|
The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
The SECRET to SUCCESS in Rollers
The SECRET to SUCCESS in Rollers
Page:
1
2
Double D
27 posts
Sep 29, 2005
8:48 PM
|
I've been giving this a great deal of thought and for someone who doesn't even have birds yet this might seem arrogant. However, having had years of experience in something that I believe I can draw many parallels from, I'm going to share some thoughts and those of you who are more experienced can feel free to "straighten me out" if need be without concern for hurt feelings because I have a great deal of respect for your opinion and the only things I take personal are things my wife might say to me. So, having set the stage, I venture forward. I apologize in advance for the long-windedness but I hope it will be worth it.
I have competed in bass fishing tournaments for years. I have fished a great deal for bass for twice as many years as I've fished tournaments. I have always done pretty well placing in the top half to top third of the group. Unlike many of those I fish against, I am strictly a weekend angler as I don't have the time during the week to fish. As a result, I stick with the productive water and the lures that I know will produce fish for me consistently, rarely, if ever, using what little time I have to fish to find new water or try different lures or color variations of lures I have confidence in. As a result, I do well but have never won a tournament in all those years. However, lucky, and unlucky, for me, there is one guy in the area who consistently kicks everybody's butt, and I don't mean just once in awhile or just by a little. He puts the whoopin to us good in nearly every tournament he enters! Unlucky in that I'm sick of losing to this guy. Lucky in what I have learned from him that I believe is applicable here. He has not, and will never, share the secrets of exactly where he's catching the fish or what lure he's using but he has told me things that I believe are the secret to his success and the secret to my future success on winning flying competitions with rollers. So here I go:
First, he spends a lot of time on the water practicing and preparing for tournaments. Second, when he's on the water, he never fishes known productive water that he, and everyone else, already knows about. He always fishes new water, water he's never fished before. The result? He's come across a few spots that hold tournament winning fish in every lake we hold tournaments on that no one else knows about. Third, he's become a master at two very important things: finding the really sweet spot on the hot spot and finding the lure in the right color that catches those few extra fish or the few big fish that no one else seems to catch because he changes lures and color variations a lot when he's pre-fishing. He'll use an 8' foot rod in a special situation that allows him to get that one hook-set on a big fish when the rest of us would probably have lost that fish using the standard 6 to 7 foot rod in that same situation. Finally, he puts a lot of meditation and thinking time into his craft. He thinks about things even when he's not on the water, not shallow thoughts but deep-thinking and analyzing thoughts. This all boils down to a few things that in my opinion make the difference between the really good roller men in competition and the really great roller men that seem to be consistently at the top. The "Great", whether in bass fishing or roller competition most likely do the following to a great extent:
#1. They put the time in! Lots of it! And it's quality time in every way, nothing wasted. They constantly think about how to improve. Not just improve the birds but improve loft layout, loft management, training schedules, and the list goes on and on.
#2. They take the time to intelligently experiament with everything they possibly can, being very careful to record every little piece of information that might be helpful. Examples include breeding pairs, feed mixtures, kit selection, etc. They don't experiament a little with a few things then stay with the one of the few that works best, they constantly change, record, learn, and hone what they're doing and work at it all the time.
#3. (And this might be the most important) They pay attention to detail, the tiny little nuances and tweeks that most guys don't know about and even if they did they wouldn't take the time to do them, (8' fishing rod). Sometimes those things even go against the norm or accepted way of doing things. These are things they've learned from numbers 1 and 2 above. They are constantly learning from others also. This guy I mentioned earlier, early in his fishing career, wouldn't enter a tournament but would launch his boat at the big tournaments and follow the best fishermen around. He learned what they did while being able to also learn what not to do from those who didn't do so well because he watched and talked with EVERYBODY. THE DEVIL IS IN THE DETAILS!, (every little, tiny, minor freakin detail)
To me, it encompasses a few things: learning and knowing what to do because you can't just do a whole bunch of whatever and be successful, its got to be the right things and the intelligent things, AND, being willing to take the time and do the things that MOST ARE NOT WILLING TO DO, i.e., taking time to fish a whole bunch of unknown, unproductive water, not catching fish all freakin day long, just to find those hidden sweet spots that hold the fish that will win you the tournament. His boat is by far not even close to the nicest or the fastest. He doesn't even need to be first to the spot because he knows you'll leave the big fish behind because you haven't taken the time to learn what it takes to catch him so he'll fish right behind you and make a good angler look like an idiot.
I believe understanding the above and implementing it 110% will lead to world-class success. As always, I look forward to your thoughts!
|
Double D
28 posts
Sep 29, 2005
9:13 PM
|
A prime example of this from recent memory was something I read here about individually feeding each kit bird in your A kit and how effective that could be. To do that, you'd really have to have spent the time getting to KNOW your birds. Man, you'd almost have to "know" them biblically to know 'em that well. LOL!
|
motherlodelofts
303 posts
Sep 29, 2005
10:08 PM
|
All I know is that you talked me into going fishing this weekend LOL LOL
|
MCCORMICKLOFTS
167 posts
Sep 29, 2005
10:16 PM
|
Good post D.
The guy you are referring to wouldn;t happen to be Dee Thomas would it?
BTW, I was the 1997 ABA Central Coast Angler of the Year, and, never won a tournament that year! (but came close in all of them).
There is no substitute for time.
There is no substitute for desire.
There is no substitute for paying attention to the details.
Combine those three and eventually, you will taste success.
Brian.
|
Shaun
100 posts
Sep 30, 2005
12:00 AM
|
Well, for every top English flyer I've read interviews with and articles about, over five decades, the most notable thing is that their methods rarely coincided. For every bloke who made copious notes, there was another who couldn't be arsed to commit anything to paper.
For every flyer who was convinced his birds had a kit leader, and without that bird the kit would go flat, there would be another who said he'd never noticed kit leaders with his own birds and so thought the concept was a load of tosh.
For every flyer who was convinced that he had the feeding methods to a fine art, there would be another who wouldn't able to tell you how much he gave his birds on a day-to-day basis - and even precisely what he fed them.
Some of these top flyers would say they could pick a good bird off the perch; others would acknowledge they could only do it from the air.
Surely, what this proves is that there are many different ways to be successful with rollers. After all, if someone had hit on a method which resulted in the most success, everyone else would have got in on the act and copied those methods, thus raising the overall standard and also still making it difficult to get to the top and stay there.
There are many things which have advanced over the years, but many that haven't. I'm a guitarist and without shadow of doubt, the general level of technical ability of today's players is way ahead of what it was decades ago. This is because there's always someone new who comes along and stretches the envelope, for everyone to then imitate and raise the general standard. In the 1960s it was Jimi Hendrix who spawned a zillion great guitarists. Then, just as things were levelling off, along came Eddie Van Halen with a whole new technique, to spawn the next generation of guitarists.
