knaylor
123 posts
Mar 27, 2006
5:39 PM
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Cliff, once again you are a lost sole when it comes to knowing anything about the w/c. The ex committe has nothing to do with the rules except to make sure that the regions follow them. The RDs make and vote on all rule changes. The fact is that your RDs that took the places of other RD NEVER contacted us (me or Ron) and let us know about the changes. But to make you happy i will take 100% blame that they didnt get to discuss or vote on the one rule change(that didnt pass by a landslide). So you think that a region that has 8 flyers should have the same number of qualifiers as a region of 30 flyers??? LOL The fact is Cliff, the rules are in place and are set by the RDs. Like it or leave it!! Kevin P.S. VERY GOOD POST BRIAN!!
Last Edited by knaylor on Mar 27, 2006 5:42 PM
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Ballrollers
313 posts
Mar 27, 2006
6:16 PM
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Scott, You dissappoint me, my friend. Don't know why you are taking this personal, again, but I would have been surprised if you had responded any differently. Honest, I do not deliberately set out to cross with you, but here we are again. I can always tell when I get close to the truth of the matter; when I get that kind of response from you! LOL!That was exactly the same response you had last time; nothing positive to contribute to the discussion, just attack the guy with the gonads to point out the problem that exists. And, of course, in the midst of your personal attack and ridicule, we learned that, indeed, just as was pointed out, the World Cup Exec Committee did not even know who the RDs were from three major regions and had excluded them from the discussion on the rule changes. I don't understand why it is so difficult for you to just field the information and agree to check it out rather than to get so bent outta shape. IT'S NOT PERSONAL! (And, of course you know by now, that who I am in the matter is not defined by your comments.) As I have always said, the World Cup RD's deserve nothing but credit for the awesome job they do and for the sacrifices they make for the fly. Without you, this thing wouldn't happen. (And I will be joining your ranks soon.) But that doesn't mean that the system doesn't need to be tweaked and improved on occasion, or that the Exec Comm doesn't have to be responsive to the men who fly in it. I don't understand your attitude towards someone who is only making a contribution to the effort. And I understand that it may not be the kind of contribution that you would like to see!
For the record, though we now realize that you say such things only for impact, I never said anything about not flying. I have entered two kits and intend to fly two kits in the World Cup. (Key Word-Intend.)
I am understanding more of your definition of "sniveling". Anyone who dares speak his own mind and his own opinion and doesn't just roll over and accept the garbage that someone else tries to dish out is "sniveling" in your mind. Anyone with the nads to challenge the way things are being done, is a "sniveler" in your mind. Anyone who dares speak for the multitude of flyers who won't speak for themselves in public or otherwise...(and for this very reason of not wanting to subject themselves to such ridicule for their effort I might add) is "sniveling" to you.
Know that, indeed, I enjoy my birds and this sport immensely, Scott. And it's the bullshit IN the politics that gripes my ass! So we are here, just to discuss it on these public forums. That's all..to debate the issues...because, heaven help us, you might just reach an understanding of OUR issues or point of view. And we might understand why YOU do things the way you do them and we all learn something in the process; about the birds, the flys, the organizations, or even about ourselves in the process. No hard feelings, eh?
YITS, Cliff
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motherlodelofts
690 posts
Mar 27, 2006
6:54 PM
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Nothing personal at all Cliff , just get tired of the whiners is all and there is nothing to discuss here.
By the way I am no longer on the commitee due to some new blood stepping up to the plate.
