3757
8 posts
May 13, 2006
9:09 AM
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The Black Country English breeder (Richards, Thompson, Goode, Bellfield, etc...) as many of you may or may not know, bred for individual performance (Pensom 1958, p. 108). High velocity, Style and depth were the aims and goals. Bill Pensom, Smith, Plona, Mathews, Hein’s etc... Also continued with this tradition. Does the forum believe what the original birds were bred for has been overlooked? I, Dorton, Borges / Kiser,Jackson, Luna, Sparks, Sandavol, Elliot Norwood, T. Davis and a few others practice what the originators believed in. Note: This question has nothing to do with kit competition or the World cup but it has to do with what individuals focus on when breeding and flying their birds. I would like to know what others have observed.
Last Edited by on Feb 23, 2008 5:40 AM
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birdman
166 posts
May 13, 2006
9:48 AM
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I believe that velocity, style, and depth are what all serious rollermen breed for. However, the competitor must also breed for kitting and frequency, which in my opinion, makes for more of a challenge than if breeding for an individual.
I don't believe that what the early founders were breeding for has been overlooked in a general sense as it will vary from loft to loft. The champions can still be found as individuals as well as in kits.
My 2 cents.
Russ
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
2 posts
May 13, 2006
9:55 AM
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Hey 3757, What up,I do agree with you that this sport has been comprimised still through all these years , even since Pensom's time and probably before that.I am glad to see that there is still some breeders that have the focus to keep breeding the high calibre pigeon called the spinner or individual. Keep up the good work.(WITH-OUT COMPROMISE). thats the hook.......>>>>>>I know you will touch soft spots out there. SO LETS HEAR IT......>>>>>>>Richard Luna>>>>>>>>>>
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3757
9 posts
May 13, 2006
9:59 AM
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Russ - Your point is well taking and this is one misconception that many individuals miss when one speaks about individual performance. Many cannot conceive of the concepts (due to the fact that it is not popular) and think that only one, two or three birds are flown without regards to kitting and frequency. Far from it! The originators and the followers today flew birds in kits and frequency and kitting are part of the observation of the individual performer. Kit Turns, on the other hand were not part of the evaluation of the individual performer.
Last Edited by on Feb 23, 2008 5:40 AM
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Mount Airy Lofts
217 posts
May 13, 2006
10:26 AM
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LD,
When I hear individual performace, I see Water fall type breaks. Then if this is so, why is it mentioned in books that guys back then also treasured concert performance I do not know...
If you are to compete, you need to breed a bird that possesses all that is ask for...
The only thing I see missing in the concert performer (teamster) vs. the individual Water Fall performer is the depth. Every thing else is there. The latter just seems to be more deep. Altho I have seen some competition teams that carry depth as well as every thing else. I guess if one is to step up his program to the next level, one can breed any thing.
Maybe I have confused the phase individual performance... correct me if I am wrong.
Then again, there is always the 11 bird fly.
Thor
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GREED FOR SPEED
12 posts
May 13, 2006
10:39 AM
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Birdman,I agree with you that, that that is what rollermen try to breed, but the truth of the matter is they dont and in no disresect they dont know how to.Velocity and style which should be the first perspective is of course of different interpetation ,they are those that see this and try to achieve this without compromise.You can breed this in quantity (kits-kits). Individuals are not just one or two in your kits, if you work or breed for it your, percentage will only incline through the years, as long as you dont compromise.>>>>>>>>>>>>late>>>>>>>>>>>>Richard
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knaylor
172 posts
May 13, 2006
11:12 AM
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I think what alot of guys do not realize is these two points.
1. Good birds are breed
2. good teams are trained
What I am saying is that the good spinners are bred. You can also have a good team of spinners but if you do not train them properly then they will not work as a team. I also think it takes time to do both. Kevin
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birdman
167 posts
May 13, 2006
11:14 AM
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Once a person has seen a 'real deal' high velocity, stylish roller, they will know what to breed for. Unfortunately, some roller breeders have never seen a high class bird in the air and don't have the mental picture burned into their memory.