Other things, however, it's not so obvious. Think of sports. There are many who will argue that the feats of sportsmen from the 1950s have yet to be surpassed decades later. And, so it is with rollers. There's ongoing debate as to whether the birds and the handlers are actually any better than the gooduns from, say, the 1950s.
But, Darin, I think there's one thing where the analogy with the bass fishing breaks down, in its comparison with roller flying. The top bloke you've discussed is clearly in control and his methods appear to work for him day in, day out.
You just can't be in that much control with rollers. There are just too many variables which make it impossible for anyone to consistently gain the level of control which clearly can be applied to fishing. The weather, for one, is a huge variable which can snuff out a man's hopes in an instant. With fishing, the weather can, of course, have an impact. But, with rollers, the effects of weather are more extreme. At its worst, sudden weather changes can mean the loss of whole kits. Weather continues to be an inexact science, so there are limits to what roller flyers can learn and anticipate.
For competitions, a flyer is given a specific time to let the birds out. At that precise point, he has to release the birds and within a small timeframe, have them on the clock and be judged. You just need to read any detailed account of the progression of a competition fly, to see how many hopes are buggered by the weather - or a hawk attack, or (in England, certainly), the rollers getting caught up in a flock of racing pigeons.
Each guy I've read who has won a major fly, has acknowledged a degree of luck on the day. What he's done in the time beforehand, is put all the odds in his favour with his breeding, training and feeding skills (and bucketloads of time, of course). However, unlike your bass fisherman, there's a limit to the amount of control the flyer has.
The fisherman, by putting in masses of time and thought, ultimately outwits the fish. Rollers, on the other hand, have proved to be a beast which is almost impossible to fully control, thus continuing to frustrate even the most experienced roller men.
This all had me a bit downhearted when I started. I think it was Brian who said in our lives, generally, we're used to be being in control of most matters. We expect to do the same with rollers, only to find a rude awakening. What I've done is adjust my expectations. I still find it amazing that on a given day my young kit will fly to the required time and standard, only to find the next day, they're crap. I used to get depressed by it, but not now. Once I realised I could never expect great performance day in, day out, I found it easier to accept things just the way they are.
Shaun
|
Double D
29 posts
Sep 30, 2005
1:10 PM
|
Scott-catch 'em all!
Brian - congrats on the Angler of the Year, I know for a fact that's very difficult to do and usually proves that you are consistently a much better angler than those who have won just a single tournament.
Shaun,
You make great points, however, I feel my logic is no less applicable. Maybe unlike my fisherman friend, the guarantee of winning is not there, (he does lose every-once-in-a-great-while), but I'm convinced that if you look at top competition flyers that are always ranked high consistently, these are exactly the steps they follow.
Michael Jordon, Tiger Woods, etc., etc., etc., it's the key to world-class performance. Now, that doesn't mean you'll always be on the very top or that someone better won't come along but when they do, I guarantee you it's because they took the same steps but applied in maybe a little different way. Make sense?
|
Double D
30 posts
Sep 30, 2005
1:25 PM
|
Brian,
The guy's name is Cory Mitchell. We fished a big Open a few weeks ago and one of the top teams came in with just over 18 pounds of smallmouth on a very tough lake. These guys, (it was a team tournament) were just sure they had finally beat THE MAN. He humbly walks over to his boat as one of the last to weigh in and walks back to the scales with over 21 freakin pounds, absolutely amazing! 15 pounds will win most big tournaments on that body of water. And do you know what the kicker was? We were fishing real close to him most of the day and we came in with 13 pounds. As I heard it, the big ones he caught during the hour and half or so he had left our area and went to someplace that nobody knew where it was. I'll tell you, the B.A.S.S. boys should be real glad he don't step up to their level because I'll tell you what, they'd have their hands full within a year or two. He's that good.
Last Edited by Double D on Sep 30, 2005 1:27 PM
|
Shaun
105 posts
Sep 30, 2005
2:39 PM
|
Darin, sorry, no, I don't get the golfing analogy either. When Tiger Woods sets out to hit his little balls, his chances of success are largely down to his form at that particular time. If the weather or other relevant factors were to have an undue negative influence on the outcome, the match, or whatever, would be called off. So, the likes of Tiger are able to perform with much more of a level playing field (if you pardon the pun) than roller guys who have to take their chances against the vagaries of the elements, etc.
I'm sure no-one would disagree with what you've said about the dedication side of rollers, etc, but this doesn't enable anyone to avoid the variables over which there's no control.
Yes, what you've outlined would clearly give the most dedicated of rollermen the greatest chance of success, all other things being equal. But - and this very question has been asked here before - why do World Cup winners, etc, not repeat the process year after year? Sportsmen, for example, can dominate their chosen sport for many a year (such as Tiger Woods). Why can't roller people?
It has to be that the chances of repeating everything which went right for the winnners, in a given year, are unlikely to be repeated the next. You just can't take away that huge element of luck - or, to not take anything away from their achievements, the gods shining down on them at that particular time.
It seems that what you're saying is that these odds can be overcome by applying the same principles which apply to sporting-type successes elsewhere. But, many roller guys have been passionate, studious and dedicated the world over, for decades, but haven't been able to crack the year-in, year-out consistency which can be seen in other sports.
That, surely, remains something of a Holy Grail.
Shaun
|
motherlodelofts
307 posts
Sep 30, 2005
3:06 PM
|
Shaun it isn't the crap shoot that you and others think it is, there is a whole lot more to it.
There are allways particular people that can come up and slap you on the back of the head , making your own luck plays a huge role also.
You may see some top kits down the line of the score sheet but you won't see poor kits at the top. (unless the judge is a dimwit).
This sport is exactly like many other in the fact the the competition is stiff and those that have what it take's and put the work into it are generaly the one's that are the ones taking names.
Are there variables ? yes , we had the same shooting competitive archery, catch wind on the other side of the hill where others didn't have it, sun in the eyes on particular targets that others didn't have, ect. everyone in the game has obsticals of one sort or another , the winners work through them.
Look at the top at the sheets year after year and not just the one win spot and you will see undeniable consistancy with a number of fliers.
Look at the whole picture of W/C / national / regional / and you will see the same names over and over again in the top ten , they make their own luck to a huge degree .
Just my opinion
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Sep 30, 2005 3:19 PM
|
MCCORMICKLOFTS
168 posts
Sep 30, 2005
3:24 PM
|
D, for sure 21 pounds for five Smallies is "monumental". Most guys would only dream of a sack that big full of Smallies. Those are largemouth tourney numbers. But I can say that as a general rule, size associates with like size when it comes to sportfish like Bass. There are many guys like your friend who have a certain "knack" for figuring it all out, especially on high pressure bodies of water. I've seen them here locally, and it never ceases to amaze how they always seem to find the right fish, especially when most of the field is struggling.