I'll just be flying my birds which is what I enjoy , good luck.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Mar 27, 2006 7:02 PM
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fhtfire
381 posts
Mar 27, 2006
7:14 PM
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I totally agree with Scott, Brian, Kevin and the list goes on. I do not think that giving the option of two kits is cheating. Right now I have two kits...for sure I am flying one...I am not sure on the other kit...why? Because I am not going to put up a kit that I feel will waste the time and gas of the judges and fliers to come to my house and watch a bunch of crap. Of course they may get to see some crap from my A-team..LOL!. The point is...2 months out...a lot of people have locked down there birds for the winter and truly do not know if they are going to be able to get two teams together...some may have lost to many birds...some may have enough birds then get his hard by hawks a month before the W/C and lose to many birds and no longer have two teams. I myself like having the option. I paid for two teams during the fall fly and only flew one team...why...25 mile per hour winds...the time before that...lost birds on an overfly and could not get two teams together...but I did have two teams at the time the money was due. Sometimes you just want to support the cause...YOu know how many girl scout cookies that I have paid for and told the little girl that I paid for 8 boxes but give me four boxes...that is called support! So...what is the big deal if you have one extra qualifier...oh my..that is a tragedy to have an extra qualifier...there is no cheating..either the birds have it or they do not. What if you had 1 qualifier and that person scored 335 points and the second scored 300 points and the two fliers were that close...and only one could go...but if you have two qualifiers...that makes it that much better. I really feel that it is about the wasting of time. I would much rather have the option of flying two kits then wasting someones time watching a team that is not ready and has 2 breaks in 20 minutes. I feel it is not a waste of time if the flier thinks the kit will do good and for whatever reason the do not...rather then a flier putting up a second kit that they "KNOW" is not ready and have everyone waste there time watching a team that is for sure not ready. I myself could not and would not do it to my fellow fliers. Again, it is just having the option. Most people that I know truly do not know if the second team will be ready. The W/C is a tough fly when most people have birds that have been locked down and are out of shape...or have lost a lot of birds to hawks trying to train for the W/C. I hope I made some sense.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Ballrollers
314 posts
Mar 27, 2006
7:15 PM
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Brian,
A "whinner" is someone who refuses to play the game because he doesn't like the rules, and actively tries to discourage others from participating. Someone who "bitches" only complains loudly, puts no thought into the issue, and offers no solutions. Neither really care about the game, the sport or whatever activity they are complaining about. Since NONE of those accurately characterize my personal role in this sport, I am pleased that you were not directing that last comment at me, personally, Brian.
I agree that "freely electing" to enter only one kit, whether because of lack of funding, or because of some issue around ethics, does not mean they are getting screwed. I, personally, have never said someone is getting screwed. You misunderstood my meaning. There is no victim here, because, as you said, it's a matter of choice. But that does not alter the fact that the scales are tipped in favor of the region with the most qualifiers, if they had an equal number of flyers, for example. You said, "It's beyond my comprehension as to how one region has an advantage over another if they utilize the options and have say one more qualifier than another region." It's really very simple. Example: Region A and Region B have 15 flyers each. Region A pays for 15 ghost kits and gets two qualifiers to the final. Region B does not believe it is ethical to do so, or does not have the money to pay for the extra kits, so only gets one qualifier for the finals. You have the second best kit of the day. In which region would you have the better chance of making it to the finals? Your second place score in Region B may have even outscored the second place qualifier in Region A. Yet he gets to go to the finals(and may even win on a lucky day) and you don't get to fly your kit for the finals judge because of the decision made by your RD or the other flyers in your area not to purchase the ghost kits. Can you honestly sit there and tell us that you do not see any advantage to fly in region A? Hell, Region A may only be a few miles down the road over the state line! How would that make you feel residing in Region B?! No advantage? Come on!
As to your Nascar analogy...fair enough. I understand what you are saying. But I would counter-offer apples to apples, that in a preliminary race, if some big corporation could buy their way into extra entries, and field additional cars based only on paying aditional fees and not having to race them to get in, that a driver would have a better chance to get into the finals if he raced for the larger corporation than he would racing for the smaller company who could only field one qualifier. It's the same thing.
It is obvious, as I said before, that the flyers in the regions who are ok with the practice of flying ghost kits to get more qualifiers in the finals, have a vested interest in NOT understanding the perspective of the regions who have less financial resources or who CHOOSE not to buy ghost kits because they believe that kits entered should be intended to be flown. And they probably never will. I am not likely to be the one to convince you otherwise, so we will have to agree to disagree. It is up to the flyers in those regions to make their concerns about this issue known to the WC Exec. Committee through their RDs, or else give up their code of ethics and be willing to work the system better; and hope they can come up with the money necessary to get into the finals, rather than the kits of rollers. Peace, gentlemen.
