for the 11-bird and for the 20-bird...or maybe you would have them be the same. Then let's get the opinion of others on the site. Let's see what happens. YITS Cliff
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motherlodelofts
124 posts
Jun 23, 2005
7:46 PM
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Cliff not saying that it screwed it up, it only made it harder on qaulity judges
Cliff the old 11 bird standard would have been a good start and it was written by a 20 bird flier,around here that standard is the base we use anyway for the 20 bird, I might add that if the revolutions can be counted with the naked eye than it isn't scoreable either and we try to choose our judges that judge by such a standard.
Sure we don't end up with the mega scores in the pre-lems due to it like some regions.
But it isn't about points, it is about the best kit winning,not how active they are.
Trust me You don't want me making the rules for the same reason you wouldn't want me being president, Afganastan and Iraq would be a wasteland and would have been turned to glass a long time ago LOL
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jun 23, 2005 9:49 PM
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motherlodelofts
125 posts
Jun 23, 2005
8:04 PM
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Ciff there are "NO" good ol boys running or judging anything, that excuse is just "that" an excuse.
The 11 bird fly was put in place for one reason and one reason only and that was to draw in a particular segment of the country that use the "good ol boy judging" as an excuse and complaining about the 20 bird and how they get cheated.
So the NBRC tried to appease them by coming up with the eleven bird fly, it didn't work because they still would'nt fly it, it is easier for them to just talk trash about competition and the flys that actually mean something that stretch out of their own sandboxes.
Luckily some are starting to break the mold back there now and want to play in the big sandbox with the rest of us.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jun 23, 2005 10:03 PM
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rollerpigeon1963
16 posts
Jun 23, 2005
8:58 PM
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BULL CRAP!!!!!
11 bird fly for the Cry-babies come on Scott. I believe the 11 bird flies are as important as the 20 bird kits. For one they get more people involved into the hobby! for another it makes a fellowship going to others and seeing there set-up. gets more people to join the NBRC! It opens new doors that the other flys don't offer. It's a stepping stone for some to get there feet wet. I can go on and on, but are we looking at the big picture here!!!!!! Do you want to limit only guys that fly in 20 bird kits allow to fly? Do you want to lower the membership to the NBRC by cutting out the 11 bird kits? The last time I read the front of the NBRC it Says "Promoting the Birmingham Roller Pigeon and the Fellowship amoung its Fanciers" Promoting the Birmingham roller, I don't see kits in that phrase!! And the fellowship amoung it fanciers, don't see where it says 20 bird kit fliers. The NBRC offers something different than the W/C. Not saying there is something wrong with the W/C because there isn't. But sets aside the NBRC flies and the W/C. A few rules and less area. So the NBRC flies are limited for area. So use the area we have and make the most of it. I haven't flown in a 11 bird kit in 8 years. I have flown in 3-20 bird kits. But I don't look down on others because they choose too. I didn't think you did either.
Brian
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motherlodelofts
126 posts
Jun 23, 2005
9:46 PM
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Hey buddy you getting a little worked up LOL now take a deep breath and count to ten with me.
Brian the fact is if I didn't have enough birds to fly the 20 bird I would fly the eleven, a fly is a fly.
Brian what I wrote is what instigated the 11 bird fly,
Yea I talk crap about the 11 bird but I would still fly it myself if I had the oppertunity, Why ? because I just love to put them up.
Where I was going with this Brian was to think that only qaulity come's from from the 11 bird kits and not the 20 bird kits is a mistake.
I think that we have ventured off topic here a tad.
Scott
PS yea I still love ya Buddy
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jun 23, 2005 10:00 PM
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rollerpigeon1963
17 posts
Jun 23, 2005
10:32 PM
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Hey Scott,
Your still my bud even if we disagree a little LOL LOL. But thats what makes this hobby so fun. I for one disagree with some of the new rules. Leaves to many hole for non-quality points to be given. Also they can score if a bird lands!!!and keep scoring till the second one lands. The way I see it if a bird lands its over with. And to score axel rollers well thats a step back! And the word Adequately what does that mean? is this going to open a can of worms? Quality should be the main concern in the 11 or the 20 bird kits. And the wording Depth and duration. boy is that got to bite some azz. Someone will have a bird spin for 2 seconds and only drop 5 feet. Which I can't see it happening but they will use that word of duration to get some points. Why is that word in there? Are they going to have a guideline saying that if the bird rolls 27 revs in 2 seconds he is scoreable? even if he only drops 8 feet? I don't know who wrote these new guidelines but I'm sorry I can't see where they are helping the quality of the roll. But like I said quality should the most important part of the fly. Have fun!fly the birds and enjoy.
Brian
P.S Ditto Scott
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
317 posts
Jun 24, 2005
3:16 AM
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O.K. Fellows.Here is some of my thoughts on this.
Seems like Cliff & I are the ones(mostly) that havn't flown in competition on this thread.Scott & the Brians are Comp Fliers.The first thing is no one who never flew in comp. was allowed to vote on the new rule changes.So you all that did fly are the ones that voted the new rules in.If they were so lax why did the comp fliers vote them in?
Now lets take Kenny's score last fall.He put up a very impressive score.It is in the books and is there for everyone to see forever.I would have loved to have seen it as well as a bunch of others would too.Now would his score have been any different under the New rules?
O.K. The new rules have passed.Suppose Cliff or I should have a lucky fly day this fall and break Kenny's record would the first holler be it was because of the new rules.Is it going to be posted under Kenny's score that this was before the new rules were in place?
