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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
World Cup Competition
World Cup Competition
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Ballrollers
117 posts
Oct 25, 2005
3:58 PM
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With the regionals of the Fall Fly behind us many of us are looking forward to flying on the World Cup next spring. Scott, I know that you are a World Cup RD and competition is your passion with rollers. I am interested in some of the background and working dynamics of the WC committee. (Who knows one day...?)Do you mind answering some questions I have and, perhaps, laying to rest some of the quandry and rumor about some of the rules? I'll apologize ahead of time for the number of questions.
It is my understanding that a couple men out of the northeast worked diligently (and succeeded) to remove the flyers' rights to adjust kit size BEFORE time in. Correct? (How is that the WC enacts rules that affect the flyers before the fly and the judging has actually started?) Was there some documented evidence of wrong-doing that lead the WC committee to make these changes or was it just that they didn't like this rule or that? Or was it a response to an effort by one or two guys? (I am specifically referring to the time in rule.) Were there a lot of problems reported to the WC committee over the past 10 years that resulted in the committee feeling like it needed to take action? Why do you think the NBRC did not approve a single WC change? Did the WC committee just recently vote on a proposal to repeal the time in rule and give the flyers back their right to adjust kit size before time in? How come we never heard much about it? Is their some secrecy going on here, or just poor communication? I've got a few more questions stewin' but I'll save 'em for later!! I figure if anybody can give us the straight scoop it is you, Scott!! LOL
YITS Cliff
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Oct 25, 2005 4:00 PM
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knaylor
1 post
Oct 25, 2005
8:33 PM
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Cliff, there was a vote a few years ago and it was passed about all the new w/c rules. The rules are discussed and voted on to better the competition and that is all. There is nothing secret about the comittee. Talk to your local RD and he can inform you of anything new. It was recently voted on by the RD's and it was passed to keep the current time in rule. The NBRC and the W/C fly are not associated together at all. The W/C does use the NBRC bulletin to advertise and promote the fly. Hope this helps, Kevin
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motherlodelofts
402 posts
Oct 25, 2005
9:52 PM
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Cliff I will answer in caps
With the regionals of the Fall Fly behind us many of us are looking forward to flying on the World Cup next spring. Scott, I know that you are a World Cup RD and competition is your passion with rollers. I am interested in some of the background and working dynamics of the WC committee. (Who knows one day...?)Do you mind answering some questions I have and, perhaps, laying to rest some of the quandry and rumor about some of the rules?
(CLIFF I HAVE HEARD ALL THE RUMORS AND CONSPIRACY THEORIES , THEY WERE STARTED BY A FEW THAT DIDN'T LIKE THE CHANGE AND THEY ARE COMPLETLY FALSE , EVERY ONE OF THEM)
I'll apologize ahead of time for the number of questions.
It is my understanding that a couple men out of the northeast worked diligently ( NOT A CLUE WHO YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT AND I HAVE BEEN ON THE COMMITTEE THE ENTIRE TIME,AS FAR AS I KNOW NO ONE IN THE N.EAST GOT THE BALL ROLLING ON THIS THING)(and succeeded) to remove the flyers' rights to adjust kit size BEFORE time in. Correct?
(FLYERS RIGHTS ? WHAT DOES THAT MEAN ? CLIFF WE HAD A PROBLEM WITH DIFFERENT JUDGES AND DIFFERENT REGIONS INTERPITING THE RULE , SOME WERE SUBSTITUTING, SOME WERE DEDUCTING AND SUBSTITUTING, SOME WERE DOING IT WITH NON KITTERS ECT. WHAT WAS HAPPENING IS OTHER RULES WERE BEING REACHED INTO SUCH AS DEDUCTING BECAUSE THE RULES SAY THAT YOU CAN FLY AS FEW AS 15 , THE TIME IN RULE DOESN'T SAY THAT BUT IT'S IN THE RULES.
OR "WELL IT DOESN'T SAY YOU CAN'T" , THE BOTTOM LINE IS CONSISTANCY WAS A PROBLEM.
IT STARTED WITH MARSHAL DUNCAN OUT OF S CALIF SUMMITING A REWORDING BUT WE WERE LOOKING FOR SOMETHING THAT WAS SIMPLE AND IRON CLAD THAT WOULD PUT EVERY JUDGE AND EVERY REGION ON THE SAME PAGE WITH NO QUESTION AS TO THE RULE AND NO WAY TO FIND LOOPHOLES TO MODIFY IT.
HIENE FROM HOLLAND SUGGESTED "DECLARE WHAT IS BEING FLOWN AND THAT IS HOW MANY YOU FLY" HMMMMM WHAT WAS ALSO LOOKED AT IS THAT THIS IS THE BIG BOY FLY, THE BEST IN THE WORLD , WHY WOULD BIRDS NEED TO BE DEDUCTED OR SUBSITUTED ? ONE IS AN ACCIDENT AND YOU ARE STILL IN THE GAME , IF TWO CRASHED , THEN THE FLIER SCREWED UP.
THIS WAS DEBATED , WORDED, DEBATED WORDED AND THEN VOTED ON.
IT WAS CLEAR THAT IT WOULD PASS AND HAD HUGE SUPPORT , THIS YEAR THE CONSPIRACY THEORIES REARED THEIR UGLY HEADS SO WE WENT BACK OVER IT AS THE GAURDS HAD CHANGED IN MANY REGIONS.
ONCE EVERYTHING WAS PUT ON THE TABLE AS FOR THE WHYS AND HOWS IT WAS PASSED AGAIN AND UPHELD.
(How is that the WC enacts rules that affect the flyers before the fly and the judging has actually started?)
(CLIFF THE FLY STARTS THE SECOND THAT YOU OPEN THE DOOR ,AT THAT TIME THEY GO ON THE CLOCK FOR FIVE MINUTES OR UNTIL YOU CALL TIME IN , IF IT DIDN'T START AT THAT POINT THERE WOULD BE NO TIME IN RULE AT ALL. )
Was there some documented evidence of wrong-doing that lead the WC committee to make these changes or was it just that they didn't like this rule or that?
CLIFF THE COMMITTEE IS EVERY RD THROUGHOUT THE WORLD , THIS IS NOT A CLUB.
DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE ?? WE AREN'T IN COURT , THE REASONS ARE ABOVE.
Or was it a response to an effort by one or two guys? (I am specifically referring to the time in rule.) NO, ONCE THE BALL GOT ROLLING MANY GOT INVOLVED, THE COMMITTEE HAS IT'S OWN GROUP LIST AND EVERYTHING IS THERE FOR ALL COMMITTEE MEMBERS TO SEE, TWO GUYS CAN'T DO ANYTHING, IT TAKES THE MAJORITY OF THE BOARD.
Were there a lot of problems reported to the WC committee over the past 10 years that resulted in the committee feeling like it needed to take action?
ANSWERED ABOVE
Why do you think the NBRC did not approve a single WC change?
THE W/C IS NOT THE NBRC , WHO CARES
Did the WC committee just recently vote on a proposal to repeal the time in rule and give the flyers back their right to adjust kit size before time in?
CLIFF BY YOUR WORDING IT IS OBVIOUS THAT YOU ARE BEING INFLUENCED BY SOMEONE BEFORE YOU HAVE EVEN FLOWN THIS FLY ONCE .