YITS, Cliff
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motherlodelofts
691 posts
Mar 27, 2006
7:25 PM
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Lieing, cheating , code of ethics ? bullshit , more like a bunch of cheap bastards and nothing else, yea we have our share of those also.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Mar 27, 2006 7:26 PM
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knaylor
125 posts
Mar 27, 2006
7:29 PM
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Scott, that is a fact!!!! I am sure the w/c ex committee wont allow them to hold a fund raiser to help offset the cost for there region also. hey wait Cliff there is an idea.. Wow imagine that....LOL Kevin
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Ballrollers
315 posts
Mar 27, 2006
7:34 PM
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Good post, Paul. I respect your right to your opinion. No doubt about it, there are many valid reasons that a second kit might not be flown. But, to some people, there is a significant ethical difference between an overfly, hawk attack, weather, or darkness that prevents a second kit from flying, and never intending to fly (or not even having) a second kit and paying for it just to gain a qualifier for your region. The intention is the difference and the deception is the issue for some. For those who want to suport the WC, great. Send in the extra 15 bucks. They need it. Give more than you expect in return, like you do the Girl Scouts. You don't expect anything in return for that donation do you...(or do you? LOL!)...because it is something you believe in, right? So why should we flyers expect to gain the advantage of extra qualifiers for our region for kits that don't exist under the guise of contributing to the World Cup that we believe in, when we know that all the regions are not doing it, as well? I guess I'm just stubborn, Paul!
YITS, Cliff
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Mar 27, 2006 7:37 PM
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Ballrollers
316 posts
Mar 27, 2006
7:44 PM
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With such a low opinion of so many of your fellow flyers, Scott, I understand, now, why you are stepping way from your RD position. Now it's my turn to wonder how you can even enjoy the sport with that mindset.
Kevin, Are you even capable of original thought? LOL! It seems like you are always hanging on the coat sleeves of Scott or Kenny! LOL! I'm sorry guys. I apologize. I better leave well-enough alone
YITS, Cliff
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DHenderson
13 posts
Mar 27, 2006
8:06 PM
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Cliff I don't want to seem like it's "beat on Cliff day" but you analogy is completely off on this topic. If the rules were as you would like them to be then you would be putting a disadvantage on the bigger regions. It would only cause these HUGE regions to split up in to smaller groups so as to get a fair chance at a qualifier, that would probably not be a bad idea? but instead of 6 regions they have 3 when if they had 6 you would most likely see more entering of kits that aren't flown.
If each region can have 6 flyers and get a qualfier how is that fair to a bigger region that actually has 60 qualifiers but can only get a maximum of 4 qualifiers? when if they all paid up 2 kits or even flew a 2nd team with no ghost entries they could get up to 80 kits, but only 4 qualifiers? How is that a disadvantage to your region if they all flew a kit or not?
I would argue the point that it's not right as there are probably 10 kits in that one region, like in Southern Cal, that could place high in the finals but only 4 can get in? Now that is a disadvantage to them, not you? I know that many times guys will see one of the hottest kits and for some reason or another they don't get into the finals, high wind keeping them out of range, predators broke up the kit and 3 birds never returnded you name it? but maybe one of the best kits they will ever see didn't get in? I know it wouldn't be fair to a kit that won by the rules and no one noticed this kit as so and so's kit was the best they had ever seen, had that one bird flew for 2 more minutes etc... always an excuse but everyone knew who flew the best team.
I will tell you that the more competition in a region on average the better the field of competitors are. These hard core flyers push each other to be the best, but because of the rules limited the finalists A LOT OF super nice kits dont get in in their area.
