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World Cup & NBRC Fall Fly
World Cup & NBRC Fall Fly
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Mongrel Lofts
69 posts
Nov 03, 2005
11:17 PM
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I was thinking today, What would the sport of rollers be like today if not for the two big flys, World Cup and NBRC Fall Fly? We get to compete and compare the quality of our rollers to the best in the nation and the world. I mean really guys. Stop and think about what the World Cup and NBRC Fall Fly have done for our chosen breed, the roller!! I mean can you imagine what the guys from the 1950's, 60's and 70's would have done to be able to fly against the best in the world back in their day. Do you think they could even dream of a World fly? What an honor and privilege we have today to have two mega flys we can compete and compare our stock in. The best part, if you want to fly, you can fly. You don't have to be anyone special or known.You can pay your entry fee and your in the WC fly..
It really just BLOWS me away when I take the time to stop and think about the fact we are really able to have a World Cup fly. What kind of great men must we have to pull off such a fly? Man do we ever owe these guys a huge thank you for working for all of us..
Heck, the NBRC even added the 11 bird fly in the fall fly to get the guys back south flying in the fall fly. When many of the guys back in south complained they didn't fly the NBRC fly because they flew 11 birds. The guys in power voted to add the 11 bird fly in the Fall fly to bring them in. This is what I call rolling out the red carpet to include any and all flyers.
Guys, its an honor to fly in the big flys. Its unbelievable that for a small price, we can compete against the best in the world.
I'm really amazed when a person talks bad about these great fly's and there are men willing to listen!!!! The way I see it, If you want these fly's to be around when you get your birds ready to fly. If you want to see how your breeding and flying skills stack up against the nation and the world in your chosen breed, Rollers.. Then you should think twice, before being a part of the conspiracy to divide and drag the fly's down.. Join in and be a part of those who work hard to make the WC and NBRC FF the greatest fly's known in the Roller world.. Be part of the positive and great things going on in these fly's. Be a part in building the sport and fly's. Not a part in trying to drag them down..
Once again I ask,, Have you ever really stopped to think how great these two big fly's Really are? What they have done for the breed? Have you ever stopped to think how honored we are in our generation to be able to compete with the best in the nation and world with our rollers? These fly's are the first of there kind! In no other time in history has the roller had such wide spread fly's as the WC and NBRC FF. Never before, we are the first!!
Why would anyone bad mouth the greatest fly's in the world? Mongrel Lofts
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knaylor
18 posts
Nov 04, 2005
1:33 AM
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Kenny, very nice post!!!!!!!!!!!! Kevin
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
549 posts
Nov 04, 2005
3:26 AM
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Kenny. That has got to be the best post you ever wrote.LOL.
I agree.If it wasn,t for the NBRC 11 bird fly I would never even considered getting into comps.They may call it the Kidee fly but I think it is harder than the 20 bird fly to win.LOL. I really had a Good time competing in it this year.I just wished they had 2 of the NBRC Flys a year.Next year I may even fly in both the 11 & 20 bird kits.
As for the W/C I don,t know if I want to try it or not.My RD is a pusher and a friend so he will probably talk me into it if nothing more than to help out the region.LOL.David
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Ballrollers
139 posts
Nov 04, 2005
5:43 AM
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Good post, Kenny. It's good to "center" ourselves from time to time and see just how far we have come as a sport; and we have done so on the backs and hard work of many dedicated men. When I flew birds in the 60s and 70s it was strictly backyard stuff. We wouldn't have dreamed of a World Cup. As with any growing organization, there are growing pains. Shining some light on the areas that need attention will only strengthen it further. Do you think the World Cup will ever consider an 11-bird fly? If not, how come? YITS Cliff
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motherlodelofts
438 posts
Nov 04, 2005
6:27 AM
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Just think about how hard it was to initialy get these things structured to even get them off the ground in the first place , these flys have also brought so many together under one tent and have put birds in the air where they belong.
Cliff no you will never see the 11 bird , for one it would add to much to an already over demanding schedule.
Scott
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big al
175 posts
Nov 04, 2005
2:50 PM
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Kenny,
Well done sir!
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See you in the roll!
Big Al
"High Plains Spinner Loft"
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BR Rollers
21 posts
Nov 04, 2005
9:28 PM
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Very good post Kenny!
I am one of those flyers from the seventies you mentioned. I just got started up this year and havent had birds since 1979. I was amazed to walk from the seventies into todays Rollers and finding out there is a World cup and Fall fly!
We had a local Roller club and had regular club fly's only to show others what we could do with our kits and for some short lived bragging rights.
We had fun and shared our experiences with each other constantly. Thats how I learned the hobby.
I still find it hard to grasp that someone actually pulled off competition at a national and a World level! Unreal!
My hats off to all those who pioneered this great feat!
Hopefully in a few years, with a little luck, I to can say I was a participant in such a awesome event.
Yours in the hobby
Ronnie
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Mongrel Lofts
71 posts
Nov 07, 2005
10:33 AM
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I still find it hard to grasp that someone actually pulled off competition at a national and a World level! Unreal!
My hats off to all those who pioneered this great feat!
Hopefully in a few years, with a little luck, I to can say I was a participant in such a awesome event.
Yours in the hobby
Ronnie
Hi Ronnie,
Man I'm with you, it is really awesome to see how the roller competition has picked up over the years. I flew in my local club the CCRC in 1979 right up till the PRA had what they called the I-5 fly. That fly took in most of Northern and central Calif and we thought that was a big deal around 1988. Then comes along the WC and the NBRC flys. WOW!!
Welcome back to the best breed and sport in the pigeon world Ronnie,, Mongrel Lofts
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Mongrel Lofts
72 posts
Nov 07, 2005
11:12 AM
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Do you think the World Cup will ever consider an 11-bird fly? If not, how come? YITS Cliff
Hi Cliff,
The short answer is No. The reason is more complex. As you know I won the 11 bird national in 2004. It is a national fly and I fly any and all flys that come to my area.It takes a lot of hard work by a lot of men willing to do that work for free to pull them off. So I fly.
I consider getting to fly in these big fly's an honor and privilege. Winning the 11 bird fly was an honor and an accomplishment.
With that said Cliff, the WC is the SUPPER BOWL of the roller world. The 11 bird is a fun fly but it only takes one bird to score. It takes no team effort and the degree of challenge is just much less. Its just plain a simpler less challenging fly compared to the 20 bird fly. I don't see the WC ever including the 11 bird for this reason. Not to mention the cost of trying to judge twice the number of kits in the finals.
Cliff, for me the 11 bird is just a step below the 20 bird fly. Winning the 11 bird is a challenge, but not compared to the 20 bird. This is the Big Boyz fly. I kind of look at it like this..