RULES ARE RULES,WHAT IS THIS 'RIGHTS' STUFF ?
YES IT WENT BACK UP FOR VOTE AND WAS AGAIN PASSED HANDS DOWN
How come we never heard much about it? Is their some secrecy going on here, or just poor communication?
SECRECY ???? CLIFF YOU HAVN'T EVEN FLOW THIS FLY YET, AND YET YOU ARE BEING GUIDED BY THE CONSPIRACY THRORIES OF OTHERS.
EVERYTHING WILL BE IN THE BULLITEN JUST LIKE IN THE PAST INCLUDING HOW EVERY RD VOTED
I've got a few more questions stewin' but I'll save 'em for later!! I figure if anybody can give us the straight scoop it is you, Scott!! LOL
YITS Cliff
NOW YOU HAVE THE STRAIGHT SCOOP CLIFF, MY BEST ADVICE TO YOU IS TO NOT BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU HEAR AND TO HOLD YOUR OPINION UNTIL YOU RESEARCH EXACTLY WHAT IS GOING ON AND WHY, THEN FORM YOUR "OWN" OPINION.
WHAT THE COMMITTEE DID WAS WORK LONG AND HARD PUTTING EVERY REGION AND EVERY JUDGE ON THE SAME PAGE . THE RULES ARE NOW SIMPLE AND CUT AND DRY WITH NO LOOPHOLES TO MODIFY THEM.
WE ACCOMPLISHED WHAT WE SET OUT TO DO, AND NO NOT ALL FLIERS ARE HAPPY WITH IT.
BUT WHAT WAS BEST FOR THE W/C WAS ACCOMPLISHED AND THAT WAS OUR GOAL.
IT PASSED HANDS DOWN THE FIRST TIME , AND IT PASSED HANDS DOWN AGAIN WITH A NEW R/C ALONG WITH MANY NEW RDS.
THE BOTTOM LINE IS GOOD SOLID PIGEONS SHOULDN'T HAVE A PROBLEM
CLIFF THESE ALSO ARE NOTHING BUT THANKLESS JOBS
I HOPE THIS HELPS
SCOTT
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Oct 26, 2005 8:44 AM
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nicksiders
256 posts
Oct 25, 2005
10:11 PM
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Rules keep the playing field level for everyone if you agree with the rules or not doesn't matter.
I didn't compete this year, but I do understand the rules and I appreciate the hard work the commity went through to put all the rules together from all of the correspondance recieved.
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scotty
15 posts
Oct 25, 2005
11:12 PM
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Can the rules on compatition day sway one way or the other depending on weather the judge is a liberal or conservitive judge? Or weather the judge judgeing on compatition day, knows the flyer he is judgeing on a personal level outside compatition day?... As far as gaining point's.-Mike
Last Edited by scotty on Oct 25, 2005 11:19 PM
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rotti
5 posts
Oct 26, 2005
4:50 AM
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Can I drive 90 mph in a 65 zone if the right cop is there? Of course I can. It's not a matter of rules. It is a matter of integrity. We trust the judge to judge us to the same standard they judge their buddies to. That's it. If a judge is unfair time will show. If I am just mad becauseI lost. Time will show. I may be new but I have stood in a few backyards and watched a few kits fly. Do I think it would be easy to judge? Hell no! Would I even attempt it? Not yet. The people who are willing to spend the time,money,and effort to judge should be applauded. Which one of us is willing to spend the time and money to judge a world cup fly? I think those willing to judge should be given the respect and trust they deserve. I am new to the roller world. But I have noticed since I've joined there are more politics involved here than anywhere else. Why is this? Do you really care who's birds you started with? If you can fly and improve isn't that what it's about? The rules are set so we all compete for the same ideal. If you don't agree with that ideal, help change it. If you only complain because you lost? Breed better next year. Don
Last Edited by rotti on Oct 26, 2005 4:54 AM
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Ballrollers
118 posts
Oct 26, 2005
8:47 AM
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Scott,
Thanks for responding and attempting to resolve some of these issues for us. Please don't take these questions as a personal attack. I am asking you because you seem to have a handle on the WC and it's inner workings and you have a committment. It's not that I am being unduly influenced, necessarily, but I am in communication and discussions with many, and I hear their gripes and complaints. You know me, by now! I'm not the kind of guy to just sit and wonder why. I tend to try to get it all out on the table for all to understand to avoid the miscommunication, rumor, and misunderstandings that go along with trying to run national and international organizations. I guess you can tell by now that there is some question as to whether the flyers are truly being represented by their RDs. The e-mail medium does not work 100%; not all have computers and some do not want to be involved with the political bickering so the point of view of their flyers may go unheard. You mentioned that the vote on the time-in rule was a landslide, but looking at the WC bulletin, we see that the vote was 17 yea, 3 no, and 12 who did not cast ballots. That's a lot not to be heard from; nearly half. Sounds like something was not completely understood or resolved in their own minds for some! I know for a fact that not all regions were represented and that kinda bugs me. OK, so you are on the WC committee and so is Kevin, but what about the rest of us? How do we know what's up? Do you guys canvass your flyers to see what they think, or is the RD's opinion the only one that matters? In other words, do you really believe that 18-20 WC RDs (a quorum) can truly reflect the opinions of 800 flyers? It is interesting that you say the 800 flyers have no lines of communication until after the committee meets and votes. It seems like the WC has no system in place to take into account all the flyers. It seems to be run by a few RDs that have computers. Am I wrong here? If computers are the primary mode of communication, then it seems like the WC needs to require all RDs to have a computer!!
One final note, when the WC was started, was it not the members of the NBRC that formulated the rules/by-laws for the WC? And didn't the NBRC fly the FF by those new rules so the NBRC members could support the WC and become acquainted with the rules? So how did we go from that close working relationship to this "who cares" atttitude? Do we now have the NBRC vs. the WC for "top fly"? It seems like the NBRC and the WC has some friction among the ruling bodies, but the RDs are often the same!!! Who do you support personally, the NBRC or the WC? "Who needs them?" seems a little harsh if you truly support the NBRC. Sorry, I didn't mean to take it personal, but I see you post negative things about the NBRC from time to time and I am trying to get a feel for your true position. There are many, myself included, who respect what you have to say on these lists, and we are trying to decide whether or not to support the WC and its flys. YITS Cliff
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motherlodelofts
407 posts
Oct 26, 2005
9:46 AM
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Cliff , it is all nothing but politics , the 1-2-3 rule was put in place for the W/C and the NBRC adopted them.
The reason that the NBRC changed is do to the politics at hand at the "moment" .
All was done trying to get "every" RD involved, but the fact is many don't work the computor the way we do and if their kids don't tell them that they have an e-mail they never read it.
On every little issue I was hounded to vote , as I am sure others were.
Clay brought that up to me also about those that didn't vote and even suggested that those were no vote's , if you look at those that didn't vote on it, many of those didn't vote on many things, and then some of those that voted on that issue didnt vote on much else at all , there is no pattern there at all to suggest anything.
And plus it was all put into print for all to see.
I also heard the "Bobby" story from Clay and how Bobby tried to change his vote after the fact as was told it was to late as it was over and he was told it wouldn't of effected the outcome anyway (and ???? what is the problem ?)
As for flyers, they change constantly and only the die hards are there year after year , there is no membership and it is not a club.
