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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
W/C Ghost Kits
W/C Ghost Kits
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knaylor
91 posts
Mar 22, 2006
4:59 PM
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Can someone explain this to me???? Kevin
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SJP
1 post
Mar 22, 2006
5:54 PM
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What is it?
I am a new member to this forum. Have been reading the post for the past 2 weeks. Some very good information.Have been serious about rollers for the past 7-8 years and never had any sickness, other than a bird here or there. however during the summer/fall of 05 had a sickness that wiped out alot of my birds. most were breeders.the birds would look healthy one day, then the next day would look cold and weak? they would look like a chicken when they would get wet? a day or two later they would be dead? asked 10 different roller guys and got 10 different answers as to what was causing the illness? gave vitamins and minerals. however, no real medicine as i was not sure what they had. i havent lost a bird in 3-4 months, i hope that it does not return, as i lost some very good birds. has this happen to anyone else.
thanks, sjp
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
437 posts
Mar 22, 2006
6:10 PM
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Kevin, it's a Pigeon Poltergiest...lol.
It has been documented by some avid flyers that when once in a while, perhaps a great while, from out of now where, a kit of rollers just "appears", all rolling their asses off. I hear that it is common for these rollergiests, kits of long lost great rollers, to show up like a ghost from the past. There is a myth that these are the kits of the world's most passionate roller flyers who left this humanly plane while thinking of or watching their beloved birds performing.
There has been a rumor that possibly these rollergiests are the kits of our past roller competition forefathers flying around lost, looking for their master and his kit box. Or, it could be just a folklore stimulated by some people claiming to be roller ghostkitbusters!
Personally I've never seen a ghost kit.
Brian.
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knaylor
92 posts
Mar 22, 2006
7:20 PM
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Brian, I know what a ghost kit is. A few years beck we put in a rule in the w/c to eliminate them. Was just wondering what all the gripe was about now?? Kenny H. and Cliff were talking about it and havent answered my question. Kevin
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Velo99
290 posts
Mar 22, 2006
7:42 PM
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Naylor.
On Earls there has been a bit of a debate going on about ghost kits and regoins after some one said they pay for two and just fly one in their region to make extra money for the WC. I asked if it skewed the number of qualifers by doing that instead of just making a donation. So in reality thay are not making a donation but using that phrase to justify the pracitce.
YITS
v99
Last Edited by Velo99 on Mar 22, 2006 7:43 PM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
438 posts
Mar 22, 2006
7:44 PM
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Kevin, I know what a ghost kit is suppose to imply, I was just trying to have a little fun. It happens sometimes..lol
The problem is that some people probably fail to distinguish between "ghost kits" and "ghost flyers". They are different when it comes to WC as you know.
For those who aren't familiar, here is an exerpt from the WC rules regarding the eligible kits.
"Each flyer is allowed to pay and fly 2 kits but each flyer must fly at least one kit out of the 2 entered. If a flyer has paid for a kit or kits but due to circumstances is unable to fly he must notify the judge as to the reason, or his paid kit or kits cannot be used for the number of kits for a fly-off representative. Each region must fly a minimum of 50 percent of the kits entered for each fly-off representative, (an example is: 8 flyers paying for 2 kits each equals 16 kits which equal one fly-off representative, 15 flyers paying 2 kits equals 2 fly-off representatives, etc.) no region may pay for any ghost flyers, and each region must turn in a fly report for that region signed by the judge to the GC prior to their finals, in order to maintain the integrity of the WC on this issue."
I believe that some people like to transfer the meaning of Ghost Flyer (a participant that doesn't exist or the name of a person who did not enter) to Ghost Kit in an effort to label a second entered kit which is not flown. Every person is eligible to enter two kits, but it clearly states, for every person who enters, he MUST fly a kit. If he enters two kits, he MUST fly one of those kits.
There is a deep rooted anti-sentiment from a few smaller regions towards regions with large numbers of flyers. Every year this topic pops up and it generally, but not always, comes from an area where they often have to solict really hard to come up with the required 15 kits. All they need to do is pay for two, then make sure everyone flys at least one of the two. It's really simple logic.
