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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
Genetics Question
Genetics Question
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Alan Bliven
259 posts
Oct 18, 2005
11:59 AM
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Shaun,
Your "pure" English birds were crossed into Tipplers about the same time our "impure" American birds were crossed for colors... that was about the time of Moses.
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Alan
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Phantom1
16 posts
Oct 18, 2005
12:26 PM
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Shaun,
May I reverse a question for you? What DO you guys have over there in England? Most pictures of birs that I've seen of the English bred birds are all splashed with white. How many guys' birds have grouse legs as well?
As far as the Birmingham Roller being a "work in progress" or a "moving target" is simple. My two cents. Here in the US, the roller breeders are PROUD!!! Some are proud of their accomplishments with the breed, whereas the next guy will jump on him for not doing things their way. Or one guy is flying birds that are, to their knowledge PURE Pensom birds, and another is flying Laven or Baker birds. Whatever the case, it is my opinion that the ideal of the Birmingham Roller long ago disappeared from the US. We now have well over 100 different families that each require different training, different feed, different fly times, etc. In my mind, that doesn't constitute a breed at all. Going back to the dog anology that's so common, if I breed German Shepards, and sell one or two - does that new owner have to feed that dog any differently than those he already had? No, it's still a German Shepard. In other words, we've got 100 families that are basically breeds, with amillion different people striving for excellence in as many different directions you can think of - and they're all 100% right. Talk about a moving target....
Eric
Last Edited by Phantom1 on Oct 18, 2005 12:57 PM
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Phantom1
17 posts
Oct 18, 2005
12:28 PM
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Alan,
Seriously? Those tipplers must be something special! I read that they were used, along with Chinese Owls for speed, in racing homers. That's why, from time to time, folks get frilled racers.
Wow - small world!
Eric
Last Edited by Phantom1 on Oct 18, 2005 12:29 PM
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Slobberknocker
54 posts
Oct 18, 2005
12:35 PM
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Shaun,
Do the guys over there in the UK argue as much as the US boys do?
Bob
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www.slobberknockerlofts.com
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Shaun
138 posts
Oct 18, 2005
12:40 PM
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Alan, our rollers right up to the 1950s were most certainly crossed into all sorts of things - some flyers even carried on a bit longer than that. But, to all intents and purposes, further experimentation with the Birmingham Roller ended a long time ago.
If what you're saying is that the US is no different in this respect, all I can say is this view is in sharp contradiction to many posts I've read. For every guy who says that colour was introduced 50-75 years ago, there's another who asserts that cross-breeding continues right now, with the result still being described as a Birmingham Roller.
If that's not the case and your projects go back many decades and then stopped, then I agree and can't see how that's any different to what we in the UK were getting up to that long ago. It's an interesting point. So, is this where the differences lie - ie, with one side feeling that the cross-breeding ended long enough ago not to matter, but with the other side convinced that it's still going on today?
Shaun
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Phantom1
18 posts
Oct 18, 2005
12:44 PM
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Shaun,
It most certainly is still going on today. That's a conflict that many of us have. Especially when labeled as doing such and having no intent of ever doing so.
Eric
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Slobberknocker
55 posts
Oct 18, 2005
12:45 PM
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Question to you Shaun and anyone else here.....
Is the Birmingham Roller is the only breed of Pigeon that "rolls over backward with inconceivable rapidity like a spinning ball"?
If so, then regardless of the physical appearances, any bird that can do this would be a Birmingham Roller, right?
Bob
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www.slobberknockerlofts.com
Last Edited by Slobberknocker on Oct 18, 2005 12:46 PM
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Shaun
139 posts
Oct 18, 2005
1:05 PM
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Eric, grouse leg birds in the UK are perfectly acceptable as they go back decades, along with non-grouses. However, they've always remained in the minority (I have just one out of 40 odd). It's a bit like bull-eyed birds - we really don't give a stuff about fluffy bits on the legs. As for the predominance of white, I don't get what you mean; I don't know about you guys, but white has always been a regular feature of our rollers. In fact, it's the way that white combines with the other standard colours which often gives such a myriad of pleasing patterns.
Eric, as you mentioned the German Shepherd, I'll counter with the English Bulldog, a breed which has also existed rather a long time. It is revered to the extent that a pup here costs around $3,000. The breed standard is such that only a very small number of colours are acceptable. If someone tried to show a bulldog in any different colour, he/she would be laughed out of the show ring. Again, the standard was reached donkey's years ago and it seems there hasn't been any need to change it.
Bob, UK flyers tend to argue about the management of the roller, in terms of how good one guy's birds and/or methods are compared to another's. The subject of colour simply doesn't arise.
Shaun
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Phantom1
19 posts
Oct 18, 2005
1:28 PM
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Shaun,
On the English Bulldog analogy - I get what you're saying. But even if someone got laughed at for trying to show a color that was not recognized by the standard for that breed, could it still not be just as good or better than a brindle? The English Bulldog has a written standard that dictates what colors are acceptable. Do you know of such a comparible resource for the BR?
Whatever the case, my neighbor just recently acquired two English Bulldogs and he's feeding them the same way as the breeder would have. Under the guidance of the breeder of course. Oh, by the way, the two dogs he has are about 2 years apart in age and came from two different breeders. The only difference is their color. Same dog, different families. You're just not going to get off that easy here in the US with these birds.
As for grouse-legged birds, the bird could roll circles around what I've got in my clean-legged birds....I'd still look at it with criticizing eyes as a cross breed. I'm just that way. There again, the BR standard that we have a hard time adhering to, makes no mention of what's acceptable in that area. It always goes back to what Pensom wrote about a bird doing backflips, yadda, yadda, yadda.
Regarding the dominant white factor in the English bred birds, that's all I was trying to point out. It's a common trait over there, whereas more self birds are common over here in the competition guys' lofts. Maybe we're both breeding for color clear across an ocean from each other LOL!
Eric
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Shaun
140 posts
Oct 18, 2005
1:34 PM
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Bob, I think you know that the Birmingham Roller wasn't just about the spinning ball thing - in fact, Pensom nicked that analogy from someone else's witterings many years before. It was more than that - the sum of the parts, if you like. It was largely about a large group of roller keepers - of which Pensom was just one - concentrated around particular areas of England (actually, there were a number, but Birmingham stuck in the imagination).
Surely, it's stretching things to suggest that any bird which spins backwards, etc, etc, can be considered a Birmingham Roller. It just sounds like hanging onto the coat-tails of a particular heritage without the intention of adhering to what made it that heritage in the first place.