As for myself I inform my lad on whats going on and the bulk of the flyers could care less and few actualy know the rule's as it is.
Cliff what we did was in the best interest of the WorldCup , plain and simple , and one thing that I have seen from flying it solid the past eight years is that if there is a hole to manipulate the rule's it is taken.
Don Simpson was the RD in "your" region at the time , if "you" have any questions talk to him about it.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Oct 26, 2005 9:54 AM
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Ballrollers
119 posts
Oct 26, 2005
12:14 PM
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Scott,
So it sounds like what you are telling me is that a quuorum of WC RDs, somewhere around 18-20 men, actually run the WC fly with minimal input from the flyers. That would explain England making noises like they might not fly next year, and it is no secret that South Africa is unhappy, when a few US RDs may, indeed, be running the whole show (as they are accusing). And if I were to post some of the discussions on the WC committee where profanity and verbal abuse are used by some to intimidate those whose opinions differ, would that bother you at all? It seems to me that the RD is supposed to represent the opinions of the WC flyers in that region. Correct? If that is so, why do most of the WC flyers I talk to know nothing of the votes taken in their behalf. That is what bothers me. For the sake of argument, I am not disgruntled with the way the votes have gone; I believe you guys have the best interest of the WC at heart. I am most interested in how the flyer's input (if any) is known. You say they (the flyers) don't care. I wonder about that. Maybe they just don't know what is going on in the first place.
If the WC has such a low opinion of many of the RDs, and doesn't care about hearing from the men who fly in it, or is not organized to do so...why should we support it? I don't want ot be the harbinger of doom, but it may fail as an organization, unless some changes are made. In reality, fewer than 100 of the 800 kits have a real chance of winning. The financial support for the fly depends, primarily, on the non-professional or non-die-hard backyard flyer. If the WC continues to ignore them, in favor of a few elite flyers and a select few RDs that are out of touch with the men in their regions, things do no bode well for the World Cup (as we see is already starting). And why the committee would try to lock in all changes for 5 years, so no one can amend the errors made by these few men, is perpexing as well. The RDs put their pants on one leg at a time, like the rest of us and they will make mistakes!
Why not publish the issues at hand in the NBRC journal, since 99% of the US WC flyers are NBRC members, and request that flyers share their opinions with their RDs? More communication can only be a better thing. Find a way to include the flyers' opinions. The rule changes affect them the most. This was the first time they have been changed and may not be the last. Good luck. Looks like you'll need it! YITS Cliff
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knaylor
3 posts
Oct 26, 2005
6:27 PM
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Cliff, any RD that is not on the computer is contacted by mail and asked to submit a vote. All RD's are contacted. Like Scott said if you have any questions about topics that are being voted on you should contact your RD. I myself do contact a few fliers in my region that I know will fly yaer after year and do want their opinion. But the fliers change year to year I do not contact everyone because I believe that if you are not competeing in the W/C you shouldn't have a voice on how the rules should be. England and South Africa are totally seperate issues all together. And I will not get into much discussion on those issues. Like I have said before we have the best interest of the W/C fly at all times. Kevin
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Bill C
10 posts
Oct 26, 2005
7:47 PM
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I uderstand your questions about your consensus, however you can take your own consensus right here by making anohter post and see what people would vote.
I actually like the number of birds to fly and time in rule. Its good for the birds and if a guy has his birds too hungry, he could lose the fly. Also it guides us into producing stable rollers, which everyone needs to have over time. I have had several birds that bump when leaving the kit box and a few roll deep when landing. We all want a stable blood line but it take patience and time to get there. I think is is fair to everyone who flys to call the number before liberating the kit. One Vote here Bill
Last Edited by Bill C on Oct 26, 2005 7:48 PM
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Mongrel Lofts
61 posts
Oct 26, 2005
7:58 PM
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Scott,
You have got to just give it up man. Arguing with these guys, is like arguing with the handicapped Mongoloid at McDonalds when he takes your food tray with your food on it. You can't get the point across your not done with the food. He throws your food in the garbage and is just happy you paid attention to him.. Give it up Scott!!! LOL Mongrel Lofts
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Phantom1
63 posts
Oct 26, 2005
8:07 PM
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Kenny,
Come on man...my son has Down's Syndrome. You comparing my son to someone that is only compotent enough to work at McDonald's? Give him a chance.....
Okay - kidding - but there probably is someone reading that has a child that is a Mongloid. What can I say, I'm in that age bracket where it's a concern and I know a little something about statistics. Let's try to keep it courteous. Please.....
Eric
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motherlodelofts
408 posts
Oct 26, 2005
8:16 PM
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Scott,
So it sounds like what you are telling me is that a quuorum of WC RDs, somewhere around 18-20 men, actually run the WC fly with minimal input from the flyers.
(CLIFF READ THE W/C BYLAWS )
That would explain England making noises like they might not fly next year,
(ENGLAND WAS UNHAPPY THAT AN ENGLISH JUDGE WASN'T CHOSEN WHEN A ENGLISHMAN HAD WON BUT WASN'T ABLE TO JUDGE, IF THE WINNER CHOOSES NOT TO JUDGE THEN ACCORDING TO THE BYLAWS IT GOES TO VOTE , AND THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED )
and it is no secret that South Africa is unhappy, when a few US RDs may, indeed, be running the whole show (as they are accusing).
(THERE COMPLAINT ISN'T ACCUSING A FEW U.S. COMMITTEEE MEMBERS OF RUNNING THE WHOLE SHOW, THEIR COMPLAINT IS THAT THE U.S. HAS THE POWER , FOR EVERY REGION EACH QAULIFIER IS (ONE) VOTE , THE U.S. HAS THE BULK OF THE VOTE'S DUE TO THE VAST AMOUNT OF FLIERS , BUT NOR ARE THEY SHEEP AND FOLLOW EACH OTHER , SOUTH AFRICA DOESN'T WANT TO FLY REGIONS BUT INSTEAD WANTS TO BECOME ONE REGION UNDER THEIR FEDERATION, THE FEDERATION IS LIKE OUR NBRC , MEMBERSHIP INTO THE FEDERATION ALSO INCLUDES PAYING W/C FEES., AN EXAMPLE IS A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO WE HAD LIST OF 45 FLYERS BUT OVER 160 KITS WERE PAID FOR WHICH GAVE THEM 11 QAULIFIERS, NOW EVERY REGION MUST SUPPLY A FLYERS LIST AND EACH FLIER MUST FLY AT LEAST ONE KIT.
UNDER THE W/C BYLAWS NO REGION CAN HAVE MORE THAN 5 QAULIFIERS ,ALSO EACH REGION IS IT'S OWN ENITY , THEY CANNOT PULL UNDER ONE REGION DUE TO IT TAKES ALL THEIR REGIONS GIVING THEIR OK TO DO SO, THIS HAS NOT HAPPENED. I BELIEVE THAT SOME OVER THERE WANT TO GET AROUND THIS BUT THEY CAN'T. SO THEY MUST FLY THE SAME STRUCTURE AS EVERYONE ELSE , WHICH IS THE WAY IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE.