An analogy:
The speed limit per the rules is 55 mph.
I have a fast car that will do 55 mph and I choose to drive at to the fullest allowance of the speed limit.
Another guy doesn't have quite as fast of a car and by virtue of that limitation, chooses to only drive 40 mph. But if he would just tune the P.O.S. he could very easily drive to the fullest the rules allow. But rather than do that, he would rather I slow down to his speed limit because it is not fair that I can actually drive that fast and he can't.
Brian.
Last Edited by MCCORMICKLOFTS on Mar 22, 2006 7:47 PM
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Velo99
291 posts
Mar 22, 2006
7:52 PM
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Brian,
we have 30 entered this year. 2qualifiers. If we all paid double next year and bought 2 more qualifiers would the extras come from some other region or do they just add qualifiers. Is there a finite number of qualifers in a particular region or set of regions. If not then the "growth" the organization is experiencing could really be just corporeal beings, or money
JMHO
v99
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
439 posts
Mar 22, 2006
8:11 PM
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I'm sure since Kevin and a few others on this forum are on the WC committee, they can probably clarify some aspects a little better.
But since you asked, here are my two pennies.
You have 30 kits entered, or 30 actual flyers entered? There is a difference. Some regions might get 25 actual flyers entered, and then persuade five of those guys to enter a second kit, if they didn't choose to do so in the first place. You would be surprised at how many regions are just a few flyers short from another qualifier.
Now assuming all of your entrants only entered one kit, they are allowed, by virtue of the rules, to enter a second kit. BUT, each and every one of the entered flyers MUST fly one of their entered kits. If one guy doesn't, another guy can't make up the other guys decision not to fly by flying a second kit. Your qualifiers are based solely off the number of flyers and kits flown for your region. You can't cross over flyers and entrants from other regions. A region must be self-supporting.
The number of qualifiers is based on the number of kits flown. 15 kits for one qualifier. I believe the maximum number of kits a region can fly is 60 or 75, I can't remember, thus the maximum number of qualifiers for a region would be either four or five.
The growth the organization (WC Fly) is experiencing is related to it's overall success and the impression it leaves on those who participate. It is, the KING of all flys. It grows because it is attractive to participate in. It grows because it is promoted. It grows because the hobby as a whole is growing.
There is not "corporate money jockeying" going on.
All that is required from the region to the WC is $15 per kit. Here we pay $30 for ONE KIT to offset the costs of bringing in a judge, gas, food, and also our own regional awards for the qualifiers. The second kit is $20 here. 15 of which goes to the WC and the other 5 towards the previously mentioned stuff.
Brian.
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knaylor
93 posts
Mar 22, 2006
8:47 PM
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Kenny, what Brian is saying is true. Each region gets one qualifier for every 15 kits entered with a max of 5 qualifiers per region. Each flyer can enter a max of two kits.Also each flyer has to fly atleast one kit for his kit or kits to count towards the qualifier. The only exception is if something happens and the flyer is not able to put a kit up. Then the flyer must explain to the judge and it is his decision if it is valid. We put this rule in to eliminate ghost kits. There was some regions that had 4plus qualifiers and only about 15 kits actually flown. The part about not making all kits fly is to help keep the W/C going. It brings in more money plus does allow regions to get an extra qualifier wich will bring in more flyers. Now with the NBRC they count kits entered no matter how many fly. That is when the ghost kits really show up...LOL
Brian, I know you were BSing me. Sorry if I seemed snappy..LOL
Hope this clears things up, Kevin
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Velo99
292 posts
Mar 22, 2006
8:55 PM
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I was taking exception to the use of "donation to the WC". That is what got me going. Not the ghost kit thing. A donation is a donation,a "ghost kit" is an extra qualifier. I understand to buy an extra kit to make up a few more kits to get an extra qualifer for the region if your just a few away.
yits
v99
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motherlodelofts
668 posts
Mar 22, 2006
8:59 PM
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If some regions weren't allowed to pay for two kits to pull the 15 then they would have no fly since all it takes is a min. of 8 fliers.