There was one night tourney years ago where I knew the plan I had for me and my partner was going to be slightly different than was everyone else was doing. But as angling goes, you don't know until you get out there and start adjusting until you figure out the pattern. We stuck to our plan while others were doing the "usual" and we ended up with 10, 8.5 and 8 pounders for the standard three fish limit. We smoked the field by more than 10 pounds!
Shaun, while I have done both of what D was mentioning, I can say that there is more of a similarity than you might consider. Luck plays just as much of a roll in tournament angling as it does in flying rollers. Weather is just about as much of a luck force for tournament angling as it is for flying rollers, and in some cases, can be even worse for the tournament angler. And, often the success goes to the ones who can overcome the adversity. A similarity would be trying to overcome the molt, overcome oncoming weather, overcome predators, etc. Adjustments can be made, and you have to be lucky.
Having tasted some success in both sports, I can easily compare the time required, the skill involved and developed as well as all of the small nuances that contribute to success in both sports. In essence, we can skip the issue of who gets the award with a #1 on it because overall, it's a matter of conscious awareness and planning, with a dash of luck. To be consistent you have to spend the time to learn, practice, execute and pay attention to those ever so important details. Then you have to have the ability to be able to draw on those experiences when the situation warrants. Without gene-splicing the finer details of comparison, the only major different between what D posted and rollers is that once you open the kit box door, you are a spectator. With angling, destiny is more in your hands, though the results may not show it on any given day.
There are many guys who have continuously done well in the WC, just as there are many guys who continuously win angling tournaments as well as loose by one-tenth of a pound.
Brian.
|
motherlodelofts
308 posts
Sep 30, 2005
4:13 PM
|
You guys got me pumped , the boat is loaded and I'm out here.
Scott
|
Double D
31 posts
Sep 30, 2005
5:33 PM
|
I appreciate where you're coming from Shaun but as Brian and Scott have confirmed, the flyers consistently in the top 10% to 20% are doing things differently. I guarantee you that. If not, then why would birds from a top loft in the hands of a novice not do just as well as the birds from the top loft? The only variable that really makes a difference is the fancier and what he/she puts into their program. Tony, Paul, JStar? Care to chime in?
|
Shaun
107 posts
Sep 30, 2005
10:48 PM
|
I feel my remarks are being somewhat distorted, as it is surely obvious to all that the guys who put the most in to rollers are likely to get the most out. That goes for pretty much anything and such methods don't seem like any great secret.
There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that top roller guys can make it to the top 10-20% in the world and stay there. But, we need to go back to Darin's main thrust of this post:
"...there is one guy in the area who consistently kicks everybody's butt, and I don't mean just once in awhile or just by a little. He puts the whoopin to us good in nearly every tournament he enters!"
Name me someone in rollers who - like a Tiger Woods - who has done that over the years. I'm not talking about the top 10-20% - but someone who's taking all the trophies.
With dedication, etc, if everything goes according to plan, that might well give a guy a regular position in the world's top 10-20% - but, that's not the same as kicking everyone's butt in nearly every tournament.
In many sports, be it fishing, archery or whatever, there have been people who been able to absolutely dominate, often for lengthy periods. Think of the earlier career of our roller friend, Mike Tyson, for example.
Who achieves such dominant consistency in rollers - not just remaining in the top 10 or 20, but kicking butt, year in year out?
I firmly believe that the variables over which roller flyers have little control, are the very things which prevent any one guy taking the honours year after year.
Shaun
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
479 posts
Oct 01, 2005
4:02 AM
|
Shaun.I agree with you.This is the only Competition that I know of that takes place in each contestants backyard and narrowed down to a 20 minute time frame established by someone else and over a period of months.David
|
Mongrel Lofts
30 posts
Oct 01, 2005
6:10 AM
|
Hey Shaun,
How about Monty Nieble. He won the WC 3 times and won it a few more times when it was the international fly. I think you will find a couple 2nds and 3rds in there also.. I mean flying the best team in the world 3 times is pretty darn dominate if you ask me. Monty just well may have been the short,white, red headed tiger woods of the roller sport? Mongrel Lofts
|
Shaun
108 posts
Oct 01, 2005
8:55 AM
|
Well, I'm on a hiding to nothing here, aren't I? I'm well aware there are plenty of guys whose roller accomplishments most certainly put them in the world class category (after all, I bought my rollers from one of the most consistent flyers over the last 40 years). Do you think I'm crazy enough to take anything away from their achievements? But, the World Cup changes hands every year, with only two guys having won it more than once.
Surely, you can see the difference between guys who are at the top in rollers, where the major competition wins jump from one very able guy to another - and the fisherman that Darin has told us about, whereby no-one can touch him as he beats his opponents hands down in nearly every tournament he enters?
The difference is that the fisherman is simply better than his peers. However, the top roller guys - well, they're all great, but it's the variables over which they don't have sufficient control (the weather being just one) which seems to prevent any one guy, kicking everyone else's butt year in, year out - and that's what this post was initially about, but we've ended up arguing semantics.
If I'm wrong then let me see world domination over a sustained period - just two years would be a good start - then I'll gladly acknowledge that roller man has managed to conquer the adverse odds with any degree of consistency, and that he no longer has to raise his head to the sky on competition fly day, praying that lady luck and a few gods will be smiling down on him.
Shaun
|
fhtfire
220 posts
Oct 01, 2005
2:28 PM
|
Sorry for not getting into this conversation....I was to busy...training my birds...LOL! Well, this is a pretty good topic. Darin brought up some good points. I do not know if comparing rollers to fishing is a good comparison. Don't get me wrong...I do quite a bit of fishing and my brother is a fishing fool...He has a kick ass lund fishing boat...anyway...I think fishing is a lot of luck too...I know that sometimes I get all the fish and the next time someone else does and we are doing the same thing...maybe it is the way you hold your pole. I know that there is more to it..then just putting you pole in the water...but anyway...We are talking rollers...LOL! It is totally true that it is 20% birds and 80% the fancier. If you do not train your birds the right way...they are not going to do that well. I mean...first you have to have some good blood. If the birds do not have it...it does not matter who you are...they will suck! I do not care if you get Campbell birds...RUby Rollers....Masons...whatever the name may be...if you do not take a lot of time to train and learn your birds...you will go nowhere. Just because you buy the name does not mean that you will win competitions. I really do not think it is just about time either...you can spend a lot of time doing thing wrong thing too...I think you need to take the "time" to experiment with feed...and get to know how your birds react. Time does not me loft time...or time outside....there is also a lot of time taking notes on individual birds....notes on what feed works or does not work....notes on breeding...notes on kit development and team work.....and notes on outcomes of more rest vs. less rest....and the list goes on. Time is more then just sitting in a chair watching your birds fly. Time...to me is more like studying your whole project. To sum it up....Get birds that have the good blood/with the look and character you want.....Get as much info as possible about the birds from the fancier.....Get as much info as possible from roller-pigeon.com.....then take the time to learn every aspect of flying and breeding rollers with trial and error. Every fancier is different and every family is different...every fancier does something a little different and the birds react to different climates...temp....pressure...wind.....so to make a long story short....it takes "time" LOL!!! ...It is not the one that spends the most time with the birds...it is the one that makes the most of his/her time with the birds. To me...it all comes down to who has the magic touch....some just have it and some just do not...just like anything....either you are an athlete or you are not....Napoleon dynamite would never be an athlete...get my drift.......and one more thing....these birds have a mind of there own...and you could be the best fancier in the world and do everything right spend more "TIME" than anybody and the birds will still do what they want...we are only handlers! I hope my two cents made sense.