And if I were to post some of the discussions on the WC committee where profanity and verbal abuse are used by some to intimidate those whose opinions differ,
(NOW YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT JOETESTA AND JIM S FROM NEW MEXICO , TO KNOW JT IS TO LOVE JT , HE HAS BEEN REMOVED FROM THE LIST DUE TO HIS PROFANITY , THAT TOOK CARE OF THAT)
(CLIFF WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY IF "YOU' WERE TO POST SOME OF THE DISCUSSIONS ? )
would that bother you at all? It seems to me that the RD is supposed to represent the opinions of the WC flyers in that region. Correct? If that is so, why do most of the WC flyers I talk to know nothing of the votes taken in their behalf.
(TELL THEM TO TALK TO THEIR RDS ABOUT IT , LETS FACE IT CLIFF IN REALITY YOU ARE ONLY TALKING ABOUT A FEW HERE THAT ARE FANNING THE FLAMES , IF THEY DON'T LIKE IT TELL THEM TO FIRE THEIR RDS AND DO IT THEMSELFS )
That is what bothers me. For the sake of argument, I am not disgruntled with the way the votes have gone; I believe you guys have the best interest of the WC at heart. I am most interested in how the flyer's input (if any) is known. You say they (the flyers) don't care.
(CLIFF WHAT I SAID WAS (MOST) FLIERS)
I wonder about that. Maybe they just don't know what is going on in the first place.
(CLIFF THE COMMITTEE HAS DEALT WITH SOME REAL ISSUES THAT WERE REAL PROBLEMS OVER THE PAST COUPLE OF YEARS , WHAT WE HAVE DONE IS EVENED OUT THE PLAYING FIELD ACCROSS THE BOARD AND TRY AND PUT EVERY REGION AROUND THE WORLD ON THE 'SAME' PAGE , AND IN DOING SO SOME TOES WERE STEPPED ON , THE TIME IN RULE WAS PROBABLY THE SMALLEST OF THE ISSUES , SOME OF THE MAJOR ONES I SHARED HERE.
If the WC has such a low opinion of many of the RDs, and doesn't care about hearing from the men who fly in it, or is not organized to do so...why should we support it?
(CLIFF YOU HAVE NEVER FLOWN THIS FLY SO YOU HAVN'T SUPPORTED IT , THE OTHERS WILL SUPPORT IT BECAUSE THEIR IS NO OTHER FLY LIKE IT IN THE WORLD , IT IS THE BIG DADDY AND IT IS STEPPING UP TO THE PLATE AND PLAYING WITH THE BIG BOYS, IF SOMEONE MAKES EXCUSES NOT TO FLY IT THEY AREN'T REAL FLYERS ANYWAY
I don't want ot be the harbinger of doom, but it may fail as an organization,
(DOUBTFUL CLIFF , IT HAS GROWN TO A POINT OF ALMOST SPLITTING AT THE SEAMS AND THERE IS TALK OF CREATING SUPER REGIONS)
unless some changes are made. In reality, fewer than 100 of the 800 kits have a real chance of winning.
(WHAT ARE YOU SAYING , WE SHOULD LOOSEN THE RULES SO THAT LESSER KITS HAVE A CHANCE , SORRY CLIFF BUT THIS IS THE WORLD CUP)
The financial support for the fly depends, primarily, on the non-professional or non-die-hard backyard flyer.
(GOTTA HAVE THEM, AND AS OUR GROWTH HAS DEMONSTRATED IS A GAME THAT ROLLER FLIERS WANT TO FLY, THEY LIKE STEPPING IN AND PLAYING HARDBALL WITH THE REST OF THE WORLD.
If the WC continues to ignore them, in favor of a few elite flyers and a select few RDs that are out of touch with the men in their regions,
(I HAVN'T SEEN THIS AT ALL CLIFF AND I AM IN CONSTANT CONTACT WITH MANY , A THIRD OF WHICH LIVE IN THIS STATE)
(A FEW SELECT RDs ? , A FEW SELECT RDs HAVE NO POWER TO DO ANYTHING !!!!)
things do no bode well for the World Cup (as we see is already starting).
(CLIFF YOU JUST STEPPED INTO THE SPORT !!!!! AND KNOW NOTHING OTHER THAN PARROTING SOMEONE ELSE AND NOW YOU ARE MAKING DOOMSDAY PREDICTIONS ? THE THE ONLY ONES THAT WILL SINK THIS SHIP ARE THE LIKES OF YOURSELF, BUT THAT IS VERY VERY DOUBTFUL , THERE ARE TO0 MANY OF US WORKING TOO HARD TO LET THAT HAPPEN)
And why the committee would try to lock in all changes for 5 years, so no one can amend the errors made by these few men, is perpexing as well.
(ERRORS ???? BY A "FEW" MEN ??? EVEN FOR YOU NOT BEING INVOLVED IN THE FLY OR THE MECHANICS OF IT'S INNER WORKINGS THAT IS A IDIOTIC STATEMENT, WHAT DO YOU THINK THE COMMITTEE MEMBERS FROM AROUND THE WORLD ARE , A BUNCH OF FRIGGING IDIOTS ? WE ARE THE ONE'S BUSTING OUR ASSES TO MAKE THIS THING HAPPEN,WE ARE THE ONE'S THAT ARE PUTTING IN THE COUNTLESS HOURS AND OUR OWN MONEY TO MAKE THESE FLYS HAPPEN, I HAVE BEEN DOING THIS JOB FOR 5 YEARS BECAUSE THERE IS NO ELSE WILLING TO PUT IN THE WORK,AND I AM FAR FROM ALONE, WE TAKE THE TIME OFF TO SHAG JUDGES FROM AIRPORTS ACCROSS COUNTLESS MILES ON DAYS THAT WE SHOULD BE BE WORKING , WE ARE THE ONE'S THAT FLIPS THE BILL WHEN THE MONEY RUNS OUT AND THE ONES THAT MAKE UP THE EXTRA MONEY TO FLY JUDGES IN , AND YOU AND A COUPLE OF SIDE LINERS WANT TO INSULT US ? ALL I CAN SAY IS "FIRE" US. IN FACT PLEASE FIRE ME , I WOULD LOVE TO BE ON THE SIDE LINES AND LET SOMEONE ELSE DO ALL OF THE WORK. TALK IS CHEAP CLIFF , IN FACT IF YOU WERE IN MY REGION TALKING THIS GARBAGE I WOULD THROW THIS JOB IN YOUR LAP SO FAST THAT IT WOULD MAKE YOUR HEAD SPIN FAR MORE THAN IT ALREADY IS. I THINK POLITICS IS GOING TO BE YOUR CALLING HERE CLIFF.
AS FOR THE LOCK, THAT WAS SUMMITED BY HEINE BIEKER FROM HOLLAND)
The RDs put their pants on one leg at a time, like the rest of us and they will make mistakes!