Russ
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3757
10 posts
May 13, 2006
11:15 AM
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Thor - I respect your opiniion but many people cannot conceive of individual performance and have never seen a champion. If someone witneses a champion they will never be the same again. In the last 20 years all emphasis has been on kit performance. Individual spinning qualities has nothing to do with turns waterfall or any of that stuff. It is almost like trying to explain to a stand up fighter about ground techniques. If he or she has never grappled they will not comprehend. I trully believe that we should have Pensom standard competitions and kit competitions. This is why Bill brought over the English kit competion rollers to show American fanciers the difference. If there was no difference he would not have brought these birds over. Much of the true history has been lost due to many wanting to fill Bill's shoes and skewing the facts. Kit competition has help the sport to grow but when original idea's are put forth it is downplayed. If your ideoligies are not what the masses believe in you are talked about. He doesn't fly in the world cup etc... Our hobby is bigger than that. Does all great martial artist fight in the ultimate challege? If you do not does this negate the fact that you are not a true marial artist? I do not think so.
LD
Last Edited by 3757 on May 13, 2006 11:22 AM
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3757
11 posts
May 13, 2006
11:23 AM
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Russ - Good point!
LD
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motherlodelofts
759 posts
May 13, 2006
11:59 AM
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LD one thing that these birds do is "break" together , to be honest the only thing that gets my heart really pumping is a hard hammer break of qaulity birds, poor birds do nothing for me and individules are nice but even better when there are several good ones in a working team of birds.
I know Borges and Kieser , in fact I fly with Borges and just spent a half a day with him on Wed.
Scott
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knaylor
173 posts
May 13, 2006
12:14 PM
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LD, not sure what you are saying. Are you saying that all that should matter is individual performance? If so then if you see a kit at a guys house and he only has three birds spinning that is a good kit?? What is your opinion of a champion? Kevin
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3757
12 posts
May 13, 2006
1:18 PM
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As I said before I did not say all that matter's is this or that I am saying that individual performance is the first criteria for me and a few others. We are not right or wrong but we can have a discussion with different opinions? As I said if you do not follow the masses people get upset. (William Hyla Pensom, 1968) "The roller fancy is notorious for its confusion." "In striving to produce the ideal spinning Birmingham Roller, many breeders are apt to confine their choice of breeding material to those individuals which conform to the desired standard of performance during flight." " taking the fancy as a whole, there are very few birds worthy of the name Birmingham Roller, and I should say at a guess that a champion occurs once in a thousand(William Hyla Pensom, 1948)". Their is a standard for individual performance and most people still want to mix kit performance with the standard. If I witness one champion (See Bill Pensom's writtens for champion definition: The definition is over 120 years old) in a kit I would keep my eyes on that bird. I went to a world cup fly recently and a gentleman had a real spinner in the kit. The entire crowd said that his birds were flat and no one commented on that awesome pigeon. I wonder what is the standard for some?
LD
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3757
13 posts
May 13, 2006
1:21 PM
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Scott - Joe Borges is a really great man and I respect him tremendously. Joe Borges has been very kind to me as well as Dorton and kiser.
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knaylor
174 posts
May 13, 2006
1:33 PM
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LD, you will find that the standard of a spinner and a standard if a real champion fill differ frome person to person. I also feel that if you talk to 10 different guys about Pensoms champion you would be amazed at the differences. I have seen kits that have been flat but did have one spinner in it. Did it impress me . Not at all. Why?? breed a bunch of birds and only get one spinner. To me that is not good at all and I would be getting rid of alot of breeders. kevin
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3757
14 posts
May 13, 2006
1:55 PM
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Kevin - I knew many of the greats personally and the ten that I would speak with will have the same answer "awesome". Bill Patrick, Dorton, Bruce Cooper and Eddie Hebert are good friends of mine and are still alive and they will tell you about Bill's ability. This man is responsible for the birds that I have and what you are probably flying. Many have tried to discredit him but they cannot because the facts speak for themselves. As I said earlier people do not understand and still think that I am talking about one bird in the kit etc. I rest my case.
Last Edited by on Feb 23, 2008 5:40 AM
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knaylor
175 posts
May 13, 2006
2:06 PM
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Dr. LD I too agree that pensom is one of the reasons that the roller is where it is at today. All I am asking you is to explain what you are talking about. Naming people that you know doesnt explain anything to me. Kevin
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3757
15 posts
May 13, 2006
2:10 PM
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"I also feel that if you talk to 10 different guys about Pensoms champion you would be amazed at the differences." Kevin the names were in response to your comment only.