rock and ROLL
Paul Fullerton
|
Shaun
111 posts
Oct 01, 2005
2:56 PM
|
Well, Paul. Your posts always make sense, except I'm still standing alone here and no-one's listening. Actually, I'm going to bed in a minute, as my wife thinks I'm a moron talking to you lot all the time.
Darin, I think you need to step in here and nip this in the bud. All I'm hearing is guys reiterating how important it is be to be dedicated, etc. Now, I haven't disputed that at all; my bone of contention is that you implied that you could use the 'secrets' of your all-conquering bass fisherman and apply the same principles to rollers and rule the world. Yes, you did calm down a little in the latter part of your post and perhaps suggest that, with suitable dedication, etc, you could be up there with the best of them. That I can most definitely go along with. The bit I can't agree with is the comparison between Mr bass-man, almost humiliating his fishing counterparts, and what the established roller guys have been up to, over the past few decades. I haven't uncovered anything which suggests any sort of similar humiliating domination which we have actually seen with other sports.
Er, and just to labour my point again, I think the variables are just too great for anyone to have consistent world success.
I'm now very tired and need to go to bed.
Good night.
Shaun
|
Velo99
96 posts
Oct 01, 2005
5:12 PM
|
When I first got my birds I was reading posts on various sites. They were talking about this bird did this and this bird did that. I was looking at my 12 birds thinking "How do they know ....?" I can now look at the birds I have that are remarkably similar phisically and tell which is which by the differences in the way they fly or kit. There are several different categories I have learned to watch for.
I have grown really fond of both my birds,and the friends I have made along the way. It is a symbiotic relationship , we provide shelter and sustenance and they give us hours of entertainment and equal amounts of frustration.
yits
v99
|
Double D
32 posts
Oct 01, 2005
10:54 PM
|
Shaun, first of all I must say that I think you are getting far too caught up in the comparisons to fishing tournaments and the examples used and missing the principles I'm really refering to, not seeing the proverbial forest for the trees so to speak.
Second, because of all the variables that you speak of, not in spite of them, performance such as Monty Niebel's is very Tiger Wood-esk. In other words, what Monty was able to accomplish in the roller world would certainly be comparable to what Tiger has done in the golf world, simple because of all the variables - Monty's accomplishments are even that much more impressive.
Third, maybe to put a little more spin on understanding this, consider your own birds. You have Mason birds correct? If you and George were the only two in 10 competitions, who do you think would win 9 of the 10, if not all 10? And why would he win so many if you have the same birds?
Finally, I did some research just to see what I could find and I came up with the following:
I looked at who I would consider world-class competition flyers and I certainly don't mean to insult anyone here, in fact, I consider my research a compliment to those I talk about here as the accomplishments that I'd like to post are quite outstanding-primarily because of the variables that Shaun talks about.
It's important to keep in mind the number of competitors that actually enter the competitions that lead to the World Cup - hundreds of competitors, of those I picked out a few and have given their records here. We've already talked about Monty and there's no disputing him so I focused on a few others. I apologize in advance for any mistake in the information. Source: World Cup website:
Rick Mee: 1998 - 2nd place in the world
2000 - 3rd place in the world
Ken Easley: 2000 - 17th in the world
2001 - 25th in the world
2002 - 39th in the world
2004 - 52nd in the world
Ken Billings 2001 - 12th in the world
2002 - 6th in the world
2003 - 25th in the world
2004 - 1st in the 11-bird Falls Fly
Scott Campbell 2001 - 36th in the world
2002 - 25th in the world
2003 - 12th in the world
2004 - 25th in the world
Heine Bijker 1998 - 3rd in the world
1999 - 1st in the world
2001 - 1st in the world
2003 - 7th in the world
2005 - 2nd in the world
Now let's look at this year's World Cup Winner
Joe Bob Stuka 1998 - 35th in the world
2001 - 10th in the world
2002 - 15th in the world
2003 - 19th in the world
2005 - 1st in the world
I could have listed guys like Jerry Higgins, Chuck Roe, Dennis Burke, Jay Starley, just to name a few more. In my opinion, anything in the top 25 in the world on a fairly consistent basis is incredible and fits my definition of SUCCESS. I'm not naive enough to believe that what I posted to start this thread was intended to mean a person could be #1 year in and year out. Look at Heine though! That's as about as close to perfection as you can get in this sport. Are you going to tell me that these guys aren't doing something different from the majority of flyers out there? You bet they are, and I believe it goes back to exactly what I was talking about. Other than Ken's win, I didn't even get into these men's records in the Fall Fly which would add more credibility to what I'm talking about. I believe as the records of some of these top flyers show, there is a lot of science to it, it ain't just luck and I believe it can be duplicated by others who are willing to pay the price and commit 110% to the principles I talked about in numbers 1, 2, and 3. Shaun, shall we simply agree to disagree on this one?
Last Edited by Double D on Oct 01, 2005 11:00 PM
|
Shaun
112 posts
Oct 02, 2005
12:01 AM
|
Whoever suggested that it's all luck and no science to it? I certainly never said anything of the sort. As I mentioned, I'm on a hiding to nothing here, because the easiest thing to do is regurgitate statistics about successful flyers, saying "If that's not success, what is? What you're doing here is making it look like I've suggested that there isn't much skill, art, dedication or whatever in roller flying, just huge dollops of luck. I think you're twisting my responses to your own ends.
I have not wavered from my initial response, in that the equivalent of your superior butt-kicking fishermen is not a valid comparison and I stand by that. Now, you suggest I'm getting too caught up in that comparison.
Well, if that's the case, it was for you at an earlier stage to say "Forget the bass fisherman and let's just concentrate on the next bit about dedication, etc". I would then have wholeheartedly agreed - I mean who wouldn't? However, in doing so I would have scratched my head a bit first and asked how is any of this a secret and couldn't these same principles be applied to pretty much anything where a guy wants to get to the top and stay there.