There are no ghost kits /ghost fliers all allowed, there is only each flyer is allowed to pay for two kits and is obligated to fly at least one.
One year the NBRC allowed only kits flown to count towards qaulifiers , so what happened ? is if someone didnt have the two kits then they threw out a kit of babies , it made no differance at all except to waste the judges time and add alot of inconvienence , if an RD isnt doing everything possible to pull as many qaulifiers as he can while staying within the rules then he isn't doing his job, plus on top of it paying for two kits adds alot of needed revenue.
It is a win win all the way around !
Scott
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Velo99
293 posts
Mar 22, 2006
9:22 PM
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Scott,
in a similar discussion I was asked whjat I would do I said I would take a bird out of the box show it to the judge stuff it back thru the trap and take a DQ for early landing.
MTC
v99
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spinnerdom
51 posts
Mar 23, 2006
6:45 AM
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my take on this 15 fliers for a region,
A new rule min of 8 to start a new region, after 3 yrs must be 15
i fought for yrs for this one, only one world cup coorinater made it happen, every one else go away sunny you bother me
ghost kit or ghost flyers means to me, a region doesnt allow other flyers to fly but pays for 15 but they aint there,the region will die.to stop this be able to register directly to world cup.indiana is a big state but they judge them all, took us 2 days. some regions to large. all ontario
but to fly a person once,2 hours away, then too far a away to hell with you.
sell them birds, wont let fly in w/c 1 hr away.
world cup we cant dictate to a region,why the hell not jim
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motherlodelofts
671 posts
Mar 23, 2006
7:23 AM
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Jim , a new region can do it with 6 fliers paying for 15 kits for a period of two or three years (cant remember which) that is the rule.
You asked about axel wing rollers not being scored , no real rollermen that I know of will score them incuding myself , why ? because they are culls thats why , why are they culls ? because it's ugly thats why and there is nothing apealing about the style , look up style in your dictionary.
Obviously thats what your birds throw and is why you want birds viewed from the side where even a mediocre bird looks ok.
Sorry bud but its you against the world on this one.
Scott
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spinnerdom
52 posts
Mar 23, 2006
10:05 AM
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glad for the heads up 6 fliers.
axels forum not here,your opinion [dictionary ] your input needed.
against the world aint that a fact.lol jim
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Ballrollers
310 posts
Mar 23, 2006
1:14 PM
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Kevin, I know you've been wondering where I've been, so let me give you my take on the subject. The topic was brought up by a flyer in South Africa who was appalled at the practice in her country of guys being asked to fly cull kits to increase the number of qualifiers in the region. Rick Schoening told her that it was legal, in fact, in the states, some regions just pay for the EXTRA kits to generate more qualifiers without ever intending to fly them. That's when Kenny H. asked the ethical question of whether that practice was skewing the number of qualifiers for some regions.
The facts are, that it does, indeed, skew the number of qualifiers in favor of the regions that enage in this practice. Brian, it is not the size of the region that generates the deep-rooted sentiment about this issue. It is an ethical issue for them, or a financial one. Larger population bases will always have more flyers, more money, and more qualifiers. But that REALLY gets skewed if these same larger population bases engage in an ethically questionable practice of registering and paying for kits that are never intended to be flown...just to get higher numbers of qualifiers. The issue is not whether it is legal, for indeed it is, but whether it is ethical or financially feasible for them. Therefore, many regions do not support or engage in the practice. So in one region, with more of an ethical conscience or less money, 15 kits registered and flown generates one qualifier. In others, who believe the rules are the rulesand have the cash, 15 kits registered be doubled by the ghost kit entries, and will generate two qualifiers. That conveys an unfair advantage and skews the playing field. My region, for example, does not buy qualifiers through the purchase of ghost kit entries,though many of our flyers are rasing hell about it and recommending that we do so. I was told by a prominant flyer, RD and member of the WC Exec committee that we were crazy for not doing so. He explained that in his region, everybody automatically gets registered for two kits, in order to generate more qualifiers, and he foots the bill out of his pocket if necessary. He encouraged me to encourage my region to do the same, since it is "legal".