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knaylor
176 posts
May 13, 2006
2:36 PM
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LD, I am sorry but it still doesnt explain to me what you are getting at? I just want to understand what you are meaning. I am not bashing your birds or Anyone that you know or you. Just wanting to understand what you are meaning. Kevin
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3757
16 posts
May 13, 2006
2:56 PM
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Kevin - Let me break it down this way. A bird should have the highest aerial qualities high velocity, style and depth (8- 10 yards). "Speed, sytle and tightness are the greatest qualities a roller can have." It is these qualities that should be observed first. Then comes kitting ability etc. Can someone really watch 20 high velocity spinners and describe to you the qualities of all? Of course not, because it is humanly impossible. That is why we should also have competitions for individual’s high quality spinners as well so that the young fanciers can understand the difference. If someone can actually see all 20 birds and the detailed quality of all they cannot be from earth. I know that you did not discredit my birds or others but it is almost the same as when I teach my college students intro to statistics. Until they do the problems and see how statistics works through tapes etc. some do not get it.
Last Edited by 3757 on May 13, 2006 3:28 PM
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knaylor
177 posts
May 13, 2006
3:38 PM
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LD, I see now. MY opinion is that too except that kitting is very important. Doesnt a champion have to roll from the kit and then go straight back to the kit? Kevin
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nicksiders
583 posts
May 13, 2006
3:43 PM
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I have always felt that the Birmingham is a kit bird and without the close kitting and the team work from there of why not just fly Orientals?
You can still pick up individual performers. It doen't take you long to spot the champions.
Just my opinion
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motherlodelofts
760 posts
May 13, 2006
4:15 PM
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It is nothing if it doesn't kit , I agree though new flyers need to be taught an shown what a first class bird is.
To many just see a bird rolling and think that makes it good and don't have a clue how analize the roll for qaulity , sonme just can't see it and never will.
Scott
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3757
17 posts
May 13, 2006
4:37 PM
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Kevin - A champion will always stay with the kit and will be your best kit bird.
Scott - You are correct.
LD
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nicksiders
584 posts
May 13, 2006
6:55 PM
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Simply....it is no fun without the kit.
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Mount Airy Lofts
218 posts
May 13, 2006
8:34 PM
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LD,
I'd like to believe I have seen that ultimate performance. Most of my visits to other lofts have produced duds in the air. Once in a while, I'll see a outstanding performer. One I would rate with some of the best out there. But the ultimate performance was not seen at other lofts. It was seen in my own back yard. The reason I think I don't see birds of that calibre during my visits is because it just doesn't happen every day nor do I visit them every day. My experience, the ultimate performance is quite rare. If the planets a line just right, it will come forth in the right bird. Altho, this same bird may never do it again if it does, rarely. Such is a reason I believe one will be hard to see such quality during his visits to other lofts. Another thing that happens is that most guys will stock such birds before you get to see it in the air because of the preds. I have not yet seen a ultimate Blurr perform to that level day after day. If you have, let me know and so I can come over to witness such a RARE performer.
I have to admit, I have seen birds that start to blurr out their wings and look like a base ball repeat such a performance time and time again but the ultimate blurr (fuzzing out)... is another story.
You truly have me lost now with your individual performer description. I got my diffiniation from a video I watched done by the NBRC 'Carolina Big Fly 1989'. In that video, there is referrence to individual performance. Such was referred to birds that held everything but breaking together. From reading every thing I can get a hold of, the description matches what I saw on that video.
Now from my understanding, if you wanted competition birds... you would not breed from such a bird that would throw your team off sync. Such is a bird that would roll before a break or one that would roll after the break or one that would roll as it joins it's team mates.... etc. Such birds will give you water fall type breaks.
The birds guys now want are birds that would work with it's team and possess everything. Such birds are being bred as it can be seen when you stand under the kits being flown. Not every team will hold Champions or close to it but it will hold atleast one that can do all what it's owner ask and more.
The only competition I know that of Pensom and his era competitors flew in was flys for money or birds. The best bird takes all as I have read. The later flys were flown under Tumbler rules.
I like an individual performer but would love it more if it worked with it's team mate as well. To my knowledge, these birds were bred to fly as a team... why shouldn't they work as a team as well.
Thor
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3757
18 posts
May 13, 2006
9:29 PM
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Again - Misinterpretation of the individual performer and trying to equate the standard performer with kits / turns etc. It is a requirement that individual performers kit with the team. If true spinners do not kit they are garbage. It is amazing to me how the standard has been lost and when you speak of the individual performer people only think of one bird performing in the kit and all others are doing nothing at all. I grew up in the Pensom era and feel the same way about the standard as the when we had the dual purpose roller discussion in the 60's and 70's. This does not mean I am against kit competition. However, I am against group think and people not open to old /new ideas (This view is not directed to anyone who posted a message or anyone on this post but is a general comment). I thank you all for your comments and views.