(WHO HAS MADE MISTAKES ?? , I HAVE SEEN NOTHING BUT GOOD COME FROM A LOT OF HARD WORK , ONLY TO BE INSULTED BY A SOME CLOWN THAT HAS GIVEN NOTHNG TO THE SPORT )
Why not publish the issues at hand in the NBRC journal, since 99% of the US WC flyers are NBRC members, and request that flyers share their opinions with their RDs? More communication can only be a better thing. Find a way to include the flyers' opinions. The rule changes affect them the most. This was the first time they have been changed and may not be the last. Good luck. Looks like you'll need it! YITS Cliff
(WHAT IS GOOD LUCK.LOOKS LIKE YOU WILL NEED IT ABOUT ? THATS DOUBTFUL, THE WHINERS GENERALY AREN'T THE ONE'S WILLING TO PUT IN THE EFFORT , BUT IF THEY WANT IT CLIFF THEY CAN HAVE IT !!!!! )
CLIFF THAT IS ALL YOU GET FROM ME , EVEN THOUGH YOUR IGNORANCE AND FOUL MOTIVES ARE OBVIOUS I ANSWERED YOUR INSULTING QUESTIONS EVEN THOUGH YOU ARE A NON PARTICIPANT IN THE W/C , WHICH IS FAR MORE THAN WHAT YOU DESERVE FOR TRYING TO DO WHAT YOU WERE TRYING TO DO HERE.
IF YOU HAVE ANY MORE QUESTIONS TAKE IT TO YOUR RD.
Scott Campbell
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Oct 27, 2005 7:46 AM
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motherlodelofts
410 posts
Oct 26, 2005
8:56 PM
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Who do you support personally, the NBRC or the WC? "Who needs them?"
( CLIFF THEY ARE COMPLETLY DIFFERENT ENITIES , WHO DO I SUPPORT ? WHAT KIND OF QUESTION IS THAT ? I SUPPORT EVERY NBRC FLY "EVERY" YEAR , I GO TO THE CONVENTIONS AND SPEND MONEY, I PAY MY DUES EVERY YEAR , I DONATE BIRDS FOR THE AUCTIONS,I HAVE BEEN RD, AND I AM A CURRENTLY LAD FOR THIS REGION (NBRC).
NOW CLIFF TELL ME WHAT YOU HAVE DONE FOR THE NBRC ?
seems a little harsh if you truly support the NBRC. Sorry, I didn't mean to take it personal, but I see you post negative things about the NBRC from time to time
(NEVER DO I POST ANYTHING NEGATIVE ABOUT THE NBRC, YOU HAVE BALLS CLIFF , WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU CLIFF ? YOU HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN "NOTHING" AND HAVE BEEN IN THE SPORT FOR 5 MIN. AND ALREADY YOU ARE TRYING TO INCITE RIFT )
and I am trying to get a feel for your true position. There are many, myself included, who respect what you have to say on these lists, and we are trying to decide whether or not to support the WC and its flys. YITS Cliff
(CLIFF WHY DO I THINK THAT YOUR MOTIVES ARE MORE SINISTER THAN WHAT YOU LET ON , IF YOU ARE A TRUE FLIER YOU WILL FLY THEM, BUT CLIFF FROM WHAT I READ YOU NEVER REALLY TALK PIGEONS , IT IS ALL POITICAL AND I DON'T LIKE WHAT I SEE. MY GAME ISN'T POLITICS , IT IS FLYING PIGEONS AND GIVING TO THE SPORT.
YOU ARE DIFFERENT ,AND I AM STARTING TO PUT MY FINGER ON IT.
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Oct 26, 2005 11:21 PM
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Mongrel Lofts
62 posts
Oct 26, 2005
8:59 PM
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Scott,
You have got to just give it up man. Arguing with these guys, is like arguing with the handicapped Mongoloid at McDonalds when he takes your food tray with your food on it. You can't get the point across your not done with the food. He throws your food in the garbage and is just happy you paid attention to him.. Give it up Scott!!! LOL Mongrel Lofts
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Phantom1
68 posts
Oct 26, 2005
10:06 PM
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Nice Kenny...
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motherlodelofts
415 posts
Oct 27, 2005
12:18 AM
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Cliff this is what you wrote , explain yourself , your either on someones computer or someone is doing what they are not supposed to do ,which is it ?
And if I were to post some of the discussions on the WC committee
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Ballrollers
120 posts
Oct 27, 2005
7:53 AM
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Thanks Kevin. I appreciate your input here, as well.That is exactly the kind of response that I am looking for in trying to determine whether the flyers really have a voice in things like fly rule changes, etc., like in the NBRC, or whether things are run by a handful of overbearing guys who run the world cup the way they think it shold be run, as rumor has it. I am hoping that is a load of crap. Based on what you are saying, it should not be real hard (as in your own case) for an RD to contact all the flyers who supported the WC last fly. Each flyer has the option to voice his opinion on any vote, if he so chooses, right? Do you think all the RDs know that this is one of their responsibilities as RD? Are their responsibilities defined anywhere? I have been asked to consider representing our area in the near future and am looking forward to participating this coming spring with my first kit, though they will only be '05 birds. I don't know why Scott is getting all bent outta shape. I am just trying to get a few answers to some simple questions and deal with some of the crap that I hear before deciding on my level of involvment. YITS Cliff
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Ballrollers
121 posts
Oct 27, 2005
8:30 AM
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Listen, Scott.I don't know why you're gettin' all bent outta shape and acting so paranoid. I am just trying to ask some simple answers to some simple questions about crap that I am hearing, before I decide at what level I will get involved. So deal with it! Remember, that for every guy like me who has the courage to put it on the line and ask the tuff questions, there are probably a hundred guys that hear this stuff and do nothing about trying to determine whether or not there is any basis for fact for the rumor. Those guys just go on talking about it to other flyers, and for some, it becomes a reason not to fly. I know that a part of you doesn't care about that and is only interested in an organization that caters to the elite, die-hard flyers, but I have tried to remind you that financially, the WC depends on a number of back yard flyers and newbies to sustain it. Its future depends on expanding and attacting new flyers. I, too, have the best interest of the WC at heart in this discussion. Would you rather have guys like me, who will be invloved at some level, trying to learn more about how the WC operates and trying to get to the bottom of the crap, or just continue spreading the rumors as fact, thus undermining the World Cup? So it does no one any good for you to shoot the messenger, here! Take advantage of this opportunity to set the record straight, that is, unless the WC does not have its house in order. In that case, know that the flyers are aware of it and fix it. That's all. It's not personal, buddy. YITS Cliff
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Nov 09, 2005 9:43 AM
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Ballrollers
123 posts
Oct 27, 2005
1:20 PM
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Scott,
I am sorry that you feel attacked, or that some foul or evil intention is at work, and I apologize if I insulted you in any way. That was not my intent. As I posted on another thread, these questions are not meant to discredit you or Kevin nor your work as WC RDs. I am trying to show that the information pipeline being used has its drawbacks and there are men who are being left out of the loop who want a voice. Since this is the first test of the WC fly rules and how the system of change functions, it is to be expected that flaws will show up. When the votes are tallied, if each and every region does not register a vote, is that a flaw in the system? I think so. When one region did not know there was a WC comittee vote going on; when one region voted without representing the majority opinions of that regions flyers; when one man verbally abuses and intimidates another man during open committee discussions because of his opinion, the system is in need of some repairs. I certainly don't advocate throwing out the hard work that has been so productive; just continuing to work on it instead of saying, "We're there." It's an observation, Scott, not some evil intent. You can chuck it as irrelevant sniveling, or you can look at the possibilities. You can berate me for questioning what you meant by "Who needs them" when you referred to the NBRC. I was just trying to understand where you were coming from. You can accuse me of never talking pigeons in an effort to discredit me. I would remind you that I have been in the forefront of every "pigeon discussion" with regard to history, performance, and color, in my family of rollers. I have written several articles for the NBRC journal about "pigeons". That doesn't make me anything special. But it makes me not guilty of your charges. Pardon me while a snivel a little more while I'm at it. You guys gripe and complain about guys not getting involved in the hobby, and flyers not caring and not voting and not staying informed. Then you get a guy like me who does care; who is actively engaging in every phase of the hobby since my return to breeding and flying rollers a couple years ago; obtaining the best family of rollers I can find from guys winning local, regional, national and international flys, joining and holding office in local clubs and participating in flys accross several states, participating in local and national flys, joining the NBRC and attending the national meeting, contributing to the roller publications, participating in the discussions in the lists, trying to stay informed about what is happening in oraganized rollerdom, giving away rollers to other guys trying to get started. And what do I get from you for my trouble and for asking difficult questions? I get called a mongrel-breeder; get told I have evil intent; get told I am inciting a rift; get accused of being interested only in discussing politics rather than pigeons. I gotta admit. It makes me wonder why you are over-reacting and what the heck you are hiding or being so sensitve about. You dish it out with the best of 'em. No wonder guys stay home and fly out of their back yards! It takes a thick skin to deal with the likes of you! LOL It's a good thing my self esteem does not depend on positive feedback from you! Heh heh heh. OK, I'll quit beating a dead horse. I'm OK about all of this. But I didn't want to leave you with any hard feelings. I respect your committment to the breed and to the hobby, my friend. YITS Cliff