Shaun
|
Double D
33 posts
Oct 02, 2005
8:49 AM
|
I'll take one more shot at trying to create an understanding here. With a great deal of hesitation, I'm going back to my "bass-fishing friend" for help. Shaun, it's obvious that you are not that familiar with catching bass so let me set down some background as it relates to "variables".
Let's talk about my last tournament a few weeks ago. First, at least where I live, this time of year the bass are apt to move alot, searching for food to fatten up for the coming cold weather, (variable #1). Overnight, if a cold-front moves into the area which is definitely a possibility this time of year it can really change the fish's mood, location, propensity to feed, (possible variable #2 et al.). Barometric pressure which is always rising or falling affects the fish in more ways than we understand, (variable #3). Ask any bass fisherman, the freakin wind, just as with birds, affects the fish, their desire to feed, where they feed, what they might be feeding on and the bass fisherman's ability to stay on them, (variable #4 et al). Water color, (variable #5) and water temperature, (variable #6)play a huge role in catching bass. Whether the sky is sunny or overcast also plays a role in the comfort level of a bass to move much from the cover it holds to to feed, (variable #7). Other boat traffic, (variable #8) and of course, other fishermen, (variable #9) affect one's ability to find and catch bass. I haven't even gotten into the right type of lure for the particular season or even more important and unpredictable, the right COLOR of the lure with it's many "variations", (i.e. VARIABLES). I didn't talk about whether or not there was a full moon the night before and the bass already had a chance to feed heavily the night before a tournament and many more variables that play into it.
Just as with getting rollers to do what you want them to do on a given day, there are a ton of variables that affect getting bass to do what you want them to do on a given day. At least with your birds you know where to find them! LOL In fact, in my opinion, as I go through this, the similarities are numerous and applicable and accurate. In one case, you are getting an animal under the water to do what you want it to do and in the other you are getting the animal in the air to do what you want it to do, all the while taking into account all the many variables that will affect that animal.
Having laid the groundwork, let's get back to Cory and this last tournament. While he wouldn't show it to us or tell us what the colors were, he indicated that he had used a crankbait that he had hand-painted himself to catch the 5 big fish he weighed in that day. Keep in mind, his brother was also in the boat fishing with him using a crankbait also yet he didn't catch the same fish Cory did, AND HE WAS IN THE SAME BOAT FISHING THE SAME WATER. How did Cory know what color to hand-paint that crankbait? The answer is what I am getting at with all of this.
I'M TALKING ABOUT MORE THAN JUST DEDICATION HERE. More than just a lot of time put in. Cory has taken his craft, within his sphere, to a level very few accomplish. While the following example is extreme it is possible to do and is akin to Cory's hand-painted crankbait, (one little variable in a sea of many).
Let's say you were willing to experiment with feed with each individual bird in your A kit and dial it in so close that each bird got it's own special and specific mix of feed leading up to a fly, would that put the odds, excluding all the other factors, considerably in your favor that YOUR birds would perform their best that day? Of course for the sake of arguement it's understood that all other factors are equal, i.e., you have good birds, know how to train them, etc. The individual feeding mixture for each bird is the same as that hand-painted crankbait Cory used that day.
Cory might be our Heine Bijker while Monty would be Kevin Van Dam (3 time winner of the Classic), this year's winner of the Bassmaster Classic, bass fishing's tournament comparable to that of the World Cup for rollers. Maybe not a great comparison because Heine would be closer to Monty than Cory to Kevin but the point is the same. With Heine's record, I guarantee you he's using some sort of "hand-painted crankbait" that he's figured out that no one else is aware of. How did he do it? Again, you answer that and you'll understand what I'm talking about.
|
MCCORMICKLOFTS
171 posts
Oct 02, 2005
9:07 AM
|
Shaun, do you fish in bass tournaments in the UK? Since I know you don't, nor have ever, I can tell you the mental aspect and often outcome can be quite the same. A good flyer is a good flyer. Most aren't, and that is why they lose!
I fail to understand what it is you are trying to say, really. Is it that roller flyers are some uniquely different type of competitor? Have you tasted the failure and success of a competition?
Brian.
|
Shaun
116 posts
Oct 02, 2005
11:00 AM
|
Ah, a stereo attack!
Darin, I just couldn't read any more about bass fishing; my eyes glazed over.
Brian. Some time ago, you painted a very decent picture of the nature of the type of guy who gets into roller competition - usually people who are very competetive by nature and have probably achieved success elsewhere. They're often used to being in control. Here we have Darin whose naked ambition is there for all to see - he's said it himself; he wants to win the world cup.
Darin has come up with a 'secret' plan based on the same principles as those he's observed from the bass fisherman in order to conquer the world, or words to that effect.
Well, as I've tried to explain to the nth degree, but clearly have failed miserably, I didn't agree with the bass fishing analogy for one reason and one reason only. Darin painted a picture of a guy who was clearly humiliating his opponents time after time. I have opined that this doesn't seem to have happened with roller flying over many decades because no one person has been such a dominant force to render his opponents as not having a chance. I then went on to suggest that the many variables with which the roller competitor has to contend with, might well be the reason why no one guy has managed to dominate world events. I mean, that's it really.
Now, guys, you can agree or disagree with my synopsis, but the air of hostility here is palpable. I'm entitled to profer an opinion or two as to the aforementioned, without my fishing or any other competition endeavours being questioned. I also dislike being patronised and there's a strong whiff of it here.
I'm not keen on the 'just for the record' stuff, but as you've poked a stick in my side, Brian, I should mention 'for the record', I have not fished in a bass competition. But, what I have done, for a good number of years, is stand up in front of many hundreds of people, many times and played guitar. I've had young, loose women at the front of the stage throw knickers, seemingly in delight (soiled, I might add). My wife denies it, but she's now one of them. Yes, this was a few years ago, now. But, I do take exception to the suggestion that as I haven't taken part in the thrills and spills of bass fishing, I've somehow led a sheltered life and missed out somewhere along the line. If bass fishing is exciting and has its share of disappointments and scary moments, then imagine breaking guitar strings mid-solo, or your amplifier cutting out, so you're twanging away with no sound, looking a right tosser.
These days, I run my own business; I'm my own boss. Over the past 16 years, from the time I ventured out on my own, I've experienced many successes and many failures. I awake each morning to a blank canvas, as it were, and have to create something (multimedia training software) which clients all over the UK will hopefully wish to buy from me. I've been nearly rich and nearly bankrupt, but have just about managed to stay somewhere between the two.
So, please, patronise me no further with your fishing exploits and questions as to whether I've tasted success and failure, in competition or otherwise.
Rollers, for me, are a wonderful sideline to the main event - that being the ups and downs of everyday life. For some, it's clearly more than that and opinions will, therefore, clash. I may join you there one day, and when I do, it will be obvious because I will use CAPITAL LETTERS in my posts to make it obvious that I'm angry, frustrated, or I'm trying to bend the will of the person on the receiving end of my post.