Shaun
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Shaun
141 posts
Oct 18, 2005
1:48 PM
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Eric, point taken about the written standard. Let's be honest, rollers aren't that big in the overall scheme of things for that to happen. Perhaps that's why, for many fanciers in the US, roller 'development' is something of a moving target.
Am I being too simplistic, then, in suggesting that the arguments which continually repeat themselves, in your neck of the woods, are based on the simple difference of opinion between those who feel there is no particular roller standard to adhere to and those who do?
Shaun
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Shaun
142 posts
Oct 18, 2005
2:01 PM
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Scott, I hear what you say, but it always appears to me from this forum in particular, that you're in the minority - you know, the dinosaur purist. I'm glad you actually speak for many.
Anyhow, Scott, before I forget, I've just taken four of Dave Moseley's late-breds from him - about 6-8 weeks old. I needed to settle them quickly, as the guy who looked after my birds last time managed to let some of them out and I'm going away soon, so he might do it again. I, therefore, settled them within 3 days and they're now flying with the others. Compared to my Masons, they're ugly little buggers (hey, it's in the genes), but much tamer than the Masons and with so much character - one daft sod takes corn from my mouth. I love 'em. Can't wait to compare them with the others.
Shaun
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motherlodelofts
351 posts
Oct 18, 2005
2:04 PM
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Cliff you wrote :
(You asked, "Is the mongrel blood washed out ot a degree when bred strictly for performance and they revert back?" I'll tell Joe Bob you asked during his 20-bird fly, and get his response. But if they can still produce a blue lace or an andy or an indigo, from the bird, what do you think???? And of course he claims not to be a color breeder. He is not. Though the base of his family has all the modifiers whose presence in the breed you are so concerned about. (Again, see my post above about the definition of a color breeder) You asked about khaki, the dilute of blue. It's been in the breed for decades and in Pensom's birds. I am sure it was a random occurrence for Joe Bob, and not a "project".)
Thanks Cliff, please do ask him that question exactly the way it is written (why did his kit consist of normal colors except for one) I think that it is a good question , you guys can learn alot from him. of coarse there would be a whole lot more culling going on.
And the not bringing in and pairing of birds for the purpose of color would change the entire dynamics of some of these guys birds. Culls should culled not sold or bred due to the color genetic makeup of what it carries.
Which brings us full circle to Kennys original point.
Most roller guys use the color of a bird strictly as identifing the bird and it rarely goes beyond that. We just don't care because for us it means nothing, but for some color breeding is the hobby as you can see.
Shaun , There are some Indigos and Andulutions birds that can roll as well as any . That is when bred normally strictly for performance and not for color, that is if they are out of the right stock from the right breeders.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Oct 18, 2005 2:21 PM
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Phantom1
20 posts
Oct 18, 2005
2:13 PM
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Scott,
I've always been particular about grouse-legged birds, booted birds, feathers on their toes and skip the leg altogether. I hate it, and cull for it. I won't feed it. That may very well make me the biggest hypocrite, as I will feed something that has a pretty paint job (minus any abnormal growth of feathering). That to me...is a cross bred throw back that I don't want in my family of rollers. So is Recessive Red for that matter.
Shaun,
It goes WAY deeper than an absence of a standard. If there were one developed today...well let's be honest...at this point of the breed's development there will never be one. It would be like someone showing up with a purple English Bulldog and, though be it - it's an English Bulldog in every since of the standard, the standard would remain unchanged. I can see the pros and cons in that, but it is what it is. A big PRO is that, although someone may have a purple dog, it doesn't make it a English Bulldog according to the written and accepted standard, and it should not be changed to include that one dog. But if someone had 100 of them, then things should be looked at. Just like the Women's Rights Movement...if it was just one lady asking to vote, I don't think it would've mattered much. But a vast group of extremely pissed of women - well we gotta look at things.
Eric
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Ballrollers
93 posts
Oct 18, 2005
3:33 PM
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Shaun, You asked why color modifiers in rollers are a non-entity in England. My guess is that it is related to the small size of the roller community and the fear of the potential repercussions from his friends that could result from thinking outside the box and straying from the conventional in England. The US is much larger and diverse, already, which would also play a role. Perhaps your forefathers simply did not have access to the rollers with the modifying genes already in place like we did here in the US. I do not think the BR is a moving target. One man, and a few friends, in 1980, simply took on the challenge of including color modifying genes in quality performing Birminghams. They, too, have faced the criticism and judgement of the narrow-minded, as well as the political crap, and have virtually backed away from the sport as a result. The family has caught on, however, and is more popular than ever, whether the breeder is a color breeder or a performance breeder.
Scott said, "What you have here is simply a small minority trying to justify color-breeding by throwing around other people's names." The fact is that what you really have here is a small, but vocal minority (of the hundreds of breeders using this family) who breed for performance and who are resisting the disrespecting of their family and being called color breeders and mongrel breeders based solely on the color of the birds and the ignorance of the name-caller. So when a roller man wins an NBRC Fall Fly or a World Cup using this family, you can bet the name-callers will be reminded of the facts. My beef is with a roller man who would ridicule another roller man in a public forum, questioning whether he could possibly be breeding for performance because of the color of a bird that he posts, only to have that man win his region in the Fall Fly, which the name-caller failed to do! That is the bullshit that has to stop. A roller man deserves from his peers, the common courtesy of the question, "Do you breed for color or for performance"; a perfectly legit question, before he is damned and ridiculed in public based on the family or the color of his birds. Oh, by the way Scott, I appreciate your acknowledgement of the reality of the situation in your statement, "There are some Indigos and Andalusians that can roll as well as any..."; and opals, and reduced, and almonds....LOL LOL! YITS Cliff
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Alan Bliven
260 posts
Oct 18, 2005
4:12 PM
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Shaun,
Well, the bottom line is it really don't matter if cross breeding is going on today as long as the end results are to produce high quality performance birds. And we have seen first hand that the World Cup winner was using these pretty birds in his winning kit. So, that should be the end of all arguements.
That means our Rollers no longer have to look like dwarf Barn Pigeons... They can be pretty and have great performance as well.
Alan
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motherlodelofts
352 posts
Oct 18, 2005
4:27 PM
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Cliff the fact is JoeBob is the first and only to have any real success with these birds other than local flys (and that was done with several families of which had no strange blood) .
And yes it is due to burying the effects of the mongral blood which is why his team was all normal colors other than one according to him.
Cliff the mongral blood ruined whatever it was bred to but was able to be brought back to various degrees by the Thompson/Pensom birds and in JoeBobs case a few other families of pure Birminghams (his words) .