I've got a problem with that; not only the practice, in and of itself, but the fact that the regions who practice it are getting an unfair advantage over regions who do not, by placing more qualifiers in the finals.
These contests are for actual flyers; kits that exist; flyers that (at the time of entry) believe they will fly their birds for the judge; flyers that intend to do all in their power to fly their birds. Of course there will be weather and overfly losses and other REAL events to contend with, and the new regions deserve special consideration during their formative years. But this 50% kit flown rule does nothing to encourage men to fly. This bar is way too low for a fly that tells the world."This is the largest, most prestigious roller kit competition in the world." All flyers should INTEND to fly every kit entered and the sponsoring body should encourage flyers to endorse this policy, be it the NBRC or the WC. Do I have solutions, ready to lay on the table. You bet! We can keep the number of qualifiers high, generate the revenue necessary, and level the playing field for ALL regions. And those regions who are gaining the advantage will be the obvious ones to dig in their heels against reform. We just have to be willing to embrace change to make it more fair. But I'm not a WC RD.....yet. YITS, Cliff
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Mar 23, 2006 2:08 PM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
440 posts
Mar 23, 2006
2:21 PM
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I completely disagree Cliff.
You said
"I've got a problem with that. Not only the practice, in and of itself, but the fact that the regions who practice it are getting an unfair advantage over regions who do not by placing more qualifiers in the finals."
There is no "unfair advantage". If one region has two kits entered for each flyer, that is the maximum allowed per the rules. EVERY region is allowed the same decision making latitude. If one region's ethical police decides that every region should do what they do, that is sour grapes. Someone needs to take charge in that region and take advantage of what the rules allow. It is FAIR across the board!!!
I don't buy this "financial" B.S. We are talking about an extra 15 bucks!!! You know, about the same amount as three guys eating at McDonalds! The same price as one bag of feed. You make it out to be some kind of crime against the roller fraternity. There is no crime. In fact, in many cases, at least half of those 2nd entered kits ARE ACTUALLY FLOWN! I always have and always will enter two kits and fly two kits in the two big flys. If I could enter three I would. You should too if you have the birds to do so. If you don't, don't piss and moan about other regions that enter 2nd kits when you CHOOSE not to. This isn't about ethics. It's a matter of the rules allow 2 kits per flyer. It is your choice if you want to enter one or two. It is your choice if you want to fly one or both. Because someone chooses to enter two and not fly one and you do not, that is not an unfair advantage. That is YOU not taking full advantage of the opportunities that exist within the rules.
Brian.
Last Edited by MCCORMICKLOFTS on Mar 23, 2006 2:23 PM
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knaylor
96 posts
Mar 23, 2006
2:28 PM
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Cliff, your whole comment shows that you have "NO" idea about what really is going on. I think you should fly in the W/C for a couple of years and then become an RD then you will see the truth. Kevin
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motherlodelofts
672 posts
Mar 23, 2006
3:11 PM
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Ethical ? Are you frigging kidding ? Cliff you have a knack for getting yourself into the middle of things that you don't understand , things are the way they are for a reason.
There would be regions eliminatad and no fly at all for some if the rule went the way that "you" think it should be .
Here there is no one kit or two kit choices, there is a set price and if you want to fly two then that is up to you, but every flier is paying for two kits.
Knock out the second kit revenue and see what happens , knock out qaulifiers where only the same guy or two guys dominate and see what happens.
Every region wants absoulutly as many qaulifiers that is allowed and it is the RDs job to make it happen , once you been around a while you will understand , you play within the rules and twist arms to make it happen.