I know nothing about your WC regional but from what I have seen, I am not flying in it this year either, and heard that many of the regions back east and the mid west are having problems getting participation. I think many just feel they don't have a chance to win after several stabs at it or they have a hard time getting a judge to judge a regional that takes 10 days of judging to do. Now if these big area regions would split up to 2-3 day judging areas I think the participation would actually increase as it's much easier and much less intimidating for new flyers to enter in to a fly where they know everyone by first name. Having a huge geographical areas is just too much to get a judge on a consistant basis, unless you are willing to get the same judges year after year which will be good for some and some will complain that this judge doesn't like me and judges my birds incorrectly so I have choosen to not participate? maybe this is part of the problem? maybe the judges are all retired and have poor vision and can only judge low flying kits and just won't judge a high flying kit cuz he CAN"T see them. If you could get a nice array of judges year afer year then people will be feel better about things too but you see a lot of the same judges in these bigger regions year after year. Guys know what to expect from them and may not like how they judge and vis versa so they start to fly less and less until they quit altogether.
The rules are fine as they are in this regard in my opinion.
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knaylor
126 posts
Mar 27, 2006
8:06 PM
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Cliff, that is what I do. I call them both to see what I should say next. It seems to me I have answered every one of your questions with the factual truth. Since I am more involved in the w/c than most I do know what is going on. Do I agree with all the rules?? No i do not. But I do not cry and whine about it. Did I get it right Scott or Ken?? LOL Kevin P.S. when Scott was an RD we did not vote the same on all the votes. Once again shows what you know Cliff.
Last Edited by knaylor on Mar 27, 2006 8:11 PM
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motherlodelofts
693 posts
Mar 27, 2006
8:28 PM
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Nice try Cliff but many know me and know better , I've done my fair share with time, money ,birds and sharing with others.
Dave you bring up a very valid point on the large regions being handicapped with no more than 4 qaulifiers.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Mar 27, 2006 8:33 PM
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dave
73 posts
Mar 27, 2006
8:57 PM
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Cliff, this is just a suggestion for your region. If the guys don't have enough money then tell them to start saving a little at a time, do some fundraiser (pigeon show), or just have guys help each other out. Scott did a great job being our RD and I stepped in to give him a rest, lol. Now, it is alot easier for us to just set a flat fee of $50 for 2 kits and if guys don't have the extra cash then a few of us help them out. As RD of my area I would like to get as many fliers as I can to qualify for our region. I'm also trying to recruit more guys (rookies like myself) to fly next year. I'm crossing my fingers that next year we will be able to get 3 qualifiers.
One more thing, wouldn't you loose fliers if only one or two guys were always qualifying and not someone else. After awhile some guys would start saying why bother when I don't even have a chance. When you maximize your number of qualifiers you give someone else a chance to get that second or third slot. They get motivated by this. Take for instance the local futurity fly in my area. Alot of us rookies and others thought that the more experience guys like Joe Emberton would win the futurity but guess what, a rookie like me won because luck was on my side. Now, all these other guys are saying that they could probably win also next year and they are getting involved.
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knaylor
127 posts
Mar 27, 2006
9:10 PM
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Dave, who ended up winning the fly?? Kevin
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dave
74 posts
Mar 27, 2006
9:14 PM
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Don judged and I ended up winning. I guess it was beginner's luck. I think I will do a litte better than the fall fly. I don't think I can go lower than a 0 and a DQ, lol.
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knaylor
128 posts
Mar 27, 2006
9:47 PM
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Dave, congrats. What was the bird that won? Good Job, Kevin
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dave
75 posts
Mar 27, 2006
9:51 PM
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The father to the bird was a cock that Joe Emberton gave me and the hen was from Aris.