Jay got a taste of success with the 11 bird , but the 11 bird aint the 20 by a long shot (ask Kenny)
The people that you bring up from color breeding mongrals in the 80's backed off of the sport because they didn't compete outside of thier local and "were" frowned on for mongralizing the breed as they should have been.
Again Cliff , why was the W/C kit all normal colors except one ? You don't find that interesting ?
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Oct 18, 2005 10:13 PM
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motherlodelofts
354 posts
Oct 18, 2005
5:21 PM
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Allan if you cannot see the beauty of a first class bird on the perch or in a showcage than you truelly don't understand the breed, the feather color has absolutly nothing to do with it.
It is in the athletic type, the athletic balance and the balanced proportions of the bird from head to toe, it is in the confidence that the bird radiates and the look of inteligence, such birds don't cower and they will look you sqaure in the eye.
In the air, for birds like this that have the motor, the above is what brings it all together and be able to handle to motor
These type of birds you will not find on eggbid.
Sorry but feather color has nothing to do with the beauty of these birds at all , at least not for me.
Scott
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Phantom1
22 posts
Oct 18, 2005
6:17 PM
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Scott,
I've seen different families react different ways. It sounds like, if you're describing your personal family, that you've got quite a bunch! My birds, however, are always bouncing off the walls trying to get out to fly. I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing. They don't get thrown in a show pen and looked at as such, so I don't have any need for them to be calm, cool, and collected in the kit box. Just open the door and let'em go!
And hey - you've gotta like what you feed man. We've all said that before.
Eric
Last Edited by Phantom1 on Oct 18, 2005 6:18 PM
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Alan Bliven
261 posts
Oct 18, 2005
7:40 PM
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Scott,
I understand that and agree with you. But the accusation made here is that a pretty colored bird can't show heart sitting on a perch and can't perform like a blue check, just because he's got a pretty paint job. That I can't agree with. Scott, it's been proven they can.
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Alan
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nicksiders
245 posts
Oct 18, 2005
8:26 PM
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Well................uh
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Mongrel Lofts
47 posts
Oct 18, 2005
9:04 PM
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Shaun,
Color is not about birds bred 75 years ago. Go get the NBRC tapes on genetic's put out by the colored Carolinas in the 1990's.. On this tape, they talk about breeding rollers on other breeds to get a color, factor or pattern then breeding the young for five generation until they get the color,factor or pattern they are breeding for and roller type. At this point they start to fly the young and breed for the roll again. The Carolina birds roll because of the Lloyd Thompson/Pensom rollers.. Loyd was one of the greatest Birmingham roller breeders of his time Shaun. He flew with Monty Nieble and flew outstanding kits full of Birmingham rollers. Lloyd had Pure Birmingham rollers Shaun, not Mongrels. Do you think the homers and other breeds they crossed on the pure Birminghams made them roll better? Man, just think how great them old Birmingham roller must have been to put some roll in the cross breds. Sheeesh what a waste of good rollers.. Can you imagine the quality of roll that would have come out of the Carolina's if men would have bred for pure roll, instead of crossing great birds on other breeds for pretty colors. We would all be going to the Carolina's for rollers insted of for colored birds..
Truth is, 10 years ago when I moved here. Dallas Smith
had birds from James Turner and Doug Brown. Dallas was breeding rollers on pheasant pigeons to follow in the foot steps of his mentors Turner and Tony Roberts. This is how you make rare Colored rollers!This is how all them rare colored birds got their start.. By being crossed on other breeds.. And most of it is recent, the last 10 to 30 years.
Now Cliff please quit lying with this 75 years ago stuff. Are some of the colors that old, maybe. But Rollers are and have been crossed in recent years to make colors, patterns and factors and you dam well know it. Turner and Roberts both have made crossing much more recent than this and you know it. Tell the truth, the truth will set you free.. Milky, toy stencil, pencil and the list goes on and on..You can find very close up Mongrels in the roller world in the US if you know where to look..Is Tony Roberts 75? Was he crossing the Thompson/pensom Birmingham rollers on other breeds while he was in diapers to get the rare colors ? Ask those guys them selves if they ever crossed breeds? Ask Ellis McDonald if he knows of any crossing that was done in the Carolinas to other breeds of pigeons for color on rollers.
Shaun, you will never hear the truth about cross breeding and freaky colors on rollers from these guys who breed the Mongrels. They have an agenda to promote and make the Mongrels seam like they have always been around and are the same as the Birmingham roller. They say things like, all rollers are a cross. There is no such thing as a Birmingham roller. Its a description, not a breed. They have no respect for the breed or its black country heritage..
Cliff is new to rollers and don't have a clue what he is talking about.He is a wet behind the ears beginner who just came out of the colored closet screaming. He screams loud to cover up for his lack of understanding of what has really went on to produce the birds they call rare colored rollers in the Carolinas. Don't kid yourself men, there are many guys out there that are still crossing breeds today. Jay Yandel told us of some crosses he was making just a year or two ago, to create a line of milky rollers. Ask Jay about this Cliff. Wait, I bet you already know about it. You just decieve the men on this list about 75 years ago and now they are all pure Birmingham rollers again but with milky factors from an ice pigeon. Not your fellow color breeders, but the new guys that don't know you speak with forked tongue.
Shaun, there are still many many guys flying pure Birmingham rollers in the USA. Because of the deception of what was done to the breed by these guys who think pretty feathers are more important than the breed, many new comers are very confused. They buy into the lie.. You tell a lie long enough and loud enough, many will think its the truth. Sad to say, at this point and time, this is the condition we find our selves in here in the US.
For some odd reason here in the US Shaun, we have always had some cross breeders who want to improve the Birmingham roller by crossing them on their breed of choice. The show roller men crossed the Birmingham on holly croppers and modenas to make better body's and bigger heads for show. They said you could breed for show and performance. Kind of like these guys, color and performance. They came up with the dual purpose roller, champion in the air and champion in the show pen. This breed is now called the NO purpose roller and few have one. Ruined for the show and for flying. The show guys have made a bird out of the Birmingham roller that can barely fly.
One can only hope, that these new colored Mongrels will go the same way, before we no longer have any Birmingham rollers left in the US that are not cross bred Mongrels..
Boy I hate this topic Shaun. It always cost me to say what I believe is the truth on this matter. What I have personally seen the last 30 years.
Yes, some of the Mongrels can roll well. The andy's and opals would be the two that you see a spin from most. Are they better, No.. Why the cross, Colors, factors and patterns on feathers. Is it over the crossing? NO, not as long as there is a pigeon that can be crossed to a roller to make it look different from the Birmingham roller breed standard colors.. Are the same guys crossing anymore. I don't know. I doubt it. There are others following in their foot steps.