If every kit had to be flown then we would still be paying for two and kicking out kits of squekers if we had to , that is how it works Cliff , if your RD doesn't understand this and doesn't make it happen then you need a new RD.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Mar 23, 2006 4:38 PM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
697 posts
Mar 23, 2006
3:23 PM
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Scott.It cost 70.00 to fly 2 kits in my region.I might be a Knucklehead but I can,t afford to pay that much.David
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motherlodelofts
674 posts
Mar 23, 2006
3:28 PM
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Somebody is Dave or you guys wouldn't have a fly in that region , don't get me wrong , some guys can't afford it and those that can pick up the slack for them, nothing wrong with helping someone out as long as they need the help , usually every year there are a couple of us that pitch in and help someone out , we do whatever takes to make this fly happen .
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Mar 23, 2006 3:31 PM
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dave
71 posts
Mar 23, 2006
3:35 PM
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I would like to get as much qualifier as I can in my region. I might not be the guy that is always qualifying but I might be the second guy or the third guy, lol.
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
698 posts
Mar 23, 2006
3:35 PM
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Scott.Maybe I misunderstood your post but I took it as the flyers in your region don,t have a choice as to flying one or 2 kits.They have to pay for 2.If my RD would tell me I had to pay for 2 kits I would just tell him Goodbye.David
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motherlodelofts
675 posts
Mar 23, 2006
3:47 PM
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Dave you read it right, there is no choice , we have alot of hard core fliers here.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Mar 23, 2006 3:48 PM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
699 posts
Mar 23, 2006
4:00 PM
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Scott.Glad I am not a newcomer in your region and just wanting to see if I wanted to get started in competition.Looks like the hardcore flyers has the upper hand.Do it our way or get lost.David
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motherlodelofts
677 posts
Mar 23, 2006
4:17 PM
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Dave , now that would be your choice wouldn't it , it isnt for everybody.
Without hardcore flyers there would be no such thing as the worldcup or NBRC fly.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Mar 23, 2006 4:19 PM
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knaylor
98 posts
Mar 23, 2006
4:36 PM
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Dave, we charge $50 in this region. Everyone has the choice to fly one or two kits. Everyone is entering two. Now that leaves me $20 per flyer after the W/C entries are paid. That is not much left over to cover the qualifier or the finals. I am lucky because I have a few great guys in my region that help out alot. Scott is one and another one is Ken Firl. Without the help of guys like these two the entries would be alot higher. Kevin
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Opinionated Blowhard
26 posts
Mar 23, 2006
6:37 PM
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If the rules allow it then it is ethical. If you force every person to fly every kit entered they will do it and you will waste judges time. Kevin
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dave
72 posts
Mar 23, 2006
8:07 PM
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Dave, you do have a choice to fly one kit or two. All you have to do is pay the $50 flat fee. After that you can decide if you want to fly one or two kits. Myself, I would only be flying one kit as my first kit is already bad enough, lol.
Kevin, you coming down with Scott?
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knaylor
101 posts
Mar 23, 2006
9:23 PM
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Dave, not going to be able to make it. They changed my work schedule and I have to work that weekend. Heck no wI even have to use vacation time on our weekend to fly. Really sucks but could be worse. Kevin
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
701 posts
Mar 24, 2006
2:11 AM
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I could maybe see a flat fee of 50.00.Here we are paying 40.00 for 1 kit or 70.00 for 2 kits.We are a new region and really struggling to get started.Elric is working his butt off trying to make this fly happen.Then the big problem is the flyers are so scattered.I think the closest to me is 2 hours away.If Elric can't make it happen nobody ever will.He spent a lot of money out of his pocket last Fall to make the Fall Fly happen and he wasn't even the RD.
I may have to go back in the woods and dig up my jar of coins and pay for the second kit just to make it happen.But it will be my choice and my sacrifice to pay for the extra kit.David
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spinnerdom
60 posts
Mar 24, 2006
10:54 AM
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without hardcore flyers W/C would not exist what a [crock]
with only 20% hardcore flyers,the 80% paying the main cost without them you would not have a w/c fly. nbrc fly same thing. jim
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J_Star
313 posts
Mar 24, 2006
11:03 AM
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Jim, That was a perfect sentense and to the point and no spelling mistakes. But the problem is, I see Cliff as if wrote this post. he was driving the same point a while back when the W/C topic came up first especially 20% vs 80%.