I was excited about maybe getting to fly this fall but I can see what is happening already.
I think the 11 bird fly is outstanding and will be the only one I will ever fly in.Call it the kiddie fly or crybaby fly or whatever rules you go by.One thing is for sure if I have a roller that wingswitches after a good roll and comes out backwards from the kit I will continue to fly it weither a judge scores it or not.
And since the judge's word is final why would anyone want to argue over how they were scored?It don,t change the score.I think there would be sheer joy just getting everyone together.
If one of you fellows showed up to judge my kit I would be satisfied for you to just sit in the shade and chat with me for the 20 minutes and just hand me a zero score.LOL. David
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
318 posts
Jun 24, 2005
3:33 AM
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Brian Mc. You said;When I judged our 11 bird fly this past weekend
Has the NBRC Fall Fly started in some areas?(or is this local)
We are scheduled for Aug.26,27 & 28th.Hope we get enough to fly.
What are some of you alls schedule? David
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rollerpigeon1963
19 posts
Jun 24, 2005
7:00 AM
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David,
I want to wish you and Cliff the best of luck when you do fly. One of my good friends got to take part in his first fly the other day. He was totally excited! he said man I'm glad I did get my feet wet. Now he is hooked and looking forward to fly in his next competition. But he is striving for his goal one step at a time. Not to make excuses here but I for one couldn't vote on the rules. I didn't fly last year. We moved into our new home and I never wanted to resettle my older birds so I had a bunch of young birds. I have a better chance to fly the fall fly than the W/C because of the hawk problems. But what ever the rules are I will follow them. Its just a part of the game.
David, Kenny's score from last year is Kennys score form last year. This is a new year and different scores will be posted. There will be a different judge and a new set of eyes that will see things differently. Not saying Kennys birds didn't post a great score and not taking anything away from him. But this is a new year and a new set of eyes judging the birds.
David, you will find most people no matter what the rules are still will fly under any of them. Because most people just want to put the birds up for everyone. And when some of us complain about some of the rules being lax. Well some of us think that the stiffer the rules the better the kits will be down the road {say in the next 10 years}. But I will say that the best kit will win. The lax rules will be for some to get a few point instead of a zero. But I doubt that it will give them enough to win a fly.
David, this computer will allow us to talk to one another as if we are right in your livingroom. So some will complain no matter what and with it being in cyberspace it will be easier for you to pick up. And if you didn't have the computer you would never know of the complaining. Because the ones mostly complaining is the ones that would never show up in your backyard.
David the 11 bird fly is great for the new guys or the guys who might had a problem where they lost a bunch of birds. And there is just some guys that like flying the 11 bird kits. I believe this is a plus for the fall fly for the NBRC. Brings in some new guys and lets some get there feet wet. Gives a taste of variety.
David these flys are for us to participate in to see others birds and see how they have improved from the year before. It allows us to visit everyone and talk face to face. Its a lesson on what to look for and what not to look for. With the judge, judging everyones kits you have an idea where you stand. It allow you to see what quality is! And the more flys you attend the better idea what to look for.
Just a few thoughts not that they are correct just my opinion.
Brian
Again hope to see your kits someday
I think the 11 bird fly is outstanding and will be the only one I will ever fly in.Call it the kiddie fly or crybaby fly or whatever rules you go by.One thing is for sure if I have a roller that wingswitches after a good roll and comes out backwards from the kit I will continue to fly it weither a judge scores it or not.
And since the judge's word is final why would anyone want to argue over how they were scored?It don,t change the score.I think there would be sheer joy just getting everyone together.
If one of you fellows showed up to judge my kit I would be satisfied for you to just sit in the shade and chat with me for the 20 minutes and just hand me a zero score.LOL. David
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
319 posts
Jun 24, 2005
8:55 AM
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Brian.If it wasn't for the computer I would still be searching for rollers.The computer is the only contact I will ever have with most of the roller flyers around.Heck I even get to talk to some of the fellows from England.I love the discussions we all have over whatever and have learned a lot from them.I also like to hear both sides of a discussion too.None of us will ever agree on everything.Heck I don,t agree with myself now and then.LOL
You are welcome to come visit anytime.Just so its not in Deer Season.LOL. David
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
39 posts
Jun 24, 2005
3:29 PM
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David, this was in one or our local club flys, not the NBRC Fall Fly. In one of the clubs I am in, we fly the standard 20 bird for the season, then one 11 bird fly and one individual bird fly.
Brian.
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Velo99
27 posts
Jun 24, 2005
4:35 PM
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I entered this project to have fun. Sometimes I get a bit discouraged by the rhetoric here. I didn`t mean to disparage the quality judges engaged by the NBRC to assess our kits to the standard set forth by the NBRC.
This is the crux of my post as well. We pay entry fees to have the judge assay our kits against the standard. If one does not like the score it is because one cannot come to grips with the fact that all the work he has done is in drastic need of improvement. I personally would like to see an improvement in my scores as I fly in the years to come. Our scores reflect the judges assesment of our kits against the standard,not each other.
mtc/yits
v99
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motherlodelofts
127 posts
Jun 24, 2005
8:59 PM
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v99, keep in mind that this thing is much bigger than the few of us kicking it around between us.
Also keep in mind that guys like myself and both Brians have a friendship that stretches far further than this list.
We may not agree on things at times but it never affects our friendships.
Scott
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rollerpigeon1963
22 posts
Jun 24, 2005
9:48 PM
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Speak for yourself Scott!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just Kidding LOL LOL
Brian Middaugh
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