DHenderson
7 posts
Jun 22, 2005
9:17 PM
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I don't know if anyone has ever used this gauge to estimate depth at any height.
Well several years ago I was looking at a still photo of my kit flying in a normal formation, mine tend to fly more in a ball shape as they fly but relatively tight in formation compared to many kits I have seen.
I started to wonder about how big my kit flew in formation on average so I decided to measure the wing span on my birds. I would say from memory that most of my birds were from 22" to 23" wing span and they seemed to fly tight in formation but there was still a lot of room between the birds, I'd say at least 1 to 1 1/2 wing span between birds , I'd say like 6 birds wide and 4-5 birds deep, so a little wider then deeper, so if I were to estimate I'd say they fly around in approximately a circle about 20 feet wide and 12-15 feet deep (front to back. Now if you can gauge this with your team you can estimate depth, at least approximate like anyone else can but this is a pretty good gauge if you ask me.
You have to remember that as a single bird would spin out the kit is also flying away from this bird but I think after a little practice you'll be able to get pretty good at this, guessing the depth.
Seconds is pretty good too but many birds don't fall at the same rate so putting seconds in to feet approximately could be a nightmare, without a gauge.
well just thought I'd share this concept I have been practicing for at least the last 5 years.
Try it, take some still photos of your kit, and them measure your birds and make an average size of bird and put the figures together.
Best of luck
Dave
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nicksiders
147 posts
Jun 22, 2005
11:28 PM
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Dave - as poorly as my birds have been kitting I would require a super wide angle lense to get'em all in the picture.....LOL
I am going to try this to first get a better study on how well they are kitting and how they are improving over two or three week period. While I am at it I will try to snap some of the pictures when the majority are at the end of the roll on a break and see what I have going on in totality: dept and number rolling. Date them; weather condition annotated; which kit; time released and as much data as I can get.
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Velo99
25 posts
Jun 23, 2005
4:21 PM
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Have you guys ever taken photos of your birds rolling before? I would like to see them if I may. I haven`t been terribly successful in catching them in midroll.
t/y yits
v99
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rollerpigeon1963
13 posts
Jun 23, 2005
5:57 PM
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Dave thats pretty good. But remember when you are standing under a kit and looking at the kit. Things are very different. At my last house I lived on a hill I mean it was at least a 200 foot drop to the side. And when the birds would fly they would roll on the side of the cliff. Standing even with the birds you could get a good idea when they dropped. I mean you were eye level with the kit. They looked like 30 footers. When they rolled at eye level. Now when you stand under them they didnt look that deep. Because of the illusion you get when under them. Once you see them eye level and count 1 thousand one, 1 thousand two was close to a 20' Not perfect but close. And in my eyes that was a good way to get a good scale of depth. Because the birds roll at different levels you have to have a good scale that will work for them when they roll and not trying to judge depth by guessing. just like taking a plastic pop cap on a step ladder and drop the cap at 10' and count and you will be close. Now a pigeon will cause some resistance while dropping. But with it spinning it will cause it to drop a little fast than a dead mass, So it evens out. Like I said it works for me and I use it, not perfect but close. Just my opinion. I'm sure there is other out there that has there ways of judging.
Brian Middaugh
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rollerpigeon1963
14 posts
Jun 23, 2005
6:02 PM
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Another thing I had a bird that would roll down as soon as you tossed it up and it straighten out. I mean once it got to the returning point of the fall it would roll and hit the ground. I took that same bird and tossed it to the eve of our house and when it started to fall it rolled up and rolled to the ground. I was able to count to 1 thousand one and half way through the second count and it hit the ground. The eve of the house was 17'.
Just my take
Brian
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DHenderson
8 posts
Jun 23, 2005
8:00 PM
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Hi Brian,
we are trying to gauge depth while they are up not duration. Duration and depth are like day and night to themselves and the rules state depth NOT duration, even though most of us know that a 10-15 footer that spins for about 2 seconds is a tight SOB.
I understand what you see about being underneath them when they break but I assure you if you get used to watching that same kit from the side at all you can learn to gauge it, the size or diameter of a kit is mostly the same from day to day, I'm am referring to your own kit as reference, this is how you will learn this skill to use at other lofts.