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kcfirl
6 posts
Mar 24, 2006
1:03 PM
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There is an option here. We could just let everyone fly one kit. To alleviate the concern about lack of funding, we could double the price.
To put it bluntly, the large regions with lots of fliers and entries are what prop the whole thing up. Without the big regions, the whole thing collapses cause it can;t pay for itself.
So, I find it most humorous, that the guys from the small regions are the ones complaining that it's not fair.
To be fair, we should let everyone that wants to fly, fly. and then charge them for the true cost of getting the judge their divided by the number of flyers in that area.
Do you think that would help the small areas?
Would Colorado, or Hawaii, or any of the smaller areas even be able to put up a kit?
It seems to work fine the way it is. I would just leave it alone.
Ken Firl
Former WC RD
Former NBRC RD
Flyer
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Shaun
312 posts
Mar 24, 2006
1:37 PM
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Ken has a good point. In England, the AERC (All England Roller Club), jointly formed by the likes of Graham Dexter (author of Winners with Spinners and incumbent president of the AERC), made a commitment for all roller flyer members in England, to have someone judge their fly - wherever they were in the country. You just have to read any of the annual AERC journals, describing the travels of the judge, to appreciate what a major logistical exercise this continues to be. In the early days, before the AERC really took off, the likes of Graham and George Mason, would pay for more than one of their kits to fly on the day, to help AERC funds. Indeed, sometimes, the same kit would land, be given a break, then be sent up again.
If I never compete I can always argue that I didn't wish to stretch the AERC's budget...
As we know, there isn't much money to be made in rollers, but the competition overheads don't go away.
Shaun
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knaylor
108 posts
Mar 25, 2006
9:03 AM
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Ken, do you think they will ever figure that one out???? LOL Kevin
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spinnerdom
74 posts
Mar 26, 2006
12:30 AM
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if a boundry was set,and large vans were used for transport.a meeting place was set.costs shared on a mileage bases point to point,all things can come to pass use your mind.
jim
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spinnerdom
75 posts
Mar 26, 2006
12:37 AM
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mr firl the easiest thing to do is to do do nothing
iam sure that you can do better
jim
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knaylor
110 posts
Mar 26, 2006
8:29 AM
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Jim, do nothing about what???? You really need to know what you are talking about before you critize. Its guys like you that will not participate or volenteer to help but will badmouth groups. Kevin
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spinnerdom
79 posts
Mar 26, 2006
10:32 AM
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mr mcormick the w/c rules state a region .is not a region until 15 flyers, each a separate person.fugging the rules allowing a region to capture a region,not allowing others in the fly.
this is not what w/c intended
this is why some regions dont grow
jim
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spinnerdom
80 posts
Mar 26, 2006
10:48 AM
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i have a problem with not solve/ing a problem
just do nothing it will go away, it wont,the problem gets bigger. what ever the region. i have answered .your turn. at the dome
jim
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knaylor
114 posts
Mar 26, 2006
2:25 PM
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Jim, once again do you fly in the W/C?????
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STARFIRE
13 posts
Mar 26, 2006
3:10 PM
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Hey Ken;
Jim don`t fly in the world cup because the guys in the
Toronto Flying roller club won`t let him fly.They say he is too far out.Its about 1 1/2Hrs.The real reason is that he doesn`t fly Barret birds.They have flown guys with Barret birds that live a lot farther than Jim does.Go figure.When you know the club won`t let you fly you dont strive to get a team together =That seems to be the standard blowoff for you guys when anything comes up that you can`t or wont answer.:"Do you fly in the world cup"?What a bunch of DOO DOO.Anybody is supposed to able to fly in the W.C.,Does that mean they have good birds?As long as they pay the money they are in.=Stan Arnold=
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knaylor
116 posts
Mar 26, 2006
3:16 PM
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Stan, that is true we also have that rule in our region. You have to have a certain type of bird or I wont let you fly. What a JOKE!!!!!! Let me know who his RD is and I will get the truth why he is not allowed to fly. 1.5 hrs is not too far. Kevin P.S. Jim has been saying he will not fly because he does not agree with the rules or how the birds are judged.