11 Boy scouts 20 bird Marines
11 triple A baseball 20 world series
11 arena league football 20 NFL Foot ball
I think you get the point Cliff. Winning the 11 bird is an honor.It is a win in competition. You have the best 11 birds flown in that competition. Its just not the tuffest level of competition and will always take a back seat to the 20 bird comp. In my honest opinion.. Mongrel Lofts
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Ballrollers
147 posts
Nov 07, 2005
3:32 PM
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I appreciate your candid response, Kenny. As you know, there are many who disagree with your analogy about the 11-bird fly playing second fiddle to the 20-bird, and I happen to agree with them. Many have the opposite point of view; that it is virtually impossible for one human to judge quality, style and speed, or even depth ( the lesser of the four) in a 10-15 bird break, so most kits get judged on action alone, and simultaneous rolling. The tendency is that everything that goes gets scored. So if the kit is being judged accurately on speed, style, velocity and depth, it can best be done judging 11 birds or even five. (Thus the evolution of the 5-bird burnoff) One has to be much more picky about the birds in the 11-bird because that wing-switch or axle-roll will be more evident. Not so in the 20-bird. These faults can be obliterated by all the action. What the 20-bird has going for it is the WOW effect. There is nothing like seeing 10-20 birds in a break. It's an awesome and stricking sight to behold, and I have been privelidged to see some of the best on a regular basis with Jay Yandle's, Clay Hoyle's, Joe Bob Stuka's and Don Simpson's. So I'll play the game this spring, like the other guys. But it would be interesting to see international teams compete in a venue where quality, style, speed, and depth ruled. YITS Cliff
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Ballrollers
150 posts
Nov 07, 2005
4:37 PM
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KGB, Scott,
You guys are quite a tag-team!! You have both mentioned that one reason an 11-bird event would never fly (pun intended lol) in the World Cup was that it would over-burden the judging system. If each region chose to fly either in the 11 or the 20, but not both, would this still over burden the judging system? I have noticed 11-bird qulaifiers in regions that customarily have flown only 20-bird kits. I agree with you that the World Cup, as an event, is the Super Bowl of roller flying, but is there anything wrong in flying to determine what is the best 11-bird kit in the world? I agree that these are two very different contests, but good rollers are good rollers, flown in the 11 or the 20. You proved that, Kenny. Wouldn't you like to know if you had the best 11-bird team in the world? YITS Cliff
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knaylor
23 posts
Nov 07, 2005
5:55 PM
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Kenny, it seems that Cliff knows more about comp flying that you.LOL The W/C will never bring in an 11 bird fly. If they do they will be taking major steps backwards!!!!!! Kevin
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motherlodelofts
451 posts
Nov 07, 2005
6:15 PM
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Cliff for most of this country the 11 bird fly is nothing but a side show to the real show (20 bird). The World Cup is, well uh , the World Cup .
And yes the 20 bird fly is being scored on qaulity and depth, if a judge isn't or can't judge on that than he is a poor judge and he will be just as poor on an 11 bird kit.
The "wow" of a large break is not a "wow" unless it is a hard "qaulity" break by qaulity birds.
You may want to get a little experiance under your belt before addressing such posts.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Nov 08, 2005 8:08 AM
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Ballrollers
153 posts
Nov 08, 2005
9:13 AM
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Man, I try to have a decent conversation with one, and the other two jump in with their ridicule and insults and start bashing! Scott, I missed the part where "the rest of the country" appointed you as their spokesman to speak on their behalf as to the 11-bird. What you mean is that this is YOUR opinion. When one has few facts to back up a weak point of view, he must resort to sweeping generalizations about what "everybody else" thinks. As I mentioned, I notice that more and more regions are flying 11-bird comps that were, historically, predominantly 20-bird competitors. Pretending that quality can be scored equally in an 11-bird vs. a 20-bird is a farce. For you to condemn any judge as poor or inadequate if he cannot do so, demonstrates your lack of understanding of the problem. So much for "experience"......YITS Cliff
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Nov 09, 2005 9:37 AM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
243 posts
Nov 08, 2005
9:26 AM
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Cliff, I have yet to see any judge award quality different in an 11 bird fly versus a 20. Every single time I have seen the 11 bird kits judged, they are just judged for what is going on. I've seen way, way, way more judges be more strict on the quality in a 20 bird kit than I have in every 11 bird kit I have seen judged..Combined!. Sure, that doesn't sound right, but the 11 bird fly is not what it was intended to be. Personally I detest the 11 bird fly. But I am a high strung individual who hates to be bored, and those 11 bird flys simply bore the hell out of me.
One year we had one guy in our club win an 11 bird fly we had. Some of the birds rolled pretty good and pretty deep too. The thing was they were onezy, twozies, bird rolling here, bird rolling there. Afterwards he admitted he could never fly most of these birds in a 20 bird comp kit because they roll by themselves all of the time and from the back of the kit. So, in essence, he found a place to compete witih culls. Yes, I said culls because I those type of birds I just described, regardless of how good they roll, are pretty much culls in my opinion. In someone else's opinion, they might be gold. But I set my standards a little higher, high enough to where they meet the requirements for a more demanding competition such as the 20 bird.
I have no grief with anyone wanting to participate in an event that is suppose to warrant quality. That is really cool for them. It is just that I find those flys rather boring to watch and if I compete in one because our club chose to have one, I know that I can just fly some goofy birds that roll deep and sometimes get away with it. It is a sad reality, but they do get scored when in fact they should have their necks stretched. Again Cliff, I can understand you trying to justify yours and your friend's position on that particular fly. But you have to realize that many of us don't feel the same way you do about it and have never, ever seen the birds in an 11 bird fly judged to any higher standard than what is judged to in most 20 bird flys (crazy, wild, blind, loose judges excluded..LOL)
Brian.
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
555 posts
Nov 08, 2005
12:12 PM
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Scott. Why is the same Master Flyer points awarded for the 11 bird fly and the 20 bird fly?And the regional winner points are the same even in the W/C. I would think that the 20 bird fly would have higher points especially in the W/C.Not that I will ever live long enough to get my 750 points but just wondering why.I for one enjoy the 11 bird fly and it will always be my Number 1 fly when competing.However I may fly in the W/C this spring just to have something to tell my grandkids.LOL. David
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Ballrollers
155 posts
Nov 08, 2005
2:05 PM
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Excellent point, David! If there were really any difference in skill level or difficulty, why would they not award different Master Flyer points?
Brian,
You are an experienced competitor. Why do men in your area of the country continually find negative things to say about the 11-bird fly? Is it because the 11-bird flyers say that the 20 bird kits are boring or cannot be judged accurately with regard to quality? I am not saying that the judges award different quality points for the 11 vs the 20. I'm talking about the difficulty for humans to perceive and evaluate the simultaneous performance of 15-20 birds simultaneously. I think the 20-bird is a great fly, a great way to show the unison performance characteristics of the roller. Many fine men support the 20 bird kits. It is an excellent way to compete with rollers, but it is not the only way.