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fhtfire
382 posts
Mar 27, 2006
11:08 PM
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Cliff,
My whole point that I was trying to get across is that who really knows what the reason is that someone is not able to fly a second kit. I am sure there are some smaller regions flying a ghost kit or two...but to be honest..I myself really do not care...and I myself am not going to acuse a region of it if I do not know for a fact that it is happening...again..I do not care..because it does not affect me as a flier. If your region has 25 ghost kits how does that affect how my birds are going to fly? or if I am going to qualify or not? Lets just say that John Doe from XYZ-A region qualified for the finals and your region flew just enough so called second kits and qualified two...does that really affect john Doe...NOPE! The funny thing is..that you can have SO Cal regions have 15 guys that score 200 more points then a qualifier from a weaker region....well to me it looks like 15 guys with a better kit don't even get to fly in the finals. But guess what that is the way the ball bouces. I just don't think that people should acuse...if they do not have the facts...because if someone saw that I entered two kits and seen my score on 1 team and a DNF on my second...would someone have the right to say that I am a ghost kit flier...NOPE...but Cliff..I think that you would if you did not know me...but the truth may be that two days before the comp a cat ate 2 of my birds and dropped me to 14 birds. You just can't point a finger if you do not know for sure...do I think ghost kits happen....yes...do I care...no....Kevin is right...if there is not enough money to fly...then have some fund raisers...or get a sponsor from a business....there are tons of ways to earn money. Or charge the same amount for two kits as one kit..then you can give the GHOST KIT spot to a person that can't afford to fly. Anyway...my thoughts...Cliff you are right...you..are a stubborn old bird..LOL! There are a lot of rules that are bent in every day life...running red lights...driving the posted speed limit...lots of things..Even in our sports....like NBA basketball...when a star player returns from being injured...don't you think that it is kind of funny that the player that was taking the stars place all of a sudden gets lower back spasms the same day the super star comes back to play...they have to put that reserve player on the injured roster or they have to get rid of him. Is it legal...nope...but who is to say..that the player really does not have back spasms...no proof....no case.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
705 posts
Mar 28, 2006
3:13 PM
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Well it looks like Region 1C won,t have to worry about flying any Ghost kits or any others in the WC this year.Just got an email from our Rd that our region had to cancel this years fly because of not enough entries.I knew it was going to be hard with all the troubles the region has been going thru since the passing of our RD.
Just wasn,t enough time to get things together by the April 1st deadline.So it looks like I will be back to competing with myself again.I'll just take that 40.00 and buy another roller.LOL. David
Last Edited by Bluesman on Mar 28, 2006 3:14 PM
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motherlodelofts
695 posts
Mar 28, 2006
4:18 PM
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Dave couldn't you guys get the six min. fliers ?
Scott
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
706 posts
Mar 28, 2006
6:10 PM
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Scott.The email said there was only 7 entries and monies.I don,t know what the whole story is.I am in the middle of nowhere so I just get bits and pieces.LOL.I was really looking forward to getting to fly.Kind of takes the joy out of all the work and planning I did getting ready.Done me and the birds good tho.Maybe someday they will get it together.David
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motherlodelofts
696 posts
Mar 28, 2006
6:58 PM
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It takes a min of six flyers paying for 15 kits, only you guys can make it happen .
I was wondering how you guys were going to swing it when you said you were only paying for one kit, obviously everyone else thought the same way , so now you guys don't have a fly.
You guys had an RD that picked up the ball but it sounds like he didn't get the support.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Mar 28, 2006 7:03 PM
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fhtfire
387 posts
Mar 28, 2006
7:24 PM
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Hell,
Fly some ghost kits and then you will get to fly...Man that sucks David. Just pay for two kits and get the numbers...this is a perfect example on why you should be allowed to enter 2 kits and decide weather you are going to fly 2 or not.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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tapp
70 posts
Mar 28, 2006
7:40 PM
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Scott,Kevin I'm in southern Mi. I,ve never flew in comp yet, As you all know I,ve only been flying one year. What I was wondering. Does It help others in my region If I fly a kit in the W/C fly. Knowing That my kit I put up doesn't have a chance to Score good. Or does It put a crimp on things.Hope this don't sound stupid! If it would help I,d do it in a heartbeat if it would help others like Blues man . But the region I'm in Probably has enough kits.