Last Edited by knaylor on Mar 26, 2006 3:17 PM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
444 posts
Mar 26, 2006
7:09 PM
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Jim, go back and read the rules. With WC consideration and permission, a new region can be created. This region must have at least six flyers who can pay for enough kits to make the 15 kit minimum.
Anyone can entered the WC competition. If they are not in a designated region, either one of the closest regions will be asked to pick them up and let them fly with them, or depending on the logistical difficulties, might not be able to fly. I think the rules are very clear. If a person lives in a remote area with no participants within a reasonable distance and they are outside of a region, they should consider moving, or promote the roller hobby in their area to generate more interest in flying, and thus, creating a new region.
Brian.
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spinnerdom
86 posts
Mar 26, 2006
10:15 PM
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mcormick it is a region from the start, not a new region.
stan please stay out of this,i will get it done.
mr knaylor we will get there in the dome, belittlement is not the way sorry no joke here
jim
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knaylor
118 posts
Mar 27, 2006
9:06 AM
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Jim, what joke??? also there are new regions formed each year....
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Ballrollers
311 posts
Mar 27, 2006
4:38 PM
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Well, one might have expected that the regions who engage in the practice of registering ghost kits in order to put more qualifiers into the finals might be the ones who speak the loudest in defense of the practice. But let's not shoot the messenger (namely me! LOL!), here, boys. In a previous thread, I indicated to you that the flyers in my region, as well as several others, were frustrated because they had not been contacted or included in the loop in any of the discussions of the business of rule-changes. I was shot down at that time by the same guys for reasons that were untrue and irrelevant to the topic; for criticizing the World Cup, for being inexperienced and for not knowing what was "really going on", etc. In the end, I was able to provide factual data to prove my point, though it was too late for those regions to be heard in the matter. (And I thank you Kevin Naylor for yor part in bringing my RD, and the others, into the communication loop.)
So now, I communicate to you that there are flyers in regions that are concerned, some of which do not fly and some who do in spite of their concerns, because they don't have the money, or they feel it is unethical, or that the World Cup is missing the mark to allow the purchase of qualifiers in the finals for kits never flown. Like it or not, gentlemen, it does indeed favor the regions who do so, over those who do not. But let me clear some things up.
Brian, You are correct. The rules ARE "fair", in that they allow everyone the same opportunity. And I agree, that if every region automatically entered two kits for every flyer, as your region does, then we do not have a problem. But if the rules are not representative of the flyers of many regions who don't have the money or do not believe in the practice, then IN REALITY, the playing field IS skewed. That's a fact. You can piss and moan all you want, and refuse to believe that this could possibly be so. But in the end, you must accept what is so. Now the WC Exec Committee may choose to ignore it, because "rules are rules". "Either play by them or don't play and shut up about it.....", or the WC can be responsive to the men who fly in the World Cup and take up the discussion as to how pervasive the problem is and whether any changes need to be made.
Scott, You said about my post, "....if the rules went the way "you" think they should be..." and moved on criticize. Actually, I did not say anything at all about the way "I" think they should be. As of yet, I have rendered no opinion as to a solution. I merely reported a fact that exists, and is being ignored by the World Cup Exec Committee.
As was posted on another list by another flyer:
"The qualifier system is in question here, and other lists. How many regions fly in the WC? How many qualifiers were there? Nnow divide the regions by the number of qualifiers and give each region that number of qualifiers. Most regions scratch to get two. What do you come up with?