As we know it's not going to be rocket Science accurate but it's teaches you to gauge it based on the size of the kit when up higher away from other objects. There are no trees up 400-500 feet to gauge depth on. If the rules stated duration it would be easy wouldn't it? all you would have to do is practive watching birds for specific durations to get used to what you would need to see up in the air, but it's based on approximate depth.
You will have to try it on your own kit to know what I am talking about, take a digital camera and take a shot of your kit in a normal flying pattern, measure the birds average wing span and body length while stretched out in the flying position, it will take 2 people to do it right. Then you can get a better feel for what I am talking about in your kit.
best of luck
Dave
ps would like to see some results posted from you guys to see how big your kits are flying in kit formation on average
Last Edited by DHenderson on Jun 23, 2005 8:04 PM
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rollerpigeon1963
18 posts
Jun 23, 2005
11:03 PM
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Dave,
I must have real bad rollers. Because mine are not all on the same level. One may be 3' above the bird on the bottom and one might be 1' below the birds in the middle. Different levels of flying. Because I have had one roll through the kit and crash with another one. And mine dont just roll when they at your side, They even roll right above your face. I have had birds roll when the wind blows them down the street. And when a bird gets up to 500 to 600 feet and there right above your head {Straight up} you can see how far they drop. Say for example 15 drops at multiple depths? When I'm on the side of the cliff looking at the birds you can honestly see how large the kit really is. Thick that is! And when you look at them from the ground they look bunched up tight. But they are at different levels in that kit. And when you take a still photo of your kit the camera don't give you the thickness of the kit. You are compairing still images with the knowledge you have. And when you go judge someones kit and there birds are twice to 3 times bigger than yours what do you do? I have seen birds that would take a shopping cart to haul them to the kitbox. And then there is some birds that 5oz of weight. I seen kits that are tight kitters where you couldn't caount the birds in the kit. And then I seen some very loose kits that were still scored. By the time you figure it out you lost a bunch of points because your trying to get a bearing on what is going on. Sorry call me stupid. Last post on this subject for me.
Brian
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DHenderson
9 posts
Jun 24, 2005
10:23 PM
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Hi Brian,
I'm not trying to say that the birds aren't at differnt layer, we know they are but I am referencing to the outside diameter of the kit, I think you understand.
When I bird drops into a spin and is balled up it will leave the kit in part to the kit still flying and also due to the distance it rolled, even if the kit was 3 feet above most of the birds you would still see the distance it dropped, partially due to depth in combination with duration as the bird is balled up you can estimate by looking at the size of the kit, space between most of the birds ect... What I am saying is once you learn to gauge it you can spot it easier when viewing a kit.
I don't know how big bigger birds measure but I would think that it would be rare to see a 4" differnce in wing span from a large roller to a small roller, 2" on each wing but it might be possible I would suppose but I have never seen them out here in that drastic a wing span. The most noticable size different is the thickness of the feathers, width of wings, thickness in the body and length of the body, the wings are pretty close I would guess with most rollers.
We all know Brian that this is not going to be an exact science with the naked eye and a second or two to make the decision. This is why it's important to have well versed judges doing our judging at the regional level. It really doesn't matter much as the way the rules are written the judge can select whatever method works best for him.
The skills I mention in this are for you all to work on at your local level as we do here. I would say that most of the kits in our club fly in a relatively similar fashion as most of them are related.
I have seen some kits that are more strung out in formation instead of in a round formation and also the kits that fly at least twice the formation of that mine does but you can see the spacing and easily guess the size once you get used to it. As I said once you measure your own and take an average you won't see much change from loft to loft, but I have seen some that are very large looking but have never measured them.
I think it's mostly the diameter of the kit that you get used to gauge it on, again it is never going to be exact. I urge you to try it and let me know what you see.
I have seen kits on hill sides too as your old loft and have seen the stacked kits adn know what you are referring too, I would imagine that they could be within about a 5-6 feet difference in altitude from what I have seen in a few kit like this and from my recollection it was a little harder to gauge the depth on kit that fly in this type of formation but most aren't like this.