Last Edited by on Feb 23, 2008 5:40 AM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
520 posts
May 13, 2006
10:07 PM
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LD, the individual performer IS one bird....lol.
Here is my view of what you originally asked.
The Champion roller is in the eye of the beholder.
I don't believe there are any fewer people today seeking to breed the very best roller they possibly can as compared to 40 years ago in this country.
The best spinners, not just rollers, I have ever seen were in competition kits. On our recent WC quals, I witnessed one bird in a flyer's kit which was Stellar in it's performance with super quality, fast, tight and very deep spin with a giant heart to return to the kit to do it again. I also witnessed a rather new competition flyer put up some Outstanding spinners that were some of the best spinners I have seen as a group lately.
I've seen a handful or rollers that spun in such a manner that there is in my opinion, no possible way that a roller could roll any faster, cleaner, straighter or tighter...thus Champion quality...and were in competition kits.
I believe that whether a person emphasizes breeding strictly for that super roller, or breeding for the best spinners he can for his competition kits, the resulting number of star birds produced in either instance will be the same.
It is my opinion that in the end, what flys over a person's house is the direct result of his passion and desire. You get out what you put in.
It has been my experience that most people who solicit their position as being a breeder who only breeds for the Champion roller as determined by forefathers they greatly respect, are generally also ones who offer the comments in return for being asked why they do not fly in competitions.
I believe that overall, every experienced and educated roller fancier is looking to breed the very best performer they can and regardless of their position, will always have some there to contradict the description of their intentions.
I don't breed for the individual performer, nor do I care to follow in the footsteps of my roller forefathers. I appreciate the diligence of those who set the roller breed into motion and were willing to share their knowledge with others. But that doesn't mean that I will be selecting specifically for the champion individual. My enjoyment with my rollers is the challenge to put up the very best spinners I have bred into a competition kit that can exhibit teamwork and chemistry with precision rolling. To me that is precisely what the roller pigeon is supposed to be.
Brian.
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knaylor
178 posts
May 14, 2006
12:26 AM
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Brian, well said!!!! I too have been in many backyards and the best birds are allways in the guys backyards that compete. LD, I believe that if the bird is not doing it from the kit then it doesnt matter what its doing because it is garbage. So I put kitting right up there with style, speed, and tightness First. Maybe you should try and get out to comps to see what great birds some guys are flying?Kevin
Last Edited by knaylor on May 14, 2006 12:28 AM
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3757
19 posts
May 14, 2006
4:03 AM
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How do we get off making statements about me or anyone else going to comps etc. How do you know what I do or do not do? The original discussion was to have a discussion regarding a standard.
Fact # 1 My original statement said, “This question has nothing to do with kit competition or the World cup but it has to do with what individuals focus on when breeding and flying their birds.”
Fact# 2 Their is a standard for individual performance and most people still want to mix kit performance with the standard.
Fact # 3 "Speed, sytle and tightness are the greatest qualities a roller can have (Bill Pensom)." It is these qualities that should be observed first. Then comes kitting ability etc.
Fact #4 It is a requirement that individual performers kit with the team. If true spinners do not kit they are garbage.
Fact#5 - Where was backyard breeder's stated in my discussion?
I guess it is impossible to have an intelligent discussion on this form without bashing. I attended the world cup two weeks ago and witnessed some great birds at T. Davis's home. Please do not tell me what I should or should not do as this is not what this forum is about.
Last Edited by 3757 on May 14, 2006 8:45 AM
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knaylor
179 posts
May 14, 2006
8:58 AM
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LD,
FACT#1-I did not bash or tell you what to do!
FACT#2- You said that guys today are getting away from what the bird is supposed to be bred for!
FACT#3- There is no STANDARD in rollers!