You make it sound like you have never seen a good 11-bird kit, and we know that is not the case. So it's hard for me to understand why you would base your opinion about the 11-bird on a flunkie kit you had experience with.
The flyers who fly 11 bird kits are no different from the men who fly 20 bird kits. (In fact many men are flying in both.) Both groups are, more often than not, NBRC members, support the hobby club by purchasing bands from the NBRC, go to the NBRC conventions, vote for NBRC officers, despise the air sharks, have wives and families, and are obsessed with flying performing rollers. It appears that the NBRC has come a long way in bringing attention to all aspects of flying performing rollers. Maybe, after a few more decades, the WC will see that including, instead of excluding, flyers is a better way. YITS Cliff
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
246 posts
Nov 08, 2005
4:14 PM
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It's cool Tony, Cliffs comments are his justifiable opinion, and I will answer his questions as best I can based on my opinion.
cliff wrote:
You are an experienced competitor. Why do men in your area of the country continually find negative things to say about the 11-bird fly? Is it because the 11-bird flyers say that the 20 bird kits are boring or cannot be judged accurately with regard to quality?
CLIFF, I CAN'T SAY WHY OTHERS MIGHT FEEL THE WAY THEY DO, BUT AS FOR ME, I PERSONALLY FIND THE 11 BIRD FLYS VERY BORING. THIS IS MY HOBBY, AND THEREFORE, MY LONE OPINION. DOES THAT IMPLY THAT OTHERS SHOULDN'T CHOOSE TO FLY IN THE 11 BIRD FLY? CERTAINLY NOT. IT IS THEIR HOBBY AS WELL AND THEY CAN FREELY CHOOSE TO PARTICIPATE IN ANY WAY THE SEE FIT. PERSONALLY WATCHING A KIT FLY AROUND WITH SINGLE BIRDS ROLLING HERE AND THERE, USUALLY NOT BETTER THAN I WOULD SEE IN A GOOD 20 BIRD KIT JUST DOESN'T LIGHT MY FIRE. I KNOW OF SEVERAL GOOD FLYERS WHO FEEL THE SAME WAY. ARE THEY THE MAJORITY? NO. IS IT THEIR OPINION? CERTAINLY.
I am not saying that the judges award different quality points for the 11 vs the 20. I'm talking about the difficulty for humans to perceive and evaluate the simultaneous performance of 15-20 birds simultaneously.
AND THAT WILL ALWAYS BE THE CASE CLIFF, THERE IS NO OTHER WAY AROUND IT. WE ARE HUMAN AND KIT COMPETITIONS ARE A SUBJECTIVE SPORT. THE PRECISION THAT SURROUNDS THE DAILY ASPECTS OF OUR LIVES, THOSE WE HAVE BECOME ACCUSTOMED TO, ARE SIMPLY NOT A VIABLE RESOURCE IN THE HOBBY OF KIT COMPETITIONS. I THINK MOST REALIZE THAT AND IN A UNIQUE SORT OF WAY, THE INDIVIDUAL PERSCEPTION OF THE PERSON ASKED TO GIVE HIS OPINION TO THE BEST OF HIS ABILITY FOR 20 MINUTES IS ONE OF THE MOST FASCINATING THINGS THAT ULTIMATELY IS WHAT REALLY BINDS THE SPORT OF KIT COMPETITIONS.
I think the 20-bird is a great fly, a great way to show the unison performance characteristics of the roller. Many fine men support the 20 bird kits. It is an excellent way to compete with rollers, but it is not the only way.
I AGREE, WE CHOOSE WHAT WE WANT TO PARTICIPATE IN.
You make it sound like you have never seen a good 11-bird kit, and we know that is not the case. So it's hard for me to understand why you would base your opinion about the 11-bird on a flunkie kit you had experience with.
CLIFF I BASE MY OPINIONS OF THE 11 BIRD FLY NOT ON FLUNKIES, BUT REALITY AS I SEE IT. WATCHING 11 BIRD KITS GIVES ME LITTLE SATISFACTION. I SEE FEW IF ANY BETTER BIRDS IN AN 11 BIRD KIT THAN I DO IN A GOOD 20 BIRD KIT. IN MOST CASES, THERE ARE ONLY BUT A FEW GOOD BIRDS IN AN 11 BIRD KIT REALLY PUTTING UP THE SCORES, AND WATCHING THEM ROLL HERE AND THERE IS ONLY GOOD FOR ME FOR A FEW MOMENTS. OF COURSE, HAD I HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO SEE KGB'S KIT WHICH WAS BREAKING BIG THE ENTIRE TIME FROM WHAT I'M TOLD, I MOST ASSUREDLY WOULD HAVE ENJOYED OBSERVING THAT!
The flyers who fly 11 bird kits are no different from the men who fly 20 bird kits. (In fact many men are flying in both.) Both groups are, more often than not, NBRC members, support the hobby club by purchasing bands from the NBRC, go to the NBRC conventions, vote for NBRC officers, despise the air sharks, have wives and families, and are obsessed with flying performing rollers. It appears that the NBRC has come a long way in bringing attention to all aspects of flying performing rollers. Maybe, after a few more decades, the WC will see that including, instead of excluding, flyers is a better way.
I AGREE, THE NBRC IS SUPER STRONG AT THE MOMENT AND ATTRACTS ROLLER FANCIERS FROM ALL WALKS OF LIFE AND ENTHUSIASM. I HAVE NO DOUBT THAT THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE 11 BIRD FLY HELPED TO STIMULATE GROWTH BY INDIVIDUALS WHO MIGHT NOT HAVE TAKEN PART IN THE FIRST PLACE. I THINK DAVID IS A GOOD EXAMPLE OF THIS. NOW HE IS HOOKED AND THOUGH HE PROBABLY DOESN'T FEEL IT YET, I EXPECT WITHIN A FEW YEARS WE WILL SEE HIM FLYING IN THE BIG 20 BIRD FLY. I'LL EVEN BET ON IT.LOL.
KEEP IN MIND CLIFF, THE WC IS A TOTALLY SEPARATE ORGANIZATION FROM THE NBRC. THEY MAKE THEIR RULES AND THE NBRC MAKES THEIRS. THE WC IS ABOUT KIT COMPETITIONS.
BRIAN.