This is my last post on this topic. This is my opinion and you can be sure to hear many more from others after this one Shaun,, LOL,, Mongrel Lofts
PS. go to the pigeon genetics list,, really just a word they use for cross breeding breeds for colors, factors and patterns,, Check it out, you will get a clue how really deep this goes.. Its not just rollers that get crossed over here.. I think the goal is to put every color, factor and pattern on all breeds.Why screw up one breed when you can do them all.. A all colors fit all breeds type deal I think.. LOL
Last Edited by Mongrel Lofts on Oct 18, 2005 9:46 PM
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nicksiders
248 posts
Oct 18, 2005
9:24 PM
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If you like spiked tea that is OK by me. I have no appreciation for it and I don't care how hard a flyer works to overcome it. He should have not put it there to begin with and would not have to work so hard to breed it out.
"Color modifiers" is a strange way to cover what has taken place. It sounds very official..................."color modifiers"...
Modified rollers...................hmmm?
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Shaun
143 posts
Oct 19, 2005
12:08 AM
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Kennie, that's a depressing picture you paint. It seems to me that the concept of roller heritage is lost on much of the US (despite many conveniently regurgitating Pensom philosophy when it suits them). From Alan's post "it really don't matter if cross breeding is going on today as long as the end results are to produce high quality performance birds." I think that says it all - "We can do what the hell we like."
Well, let's not forget that this forum is supposedly about the Birmingham Roller. It seems a bit of a cheek making statements to the effect that anything can be crossed with anything, to achieve whatever it is you're looking for, but then wonder why those like Kennie and Scott get so agitated. For many, the Birmingham Roller is a definite standard which has continued for generations and I for one applaud those who aren't trying to fix something which ain't broke.
Shaun
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J_Star
81 posts
Oct 19, 2005
5:18 AM
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WOW... That is heavy!!!
Please, help me understand...Why do I hear that allot of BR breeders and flyers keeping Oriental Rollers around? I heard that fanciers like Don Oullete (spelling?) developed his Almonds from crossing BR to OR. Does that still go around in other lofts? Just wondering?
Shaun, here in the US, what other have failed to bring out, is people want to have things better than their friend and neighbors even at the cost of living from month to month or on credit cards. The same is true for the BR. Since performance was the thing that fanciers’ pursuit to better the breed, other fanciers wanted to have the best looking and the best performing rollers that no one else have so that they would have the bragging rights and be better than others. Also, here in the US people get board easily with things and start modifying and changing things to bring some excitement to the things they do. Look at our cars for example. People spend about $50K for an SUV and another $10K for accessories just to make it stand out and look different than the other same brand SUVs. Other reason is, the US is made of a melting pot, so why is not the BR? We live in a culture that don’t fix anything, just throw it a way and buy another. Same with BR, if you ruined them, just get red of them and buy another batch. We waste allot in this country, just because we don’t care and we have no appreciation to a long history of heritage, just because our culture dictates that on us. And I could go on and on… This is just the way I see it, so why do we need to keep the BR pure?
I think that they are pretty the way they are, and any modification is unnecessary. But at the same time not against it, for one, is because I can not do anything about it and can not stop it. As always beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Thanks.
Jay
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Shaun
146 posts
Oct 19, 2005
6:48 AM
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Jay, that's the most eloquent description of the state of play that I'm ever likely to see. Thank you for your honesty. Truth is, we in the UK, import an awful lot of US culture and it can drive some people crazy - you know, those who feel uncomfortable with today's throwaway society.
Culture and heritage are massive parts of most countries. I suppose it's why we still have a Royal Family. So, in effect, it means that with the roller guys in the UK, our whole 'roller souls' are clearly in a different place to many in the US. We simply wish to preserve our heritage - something which has always been dear to us.
So, as you might imagine, I feel more of a kindred spirit with the guys who don't bugger around with the roller, than those who do.
Shaun
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Phantom1
26 posts
Oct 19, 2005
6:55 AM
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KGB - a point of clarification for you and everyone. Milky is not Ice. Ice is Ice. Milky is a modifier that can be on top of any color or additional modifier such as Indigo or Opal.
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Ballrollers
94 posts
Oct 19, 2005
7:58 AM
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Well, once again we have reached the point of impass in this discussion. The above post from Billings contains more lies, distortions, and false accusations than any one opinion ever posted on the lists, I believe. When the facts don't agree with your agenda, you just stoop to calling the man a liar and to making completely false accusations against well-respected guys like Jay Yandle and attempting to minimize his win (who, by the way has no breed outcrossed in ANY of his family of birds for those of you who want the truth) I expected more from a man with master flyer points, but then that does not make the man does it? I guess I could go on countering each bullshit statement you made with more facts, and you could go on calling me a liar, but then that wouldn't really get us anywhere, I don't believe, any more than Brian McCormick's effort did to set the facts straight. My facts are based on personal observations of the performance and handling of the birds and hours of discussions and interviews with the men who created this family of birds, not from personal imaginings from some shack in the wilderness. Yeah, I'm new to rollers, KGB. I only got my first rollers in 1963. I have only raised American Rollers, pedigree Plonas and Pensoms, and the James Turner family. The quality of the performance of this family exceeds any I have ever owned or seen. Thus, I have in the past few years decided to engage the organization of the hobby and its competitions. Yep, I'm done with it too. YITS Cliff
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Mongrel Lofts
50 posts
Oct 20, 2005
6:44 PM
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false accusations against well-respected guys like Jay Yandle and attempting to minimize his win (who, by the way has no breed out crossed in ANY of his family of birds for those of you who want the truth)
Cliff,
Two questions for you mate. Your telling me Jay Yandel was lying to all of us on Earls list when he told us about his Milky cross project? Are you telling everyone on this list, that Jay Yandel never crossed rollers to try and make his own milky factor rollers?
Cliff, are you saying in the last 20 years, Tony Roberts and James Turner, never crossed rollers on any other breeds to get rare colors, factors and patterns?
I await your answers Cliff. We all know all these men have rollers that are not so crossed up or they would not have roll. But Cliff, Have all of these men crossed other breeds on rollers? This is the question!!! Have all three of these men crossed rollers on other breeds? Mongrel Lofts
PS. Jay is a great flyer and a good roller man. His wins are much deserved. Jay is much more forth coming and honest about what he does Cliff than you are..