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
537 posts
Oct 27, 2005
2:04 PM
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Is the rules that are posted on the WC website the current rules or have some of them been changed? David
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Ballrollers
125 posts
Oct 27, 2005
2:54 PM
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David, I believe the fly rules are correct, but a few of the RDs listed are incorrect. YITS Cliff
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knaylor
5 posts
Oct 27, 2005
6:03 PM
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Cliff, I really do not think that Scott is getting bent. He is one of my very best friends and anyone that knows use can tell you that we have two different personalities. I really do not like to get into arguments that will not ever be resolved and Scott can get a little fired up at times but for good reasons. I understand everything that he replied and he has a good reason to feel that way. I think what has been happening with the commitee is that some things are not going the way some guys like so they get outside people involved and start to stir the pot and spread rumors. Do you think this is good for the sport?? There are also other fliers(one in my area) that goes behind the RD's back and tries to get things changed. Scott and I have both been RD's for 5 years and I know that there are othe RD's with as much time in. I really do not hear them complain too much. It seems to be the new guys that come in and want to change everything. I could go on and on but I will not. If you plan to be an RD I advise you to really think about it. It takes time, money and alot of patience. Plus you have to be a babysitter to make the fly be successful. Kevin
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Ballrollers
126 posts
Oct 28, 2005
9:09 AM
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Kevin, Thanks for the additional background. I can understand your concerns. I agree that spreading rumors is not good for the sport. That is precisely what motivated me to bring up the issues and questions rather than perpetuating them. I am not sure it was helpful or that they were all answered, however. It seems that there was more over-reaction to the concerns I expressed and personal inuendo as opposed to laying things to rest with the facts, which was my intent. It's almost like you're telling us if we want to support the WC, participate, shut up, don't ask questions, trust the people running the show to do the right thing in our behalf. I'm not trying to cause trouble, but I do have a problem with that. Thanks, again for your input. YITS Cliff
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
223 posts
Oct 28, 2005
12:29 PM
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That's not the way I read his post Cliff.
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knaylor
6 posts
Oct 28, 2005
5:52 PM
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Cliff, some of the comments that you made proves that there were messages from the commitee that were forwarded to you. That is what is very concerning. I would like to know who did it????? You had to have seen the messages by what you said. That is one of the things that got Scott fired up. It also is tough for you to critisize when you have just began the sport. If you get more involved you will see what we are talking about. Also we are not saying shut up or anything like that. We just want people to have faith in the chosen RD's to make the right choices. Besides I know I have told you to contact your own Rd and talk to him. Thanks, Kevin
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Ballrollers
128 posts
Oct 31, 2005
7:26 AM
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Brian, Well maybe I'm reacting to his reaction or reading into his response. As I said before, I have gotten few concrete answers to questions I asked.
Kevin,
I am in communication with lots of guys who have lots of issueswith the WC. No I have not seen any messages. But I was told that the messages could be provided if the truth was challenged, if need be. I repeat, not all reigions were contacted, some RDs didn't know anything about a vote taking place, others were intimidated and sumitted to verbal abuse by overbearing, profane commitee members. Other countries are PO'd as well. I'm just asking why the World Cup is being run this way and if that is the direction I should expect it to continue.
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knaylor
9 posts
Oct 31, 2005
6:05 PM
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Again Cliff why are not all the RD's voting??? Are they new Rd's and have not notified Ron of the change or are they on the committe list and not receiving emails???? The truth is the other contries are upset because we are running the W/C fair and not letting them run it the way they want to. There was some verbal abuse on the list(which we could not control at the time) but it was taken care of. The person that was abusive was taken off the list permanantly. The W/C is stonger than it has ever been, ans just recently (the past few years) the Rd's have has an imput in decisions. HOW WERE RD's INTIMIDATED?????? Let me know, Kevin
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Mongrel Lofts
67 posts
Oct 31, 2005
9:05 PM
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Kevin,
If Cliff really wanted to help the WC and learn how it works, he would have taken his accusations and question's to you guys and the RD's private. Kevin, this guy is bad news for anything good in this sport. He runs the WC down on open forums for a reason.. Just read his last few posts in this thread and learn. BE WISE! This is the kind of bad apple that makes the whole barrel go bad. Best thing you can do is quit, just ignore him. Nothing you discuss with Cliff will come of any good. He really don't want it to.Just some friendly advice from a friend Kevin.. Mongrel Lofts
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J_Star
93 posts
Nov 01, 2005
5:00 AM
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Kenny,
I kind of disagree with you in this regard. The questions Cliff was asking were legit. The only thing I did not like is his last paragraph when it sounded personal and sounded as personal attack. Which I am sure he did not intend to, but sounded like it. I did not participate in the WC, therefore, I stayed out of the discussion. We need people like Cliff who can think of ways to enhance a current process to be better if there is a need. Was it better if it was taken offline? Yes, it would have been addressed more properly. From looking at cliff's background from 'Who's Who' he is a very educated man and a very analytical minded.
It is not secret of how some roller men views the SC breeders or of the majority of them as none participant in FF or WC. Maybe I am wrong. But when you have a body of people who don't participate, they look for every excuse why they don't. More often the reason is because of politics. I am sure he has been influenced by a few good men who just have bad views or experiences with FF or the WC.
Cliff, by all means, please ask those tough questions. They will bring us, the new people to the sport, to think and look at completion rules and how they apply. I do agree with Scott that the WC is the big fly and only the best kits should be in the winner circle. The rules should be even across the board for all to feel that they are in the same level ground as others. So please, don't be discouraged by asking such tough questions and I want you to know that there are ears that are listening. It is best that you and Scott discuss the situation and the hard feelings offline and come to a resolution as friends. The way it should be. I am sure his phone number is listed in the NBRC bulletin. I really did not want to engage myself in this one, but sometimes it is appropriate to do so. Thanks.