Last Edited by MCCORMICKLOFTS on Nov 08, 2005 4:18 PM
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fhtfire
243 posts
Nov 08, 2005
4:29 PM
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Cliff,
Can I ask why you are so wound up about the 11 bird fly. You sound like you get offended or something. Like people are saying that you as a person are second best instead of seeing that the fly itself is second best. The fact is that the 11 bird fly is not the same as the 20 bird fly. Most competitors know that the "Big Show" is the 20 bird fly. It is confusing to me why some can't except the fact. Why are there elevedy billion more people entering the 20 bird fly. You even heard it from Kenny...The very man that one the fly last year say that it is not the same...that it is a step down. Nobody said that it was stupid or lame or retarded if you fly the eleven bird...Kenny even stated that he was honored and proud to win...but it still was not the 20 bird fly. I mean...yeah...it is cool to win the college World series...but ask any one of those players what they really want to do.....and they will all tell you that they want to win the PRO WORLD SERIES! Do you think they get offended if someone says..."the college world series is a very good accomplishment and the players can play some good ball....but the PRO WORLD series would be a dream come true...becasue the caliber of athletes (like pigeons) is better. Fact are facts and that is all they are. Man, Chile Davis for the Giants was good in the pros....but when he got bumped down to A ball because he was in a slump... and then once he was in A ball he started bringing his batting average back up to the point that he was leading his team....He said.....He was happy to be able to build his confidence back up and there are some very good players in A ball....but it is not the big show...that is were the true test is.....Do you honestly think that any and I mean any of the A ball Farm team players got all offended and started calling the press saying that A ball is just as good as The pro's....NOT IN YOUR LIFE>>>the fact is....the 20bird comp...is the BIG SHOW>>>the 11 bird fly is A ball...That does not mean that the people who fly the 11 bird fly are lower people....Geez man...Ken Billings is a stud in the pigeon world and he flew and won the 11 Bird fly....he was Chile Davis...for a year LOL!!!! He even sounded like CHile....respected the fly...but it was even close to the feeling of winning the 20 bird fly. I myself was going to enter My A team in the 20 bird kit. And pick my best Young Bird and B-team birds that were not good enough for the A team and enter the 11 bird fly too. Brian is right...I have some birds that just freak out when they get with the A team...they roll as good as any A team bird but when they get in a kit that large...they get so super charged that they can't keep up...or stay away from the kit because they get too excited.....but you put them in the B-team or with some less active birds and they look so damn good...that you almost want to put them back in the A team and then they freak out again...my friend....those are 11 bird kit birds....very good and deep rollers...there are just enough birds in the kit that they do not freak.....they are usually not as active as the A team....and they do not break together very good....(perfect 11 bird kit birds) Cliff I hope you get my point...I am not trying to offend you in any way. I do not think Brian, Scott or Ken were either. They were just stating the facts...that 99.999999999% of competitors...strive to win the Big Show....I mean Hell, Scott calls the 11 bird kit a kiddy fly....I do not see Ken freaking out.....and he won the damn thing...LOL!! Hell, I may put a kit of my good rolling...misfits That can't make the A team in a 11 bird kit and enter it next year just for kicks...why....because I like to watch rollers fly.....will I be nervous when I open the door....NOPE...will I be nervous when I open the door of my 20 bird kit...Hell yes...that is were my time goes to train the best kit of rollers that I can. So...nobody is trying to say that you are less of a fancier for liking the 11 bird kit better....I do not think less of Ken because he won it......I hope this was as clear as mud. It is just facts that the 20 bird kit is the Big fly...and the World CUP is the best of the best! I mean you win the fall fly 20 bird kit comp and hell yes your are excited...but if you win the World CUP...of man...you better get a me a resperator! Plus there are more kits entered in the 20bird fly World CUp...could you imagine the time and logistical nightmare to fly a 11 bird kit comp too....not worth it. Just losen up...nothing on this site is personal!!!!! As much as I respect both the Fall Fly and the World Cup......for me the Fall fly is a tune up for the W/C. I compare the two flys as for example....the World Games is the Fall Fly....the world cup is the Olympics.
rock and ROLL
Paul Fullerton
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
558 posts
Nov 08, 2005
5:00 PM
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Brian.I already have a kit of 18 fired up and ready.LOL. David
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Dave Szab
5 posts
Nov 08, 2005
7:01 PM
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Kenny,
Great post! All of us RD's work our asses off for these competitions. We try to keep the best interests of the breed, the flyers, and the judges in everything we do. These competitions have advanced the breed and fueled growth in our hobby....bottom line.
Dave Szabatura
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Ballrollers
158 posts
Nov 08, 2005
7:44 PM
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Tony, Did you get my private e-mail? I haven't heard back from you, though I have gotten many private e-mails, recently, in support of the questions I have been asking and the way I conduct myself on this list. So I think my e-mail is working fine. Let me know, or you can call me at (deleted). I think I know where you are coming from, but I assure you that there was absolutely no disrespect for, or aggression toward Brian in my questions, and from reading his response, and quite appropriately, no offense was taken by him. I have the greatest respect for Brian's knowledge, experience, and the friendly, respectful way that he communicates, even when he disagrees with someone. I expressed my questions wihtout any harsh or vulgar language and spelled each word correctly. What do you want from me, man? Brian made reference that he thought the 11-bird kits were boring, and I wanted to explore that in more detail. Why are you placing blame anywhere, when there is none? Brian did nothing wrong and neither did I. If you want a list where I and others play "follow the leader" and just go along with the prevailing attitudes and philosophies (perhaps of the west coast flyers??), well, it will not happen, I'm afraid. This list would be as boring as those 11-bird kits Brian has been watching! LOL! Seriously, though, I am not agitated in any way, just trying to understand the strong opinions posted by some...and I am entitled to my strong opinions, as Brian said. We have strong geographical and historical differences that seem to exist. It does not mean that anyone is wrong, just that we may feel differently about some things.. and we agree on some things. Only by communicating about our differences can we ever come to more agreement aobut how to conduct the future of the sport. The internet and these lists provide a valuable resource through which this communication can occur. I am glad to see that you started a thread to take a vote of these fine men to see how our discussions should be conducted. It may be what you want, personally, or it may not. You know me, Tony. I'm always game. YITS Cliff
Last Edited by rollerpigeon on Nov 09, 2005 6:00 AM
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Ballrollers
159 posts
Nov 08, 2005
7:53 PM
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Brian, Thank you for your response...for fielding my questions in a mutually respectful manner, and for taking no offense where none was intended. You answered straight up and to the point without disrespecting me for asking and I appreciate that. I believe that it will make the more timid on the list, less afraid to ask their questions. I also believe that I understand your perspectives a little better, now, and I respect your point of view, though we still disagree! LOL And yes, I, too, have pulled together my best 14 '05 birds so far for the WC next spring! If ya can't beat 'em, join 'em! Right! YITS Cliff
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Ballrollers