Last Edited by Mongrel Lofts on Oct 20, 2005 6:49 PM
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Mongrel Lofts
52 posts
Oct 20, 2005
7:12 PM
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Bob,
Of course not. If you got a bird from Jay and he told you it rolled well. I'm sure it did just that. You guys crack me up. I have snever said a bad word about Jay,, You just want to say I did. I just said Jay crossed a roller on another breed to make milky rollers. This he told Me and many others on Earls list. You and Cliff both keep trying to say things that are not said. Go read the post and see if you can find where I say what you acusse me of. You and CLiff both never adress what I say, you just put words in my mouth because you can't handle the TRUTH!! Mongrel Lofts
PS. Bob, Thanks for at least you being willing to say Turner and Roberts crossed rollers,, Cliff Has often even said this was not a fact.
Last Edited by Mongrel Lofts on Oct 20, 2005 7:16 PM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
513 posts
Oct 21, 2005
4:41 AM
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Hey Kenny.I see that the Fall Fly is over for you too.Now you have time to agitate again.LOL.
I heard on another List that you had started your own Forum about Rollers.I don't suppose I would qualify to be on it would I? David
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Mongrel Lofts
53 posts
Oct 21, 2005
5:45 AM
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Hey Kenny.I see that the Fall Fly is over for you too.Now you have time to agitate again.LOL. NOT HERE TO AGITATE, ONLY TO GIVE THE VIEW OF THE BIRMINGHAM ROLLER BREEDER..PLENTY ON HERE SHARING THE RARE COLORED ROLLER POINT OF VIEW.
I heard on another List that you had started your own Forum about Rollers.I don't suppose I would qualify to be on it would I? David
David,
The list I started is a Birmingham roller list, not a roller list... You wouldn't be interested. The list was started just for Birmingham roller breeders so we could talk about rollers without having to defend the breed agianst cross breeding. We just wanted a place were every time the word color came up, Cross breeding Birmingham rollers wasn't defended. Just a place for a few Birmingham roller breeders David, kind of the flip side of the coin as to what you guys have over there on Slobberknockers colored roller site.. I wouldn't fit in over there very well would I? The cross breeding for color improves the Birmingham roller view is just what I created my list to keep away from David. Its a safe place to talk about breeding and bettering the Birmingham roller, not all rollers.. Mongrel Lofts
Last Edited by Mongrel Lofts on Oct 21, 2005 6:02 AM
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Ballrollers
105 posts
Oct 21, 2005
5:46 AM
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Ken, Thank you for acknowledging Jay's accomplishments and his wins. He deserves your respect for that. Now if we can just get YOU to stop putting words in MY mouth and stop misquoting me to suit your agenda. I never said James Turner or Jay never tried to outcross another breed onto a roller. I said just the opposite and, in fact, I put it in print for the entire hobby to read in my NBRC article about Turner. Indeed, he did make some attempts to outcross. What I did say, and in fact what is the truth, is that both Turner and Yandle culled every bird that resulted from those out-crosses. There is no blood in their families today as a result of those outcrosses. (I have not discussed the issue, specifically, with Tony, so I cannot say, with any degree of accuracy, what he has done.) And that is the important fact here. You keep reporting and imply that these guys are outcrossing on an ongoing basis to maintain the color modifying genes. I have reported that this is pure bullshit. The color genes in their families have been in the rollers for 50-75 years and that is what was used to develope the family of rollers that James Turner, Don Greene, John Castro, Jay, Joe Bob, Alex Hamilton, Dave Strait, myself and multitudes of others are competing and winning with at all levels of competition, since Joe Roe's win back in the early 90s. That is what matters. I couldn't care less what side projects they dabbled with along the way. That is irrelevant to the blood in their families today. Hell, we have all tried things with rollers in subfamilies that just didn't work out so they were culled. You can try to put me down and distort the truth all you like, Kenny, but it does not alter the facts. In fact, I will always be the guy right here in your face to correct every one of your distortions and false accusations that you make in oder to further your purist agenda. You can count on it! Haven't you noticed that you don't hear from any of us on the lists about this issue until YOU start the crap?! Why don't you just get off it? Talk about something important for a change in your posts. With your experience in rollers, you have so much more worthwhile information to share with us all that we would like to hear from you, aside from this crap! YITS Cliff
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
515 posts
Oct 21, 2005
9:24 AM
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Kenny.Thought I would ask anyway.LOL. Must not be much to talk about on your list lately. David
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Double D
42 posts
Oct 21, 2005
6:02 PM
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Something comes to mind. Maybe it won't ever happen. However, with all of the tempers flaring and comments being made does it concern any of you that at some point, one of you might be judging the other person's birds in a competition. KGB, I don't know if you judge now but you obviously have the knowledge to be able to do so in the future if employment or something like that prevents it now. If you were assigned to the area where one of these color breeders live and you had to judge them, would you do it?
KGB, I don't know if your forum is open to newbies who want to do it right but I'd love some more roller material to learn from. Thanks!
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Mongrel Lofts
54 posts
Oct 21, 2005
7:25 PM
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You keep reporting and imply that these guys are out crossing on an ongoing basis to maintain the color modifying genes. ( NO CLIFF, I DON'T SAY THESE GUYS ARE CROSSING ON AN ON GOING BASIS. I JUST SAID IN ANOTHER POST, I DON'T KNOW IF THEY ARE STILL DOING IT, BUT MANY ARE AND FOLLOW IN THEIR FOOT STEPS. AS TAUGHT BY THEM ON THE NBRC TAPES. I have reported that this is pure bullshit. The color genes in their families have been in the rollers for 50-75 years and that is what was used to develop the family of rollers that James Turner, Don Greene, John Castro, Jay, Joe Bob, Alex Hamilton, Dave Strait, myself and multitudes of others are competing and winning with at all levels of competition, since Joe Roe's win back in the early 90's. ( OK CLIFF, RUN BY US ONE MORE TIME THE COLOR FACTORS AND MODIFIERS THAT THESE MEN HAVE IN THEIR BIRDS THAT HAVE BEEN IN THEM FOR 75 YEARS..YOUR TELLING EVERYONE ON THIS LIST, THAT THE ONLY COLORS FACTORS AND PATTENS DAVE STRAIGHT, TONY ROBERTS, BOB MCGUAM, JAMES TURNER AND YOUR SELF BREED FROM, HAVE BEEN IN ROLLERS FOR 50 YEARS OR BETTER? YOU SWEAR TO THIS? DO ANY OF YOU HAVE TOY STENCIL IN YOUR LOFTS? HOW ABOUT MILKY?YOU KEEP TRYING TO ACT LIKE THE ONLY GENES IN THESE BIRDS ARE THE 50 TO 75 YEARS OLD CROSSES.