FACT#4- This is the best open forum on rollers out there and if you put something out there people are going to tell you what they think. If you do not want their opinion then dont ask! Kevin
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GREED FOR SPEED
13 posts
May 14, 2006
9:09 AM
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3757--DR LD,Could it be that, it was phrased wrong when it was said the INDIVIDUAL(maybe) I believe it should have been written INDIVIDUAL'S. The misconception that some fanciers have, they think it's focused on one bird,(LMAO).The individuals are bred to the higher level of having all the proprties of calibre IN QUANTITY (yes it can be done),I have seen it over and over .it just takes focus and dedication like I said before without comprimse, and compromise has been done on a high percent. Some have the eye for it and some dont and will never see it or get it. Take horses they are animals who do the same thing,eat,shit jump and run ,but there is the race horse that is bred for his fastness the right muscles the heart ,character and his genectics (a special kind of horse, wouldn't you say) of course, if this horse wasn't bred for this talent, well it just would not be a race horse.......Not all rollers can spin it takes special properties and the right breeders to breed the INDIVIDUALS with out compromise. If the fancier wants to breed for just kit (action ,scoring,points)that's ok and respected, but breeding spinners(individual's)in kits can be done also and we to should be respected for it. As PENSOM wrote (THAT THERE IS NOTHING LIKE THE INDIVIDUAL-INDIVIDUAL'S (SPINNERS) IN THE AIR),that statement holds so true..........3757.......Keep your cool..... what you write I agree with and are right but dont get up set with the fanciers who can not see it yet.......LATER DUDE>>>>>><>Richard LUNA>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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GREED FOR SPEED
14 posts
May 14, 2006
9:20 AM
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Knaylor, there is definately a standard for the SPINNER, even for the roller, for the both of these one of these standards is stlye(quality) of the roll or spin ,wing placement another. We cant have dish rags up in the air or junk like wing swithing , man those kind of birds should be killed, you must agree.......Richard Luna......
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knaylor
180 posts
May 14, 2006
9:33 AM
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Richard, I do agree that there is a standard for a scorable roll. It could be A pattern or H pattern. I too think that the garbage birds need to be culled. Trust me I have seen plenty that werent. BUT the BR is the only pigeon that does not have a standard as far as the bird its self. I personally like it that way because standards are for Show birds and I do not think the BR belongs in a show pen. Kevin
P.S. not sure what I dont see yet???
Last Edited by knaylor on May 14, 2006 9:36 AM
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3757
20 posts
May 14, 2006
9:50 AM
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Greed - Agreed!
Kevin - There is a standard for the Birmingham Roller. One is not right or wrong for what they breed for but there is a standard.
Last Edited by 3757 on May 14, 2006 10:05 AM
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motherlodelofts
761 posts
May 14, 2006
11:10 AM
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There most definetly a standard , otherwise we would accepting wingswitchers and such as acceptable (some of which do already) , they must hold the standard from start to finish.
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knaylor
181 posts
May 14, 2006
11:38 AM
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Guys, then show me in writing that is published and accepted by the Breed of the standard. I am not talking of the standard of a scorable roll either. Kevin
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3757
21 posts
May 14, 2006
11:57 AM
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(Pensom 1945) "Lewis Wright says that the true Birmingham Roller turns over backwards with inconceivable rapidity through a considerable distance like a spinning ball, this sentence provides an excellent standard for the performance of a Birmingham roller. During my experience, I have always found a total ignorance regarding this standard, yet it is quite plain in its interpretation." His statement 61 years ago still holds true today.
(Pensom 1945) "What is a champion? I wil try to explain. First, a champion is the greatest of all performers, a bird difficult to obtain but not beyond the reach of any fancier who cares to produce one.""In the kit a champion can adjust its own performance to meet the requirement of others."
(Pensom 1945) "We are now sure about the standard performance."
(Pensom 1955) "A complete or incomplete knowledge of genetics is not the answer to breeding the perfect spinner. The proper understanding of the pigeon is derived from its character and temperment, and which is derived only from long years of experience, and has to be understood before you can juggle with genes, and the same applies to all livestock."
This is just a fraction!
Last Edited by on Feb 23, 2008 5:41 AM
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Mount Airy Lofts
219 posts
May 14, 2006
12:03 PM
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LD,
I'm clueless when it comes to individual performers. I want my birds to perform in concert and hence breed for such.
Does your diffinition of Individual performer include performing in concert (alot of birds rolling together at the exact time)?
Like I said, for some reason when I hear individual performance, I see water fall type rolling. Reminds me of the 11 bird flys. In that fly, quality of individual are judged and not breaks. Of course for any bird to be judged, it has to kit.
I don't think any one would care for any performer if it doesn't kit regardless of performance. That goes hand and hand.