160 posts
Nov 08, 2005
8:40 PM
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Paul,
You are another guy on this list for whom I have great respect and admiration. I look forward to your posts and your perspectives, so I try to listen when you speak. You have a very pragmatic approach to breeding and flying rollers that I appreciate. I just don't understand why it is, that if I am not swayed from my opinion, and choose to defend my point of view, that I am viewed, by some, as taking it all personal. I will say it again, I am not offended by this 11-bird vs 20-bird discussion. Neither am I emotionally invested. I just expect those that defend their point of view so vehemently, to do so with logical points rather than, "Well this is the Mac-daddy of flies and the 11-bird is just a kiddie fly, and that's what anybody that counts flies." That just doesn't cut it. I am just defending my (not-so-uncommon) personal opinion that the quality of performance of spinning rollers can best be evaluated through an 11-bird fly rather than a 20-bird fly. Hell, run a poll on it Tony. The response will be an education for somebody (maybe me, maybe not), I feel certain. So far, we have heard no argument that has changed my mind. Many flyers believe that the World Cup would expand its participation to more flyers, if it were to award a World Champion 11-bird kit as well as a 20-bird kit...still the World Cup mind you, just another aspect to it. Why is that such blasphemy, Paul? And why are we being so damned for asking? Why must we just accept the fact that it will never be, as you recommend? (Remember, I am not upset, Paul LOL). Aren't some of us entitled to a difference of opinion, and isn't that a very healthy thing for the hobby, when it is expressed appropriately? I guess there is no way to convince you fine gentlemen, that to those that only fly the NBRC 11-bird fly, that it is the Superbowl of their pigeon flys. So why not include these men in the World Cup as an event? The 20-bird contest just does not interest everybody who wishes to compete. Why is that concept so hard to wrap your minds around? It does seem that if one does not agree with the proponents of the 20-bird fly that one is a step-child and will be treated as such. Yawn...I guess we'll just have to accept the fact that for now, the 20-bird kits are the wave of the future. The 11-bird flyers will have to fade into the night until the 11-bird kits rule. (I think this horse is dead LOL)I guess that will be a cold day down below when that happens, huh! LOL
YITS Cliff
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fhtfire
246 posts
Nov 08, 2005
9:43 PM
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Cliff,
I am sorry for thinking that you were taking it personally....Being a Captain at a fire dept....I write a lot of reports...so I key in on certain words...I also work with the public a lot and have to read people in stressfull and non stressfull situations....so that I can react to a situation in an instant. ....sooooo my only conclusion is that I may have keyed in on certain phrases or words and without you being in front of me to read the body language....I may have pulled the pin a little soon!!!! LOL!! Anyway...I by no means am trying to persuade you in any way of your opinion. Try working in a Firehouse...trust me I am used to people sticking to there guns...LOL! Ok back to pigeons! I was actually trying to let you know why people feel a certain way about the 11 bird fly....and I was trying to agree with you that it is still a good fly...like I said...I am going to put a motley crew kit together and have some fun with an eleven bird team to relieve the anxiety of the 20 bird fly...LOL!!! To be honest...I do not care one way or the other if there is or is not an 11 bird fly in the W/C...I just think that with the amount of kits and the miles between kits and then add 11 bird flys too....Holy sheep shit batman!!! that would be a long fly schedule..LOL!!....I really appreciate your nice comments about me....I feel honored....I just wish that I could have a little good luck just one time when it counts...so that I can have the Scores to throw around.....LOL!!! I can't get a break man!! Every fly that I have had since competing has been screwed up...25 mile per hour winds....Lose my whole A team to the fog.....Fly with Scotts birds he loaned me after receiving them 2 months before the cup....and in those two months...I have to try and home them...Hell I lost 10 birds he gave me just homing them...then get them in shape...then try and figure them out...because his strain is different then mine..LOL! But it did feel good that on the first day of our regional fly...that there was a lot of chatter......that Suday was going to be a battle between the Master Chuck Roe....and the apprentice...little old me!....But.....thats ok...I told Chuck he was lucky that it was windy....because I was going to whoop him with his own Whip!!!...Anyway Cliff.....no harm no foul...sorry that I misread your words.....and thanks again for the nice words about me. I really try to know what I am talking about before I post...that is why I stay free and clear of some post...that I know nothing about....if you put a Grizzle and a Baldy together on a Friday with a full moon!...you may get a double Homzy@#$*) Grizzle Lace Mealy Checker Andy Milky Dunn cock 25% of the time and a Baldy Lace Cream Kakhi Barless sonbitch 75% of the time and it will carry Brown and Indigo ash red check who does it...get my drift...I am a retard when it comes to that stuff....because I have never really cared about that stuff...Hell I have a 1 legged bird in my A team!!! You know the ROller disability Act!!! I am an equal opputunity flier...LOL OK I am done with the 11 bird topic....Hey cliff...just fly both 11 and 20...that way you get the best of both worlds!
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Ballrollers
162 posts
Nov 08, 2005
10:05 PM
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Thanks for helping to clear the air between us, Paul. I appreciate the fact that you were concerned enough to do so. As much as Scott and I go at it, and disagree on many fronts, I am jealous that you have a pair of his birds to breed from. We both respect his committment to performance. Yep, I plan to do just that, Paul, fly the 11-bird and the 20-bird. Now, just tell me how you get 20 '05 birds to start performing in concert!! LOL YITS Cliff
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Velo99
145 posts
Nov 09, 2005
5:13 AM
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Cliff,
Like you I haven`t flown in a competetion YET. I do have an opinion on this subject as well. I feel that the 11 bird fly is a warm up for the big flys. I would use it as a tool to get to know how the system works. How to prep and select birds for a fly without having to pick a full kit of birds which some smaller op`s may not have. Some of the guys out west who are decimnated by pred`s may have no choice but to fly the 11. There are certain circumstancees where the 11 is a lifesaver to some of the competetivce natured flyers here.
As far as adding it to the W/C, I concur with the general concensus that it would be overload in an already hectic program.
YITS
V99
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motherlodelofts
456 posts
Nov 09, 2005
6:56 AM
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Dave thats a good question on the master flyer points, it is just a standard that they went accross the board with.
W/C finalists compete against twice as many when compared to the NBRC 20 bird , and the NBRC 20 bird finalists compete against twice as many finalists as the 11 bird due to there are twice as many flyng the 20 bird , it "is" because it "is" LOL.
The master flyer points for regionals in the big flys are based on number entered for the region so all of that is apples for apples.
Cliff is right in the fact that more and more regions are flying the 11 bird also with thier 20 bird , my own region being one of them.
The biggest reason for that is that you can fly two kits in the regional , if you fly (two) 20 bird kits you cannot use any of the same birds twice , obviously fielding two "good" teams of completly seperate birds is difficult, so many only flew one team.
If you fly one 20 bird kit and one eleven bird kit you can use the same birds that are in your twenty bird kit for the eleven bird fly , so now more people are taking advantage of flying the eleven bird including your main flyers.
Plus the eleven bird is appealing to new flyers and those that don't breed many birds so they also are paying for an extra kit and flying the eleven bird also.