That is what matters. I couldn't care less what side projects they dabbled with along the way. That is irrelevant to the blood in their families today.(NO, IT IS RELEVANT!!!! YOU JUST HOPE IF YOU KEEP SAYING IT IS IRRELEVANT, IT WILL BE WHAT OTHERS THINK. YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IS OR ISN'T PUT IN AND LEFT IN THEM BIRDS. WHEN A CROSS TOPPING MAY HAVE OCCURED FROM A PROJECT BIRD OR USED..
IF I WAS LOOKING FOR SEED STOCK. MEANING THE LINE OF BIRDS I PLANNED TO SPEND THE REST OF MY LIFE LINE BREEDING AND IN BREEDING TO MAKE A FAMILY.. I WOULD WANT TO KNOW HOW MANY OTHER BREEDS WERE CROSSED INTO THE BIRDS I WAS BUYING THE LAST 2O OR 30 YEARS. FROM GUYS WILLING TO CROSS BREEDS, YOU CAN NEVER REALLY KNOW THIS FOR SURE.. EVEN IF I DIDN'T CARE ABOUT CROSS BREEDING 75 YEARS AGO. IF A MAN'S STOCK WAS MADE WITH PLAYING WITH CROSS BREEDING ON OTHER BREEDS OF PIGEONS, THAT INFORMATION WOULD BE RELEVANT) Hell, we have all tried things with rollers in subfamilies that just didn't work out so they were culled. ( KEY HERE CLIFF, ROLLER FAMILLIES NOT OTHER BREEDS OF BIRDS BRED ON ROLLERS,, HUGE MASSIVE DIFFERANCE!!)You can try to put me down and distort the truth all you like, Kenny, but it does not alter the facts.( THAT RUNS BOTH WAYS, YOU CAN TWIST AND DENY THE FACTS ALL YOU LIKE, BUT THE ROLLERS HAVE BEEN CROSSED AND NOT 75 YEARS AGO.. FACT!!!!! In fact, I will always be the guy right here in your face to correct every one of your distortions and false accusations that you make in oder to further your purist agenda. You can count on it! ( I WILL ALWAYS BE HERE TO TELL THE TRUTH AND SHOW THE TAPES OF WHAT THE CROSS BREEDERS OF ROLLERS HAVE REALLY DONE TO THE BREED BIRMINGHAM ROLLER IN THE COLORED CAROLINA'S USING THEIR OWN TAPES AND COLOR OF THEIR BIRDS THAT LOOK MORE LIKE A SWALLOW THAN A ROLLER. TO PROVE IT CLIFF.NO MATTER HOW YOU TRY TO MAKE IT NOT SO, IT IS SO! THE COLORED CAROLINAS ARE FAMOUS FOR CROSSING THE ROLLERS ON ALL SORTS OF BREEDS OF PIGEONS FOR COLOR, FACTORS AND PATTERNS. ) Haven't you noticed that you don't hear from any of us on the lists about this issue until YOU start the crap?! ( NO, I NOTICE IF THE WORD GENETICS IN ROLLERS OR COLOR IS USED , IT's ALWAYS USED TO TALK ABOUT CROSS BRED COLOR IN ROLLERS, NOT ROLL!!!! IF YOU TALK ABOUT WHAT THE COLOR IS, OR WHERE IT CAME FROM. SWALLOW, ICE PIGEON, ORIENTAL FRILL, SWIFT OR WHAT EVER OTHER NON FLYING OR ROLLING BREED. YOU GUYS START A WAR, BECAUSE YOU DONT WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW AND THINK ABOUT WHAT RARE COLOR REALLY MEANS,, MONGREL CROSS BREDS FROM OTHER BREEDS ONTO ROLLERS JUST FOR COLORS. ) Why don't you just get off it? ( GLADLY, JUST AS SOON AS YOU GUYS RUN OUT OF WIND. LOL )Talk about something important for a change in your posts.( TO ME, CROSSING THE BIRMINGHAM ROLLER ON OTHER BREEDS AND RUINING IT, IS IMPORTANT. NEW PEOPLE TO THE BREED, SHOULD KNOW WHAT RARE COLOR IS AND WHERE IT COMES FROM. THEY SHOULD AT LEAST KNOW WHAT THEY ARE GETTING AND HAVE A CHOICE TO GET CROSS BREDS OR BIRMINGHAM'S. DON'T YOU THINK? EVEN IF YOU DISAGREE WITH MY POINT OF VIEW, DON'T YOU THINK THE NEW COMER SHOULD KNOW BOTH SIDES? GO INTO GETTING HIS BIRDS WITH HIS EYES WIDE OPEN AND WITH THE KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT HE IS GETTING. HEARING FROM BOTH SIDES IS IMPORTANT, DON'T YOU THINK CLIFF?) With your experience in rollers, you have so much more worthwhile information to share with us all that we would like to hear from you, aside from this crap! YITS Cliff ( CLIFF, QUIT FALLING ALL OVER YOURSELF EVERY TIME THE WORD CROSS BREEDING FOR COLOR IS MENTIONED. ITS A FACT. IT SHOULDN'T BOTHER YOU IF YOUR COMFORTABLE WITH IT. IF OTHERS ARE COMFORTABLE WITH BIRDS THAT ARE CROSS BRED FOR COLOR, THEY WILL HAVE THEM. I JUST THINK THEY SHOULD KNOW BOTH SIDES, NOT JUST YOUR 75 YEARS AGO GOOFY TWIST! THATS ALL CLIFF, BOTH SIDES NEED TO BE SEEN AND HEARD.. MONGREL LOFTS
Last Edited by Mongrel Lofts on Oct 22, 2005 4:04 AM
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Mongrel Lofts
55 posts
Oct 21, 2005
7:52 PM
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Something comes to mind. Maybe it won't ever happen. However, with all of the tempers flaring and comments being made does it concern any of you that at some point, one of you might be judging the other person's birds in a competition. KGB, I don't know if you judge now but you obviously have the knowledge to be able to do so in the future if employment or something like that prevents it now. If you were assigned to the area where one of these color breeders live and you had to judge them, would you do it?
KGB, I don't know if your forum is open to newbies who want to do it right but I'd love some more roller material to learn from. Thanks!
DD,
I have wondered if this is the reason I wasn't offered the judging spot in the finals after Joe Emberton turned it down. Joe was the 20 bird champ, and I was the 11 bird winner. It was offered to Joe as it should have been, the 20 bird is the big boyz fly but I would have thought if he couldn't do it, I would have at least been offered the oportunity. That is kind of what we fly for..