Jay
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knaylor
10 posts
Nov 01, 2005
5:28 AM
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Kenny, thanks and I agree with you 100%. The more I though about it it hit me. We were argueing with someone that has never flown and is going by hearsay that other people have told him because they didn't get their way. Kevin P.S. Hows 589?
Last Edited by knaylor on Nov 01, 2005 5:29 AM
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Mongrel Lofts
68 posts
Nov 01, 2005
5:38 AM
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Hey Kevin,
589 is doing good. I have raiesed 3 rounds from her. I plan to put her on one of my Big Dummy Cocks first thing in the spring and then bring her home.
So how is 84? YOu do know that hen I left for you to use is one of the last off the old #71 cock that still hits right? She is the mother and grand mother to many of my birds and even a few of Scotts. Scott can tell you what he has with her in the back ground.
I hope you put her to good use. I would snag a round or two from her and your best cock. Should pay off later. Mongrel Lofts
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motherlodelofts
426 posts
Nov 01, 2005
6:02 AM
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Keven, Kenny is right just ignore him , the sad part is this guy has just stepped into the sport and has let someone out there that is working hard to undermine the W/C influence him , or maybe he just thrives on such things, it is hard to say.
Like Kenny said though if this guy really wanted to know whats going on and had the best interest of the W/C in mind he would have dealt with it in private , but not even sure that would have helped as he seems bent at running the W/C down in public and inciting rift , it is obvious that this guy has fallen in with a bad element and is bad news.
Keven he will somehow use what we say here and turn it around to be used against the W/C just as he has done with whatever bits and pieces was forwarded to him , so it is best to leave it alone , for so little comunication he sure seems to know a lot of bits and pieces for someone that isn't even involved.
But there has been some good come out of this as we now know that this is going on and we can be pro active in dealing with it.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Nov 01, 2005 8:32 AM
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motherlodelofts
427 posts
Nov 01, 2005
6:11 AM
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Jay since when are accusations considered questions ?
Jay don't let people like this influence you as his intent is to do just that.
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J_Star
95 posts
Nov 01, 2005
6:57 AM
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Scott,
I've been on this forum for a long time and have not been influenced by any such one person. I do respect all the parties in concern. I hate to see such conversation ends up with a sour note. I truly don't believe that was the intent from reading the posts multiple times. But who am I to make such claims? It did concern you and you should handle it the way you see best fit.
Please, I urge you all to reread the posts again and eliminate the emotions out of them and I am sure you will reach a completely different understanding and a reasonable conclusion.
I know from the bottom of my hart that all the commissioners, RDs and the others who are working for the WC sport are doing a great job and their intent is to make it better and better and an even ground to all flyers. No doubt in my mind, also you might need to consider maybe evening the communications grounds for all RDs and others who represent the flyers. It really sounds to me that some communications might have dropped. If it did, maybe a correction would be appropriate but if that did not happen then don’t mind me at all. This is only my views based on the conversations that were carried out in those posts. I did not do any research or analysis on what is going on and I care not to. I stay out of politics and religious discussions and arguments. I always believe that if you want to win an argument, simply avoid it.
Best of luck to all. Thanks.
Jay
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Ballrollers
129 posts
Nov 01, 2005
10:02 AM
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Jay, Thank you for your fresh perspective and unbiased opinion. It's interesting to see the difference in one's view when one has no axe to grind or interests to preserve. I have tried to ask legitimate questions raised by honest men who have been in the sport for decades, fly in the competitions on local, regional and national basis, and have some very valid concerns. These guys referring to them as a bad element is sad. It is not me to that the representatives of the WC have to answer, it's to the guys with concerns and to the many other guys that are deciding whether or not to drop out or to begin flying in WC competition. Thanks for seeing the truth in this discussion, Jay, and for expressing it.
Kevin, You say I am going on heresay only....Well it may have started out that way. But the facts keep stacking up as we find more regions and more RDs that are out of the communication loop. It's only about improving communication. That's all. What's with all this privacy and secrecey? Hell, somebody else on a public forum may have a great idea on how to improve things a little. Its called C-O-M-M-U-N-I-C-A-T-I-O-N guys. And it's not a bad thing, unless someone has something to hide, that is. Now you guys have me wondering!
Scott, KGB, You guys never cease to amaze me. You see a guy compete with a family of rollers that has a 50-75 year old color modifier and you see a conspiracy to bring the breed down. A guy like me asks some questions about how things are done in the World Cup, and calls you attention to some problems, and you see a conspiracy to bring down the World Cup. I simply cannot believe the paranoia and conspiracy you see around every corner. Amazing! This ain't that hard guys. The very reason, as I have said before, that I started this thread is because I want to see the World Cup succeed. Take it private you say? I'd be happy to. However I did not receive one request or private e-mail from any of you to do so. This has never been about inciting a rift or bringing down the WC as I keep saying.
All I know is if there was one region that did not have representation on the WC committee, that's a problem. I have told you of two examples where the regions had no RD at the WC committee and did not have a vote. It was your responsibility to see that all these RDs with computers were sent invitations. I am sorry to have to tell you that you missed mine, and he (and others) did not even know there was a session going on. He actually thought his only responsibility was to find a judge and schedule the fly dates. And he has been in the sport for 35 years! So the flyers in these regions were left out of the decision-making process. That's a problem, and you can fix it, easily.
Why is there all this concern that I have seen actual WC posts? Shouldn't all flyers have access to the posts and workings of the WC committee? Doesn't it act in behalf of the WC flyers? Shouldn't there be a simple "roll-call" vote to see what regions are not represented? Or do you even care? It should be a simple matter for the WC to contact the missing RDs and regions and see what is up. E-mail alone simply is not working for all regions. Computers crash and not all RDs have computers. What's wrong with registered mail to locate and contact all RD's on such important matters as votes to change fly rules? The Official WC web site has incorrect information in regards to the RDs. Whose responsibility is that? Where is it in the WC by-laws/constitution that tells RDs what there responsibilites are and how they are to contact the WC? My concern is that the WC seems to have no responsiblity to the flyers it serves. It is strictly an organizational observation on some things that need to be addressed, not an attempt to bring it down or point fingers at anyone! We can make the system work better; thus it will be more successful and become a first-class organization respected by all flyers, even internationally.
Working with foreign countries requires diplomacy. This attitude of "my way or the highway" when questions are asked will not make for a healthy fellowship with these regions. When I speak of intimidation on the committee, I am talking about the fact that few roller men are confrontational enough to raise objections when things get out of hand. (And I guess we can see "why" just from the reaction and intimidation that I have gotten, here.) This sort of defensive and combative posturing in response to any questions about how this committee operates or decisions that have been made in the past is in itself intimidation. These men, or a new RD, especially if they disagree with something , or if he has no "credentials",will not stand much of a chance getting his point across on the committee in the face of this kind of intimidation.
I came to Scott and to Kevin to help me understand why my RD, and others across the country, were not part of the decision-making process. I got few answers, in fact you got upset with my questions. And you don't even seem to be concerned that my RD, and others, were not a part of the process. What am I to think? YITS Cliff
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Nov 01, 2005 10:15 AM
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dave
23 posts
Nov 01, 2005
10:13 AM
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I'm new to this hobby and this bickering is not going to help anything. I think that guys got to be proactive and not reactive. Look at this as a learning experience. This is starting to look like the rap culture, west coast vs. east coast lol.