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Tapp
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spinnerdom
111 posts
Mar 28, 2006
7:55 PM
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whiners and snivelers is this not belittlement, there are problems here .what do you do about problems, put your heads to gether like men, and fix the problems, make every thing fair, this is suppost to be the w/c. ....
a club only their friends can fly,flyers close around the club are not allowed to fly.a minimum boundry is required
in the rules of w/c. also to be able to register to w/c directly.
flying two kits, makes judge have to turn and go back makeing more costs,to prove that you can lose twice.you fly your absolute best you can not do better than that,
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knaylor
133 posts
Mar 28, 2006
8:31 PM
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Tapp. sure it will help the region but more importantly it will help you out. You will meet more people and will find out where you are in rollers. You could get some really good advise. Plus its fun having pigeon guys in your yard. kevin
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tapp
72 posts
Mar 28, 2006
8:42 PM
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Is there still time to fly this year? and what month is it in my region? Thanks
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Tapp
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knaylor
137 posts
Mar 28, 2006
8:51 PM
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Tapp, look at the w/c website and find your RD. Call him and ask. Since this will be your first time in the w/c you just have to have your money into the w/c before you fly. Kevin
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spinnerdom
112 posts
Mar 28, 2006
9:11 PM
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cliff ; no fun trying to make a point,out come the swords.
what is wrong with listening,then to rectify if some one can.no need for calvary to charge do something anything
i understand 15flyers = 1 qualifier ok
new region 6 pay for 15 = 1 qualier ok
region wont ever have more than any 1flyer payes for 15does it realy matter.it is a start he is the winner
you dont even have to judge him.
region lost rd so someone must pickup the flag.... when the fly is over. new rd. didnt pay enough you have a week get the money to us .delivery service. get up to the plate .getit done. that is why you are there.
jim
enough of character assassin bull shit
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tapp
73 posts
Mar 28, 2006
9:11 PM
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Thanks Kevin wiil do. Got to get to bed my wife has surgery in the morning. Your prayers are welcome all! There's power in prayer!!!!!!!! good night all.
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Tapp
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knaylor
138 posts
Mar 28, 2006
9:25 PM
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Tapp, my thoughts are with you. I am sure all will be well. kevin
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
707 posts
Mar 29, 2006
2:42 AM
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Scott.Its pretty hard to get things together from the time the WC allowed Elric to become the RD and then meet the deadline of April 1st.You make it sound like we the flyers let the RD down.If the WC don,t even know what is going on with the regions how do you expect us the flyers to know what the rules are.If the WC hadn't moved things up so early maybe we would have had time to pull it off.So don,t go saying we let our RD down.The WC let us down by not giving Elric the go ahead sooner and moving the startup date earlier.Further more I wasn't asked if I would pay for a Ghost kit to make it happen.All I got was an email with the application for the entry which said 40.00 for one kit or 70 for 2 kits.It is hard enough to get one kit together let alone 2 kits.It was just canceled and I got an email saying so.I am tired of hearing "you guys have to make it happen".Most of us are new flyers and have no idea of what is going on.It is not the flyers fault it is the Leaders.My opinion.David
P.S. In defense of our Regional he had 3 weeks to try and pull together 3 states to make this fly happen.I know he done his best.
Last Edited by Bluesman on Mar 29, 2006 3:20 AM
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kcfirl
7 posts
Mar 29, 2006
7:16 AM
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Stan and Jim,
if you're within 1.5 hours of a guy flying in a region and the RD won;t let you fly even though you're willing to meet halfway to pickup and return the judge, then you need to document the issue and present it to your RD, Bill Reid and the assistant national director (Kevin Naylor)and the national director, ron duncan.
If they are unresponsive once presented with the facts, I suggest you send your issue to all the RD's and get them all bitching to the WC director.
If all other avenues fail - please give us the facts once you have gone through the proper channel, and not before.
Discussing the issue through veiled insinuations on this forum isn;t getting you anywhere.
Regards,
Ken Firl
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motherlodelofts
698 posts
Mar 29, 2006
8:01 AM
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Dave that could have been extended easy enough , just not sure if that would have helped.