I probably couldn't have done it anyway, but I do wonder if the reason it wasn't offered to me was due to my stand on cross breeding the Birmingham roller.. I do wonder if my willingness to stand up for the breed, cut me out of the running to be the finals judge. I guess it really don't matter one way or the other. Anything worth standing up for, is going to have a price to pay.. I decided I was willing to pay that price a long time ago.. Mongrel Lofts
DD,
write me personaly Extravelocity95@aol.com . The hard core roller list is just a few men that breed the Birmingham roller.
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Phantom1
52 posts
Oct 21, 2005
8:59 PM
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Hi Kenny!!!!!!!!!!!
Gotcha again...I'm not posting again to start a pissing match with you or anyone else. But it does urk me that anytime I (personally) post, you don't entertain them. Is it me? Or do you just don't know enough about me to entertain the thought of a conversation and/or debate.
Kenny, you want the honest truth? I KNOW you have great, awesome birds and you know how to handle them. Disregarding any freakin' fly record or score. Hands down, you're most likely going to gown down as one of the "Greats" in this sport and hobby and held in high regards by many. Hell, I'd LOVE to try some of your birds out someday - they'd probably help me tremendously!
I would ask that you please either avoid calling out people, or include me in the masses. I'm trying very hard (as you might have seen by my backing off of the harsh statements and accusations in the past few days) to get along with everyone and try to learn something and be of value to this forum and anyone reading it. I am what I am, if I'm to be labeled as a "Color Breeder", then let's just state the facts. Okay? Just a courteous request.
It is absolutely relevant to KNOW for a fact what you're getting from a pigeon fancier. I agree with you there. You've been burned, I've been burned...who hasn't been burned. The question you have to ask yourself...as well as everyone else...have you been the one doing the burning. If so, you know who you are.
Kenny, my, nor Bob's, nor David's, nor James' or Tony's intent was ever to deceive anyone about anything. I have confidence in this statement Kenny. The video is just that. A documentary of some good ol' boys, like all of us here, trying to explain the order of inheritence and how to breed certain colors - IF that is so what you choose to do. I also have confidence that they were very successful in doing so, to the extent that their personal experiences and training/breeding methods stood up to the challenge and they were able to breed good, solid, rollers. Does this make any colored roller a Birmingham....perhaps not the mind of many. That's acceptable in my mind. Do those same birds offer any threat to what you have or any of the other "purists"? Is this the conflict? Or is the conflict that you feel everyone is in denial? P.S - None of us have Toy Stencil :-)
And you're absolutely right about both sides needing to understand that there are some folks out there cross-breeding for color and inheritence of genes without regard for the physical capabilities of the bird, the type of the bird, nor the stature of the bird. I don't personally know any of them. If you do, have that conversation with them. Those that post here are here for one of two reasons (1) Defending ourselves because we feel inclined to save our good name from falling into the depths of pigeon Hell, and (2) to try and learn something from the many that post here. We seem to be concentrating moreso on the first, rather than the latter.
I could care less about the number of years ago that a certain color was introduced into the ROLLER. The Fall Fly and WC does not say that you have to fly a certified Birmingham Roller in order to compete. That's why I just use the generic term HERE of ROLLER. Sure - we could open up that can of worms about "Well, define BR" or "Well it rolls backward, etc...whatever the heck Pensom wrote". But why? We will all admit, that there have been and probably will continue to be, birds of color in winning kits. So the heck what? If you choose not to feed them, it's not a concern - right? Obviously if it's flying in someone's competition kit, then it has value to add (otherwise, if it were me, it would be in my temporary holding facility - the freezer - until trash day).
Let's move past the movement of constantly trying to reveal those the purists think are doing nothing but evil. I, as a breeder with "colored" rollers, know that you, Scott, George, Shaun, David, Bob, James, Tony...who else - what's it matter? You've all got birds that are a heck of a lot better than what I'm feeding. They make me happy and have kept me out of unknown trouble since 1985. That's priceless to me and I have so much pride in that fact now at 31 years of age. They don't owe me anything, but I owe this hobby a unpayable debt. Let's move on. We have so much to learn from you all that have been in this for years, and have done the research, and the travel, and the competition, and the hours of breaking your neck looking up to the skies in wonder and amazement. Okay?
Yours in the hobby,
Eric
Last Edited by Phantom1 on Oct 21, 2005 9:03 PM
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Mongrel Lofts
56 posts
Oct 22, 2005
4:37 AM
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Hi Eric,
No, its not you. I work 6 days a week long hours. My time to be on the PC is limited. Eric, nothing I say on this topic is meant to be of a personal nature. We have chosen different paths. Its just about rollers. Heck Eric, you sound like a good guy to me and I hope to meet you someday. Stand under some kits and have a great time watching a bunch of barless rollers.LOL
Eric, you have the right attitude, enjoy your birds. I'm backing out of this topic now and going back to my Birmingham roller safe zone.. LOL
If you are ever in Kuna Idaho Eric, give me a call, you are welcome here anytime.. Mongrel Lofts
PS. Eric, here is something to think about. Many Birmingham roller breeders don't let their birds go to just anyone for fear of them being crossed on rare colored birds. Have you seen The Monty Nieble white bars for sale on Egg Bay? Monty would be the first to yell, them are not my birds!!!
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
524 posts
Oct 22, 2005
5:24 AM
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Kenny you said:Have you seen The Monty Nieble white bars for sale on Egg Bay? Monty would be the first to yell, them are not my birds!!!
Very True.The same things can happen to yours or my
rollers after they leave our hands.
As soon as someone wins a fly you can be sure that someone in this World will suddenly have rollers from that Loft for sale.Even if they never got one bird from that flyer.Just the way it is.Nothing we can do to stop it.It all falls back on the Buyer.Ask Questions before you buy.If there is a shadow of a doubt about what a seller tells you then you decide if you want to chance buying from that seller.
Be it rollers from a Purist Roller Loft or from a Color Roller Loft it is up to the buyer to decide.As long as they roll accordingly to what the buyer is looking for.
With the easy access to Band numbers anymore it is not hard to trace the birds back if you take the time to do it.
If someone tells me they have a pair of Rollers Direct from James Turner first thing I do is ask for band numbers.A simple phone call soon lets me know if Turner bred this pair.Just one of the things I do if I am after a certain roller to put in my breeding program.David
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Double D
46 posts
Oct 22, 2005
10:53 AM
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Maybe I'm more different from others than I originally thought. As I posted on the other thread, for me it's all about respect. Let me give you an example.