You are also seeing past winners of the twenty bird working on the eleven bird as it is another feather in thier cap.
The guy leading it right now (eleven bird) already has under his belt wins in the twenty bird NBRC and the W/C.
The guy in second has a NBRC 20 bird under his belt and so does the guy in fourth.
It wasn't but a couple of years ago that the eleven bird fly was not much more than dead weght but that seems to be changing as flyers are looking at flying both as it opens up a new window to hit the finals with and paying for one kit in each rather than just flying one twenty bird kit , this is also going to make the eleven bird fly much more competitive.
One of the problems of really good teams being flown in the eleven bird is the score keeper being able to keep up with score,bonuses ect. for each ind. bird , under a hot team you can get over whelmed real easy.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Nov 09, 2005 6:57 AM
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Ballrollers
163 posts
Nov 09, 2005
8:26 AM
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Tony, No, I don't think it's the Mr. Cleaver syndrome working. It is the result of straightforward, respectful communication and honest responses by both Brian and Paul without attacking someone for having a different opinion from theirs, and now even Scotty seems to have been bitten by the bug! LOL Good post, Scotty. Thanks for the background of the evolution of the 11-bird, especially in your area.
To everyone, it is so much easier for us to consider each other's point of view more objectively when the barbs and slams are left out. YITS Cliff
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Nov 09, 2005 8:28 AM
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motherlodelofts
458 posts
Nov 09, 2005
8:52 AM
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Cliff my other post in this thread was nothing more than honest opinion and there was slam there at all.
I did go back on one of the other threads and delete where I called you a jerk though and did so on my own , so yes Mrs Cleaver stepping in does have an effect.
Scott
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Ballrollers
164 posts
Nov 09, 2005
9:11 AM
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V99,
You said that you agreed that adding an 11-bird event would overload an already hectic schedule. If each region decides which contest they wish to compete in, either the 11 or the 20, but not both, wouldn't there be no added judging duties or complexities involved? I don't see this as a valid reason for not adding the 11-bird event to include more flyers. Why should we limit it to only a more limited number of flyers? Actually I haven't seen any valid reasons except anecdotal comments based on resistance to change more than anything concrete.
Scott, Thank you for removing the name-calling post. I appreciate the jesture. I'll go back and see if I need to do the same. YITS Cliff
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Nov 09, 2005 9:34 AM
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dave
33 posts
Nov 09, 2005
9:23 AM
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I think that even if a region decides to fly only the 11 bird then it is no longer a WC atmosphere when only 1 region is flying. You are not competing against the world but our own region. You can do that at a regional level to see who has the best 11 bird team. To make it work it all of the countries involved got to fly the 11 bird team. If you don't have all the countries involved then you will just be adding another NBRC 11 bird team fly within the US.
Also, you run into the problem of judges that are not fimilar with the 11 bird rules. For example, I think Heine will judge the next WC. Do they fly that where he is at? How about England, S. Africa, Australia, and the others outside of the US?
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
251 posts
Nov 09, 2005
11:55 AM
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As a kid, I always thought Joan Cleaver was kinda hot!
Brian.
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Ballrollers
165 posts
Nov 09, 2005
12:19 PM
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Dave, Good post. I can see that you gave this some thought. These are the same arguments that were brought up before the NBRC gave the 11-bird fly a chance to see what it would do on a national level. My crystal ball is as murky as yours is, but if the WC gave it a 5-year chance to prove itself.....who knows?! Just look at the growth of the 11-bird fly here in the US, once it was given a chance. Why are some individuals afraid of the same explosion in popularity of the 11-bird internationally? Some of the same reasons that Scott gave for its appeal here in the US could also be said at a world-wide level. No one will know unless it is given a chance. You men have to realize that the 20-bird fly is not the only way to compete and enjoy performing rollers. You asked about the other countries. Well, a good example is Germany. I am in regular communication with Jergen Von Ramin who helped establish the German Birmingham Roller Club this year. The Germans fly a 5-bird and an 11-bird in competition. He flys Masons, and he tells me that they never intend to fly in the World Cup because #1, they don't believe in the 20-bird as the best arena to judge the performance of rollers, and #2, because they believe they are so far behind in the development of simultaneous performance in 20 birds that it will take decades before they could become competitive. And #3, like other countries, they are resistant to letting the American way of doing things change the way they fly rollers. So why not have a WC fly in which they can participate without completely changing the way they breed and fly rollers, especially since so many flyers in other parts of the world, and the USA, agree? You see, my opinions and the questions that I raise are not based on my own narrow prejudices and inexperience as some on the list would have you believe. They are based on the concerns of national and international flyers that are expressed, but have fallen on deaf ears among those calling the shots in the WC; precisely the same scenario we have seen play out on this list. The more flyers we attract to our competitions, the better off the fancy will become and the stronger the World Cup will be in the long run. There must be another way to expand our horizons. YITS Cliff
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Nov 09, 2005 12:29 PM
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Velo99
147 posts
Nov 09, 2005
4:09 PM
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Cliff,
Let me reiterate this is the WORLD CUP. The Super bowl of rollers. I can sympathise the fact that the Germans are way behind. Why should we "dumb down " the rules to involve more flyers that know from the start they are not up to snuff?
I haven`t competed yet due to the competetion rules, three kit minimum to get a judge in my area here. I am not complaining,I am recruiting. I am helping another flyer here who is in bad health to complete his loft and get his program under way so he can compete. We will find a way. The 11 bird may well be an option in the FF.
The World Cup is the big time,let`s give it the honor and respect it deserves. I value and respect your input on many issues,but I feel this is an issue that would be detrimental to the W/C organization.
YITS
V99
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Ballrollers
166 posts
Nov 09, 2005
4:39 PM
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V99,
Boy, talk about American arrogance, Kenny! (Why do you post anonymously, by the way? Go ahead, put your name on those posts. Don't be shy! LOL) I don't think the Germans (or any other country) would take kindly to your reference that they are "way behind" just because they chose to fly a venue that they feel is superior to evaluate their performance. That is precisely the attitude that has some of the country's PO'd at the WC; the attitude of "it's our way or the highway" or, "American's are the only ones that know what's best" that comes accross in your posted opinion. Ya gotta remember, these birds came from England. LOL The 11-bird rules are in no way a "dumbed down" version of the 20-bird. They are different events. Nobody said anything about "dumbing down" any rules...the same rules that has been so successful in the USA 11-bird would at least be a place to start. Then let's get input from OTHER COUNTRIES to set the standards. That's the way to create a World Cup event. What good is it if a few Americans set it up and then ask other ocuntries would you like to come play our game? Fact is, they (other countries) are already asking about that!! I am still not hearing any valid reasons for not including it...just same ol' same ol'..."THIS IS THE WORLD CUP, CLIFF" stuff. Well it would still be the World Cup gentlemen, competing for the best 11-bird kit in the world. Got that? YITS Cliff
P.S. Nice work on the recruitment in your area. We certainly need more of that, accross the board.