I wasn't around when Pensom was alive but I doubt the quality back then has been loss in todays birds. Some times, memories are exagerated to olympic propotions. Do you really believe that yester years birds were of better quality and in bigger numbers then todays? I would like to believe that the birds being shared today is actually providing better birds then ever before.
Doesn't Individual mean one? If so, individual performance means one rolling at a time. Hence water fall?
I hear all the time that you can actually breed out concert performance. If this is so, then one would have nothing but Individual performers if he selects for such traits.
It sure helps to talk about such topics...
Thor
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3757
22 posts
May 14, 2006
12:43 PM
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Thor - I cannot take credit for the definition it started in the late 1880's with Lewis Wright. When a kit performs a full turn all birds are rolling individually at what appears to be the same exact time. I would like to ask how one breeds for concert performance? Do the individual qualities of speed / Velocity, style and depth have anything to do with your breeding? How do you judge your performers as a concert turn or individually? If one can stop concert performance by breeding to the standard can't one eliminate high quality performance by not? Was Bill Pensom wrong? You are correct Thor that we do need to discuss the topics so that we can share information and uplift the hobby. Your view, mine or others are not the only way but it is great discussion. Thanks for your comments.
LD
Last Edited by 3757 on May 14, 2006 12:46 PM
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motherlodelofts
762 posts
May 14, 2006
1:12 PM
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It doesn't have to be written although many try , why are Diamonds of the value that they are ? because they are a thing of beauty and are rare ,thats why , qaulity is ballbearing smooth where lack of isnt due to astedics.
A first class bird is a first class bird no matter what country you are in ,the same holds true with culls
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knaylor
182 posts
May 14, 2006
1:53 PM
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There is a standard for a roll or scorable roll(in compitition), this I agree on. But for the bird itself there is not. Plus everyone has their own opinion what is a standard roll and it will ALWAYS be different. I also think that people do not breed for the unison breaks they breed for good birds. You get a good team with unison breaks by training them with lots of hard work and time. I personally would rather see a good team with as many as 10-12 birds spinning at the same time with better quality and depth, than a team with maybe a couple of spinners with the same quality and depth. Kevin
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J_Star
431 posts
May 14, 2006
1:57 PM
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It is NOT difficult to breed for concert performers. As a matter of fact, the majority of the 20 bird kit flyers strive to breed for that.
Jay
Last Edited by J_Star on May 14, 2006 1:58 PM
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knaylor
183 posts
May 14, 2006
2:27 PM
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Jstar, I dont know of any that breed for that. How do you do it?? Kevin
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Opinionated Blowhard
39 posts
May 14, 2006
3:14 PM
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3757: You cite "The Black Country English breeder (Richards, Thompson, Goode, Bellfield, etc...) as many of you may or may not know, bred for individual performance (Pensom 1958, p. 108). High velocity, Style and depth were the aims and goals. Bill Pensom, Smith, Plona, Mathews, Hein’s etc..."
Who was Mathews? Just curious. Kevin
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3757
23 posts
May 14, 2006
3:33 PM
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Al Mathews. Al was responsible for Lester Lehmeyer's introduction to Bill Pensom. He was a close and personal friend of Bill Pensom, Lester Lehmeyer and Joe Heins. Al lived in Southern California and raised some excellent spinners to the standard. He was also a member of the old PRC club when they were breeding performing Birmingham rollers.
Last Edited by on Feb 23, 2008 5:41 AM
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motherlodelofts
763 posts
May 14, 2006
5:19 PM
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Jay for it being so easy it sure is hard , at least with qaulity, it takes the birds and a lot of work.
Right now I am working hard at building a decent team after loosing my old bird team, there has never been anything easy with these birds for me , at least not for what I am looking for.
Scott
PS what makes for a stunning woman ? it is the same for a first class bird , few will disagree with either.
Those that do are either gay and or color breeders, LOL oh I just can't help myself LOL
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on May 14, 2006 7:08 PM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
521 posts
May 14, 2006
5:35 PM
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Is it just me or does there appear to be an underlying consensus that a person cannot breed for the super individual AND for a competition team at the same time? This is what I am getting from this discussion. Someone correct me if I am mistaken.
Brian.
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motherlodelofts
764 posts
May 14, 2006
7:07 PM
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Brian what do the best competion teams consist of ?
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birdman
168 posts
May 14, 2006
7:13 PM
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Isn't a team made up of individuals that are working together?
Russ
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