Until then, gentlemen, thank you for the extensive lessons in bass fishing. I've been more into chub fishing, myself, on the wide stretch of river right at the bottom of my garden. If you think that's bull, Brian, I'll post a pic of me with a 6+ pound chub, standing on my little jetty - when, and only when, you send me those pics you promised me of your birds.
Shaun
|
Double D
34 posts
Oct 02, 2005
11:25 AM
|
Shaun, I apologize if you feel I've tried to be-little you as that certainly is not my intention. The capital letters were only for emphasis, not anger or frustration whatsoever. And for what I was trying to convey, any example could have been used but the principles remain the same. I simply related it to something that I knew very well. I'm certain, if I were more familiar with hobbies of England, I could have found something that you would have related to more easily and done a better job of conveying my points to you. Many on this thread understand where my analogy is coming from and therefore can relate and that may have resulted in you feeling as though you're being attacked and again, for that I apologize. Most conflicts that occur in the world, and this one apparently is no different, comes from a failure to communicate. I tried my best to communicate the principles of what I was talking about without cultural examples taking center stage but I obviously failed in your case and for that I apologize as well. Hopefully this thread was of some value to some of you as I believe that there are benefits contained therein that we can each take advantage of if we so desire as not many of us, with a few exceptions noted earlier, compete at that high of a level on a consistent basis. And maybe you don't really care to compete at that level but as for me, I rarely do anything, if I'm going to do it, half way. Again, I would encourage anyone really wanting to be consistently in the top of the competitions to go back and read, and then think about what's been written here by all as I believe, there are some hidden "secrets" still to be discovered even though your secrets may be different than someone elses. Good luck to all and again Shaun, I apologize for any offense taken as none such was intended.
Darin
|
motherlodelofts
315 posts
Oct 02, 2005
11:39 AM
|
I'll take the competitions where the girls are throwing their underwear at me anyday over handling fish or wiping pigeion crap off my shoulder. LOL
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Oct 02, 2005 11:40 AM
|
Shaun
118 posts
Oct 02, 2005
12:09 PM
|
So, you don't get roller groupies then, Scott?
That's it, then; I'm definitely not competing.
Shaun
|
Shaun
119 posts
Oct 02, 2005
12:19 PM
|
Darin, no apologies necessary - as you say, there's probably been something lost communication-wise. Going off at a tangent somewhat, when I started earlier this year, it took me a while to see from these posts, that the serious roller flyers fell into two distinct camps - those who compete and those who don't. Personally, I get a bit fed up when the emphasis leans too much towards the competition flying/world domination side of things and it all gets heavy, heavy.
I've recently had Brian at me elsewhere with lots of capital letters, so it's becoming somewhat irritating.
I'm one of those with no roller club anywhere near me, so for the time being, competition is a no-no. I'm, therefore, pursuing my own personal goals of developing shit-hot rollers, which I and others will ultimately enjoy watching. For now, the main objective is just self-satisfaction. I think many other guys reading/contributing to these posts have great drive and determination to succeed, but not necessarily with competition in mind.
Shaun
|
motherlodelofts
316 posts
Oct 02, 2005
1:02 PM
|
Shaun , the drive just isn't there without competion , and that goes for any sport including fishing , I love fishing and have done it my entire life, I have the boat, the gear ect. but what I don't have is the drive.
Nor do I need the drive as there is no reason to push myself , I will never have the skill that many have fishing as there has never been a reason for me to put that kind of determination or effort into it.
It is the same with backyard fliers , just no need , and just like fishing is for me it is just something that I enjoy.
Rollers are a different story for me, there is drive , in fact hard drive beyond what is even healthy , obsession is probably a better word for it, this also puts you in the circles of people that share the same which in turns makes you push even harder.
Which is at least part of what it takes to climb to the top of anything , when it come's to these birds I don't screw around in either the breeding loft or in training them from the time that they hit the kitbox.
Fishing is the same as Rollers , for some it is a hobby and for others it is a sport. The bottom line is that we all enjoy what we do no matter how serious or the lack of seriousness that we put into it.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Oct 02, 2005 1:05 PM
|
Shaun
120 posts
Oct 02, 2005
2:19 PM
|
Scott, thank you my fiesty friend. Me as well with the fishing thing - all the gear, but no real motivation.
Really, I do hear what you're saying, but going back to rollers, I do think guys can be just as obsessive, without pining for competion. I believe it depends on the individual's personality. Clearly you and many others do crave the competition thing, but, for me... Well, let me indulge myself a bit. At the age of 14 when most of my mates were hanging around street corners, bored to tears, I was making excuses to go back home and play my guitar - I'm talking hours of practise per day. In terms of a band, well, there were some lads who, the minute they could play a few chords, they'd want to be up on stage, to show off. I was different; I wouldn't join a band, let alone get up on stage, until I'd been playing seven years and felt I wouldn't look an idiot. It was shyness - I'm certainly not an extrovert. Truth is, before I would perform, I needed to be able to blow them away - and, also, the band needed to convince our agent that we were good enough, so he could get us gigs. But, you know, once or twice, things went badly wrong and we were paid off, ie "bugger off home - you're crap". The working mens' clubs in the North East of England (Newcastle area - big on rollers) were a hard crowd to please and the band was often just something to entertain them before the main event - bingo (a silly scratching numbers off cards game).
But, many years further down the line, we did get to the knicker throwing stage and our job was done. Or, put another way, no-one wanted to sign us, so we packed it in.
What I'm saying is that I understand obsesssion and dedication as much as anyone. But, some people are more drawn to the competition side of things than others. Yes, publicly beating your opponents is an almost biblical means of saying "hey, look what I've done". The other way - my way - has been been to say little and let my actions speak for themselves. I can appreciate that there are many guys who want and need competition, but there are also others who are still compulsive, obsessive and dedicated, without having to do that. Think mad scientists, locked away in laboratories.
Shaun
|
MCCORMICKLOFTS
172 posts
Oct 02, 2005
8:33 PM
|
Shaun, "you had me at you somewhere else"? You mean on the Veloroll where I was trying to give you some good honest advice about enjoying your rollers? Some people are too hard to please I guess. Or maybe irrated because you find yourself in misunderstood disagreement with them?
In case you haven't figured it out, I'm a straight-shooter. I try not to patronize anyone, for I find that utterly appaling. If I type something in CAPITOL letters, that is my way of making sure that THESE SENTENCES ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT TO READ OR UNDERSTAND. If you take it as yelling at you, sorry mate, but I wasn't. I asked you several questions above, not in disrepect, not in anger, not to prod. Just a series of simple, straight-to-the-point questions in regards to the topic of discussion. The reason I asked them was because you seemed to express a dedicated opinion in regards to them. I was simply curious if you had partaken in either of the two types of events under discussion. Since you have commented about being into photography, liken it to the endless debate about film vs. digital. Often the most outspoken opponent of film never used a film camera in their life.