These flys are expressly sponsored for flyers. If you've got one or two kits....fly 'em. If you plan on flying only one, PAY FOR ONE AND FLY IT! If you have no intention of flying a kit.....DON"T ENTER! Allowing 50% ghost kits is nothing more than legalized cheating. Who are we kidding? You want to fly kits in the World Cup? You want the judge to evalute your birds' performance? Pay and enter what you plan to fly. We can find a better way to get this done.
Sure we are short on integrity. The government lies to us. Enron lies to us. The oil companies lie to us. In the World Cup we don't have to lie about entering kits we never intend to fly, just so our region can be more competitive.
So, what if 20 or 30 WC RD's get together and decide that a "blind judge" is qualified to judge? Or what if 20 or 30 WC RDs get together and decide that we now have a 5-foot minimum? Or what if 20 or 3 WC RD's decide that an axel roller is worthy of a 2.0 qualifier? Should we all jump for joy and say "peachy"? Those are the rules we play by?"
What if we repealed the 50% fly rule? Allow every region with 'X' number of flyers that enter, one qualifier per region, automatically. Then to get a second qualifier, you must fly 15 more kits. Would the number of qualifiers go down in some regions? Like a rock! And rightfully so. Would the World Cup have to watch it's budget better? Probably. Could it find other ways to fund itself? Of course. Would that help the struggling new regions? Yep. Would that level the playing field? You betcha! Are there other considerations? Yep. But none that could not be addressed and worked out if the RDs would open their minds and say Ahhhhhhhh.
YITS,
Cliff
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Mar 27, 2006 4:45 PM
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motherlodelofts
688 posts
Mar 27, 2006
5:15 PM
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It allready is a level playing field Cliff ,fly ,don't fly , I don't really care , you won't get far here trying to blow smoke up peoples ass by throwing out words such as "lieing" "cheating" .
As usual you are on the sniveling side of the line and you are jumping into the middle of something that you havn't even participated in nor have a clue.
Not sure how you enjoy the birds at all since bullshit politics and conspiracys seems to be your only excitement.
By the way I am paying for two kits and flying one, why ? support , thats why, if you don't like it, to bad.
Like I said in a earlier post , we would kick out kits of sqeekers if we had to for the second team.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Mar 27, 2006 5:25 PM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
446 posts
Mar 27, 2006
5:33 PM
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But if the rules are not representative of the flyers of many regions who don't have the money or do not believe in the practice, then IN REALITY, the playing field IS skewed. That's a fact
Wrong answer Cliff. Because some people in some regions "freely elect" to only enter one kit and only fly one kit, that doesn't mean they are getting screwed by the regions who are entering the maximum allowed. In fact, they are screwing themselves by not using the system to their advantage. If your buddies or people you know feel that they are at a disadvantage by not getting an extra qualifier, please explain to me what that "disadvantage" is? You can't because it is nothing more than voicing a personal opinion based on choice.
It is like saying that if you are a small NASCAR Cup team, with a very small budget. You feel that all the monster multi-car teams are using the system to develop better shocks, better aero packages, better brake systems, better spring rates, etc, are then "cheating" or putting you at a disadvantage because you are not willing to front the investment. Are France and Helton now suppose to change the rules because some teams elect to not utilize all of the options available?
It's plain as vanilla Cliff. A region that flys fifty percent of it's entered kits and each one of those kits is flown by everyone who entered, that is fair. Is it an intrigity crime for one region to have one more qualifier than one that could have had the same, but chooses not too?
The rules are laid out before you and everyone else. The options are there for everyone. If someone chooses not to utilize all of the available options, that does not constitute cheating or unethical values of competition. It doesn't matter to me whether you agree or disagree. I have never entered a kit I didn't intend to fly and have always, let me repeat this, always enter two kits and always fly two kits. Do my kits have any impact whatsoever on your region or their qualifier? Answer: NO. If I didn't fly one of them would it impact your region and their qualifying? Answer: NO.
It is just so beyond my comprehension as to how one region has an advantage over another if they utilize the options and have say one more qualifier than another region? I guess I just absolutely loath whiners and snivlers who look to bitch about something that has zero factual merit.
Brian.
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