The ball is your guys court and no one elses , yes it is the flyers fault for not supporting it.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Mar 29, 2006 8:03 AM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
708 posts
Mar 29, 2006
8:38 AM
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Scott.Time will tell.The RD is seeing about an extension right now.David
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knaylor
139 posts
Mar 29, 2006
9:17 AM
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david, the deadline was not moved up. Just the finals date. Not sure why Elric was held up heard nothing about it on my end. He still has until Friday to send in the entries. He posted on the committee list last week that your region would not be flying and gave no reason why. Kevin
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Ballrollers
318 posts
Mar 29, 2006
9:31 AM
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Paul, You are correct. Problems like region 1C is having is exactly why the entry of ghost kits was developed; and rightfully so, as I have said before. They need all the assistance we can give them in oder to participate. The issue I have revolves around the practice of flying ghost kits, that is being used by huge population bases with large numbers of flyers and kits, only to get additional flyers into the finals. What was wrong with the WC rule that originally spoke to the kits flown/kits paid issue? Was it more or less than 50% flown, in the USA before 2002? What was the policy in your region BEFORE the new 50% rule came to be? What you will find is that before the WC passed this 50% flown rule, the average number of kits not flown was much lower, especially in the large regions. This rule encouraged men NOT TO FLY kits. That is the problem I have with it. This is a fly competition. This rule was not meant to influence the US flyers in established regions to the extent that it has. I was intended to bring the South Africa flyers into line and to assist the fledgling regions in the US. YITS, Cliff
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knaylor
141 posts
Mar 29, 2006
9:55 AM
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Cliff, once again you are WRONG!!!! The 50% ruled was brought up and then voted one and then passed to eliminate ghost kits. Why because there were alot of regions that were flying less than 50%. That is why and no other reason. Kevin
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motherlodelofts
699 posts
Mar 29, 2006
9:59 AM
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Cliff that rule has "allways" been the same , what the new rule did was put it in black and white to eliminate "ghost fliers" by making it mandatory for every flyer registered to fly at least one kit and eliminate just names being used of flyers not flying.
The NBRC is no different either only it allows flyers not flying to be used also same as the WC used to.
As usual Cliff you have thrown yourself in the middle of something that you don't have a clue about.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Mar 29, 2006 10:02 AM
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Ballrollers
319 posts
Mar 29, 2006
10:16 AM
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In response to the post by DHenderson, I'll give everybody three guesses as to whether he lives in a region that supports the registering of ghost kits in order to get more qualifiers! LOL! I don't expect to change your minds, guys. Why would you support any rule change that would mean that you could only earn qualifiers by flying kits when you can just buy them? I don't blame you! I'd kick and scream too! By the way, personally, I'm getting tired of hearing about your "hard core flyers" earning you special dispensation. That's a crock. There are hard core flyers throughout the country. Neither the northwest nor the left coast deserves any special consideration because it thinks its flyers are more committed to the sport than other regions. YITS, Cliff
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Mar 29, 2006 10:18 AM
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Ballrollers
320 posts
Mar 29, 2006
10:21 AM
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tapp, Prayers will go up for your wife today. Please keep us posted how things go. YITS, Cliff
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Ballrollers
321 posts
Mar 29, 2006
10:25 AM
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jim,
That's the wisest comment that I have seen from you yet.
"no fun to make a point out come the swords". Maybe you are smarter than we give you credit for. "What is wrong with listening then to rectify if someone can no need for cavalry charge" Well you may be right, my friend. However, my personal experience is that those in control and with advantage in their favor are not likely to change unless others make loud noises. YITS, Cliff
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Mar 29, 2006 10:30 AM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
449 posts
Mar 29, 2006
1:28 PM
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Cliff, here is one you are gonna just love. In my club, it is Mandatory that to be a member of our club you MUST enter a kit in both the WC and FF. We are stringent about our club supporting the two big flies. Some guys complain, but are quickly reminded that they were told this when they solicted to become members.
Brian.
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Ballrollers
322 posts
Mar 29, 2006
2:06 PM
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Brian,
I really like that idea! Do you guys have a waiting list to get into your club? I have heard that such is the case out there in some areas. That would certainly make it a little easier to enforce a "must fly" rule. I feel lucky to have a dozen guys who will make the committment to meet regularly! But I guess we are more fortunate than guys like Dave Strait who basically has to go it alone. I recognize that the circumstances are so different in all the regions that it's very difficult to have any one organization with one set of rules that fits everbody. Good luck in the WC prelims! YITS, Cliff
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Ballrollers
323 posts
Mar 29, 2006
2:55 PM
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Dave H,
I want to clear up a couple other thngs that you alluded to in your post. My entering into this discussion was not based on a lack of participation, or judging issues in my region. Our percentages are actually pretty good in that most of the guys who have birds are willing to put them up for a judge. We all kno each other pretty well, and the comps are more about the comraderie than winning for most of us. (After all, look who we have to compete against in my region! LOL!)It's not a participation issue. But I speak for flyers in many in other regions who are not comfortable confronting others publically about these issues, about the ethics issues or about the economics involved with the comps. Sorry you won't be participating this year, Dave. Maybe the Fall Fly, huh? Good luck with your breeding season!