I know if I was a flyer and new that my kit liked to fly directly over head I would be telling my so called judge where the best place to judge would be, if this is 100 yards away from your loft so be it. I know here mine tend to fly east of my house and if there is too much wind they will be difficult to see as they'll drop altitude behind the orchard of large walnuts trees east of me, so I know on windy days that it's best to judge them from a different position where you can view them more regularly which is a couple hundred yards south of my loft. I dont' get south winds in here of much strength on a regular basis, 90% of the wind comes from the North here as I am in an upper valley socked in to some large mountains North of me and around on 3 sides. Your area might have difference conditions there no doubt.
I urge you to experiment with this with your A teams and see what you find.
Dave
ps thanks for your input Brian
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motherlodelofts
129 posts
Jun 25, 2005
5:57 AM
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Dave I'm not so hip on actual depth.
I shot competitive archery for years, on unmarked shoots it was "yardage" estimation and we worked hard at it, and there are some tricks, but these are deer size targets that are out to 55 yrds(165') and straight out from you, one thing that would really throw you for a loop was when the target was accross a draw where there was dead space between you and the target, trust me a kit that is up in the zone at few hundred feet would be impossible to judge in feet for "ME" with any type of accuracy, now maybe if I had a kit that flew "exactly" the same formation at "exactly" the same ht. and exactly the same distance out, and everything else stayed "exact" where perception stayed "exact" then it could be do able for "me" with practice.
At time's I will use "duration" but mostly I just tell myself things like "too short of depth" "short depth" "Good depth" , "deep depth" , that is the best that "I" can do, sure I can throw out feet on those but it won't be accurate as it would be nothing short of a guess.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jun 25, 2005 6:03 AM
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motherlodelofts
131 posts
Jun 26, 2005
6:46 AM
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Dave I did when they first came out over ten years ago. My main bag was comptitive marked yardage. I used to shoot 3-4 hrs a day and had a sponsership from Hoyt through the Archery shop,which basicly meant that I got a shirt and a new bow every year.
For unmarkeed there were tricks that you could use to some degree, but it evolved around knowing the exact size of the target which wasn't hard due to standard sizes depending which 3-D target it was.
Ive been doing some shooting here lately and plan on hitting some tournaments this Fall, I won't shoot it as serious as I once did though.
Scott
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nicksiders
243 posts
Oct 17, 2005
11:31 AM
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This is the post I was thinking about when trying to estimate roll depth.
How do say WC judges estamate depth or the NBRC fly judges?
Any judges out there?
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scotty
14 posts
Oct 18, 2005
1:46 AM
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I have herd of the length of a telephone pole as being about 25-30 ft.Thats about the distance I like to see my rollers roll.-Mike
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nicksiders
249 posts
Oct 18, 2005
9:32 PM
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It is difficult for me to envison a telephone pole when the birds are at 300 to 600 feet in the air nearly straight overhead.
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motherlodelofts
356 posts
Oct 18, 2005
10:22 PM
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LOL exactly Nick , for me it is deep or short and everything in between.
Trying to guess actual feet means little and is nothing but a guess , I will do it but I wouldnt bet on it's accuracy.
Scott
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Ballrollers
97 posts
Oct 19, 2005
11:21 AM
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Dave, You said, "The rules say depth NOT duration..." Can you quote or state the rule that says a judge CANNOT use duration to estimate depth in either the WC or NBRC rules? YITS Cliff
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motherlodelofts
365 posts
Oct 19, 2005
12:42 PM
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Cliff I think that duration is covered by "suggested ten feet min." it doesn't read that thay "have" to be 10 ft. , duration will also give the impression of depth in many cases such as when they are overhead.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Oct 19, 2005 12:44 PM
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Ballrollers
100 posts
Oct 19, 2005
4:55 PM
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Scott, Dave,
#7 scoring....."Likewise, a depth or duration factor of 1.0-2.0 shall be multiplied to produce a final score.
#9 Integrity "The judge shall not score anything that does not meet his standard for adequate quallity and depth or duration of performance."
Nowhere do I see any negative opinions for the use of duration to help score a kit of birds. In fact, the opposite appears to be true.
YITS, Cliff
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