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big al
158 posts
Nov 01, 2005
3:20 PM
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Hi gentlemen,
Mind if I comment?
It's my hope that after this message this thread will amend itself.
First I'd like to thank each and every individual that unselfishly serves this hobby in anyway. All administrators and officers governing all flys including W.C. and F.F. It's clear that you have a commitment to improving the hobby.
Unfortunately administration in any area of life has challenges. Look at us all for a moment. We range from Doctors, Lawyers, Contractors, Plumbers, Landscaper's, Administrative personnel, Law Enforcement, former inmates, current inmates, unemployed, living well, living in poverty, great health, and poor health with one thing in common...
We are all interested in a hobby with a beautiful creature that doesn't have the sense of June Bug on crack! LOL!! Yet here we are trying to organize world wide events with all of this diversity and varying levels of understanding. That's not an easy task.
As with many sports and hobbies, many of us are driven to a certain level of success for various personal reasons. Pouring out blood, sweat, time, sacrifice and patience for something you believe in, can make us sensitive to feedback that may appear to lack constructive content.
I think those of us in that position would do well to take a deep breath to remind ourselves of this when we hear certain things being said. Many times individuals are the only ones who know the extent of their efforts, so it's easy to want to defend what you take pride in. We have to be careful that our sensitivity does not overtake our good character.
I can't speak for Scott but I don't think he was trying to mount a personal attack on anyone. It appeared to be an attack on how, when, where and why certain things are being addressed. Under these conditions Scott's concern would be understandable.
This site was designed to do nothing but promote the hobby of flying rollers while encouraging new people to join the sport. Most on this list would be in shock if Tony told you how many folks read these posts. :-) The few people that actually post don't even come close in numbers to the folks that visit.
New fliers and visitors want to get away from the hussle and bussle of everyday life and have fun and learn from this forum. I'm sure it leaves a bad taste in their mouths when they read threads of this kind. It serves no purpose to the new person looking to fellowship. Topics like these would be over their heads, and of no interest because nothing is being promoted or learned that will help them with actual flying.
In my very humble opinion, topics that deal with political subject matter should be redirected to the source via phone, fax, or e-mail. If there is trouble contacting them, this is clearly not the place to do it and open up sensitive dialogue that others could be discouraged or offended by.
I'm sorry for the long post I don't like doing them on these type topics but I felt it was needed.
You guys are a great bunch and I hope no one is offended by my post for that is not my intent.
Maybe this post will finally end certain type of dialogue that's harmful to us and the site.
The only heat we should see is in the air.----------
See you in the roll!
Big Al
"High Plains Spinner Loft"
Last Edited by big al on Nov 02, 2005 3:04 AM
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knaylor
13 posts
Nov 01, 2005
7:44 PM
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Kenny, I will foster her alot this year. I am going to put her on 580. And I have a really good krenzy cock out the skinny pair. Steve Loza is using him now but I am getting him back soon. I will get alot from her. All the birds are looking great. The 580 on the 385 hen has been a cant miss pair. Birds come in youg and really nice and stay that way. Kevin
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motherlodelofts
430 posts
Nov 01, 2005
8:26 PM
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Al good post !
Keven where is that #84 hen that Kenny left you ?
Scott
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knaylor
14 posts
Nov 01, 2005
9:19 PM
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Scott, I have her with my breeders.
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motherlodelofts
435 posts
Nov 03, 2005
10:27 PM
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Cliff I don't feel anything other sorry that "some" have put you in a bad position and have given you a bad attitude as far as this fly goes before you have even started , where you are right now is someplace that I have never had to experiance and there has been "nothing" but good and good memorys where this fly is concerned.
In short Cliff you have been "robbed" of a great thing where these birds are concerned , you are way to new to of done this to yourself on your own so you can't really be blamed, it is to bad.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Nov 03, 2005 10:37 PM
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Ballrollers
142 posts
Nov 04, 2005
9:55 AM
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Quite the contrary, Scott. I am an eternal optimist that the WC growing pains can and will be resolved, once guys are aware of and begin to address these problems; from the flyers, to the LADs, RDs, and the WC comittee. I am excited about participating next spring and fly my birds every day looking for those top 20 birds, though they are all '05s and still developing. The only thing that will rob me of anything will be the preds! LOL Jay has lost four out of eleven of his A-kit. Two of which he had promised me for breeders!!! Damn!! YITS Cliff
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motherlodelofts
442 posts
Nov 04, 2005
2:38 PM
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Sorry Cliff , but I see this as running about as well as "humanly" possible for a bunch volnteers, perfect ? of coarse not.
Good luck next year and I hope that you enjoy it.
A- team (11 birds ????) a little different out there , in most parts of this country and other countries that is considered a half of a team plus one LOL
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Nov 04, 2005 3:51 PM
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Ballrollers
145 posts
Nov 07, 2005
8:03 AM
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It is indeed a delicate task to educate the flyers without casting dispersions on the good men, many of whom may have been led astray. Some men are not really interested in what is happening, some are too easily swayed and don't really think for themselves. Some men just want to please the opinionated and intimidating individuals. Until the ranks of the RDs are filled with men of conviction and wisdom, things may not change in the WC. But it's not the men that are at the crux of the problem. It is the system, as I have outlined. To continue to improve the system will take time and committment, which appears to be lacking, at this point. So, there is much for me to think about before considering whether to become and RD. Perhaps it is better to work from within to make sure the other RDs no what their responsibilities are, how to stay abreast of the issues, how to cast their ballots, how to represent their flyers. But if we cause men not to participate, what have we gained? If others become disenchanted, then we are not helping the situation. That is not my intention. Life is too short, not to make each day as sweet as possible. YITS Cliff
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Nov 09, 2005 9:57 AM
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Mongrel Lofts
70 posts
Nov 07, 2005
10:15 AM
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Some men are not really interested in what is happening, some are too easily swayed and don't really think for themselves. Some men just want to please a few loud mouths. YITS CLIFF
Cliff,
Projecting on others, may help you see where your coming from. I think your finaly starting to understand who you are. Keep yelling loud and trying to please those who don't fly and look for reason to run down those that make the flys happen. Your the KING! Mongrel Lofts
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Ballrollers
149 posts
Nov 07, 2005
3:49 PM
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Ahhhhhh. I see. Pull something out of context and make it appear to mean something unintended by the one who said it. You're good at that aren't you, buddy? That's the KGB we all know and love! LOL Well, you are wrong again, unfortunately. You left out the most important point that I made,...."it's not the men who are at the crux of the problem, but the system". It's better organization that is needed, not, necessarly, better men. The men I am speaking for are not men who don't compete, as your wild guess missed the mark once again, but veteran flyers of many years who compete in all apects of the sport. There voice has been ignored, there vote not counted. As I have said before, Kenny, I will always be here to set the record straight when you attempt to distort the meaning of others in order to suit your own agenda, for the undiscerning reader. YITS Cliff
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Nov 07, 2005 4:02 PM
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knaylor
22 posts
Nov 07, 2005
5:49 PM
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Until the ranks of the RDs are filled with men of conviction and wisdom, things may not change in the WC.
Cliff what do you mean by this?????? Kevin
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motherlodelofts
450 posts
Nov 07, 2005
5:53 PM
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What does it sound like he means Keven ?
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Nov 07, 2005 8:58 PM
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