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Nov 09, 2005 4:42 PM
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knaylor
27 posts
Nov 09, 2005
5:38 PM
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Cliff, the best way to get this going is once you have flown in the W/C talk to your RD and ask him to submit it to the committe. Ask to add an 11 bird fly. Personally in my opinion I do not think it will go. A little puzzled on why you are so intense on changing a fly that you have never competed in. The W/C was created to see who has the best 20 bird kit in the world. I believe the 20 comp is much much tougher than the 11 bird. Just my opinion, Kevin
Last Edited by knaylor on Nov 09, 2005 5:41 PM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
252 posts
Nov 09, 2005
6:00 PM
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Cliff, don't take this the wrong way, but man this is getting really, really old. Sometimes change and cure comes in small doses.
Brian.
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Velo99
148 posts
Nov 09, 2005
6:01 PM
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A little puzzled on why you are so intense on changing a fly that you have never competed in. The W/C was created to see who has the best 20 bird kit in the world.
Ditto Kevin,
Yits
V99
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motherlodelofts
460 posts
Nov 10, 2005
12:32 AM
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This is where we stand with the W/C today , it has grown to where our greatest challange is being able to manage the sheer size of this fly and to manage the great deal of time it takes to juge this monster of a fly, right now it takes a judge 3 solid monthes to judge this fly, luckily there has been people to step up to the plate and take three monthes out of thier lives to do this.
Cliff I am trying to understand your last post here and an over all view of your previous one's , are you trying to suggest that this thing is falling apart ? this fly is bigger and stronger than anything that anyone could have ever imagined , as for the twenty bird competition, Cliff that came with the breed from England, what came from here was the 1-2-3 rules where qaulity and depth is awarded to insure that "true" Birmingham Rollers are what rules the day in this competition.
The W/C has done more the breed and pulled the world together as far as this breed goes more than anyone could have imagined.
As far as the eleven bird fly Cliff , this fly is flown by a couple small pockets of fliers in this country and was added to the NBRC fly to pull those small pockets in ,and it is nothing more than a sideshow to the big show, if only one kit could be flown few would fly it , as it is it equels half of what the twenty bird is even with guys useing it as thier second kit.
The vast majority of this country flys twenty bird kits as does England,South Africa,Denmark, Holland, Canada,Australia, and that includes thier local flys.
If I understand your last post basicly you want to shit can what is a successful fly and start over with a second rate fly such as the eleven bird fly , is this correct ? Cliff all bullshit aside, your coming off like a nut !!!! first due to your inexperiance you don't have a clue of what is flown by the vast majority of flyers accross this country and the other parts of the world where this breed is flown in numbers.
second , if flyers do not want to step up to the plate and play with the bigboys then this fly is "not" for them, you asked a question of "how do you get 05 birds to work together ? "
Which I am assuming why you are on this eleven bird tangent , Cliff that is part of the learning process and no you are not going to field a good twenty bird kit of birds in your first year with your first kit of birds which is where you are right now.
It takes the right stock, the right management and hard work and it is not a simple task , some will never have what it takes to match up.
And no the W/C is not going to dummy down just to suit those that don't have it , it is totaly unrealistic to ever think that this will happen .
Cliff maybe instead of some unrealistic dream of tearing the W/C apart you might want to look at starting an international elven bird fly ,hell if you got it off the ground even I would fly it.
Cliff you just started last year with your first kit and you just now put "one" fly (eleven) under your belt . You are treading on some very dangerous ground here with accusations and slamming the W/C and those that make it happen in an open forum , you havn't been around long enough to make that many friends yet and it is looking like the ones that you are making are the whiners out there, sorry but you are beginning to look like a fruitcake.
Scott Campbell
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Nov 10, 2005 8:43 AM
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Velo99
149 posts
Nov 10, 2005
5:05 AM
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Cliff ,
This is what I was referring to in this exerpt from your post.
"#2, because they believe they are so far behind in the development of simultaneous performance in 20 birds that it will take decades before they could become competitive."
Your words not mine.
YITS
V99,Kenny H
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J_Star
104 posts
Nov 10, 2005
5:49 AM
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Well folks, think about it for a second B4 discarding the idea of including the 11 bird kits to the WC. I know I didn’t compete in the WC so I am not going to go overboard. But why the World Cup doesn’t creates an offshoot and call it ‘World Cup Juniors’ or ‘World Eleven Cup’ to bring in more participants and more money to the organization. The rules maybe need to be enhanced a bit for the 11 bird completion is that the breaks become a multiplayer. For example, take the average of the number of breaks rounded to the nearest number and multiply it to the total score. You will have completion minded people that will breed toward concert performers even in their 11 bird kits. But it could be a great money $$$$$$$$$ generator.
You talked about the tremendous effort by the judges and the time it takes them to complete the judging. That really would not affect anything because the winner of the ‘World Cup Juniors’ will judge WCJ the following season and the winner of the ‘World Cup’ will judge the WC the following season. If your consern about the RDs time and so on, well, maybe the LADs will take on a little more responsibilities to accommodate the WCJ. So it is all about more participation and more money to the organization.
Jay
Last Edited by J_Star on Nov 10, 2005 5:56 AM
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motherlodelofts
464 posts
Nov 10, 2005
8:01 AM
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Jay he can summit a proposal,but first though he has to fly at least one fly or get support by others that have
( and that may be a problem) and then all he has to do is follow the consitution and bylaws to get the ball rolling.
Once this is done then it goes to the general coordinator , from there it goes to the W/C committee.
There is no other way, he can talk about it till the cows come home but unless he follows the guidelines set in the bylaws it is nothing but a rant.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Nov 10, 2005 8:40 AM
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Ballrollers
169 posts
Nov 10, 2005
3:12 PM
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Good point Jay. Something positive, here. More participation=more money for the WC.
Kenny, I stand corrected. I thought you were inferring that the German's were far behind in the breeding and flying of rollers, which they might find objectionable. Of course they could participate in a WC 11-bird, so nothing would have to be "dumbed down". You are right, they readily admit they feel behind in the breeding and flying of 20-bird kits.