Keep in mind that because we as a group might (and will) differ on many topics, it doesn't and shouldn't put anyone at odds with one another.
Brian.
|
Shaun
122 posts
Oct 03, 2005
12:20 AM
|
Hey, Brian, I'm not letting you off the hook that easily (if you pardon the pun). Your response on Veloroll to me also elicited irritation back to you for its tone and content from someone else. What you said to me didn't come across as advice at all - it was a lecture about the old competition thing - "Shawn, save this post of yours and then repost it in a year with your "new" observation."
I've taken a great deal of your advice and have oft repeated it for the benefit of others, giving you due credit for it. So, yes, there is pleasing me. I just don't like being lectured, especially on subjects like this post, the main thrust of which I viewed from the start as hypothetical. I also did view many of the responses as patronising, not least because it was assumed that fishing to me was an alien concept and that I was failing to see the similarities between one sport and another (and what do I know about competion), but also because it was assumed that I needed to be told who had won what with rollers and that I had to 'surely agree' with an arbitrary list of factors which would guarantee success with rollers on the world stage - from a guy who doesn't yet have any rollers. Sorry, Darin, but you must see where I'm coming from, here.
So, all said, you've managed to flick this wasp more than enough.
Shaun
|
J_Star
64 posts
Oct 03, 2005
5:04 AM
|
Darin, and all,
Well, I need to put my 2 cents into this, wouldn’t you introduce your fisherman friend to the roller hobby. Maybe he will enjoy it and become a master rollerman.
But I do see similarity between fishing and rollers analogy but not the same. I am also a fisherman with the boat and all the gear for Walleye mostly. In fishing you need to consider the weather (rainy, windy, sunny or cloudy), water clarity and temperature and depth. Certain times of the year, fish at certain depth and location based on water temperature and water clarity. In that, certain lures with certain colors are used for maximum catch, that if you catch any. To be a very successful Walleye fisherman on Lake Erie, you need to keep a log and note when and where you fished them during the fishing season. After a few years of doing so, then you have a pattern that you can carry from year to year with some tweaking because of the element, and always be productive. Your friend will always enjoy going fishing with you because they know you know where the fish is. The same is true for the rollers but in ways that relate to their flying and preparation to fly to put on a show. Each sport has its own secretes and the 'Know How'. If you master the 'know how', then to me you mastered the sport. That doesn't mean you will win all the time, but it means that you were acknowledged by your peers that you are in the top 5% or 10%.
You don’t have to compete to have good birds and you don’t have to be a competitor to enjoy your rollers. But competition will take you to the next level to compare what you have developed in your rollers with others. After all, we all want to have the best there is. Don’t we?
Jay
|
MCCORMICKLOFTS
173 posts
Oct 03, 2005
8:01 AM
|
My post elicted irritations back to me? Funny, you must have been the only one reading them because I sure the hell didn't..LOL (here in the USA, LOL means we are laughing, so don't think that was yelling, okay.)
When I stated "Shawn, save this post of yours and then repost it in a year with your "new" observation", that means to do just that. Why does that get your panties in an uproar? That is good, sound advice for someone who doesn't have any experience with rollers, but is being flooded with concepts and ideas. You can form any opinions and ideas you like, but check this out dude...THEY WILL CHANGE!. (oops, someone might have thought I was yelling).
This says a lot--"I also did view many of the responses as patronising, not least because it was assumed that fishing to me was an alien concept and that I was failing to see the similarities between one sport and another (and what do I know about competion), but also because it was assumed that I needed to be told who had won what with rollers and that I had to 'surely agree' with an arbitrary list of factors which would guarantee success with rollers on the world stage - from a guy who doesn't yet have any rollers."
In case the point didn't soak in, if you are going to dissect and criticize the discussed relationships in Darin's comparison between success in angling and roller flying, wouldn't your interpretation have more valididy if by chance you actually had experience with not both, but at least one of the two? That is my point Shaun. See, some of us do have experience in both, and it seems there is an overwhelming sense that they can parallel one another both in approach and in results. And then when presented with some actual competitors names who have dominated, you feel as though you were being force fed facts you didn't like the taste of.
Ah hell, this is stupid, it's like arguing with my teenage daughter.
Have fun with your rollers Shaun. I wish you all the best with them and in case you forgot to do it, save all of this and in a year or two, let's see where your opinion lies then.
I'm Done.
Brian.
|
Ballrollers
86 posts
Oct 03, 2005
9:41 AM
|
All right, now, kids. Let's get back to rollers. The simplest reason for success with rollers, I am convinced, is having those breeders in place that crank out quality performance consistently. I know that statement is overly simplistic and much depends on the family of birds, experience, knowledge, and longevity in the hobby to generate those pairs that produce. I was all excited about having a half dozen quality spinners so far. I went to Jay's (Yandle) for our club fly and he is looking at 40 or 50! And he is evaluating quality at a more critical level than I at my level of the program. In other words, he can afford to be more critical. I have said it before, but having multiple pairs of known producers puts you in the hunt consistently, and, of course, the space to house them. As the percentages of quality birds produced goes up, so does the qualilty of the whole program, and your odds in the competitions. Then it's all a matter of luck with the intangibles. That's how it looks from over here, anyway. YITS Cliff
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Oct 03, 2005 10:00 AM
|
J_Star
65 posts
Oct 03, 2005
10:02 AM
|
Cliff,
I could have not said it any better....
Jay
|
Shaun
123 posts
Oct 03, 2005
10:27 AM
|
Cliff and Jay - I'm back out of the school yard and have a question: given the luck and intangibles you mention, which are acknowledged as an inherent aspect of rollers, do you feel that real quality pairs kick out a higher proportion of good youngsters? I'm going back to the numbers game, whereby it's quite normal for only a small percentage of birds produced each year to be of superb quality. Some of the rest may pad out the kit, whilst others will be disposed of. So, do you feel that a really good quality pair kick out proportionately more quality youngsters, or simply that it's still a numbers game and you can still only expect them to kick out a fairly low percentage of crackers?
In short, do the click pairs kick out quality in the usual low numbers, or quality in higher proportions?
Shaun
|
J_Star
66 posts
Oct 03, 2005
10:41 AM
|
Shaun,
Tony put one old post of mine in the Article Gallery called 'Unpredictable Results'. Read the questions that I posted and the answers and the replays from the list at the time. Some times you will find that the mediocre pairs gives you the higher percentage of excellent rollers... Go figure...