Right now I'm in correspondence with a well-known and highly-respected fancier who is in the finals for the Fall Fly this year. (Out of respect for him, he shall remain nameless here). He has always performed at a high level and even though he doesn't know me from Adam, he is considering selling me some birds. We've only corresponded by emails and he's been great to share information and history. I can tell though that he's feeling me out and not only am I okay with that, I expect it. I know top fanciers like KGB and Scott and others here have trusted many a newbie with birds only to be burned by them because the newbie loses interest, prostitutes the birds, whatever it may be. If, in the end, he agrees to sell me some birds, I will keep him informed of my progress. I'll ask him tons of questions. Who knows his birds better than he does? I believe this fancier has the chance to win the Fall Fly and someday the World Cup and if he did, I would not begin to sell his birds out of my loft out of respect for him. After I've had them long enough that I've developed my own family and feel like they are mine then that might be a different story but on forums such as this, anytime anyone were to ask me about my birds, I would report them of the "XXXXX" strain from "so&so fancier", giving credit where credit is due. I have way to much respect for a person who has put their life into their family of birds to get some birds from them and then exploit them in some way for my own personal gain.
Does that mean I won't sell birds? One of my long-term goals is to establish a solid club here in my area so that we can enjoy the comradere and the competition that would come with that. No doubt I would be a source of seed birds for those in my area wanting to get started. However, out of respect for where I got my start, I wouldn't sell the birds for probably what they're worth and everyone would know where they came from. I would also take the same care in trying to make sure that those interested are truly interested just as this gentleman is doing with me.
Like I said, maybe I'm the odd-ball that way but it just seems like the right thing to do.
Darin
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
526 posts
Oct 22, 2005
11:21 AM
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Darin.I feel much the same way.I still give credit to James Turner who spent the last 45+ years to get this family to where it is at now.Sure I have had them for several years and have selected from the air my breeders according to what I want in a roller and have developed a family of my own rollers but the bloodline remains the same.Nothing much I done except follow the roll.Some don,t agree with this but I feel I havn't earned the respect with this family to call them mine.Probably never will.Turner developed them. All I do is fly them and breed them.LOL.David
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Shaun
173 posts
Oct 22, 2005
11:51 AM
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Well, Darin, continuing your theme, it took me much correspondence with Graham Dexter before I was put in touch with George Mason, in order to get good birds. That's how hard it was to get on the inside - I had to first uncover the author of Winners with Spinners, President of our national roller club, just to get some decent rollers. It seemed at the time like a bloody secret society.
But, the reason seems simple: no-one wants to sell birds to some idiot who will ruin them in the name of the renowned flyer/breeder. He has to know you're serious and that you will seek his advice when necessary. He may call you unexpectedly to ask how they're doing. George rang me one evening, out of the blue, and waited patiently whilst my wife walked to the end of our long garden, whilst telling him I was, as ever, playing with his rollers.
Onto your mention of respect and I had similar feelings soon after receiving the Mason birds. It seemed to me that it was perhaps showing disrespect by bidding in the world cup auction for a pair of breeders from Dave Moseley - living not far away from George and who remains an ongoing competitor to him. Scott quite rightly said it was a golden opportunity, but I felt that so soon after obtaining George's birds, it didn't feel quite right. However, I posted something to that effect here, and the consensus was that this wasn't disrespectful - so I went on to bid and lose the auction!
As it is, I've now got some youngsters from Dave, so I've now expanded a little beyond just having the Mason birds. One thing I've not forgotten is that when talking to George, he doesn't say much - little one-liners, no doubt very important - but I'm crying out for more detail; I just feel I can't ask.
With Dave, I had a 2 hour chat and covered every roller topic under the sun (except colour; it's just not an issue over here!). I wish I'd had a tape recorder at the time - so much valuable information.
So, as you say - ask tons of questions. Perhaps, one day newbies will be doing the same to the likes of you and I.
Shaun
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Shaun
174 posts
Oct 22, 2005
11:58 AM
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David, you've said that after all these years, the bloodline of your birds remains the same. Please, please don't see this as the start of another colour debate, but so many here have posted to the effect that by the time a guy has had birds for any length of time, that original bloodline is lost, so there's no point in trying to maintain that your birds are, well, whatever they were originally.
What's your view of the way the original bloodline carries on over the years, from your own breeding perspective.
Thanks.
Shaun
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
527 posts
Oct 22, 2005
12:05 PM
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Shaun.How can the bloodline change? It is the same as what I started with.Am I missing something in your question? David
P.S. After reading your post again what you are saying is that the Birmingham Roller bloodline was lost a long time ago.Right?
Last Edited by Bluesman on Oct 22, 2005 12:07 PM
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Shaun
175 posts
Oct 22, 2005
12:23 PM
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David, it wasn't a leading question and it's nothing to with what I believe to be a Birmingham Roller. What you said about the line continuing - pretty much regardless of what you've done with the birds over the years - does differ from a variety of posts recently which have said that the bloodline after so many years becomes irrelevant, as so many factors in, for example, breeding choices, will render that line as nothing like the original. I think it was Scott who then responded that if that were the case, we'd all still have rock doves. I was interested in your view on that 'original line diminishing over time', having had one particular line for so long.
Shaun
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
528 posts
Oct 22, 2005
12:38 PM
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Shaun.I am still working off a lot of the original breeders so I really couldn,t say.
But no matter what breeding choices we make as long as we stay within the family the bloodline stays the same.As to how they may look or perform that will definately change according to the owners selections.And thru time they will even handle different.
But like I said before I havn't earned the right or moved this family forward or backward to call them my own family.I am pretty much still breeding them the way I was taught.
Now my project rollers they are mine.LOL. David
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Shaun
176 posts
Oct 22, 2005
12:46 PM
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David, if over time, with the breeding process, the birds then look, handle and perform differently, what do you feel is actually left of the original bloodline? What could someone still identify with?
Shaun
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Shaun
177 posts
Oct 22, 2005
2:17 PM
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David. You clearly know what you're doing, despite your modesty. What I was thinking was, do you think the line you have - any established line, for that matter - is strong enough, so that if someone was to 'ruin' his own particular birds, it wouldn't affect the line overall? So, someone else, with better handling abilities could perhaps take the duff birds from the disaster of a handler and resurrect the same line through better handling. That DNA, if you like, shining through.
Shaun
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
530 posts
Oct 22, 2005
5:02 PM
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Shaun.I have no doubt in my mind that it can and is being done.I have a lot to learn about rollers but I have learned one thing and that is of all the different families/strains within the rollers that I have tried there is good in all of them.I feel that thru time if you carefully select from the air you can develop a good line of rollers.My thinking is that the ro gene(the gene that makes a roller roll)is already established in the birds.All we have to do is cultivate it.That is why when you cross different families you get that Hybrid Vigor in the first generation.Just another tool like feed that stimulates the ro gene.David
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