YITS, Cliff
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
710 posts
Mar 29, 2006
2:59 PM
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Brian/Cliff.I was just told by my RD today that a Club of this nature is being formed right now in our region.Every member will automatically be a flyer in the big flys.May work.Anything is better than nothing.At least that way I will know for sure I am flying.
Cliff.I am not alone here.There is 5 or 6 that is always ready to fly.We will get it together sometime.Maybe yet this year.I have been on the phone about all afternoon.Blood pressure is beyond pills but there is still hope.LOL.David
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
450 posts
Mar 29, 2006
3:01 PM
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Not really Cliff. The club limit was 20 flyers. No one else could solicit to join or be voted in unless the active flyer number was less than 20. We restructured the by-laws per the approval of the club to allow for 25 paid members, but still only have 20 active flyers. The others are veteran members who for various reasons have elected to be inactive flyers, but members in good standing.
We don't get a lot of guys trying to join because due to the intense devotion to competition flying, the club requires that a potential member must attend every single fly and go to every flyer's house over the course of one fly season. At the following annual meeting, that member and his sponsor (a current member) is allowed to petition to be accepted as a member and if accepted, must fly in every fly that year without question, excluding the obvious good excuses which we all know arises from time to time.
Our club is about competition flying and reasoning for some of the strictness is to make sure that every member is willing to put the time into being such.
Brian.
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Ballrollers
325 posts
Mar 29, 2006
3:29 PM
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Dave Strait, I have been meaning to respond to your region's dilemma, but haven't been able to jump in yet. I can't believe that you were not able to muster six flyers! What a bunch of deadbeats! We, too, had a couple of late cancellations using the excuse that they could never win against the stiff competition in our region. Some of them actually have decent kits! It can be a tough row to hoe. I hope Elric can get something going. What about petitioning to re-join the NY region? I'm just searching for an answer. Maybe the guys with all the experience can help more. Now I hear that the Long Island Roller Club has been created as a separate region...no vote....no discussion......just somebody's decision. So now a club can be a region if it is convenient for some other region?? Sounds like what happened in your region's case. I gotta find out more about this crap. It just seems to fall in my lap!! LOL! Good luck!
Cliff
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
711 posts
Mar 29, 2006
4:14 PM
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Cliff.We were told we had to have a min. of 8 flyers.I keep hearing we only need 6 but this came from the top man himself.What do I know.I don,t even know what makes up the tri state region.Everywhere I see it says we are with New York.But yes New York has split and if they have the flyers I say go for it.If there is enough flyers in a close area it sure would cut down on expenses.It is way to far for the New York fellows to travel around in our region the way we are scattered across the state.I think we have 8 flyers all we need to do is get the money issue settled.I went down in the woods and dug up my old Mason jar of coins to throw in the pot.I will fix a pot of deer meat stew from the last roadkill and the Judge can eat here.So that will cut down the cost too.
Maybe I should have just had everyone in my region that wanted to fly come here and pick a kit box and fly the birds.I don,t think there is a rule that says one fellow can't own all the birds.LOL. Just joking.David
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knaylor
144 posts
Mar 29, 2006
5:32 PM
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Cliff, there was a vote on the new region. I even brought up a concern on the issue. Who all voted i am not sure. As long as you have enough signatures and you are still leaving the original region in tact there is no reason you can not create a new one. Most splits happen because of too many flyers or too much distance in the current region. The region i am in split from another region for both reasons. kevin
Last Edited by knaylor on Mar 29, 2006 5:33 PM
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