Kevin, You are right. Good suggestion. That is the only way to make the change. That along with every flyer expressing his opinion to his RD and the RD listening, assuming he would be counted and his vote would be counted! LOL
We are starting to confuse and merge these two threads. The decision whether to add an 11-bird world championship fly as an option to the WC is a separate issue from the organizational problems that appear to exist within the structure of the WC. No Scott, am not suggesting it is falling apart, just not working as effectively as it should in representing the flyers and their opinions. I agree that the WC has pulled the world together as far as this breed goes and I am recommending that we continue the process through the addition of an 11-bird event. I did not say anything about changing the 20-bird WC fly...NOTHING...NADA....ZIPPO. I saw an idea to add an 11-bird event to the already successful 20-bird event. Those tiny pockets of 11-bird flyers that you mentioned are growing every year, apparently because they enjoy the 11-bird. I take that back...I have gone to hundreds of lofts and twisted each flyer's arm and intimidated him until he enters the 11-bird instead of the 20! LOL I repeat, for the umpteenth time, this discussion is about preference and the inclusion of more flyers and an enhanced participation in the WC, not tearing it down. Like you said Scott...even you might fly in an international 11-bird fly if it were available! It would be an interesting poll, Tony, (hint, hint) for the readers, "Would you participate in an international WC 11-bird fly if it were available?" The idea that the 20-bird fly is the only way to enjoy or evaluate prforming rollers is totally false. But then this debate has gone on for decades. And what's with this "dangerous ground" stuff? Do we have a Godfather of rollers that I need to be aware of? These are not empty accusations, but questions about how things are being done, whether or not the structure exists for effective handling of the issues in the WC, and whether they are being followed. Nothing dangerous or scary about it, in my mind.
Here's a few snippets of e-mails I have received from WC RDs and men on the inside:
"Everyone in every district in the world is not on line, let alone on the site."
"Is there any wonder that so many flyers are questioning the decisions made?"
"One of my problems is that the LADs have been in place for several years and some just don't care."
"When things go secret, rumors begin to flow. Our RD sent us things that he thought we should see to guide him on how he should vote on the issues. No one ever heard that this was wrong....it is not written anywhere."
"It's not the RDs fault, it's the fault of the system."
"This is not run like a committee should be run."
"Until they get this straightened out, it is not a legal committee of RDs and if someone wants to scream loud enough, they could actually reverse all and any decisions that have been made. But I am not one to stir up trouble."
These are from different men on the inside, unsolicited by me, but sent obviously sent in the hope that something would be done. Whatever these men are talking about, and the men on the inside know better than we...we are just beginning to hear about it...it needs somebody's attention. Denying it and shooting me as the messenger for daring to make it public will not improve the effectiveness of the WC. That is all that I am saying, gentlemen. YITS Cliff
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Nov 10, 2005 3:30 PM
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motherlodelofts
467 posts
Nov 10, 2005
5:34 PM
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Cliff since we are on an open forum here I want to make sure that people know where this stuff from the inside is coming from and why.
We had a petition prestented to us to change the W/C time-in rule to he "new" NBRC time-in rule ,
this was defeated 32-6.
Cliff I have "no" doubt that these things were said by a very very small minority on the "inside" as you put it, that was not happy the way that the vote went.
I find it real odd though that this stuff somehow just fell into "your" lap and was not voiced to the committee , although it isnt surprising.
Cliff I am going to take those issues and put them in front of the committee since you stated that they want "something done" , there is no other place to get "something" done and this is not the place for it.
If these people have a problem then it needs to be put out on the table and out of the back alleys , I am afraid they hope it festers into an open wound though as they are too small of a minority too pass thier agenda through the majority, and yes Cliff names were not necessary , Cliff how is it that "you" come accross these people ?
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Nov 10, 2005 8:27 PM
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knaylor
28 posts
Nov 10, 2005
5:39 PM
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Cliff, Guys....
We had approx 1066 kits entered in the W/C last year with 60 plus qualifiers. Now how is the W/C in trouble or really in need of more fliers or money to survive.
Cliff, if you are not happy with the Rd or Lads it is real easy to change them. If they do not have a vote it is on them not the committee. Kevin
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motherlodelofts
470 posts
Nov 10, 2005
7:44 PM
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No Cliff I would never support the eleven bird fly for the W/C nor do I think that many would expecialy from the overseas flyers and the bulk of the U.S to back them up.
I can't think of anyone wanting to water down the world cup with such a fly although I'm sure that "you" could dig someone up.
I would kick around supporting it if it was just another fly seperate from the W/C.
Scott
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knaylor
30 posts
Nov 10, 2005
9:00 PM
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I also forgot to mention that we are getting FIVE new regions this year and we have a new country that would like to join the W/C. We are in trouble...... Kevin
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Ballrollers
172 posts
Nov 11, 2005
7:47 AM
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Scott, I appreciate your willingness to have the WC committee have a discussion on the topic. That is what is really needed. It does not appear to me that it is just a small minority of unhappy flyers. There are multiple issues playing out here, as I have tried to lay out for you. Why me? I have asked myself that question, and Tony and I also discussed it on the phone. My guess (based on what I have heard from others) is that I have developed a reputation for being a reasonable person, for being outspoken on the issues, and for being able to articulate fairly well, based on what guys have seen of my modest contribution to the lists and to articles in the NBRC journal and the Roller Journal, and for not being easily intimidated. Since there was a growing concern about the issues I have been discussing, once I started the thread, I became a conduit and a place for guys to funnel information to get things out in the open. Like Tony said, he wouldn't want to be in my position. Some men are not outspoken and avoid confrontation at all costs. That doesn't mean that they always accept things that occur within their sphere of influence, however.
So can you just call a session whenever you like if there is business to discuss? Isn't there some sort of time frame for submitting issues to be discussed? Will you include all the RDs or just a select few? (Remember, I'll probably be more involved as an RD next year so I'm trying to learn how things are done). I have been handicapped by not knowing all the details of the structure and management of the WC, but I am having that information sent to me from the 03 WC bulletin. Any other resources you think I should consult?
YITS Cliff
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Nov 11, 2005 7:49 AM
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Dave Szab
10 posts
Nov 11, 2005
9:51 AM
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Cliff,
Go to: http://www.worldcupfly.com/ which is the WC website. Click on Constitution and Bylaws. You will find everything you need to know about how the WC runs, except for the procedures that we use on the WC Committee Group List. Those procedures were put into place by Steve Clayton, when he started the list, and were agreed upon by the RD's.
As far as your concern that all RD's are not on the list, whenever any type of group gathers for a meeting, whether in person in a room or online on a group list, there can be members that are not present. As long as a quorum of members are present, business can be discussed and decisions made. It is up to the RDs to get on the list if they are not on, it is their responsibility to access the list daily, it is their responsibility to set up a way to get the list info from the GC if they don't have a computer. There is NO conspiracy, NO pushing agendas through, but there ARE dedicated roller men working hard to keep the World Cup Fly as the Premier roller fly in the entire world.
Also, more flyers does NOT mean more money for the WC. More flyers mean more expenses. The WC brings in just enough to cover expenses, so that entrance fees can be kept low enough to not deter flyers from entering the fly. This is a pro-flyer position, which I feel is appropriate. The WC is becoming too large to handle on it's own, there is no way that it could OR should handle an 11 bird fly added to it.
Dave Szabatura
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