Jay
|
Shaun
126 posts
Oct 03, 2005
11:11 AM
|
Thanks, Jay; I read the post. Two things spring to mind - first you really can't plan anything with the remotest guarantee of the results you wanted - all you can do is put the odds in your favour - and, secondly, the same questions to various roller husbandry problems go around in circles. I see as of today, some of us are discussing forthcoming winter problems with breeding and water freezing over - the same things which your post ended up discussing nearly a nearly a year ago. Doesn't time roll - I mean fly.
Shaun
|
Ballrollers
87 posts
Oct 03, 2005
3:18 PM
|
Shaun, The luck factors and intangibles that I was speaking of, in order to be competitive, are more in the area of predator attacks, wheather, timing of the competition, birds in the molt during competition, etc. that all have to fall into place and can make a significant difference in scoring, given two lofts of fairly equal quality.The guys that I know of that have proven breeders are way past any luck facors in their production. The proven pairs seem to consistently generate quality spinners, cabable of competing, 50-60% of the time or even better. In some cases it would be a surprise to even get a cull from a real quality pair. Of course, when we get into trying to approach real perfection in performance, those numbers begin to fall off. Pairs like that are not abundant, and are worth their weight in gold in my book. It may take years of working your family to produce them. And there are no absolutes. Some pairs may produce 10%, some 20%, etc. Personally, I disregard the remote possibility that a non-performing pair may be able to produce top quality performers. Sure, it can happen....but it's not something on which you and I can bet the farm at our stage of the game. I, for one, cannot take up the space or feed to keep non-performing stiffs around just because they look good or have a nice pedigree. I throw enough pairs together (that, ultimately, do not produce what I am looking for) that could qualify for that particular scenario, already. I think that is why you are getting so much coaching to let Mason assist you in pairing your birds. Why should you be resigned to make the same mistakes he did? Why not benefit from his experience with the family? Just leave it to chance???? I don't think so! YITS Cliff
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Oct 03, 2005 3:20 PM
|
Shaun
128 posts
Oct 03, 2005
11:09 PM
|
Cliff, I agree wholeheartedly. Some time ago, Graham Dexter, when he was telling me about the numbers game, made things very clear from the off. He said that it's very hard to produce really good rollers and even more difficult to produce them consistently. Clearly, one guy can produce a great young bird kit one year, then the next, maybe not so good. George has been very consistent in that respect, and it's one of the very reasons I obtained stock from him. However, he did tell me that his line is so tight that it wouldn't bother him much if any cock in his stock loft went with any hen - he'd be confident of the results. For the same reason, he said I could just let nature take its course with the ones I've got from him, when it comes to breeding, but I could also call him with the ring numbers, once they were sorted into cocks and hens, so he could make some recommendations. Trouble is, if I were currently to separate the known cocks from the rest, pending 'ideal' pairings, I'd have a huge imbalance within the available loft space, as only a handful have shown themselves to be cocks. I, therefore, need to wait a bit longer before separating them.
Trouble is with this method is that I've already got 2 or 3 pairs looking like they're ready for eggs. I'm, therefored, tempted to get a few youngsters out of the ones which have paired, just to see how they turn out. Then, once the whole loft is sorted as to cocks and hens, I can split those original pairs up if George suggests different matings. I can already see that as it's getting colder, only the hard-core, horny cocks are doing the biz, so it could be quite some time before I've actually been able to decipher which birds are which. So, I can see it's a long road.
Shaun
|
siddiqir
62 posts
Oct 07, 2005
10:21 AM
|
Lot of English here...can make a book out of this thread only. OK what is bottom line "The SECRET to SUCCESS in Rollers" are there any secrets or not?
Last Edited by siddiqir on Oct 07, 2005 12:48 PM
|
J_Star
72 posts
Oct 07, 2005
12:39 PM
|
My assessment of success is first and foremost is good and sound judgment. Know each one of your birds good. Know their characteristics, strengths and weaknesses, velocity and frequency. And then match them up according to the above and mate best to best. Breed first good batch of offsprings back to their parents to concentrate that mix of the genetic makeup. Then mate the offsprings with cousins and half broth/sis. Breed for velocity and depth will show itself.
Once you concentrate the genetics of your family, your odds will go up in your favor. And sometimes don’t be afraid to try mating some mediocre birds to see what they can give you in offsprings. What I mean is that if a bird is not so good, but its siblings are excellent, then don’t hesitate to give them a chance in the breeding loft for a season.
But it all starts with good judgment and only considering performance without any consideration to color. I would like to hear others summary if possible.
Jay
Last Edited by J_Star on Oct 07, 2005 12:41 PM
|
birdman
65 posts
Oct 07, 2005
1:32 PM
|
Good birds + Good management + Good weather + a little luck.
Any combination of 3 out of the 4 items above should enhance your chances of flying a nice kit. Sometimes luck plays the biggest part, but if you don't have good birds and good management to go along with it you shouldn't ever expect be in the top ranks.
Russ
|
George Ruiz
60 posts
Oct 07, 2005
2:04 PM
|
Hi Russ
Your answer says more than all that was written on this post although I learned alot about fishing on this post. I been fishing for over 25 years and I always thought the most important thing was to have some hooks ,lures,bait,beer, and a large body of water and I would be O.K.
Just to let those know I have cought my fair share of fish in fresh and salt water with as much as I learned on this post I think I quit my job and become a pro fisherman (LOL)
Thanks George
Last Edited by George Ruiz on Oct 07, 2005 3:08 PM
|
birdman
66 posts
Oct 07, 2005
2:09 PM
|
Hey George,
Pigeons and fishing. It doesn't get any better than this!
Pick me up when the boat is loaded!
Russ
|
nicksiders
228 posts
Oct 07, 2005
6:21 PM
|
I learned that to catch a lot of fish you have to go fishing a lot.
I have learned that for your birds to fly well they have to fly a lot.
|
spinnerdom
6 posts
Mar 18, 2006
10:29 AM
|
I APPLAUD THE FISHERMANS ARTICALE
THE TIRADE AFTER ME AND MY WIFE
OR TO FISH WIFES
MONTY AND HEINES HAVING THE SAME BIRDS HAVE SOMETHING TO DO WITH IT
MY THOUGHT 80% BIRD 20% HANDLER
|
Mount Airy Lofts
152 posts
Mar 18, 2006
7:24 PM
|
Did I miss something, I thought the Secret was in David Kowalski's books. Just joking as I can't seem to agree with much of Mr. Kowalski's writings. The poof is in the puddling as they say.
Great post guys. Just because some one can write doesn't mean he has proven out his theories. The answer lies with the guys provening out there theories year after year after year. Consistantly!!
Thor
|
spinnerdom
24 posts
Mar 19, 2006
7:28 PM
|
kowalskys book do you or did you ever measure keele or wings. weigh birds study iner eye. woke me upafter 25 yrs. measured monty birds hardesty too grovers too
my o my a lot of learning there jim 3/19/06
|
Post a Message
|
|
|