Double D
214 posts
May 23, 2006
8:37 PM
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Since I haven't flown in competition yet, I have a question. It stems from flying my birds at my house. I have some large trees across the street and another one in my neighbor's yard. Sometimes when my birds are in the air, they fly far enough away that they drop down behind my house if I'm in my back yard and I can't see them. Sometimes up to half of the 40 or so minutes that they fly, they are out of my view. If I climbed up on top of my house I could probably see them most of the time. Between the trees and surrounding houses, I'm wondering how a judge is ever going to score them. Those of you who fly competitions and live in neighborhoods, how does it go? Are your kits often out of the judge's view or do the birds circle right above your house? My birds are still young but they fly some pretty wide circles and are sometimes a couple of miles away. When that happens, I can make the kit out in the air but there is no way I could see a break and the judge won't either. Do kits shorten up their circles as they mature? Towards the end of the fly they tend to stay closer to home and I see them without problem except for the trees they like to fly behind, (the trees across the street are like a 5 story bush, you can't see nothing behind them and they eat up alot of sky). I'm just wondering how it actually goes for those of you who fly your kits for judges under these same types of neighborhood circumstances where your standing in your back yard. I'm considering building some kind of tower the judge can stand on or make him climb up on my roof, LOL. Thanks for the input.
Darin
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Alohazona
152 posts
May 23, 2006
11:17 PM
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Darin,
Good birds fly a good pattern,whether its back and forth or the desireable figure 8 .I said that first because that is the bottom line.It will take some time to fly a team into condition to be competitive with them.Weather and adjusting the feed is a constant occurrence to get the birds to fly right to set up for breaks and rolling.Once you have the number of birds you want and think you have them selected right for breaks and rolling,don't add any new ones.Part of management is having seperate kitboxes for birds developing the same or near same.It will generally take a year or so to get a team strong and uniform.So keep flying them,try not to add new ones especially youngsters and start to develop a sense of when the birds need to be rested as time goes by.They should fly a good pattern over your home.Most competitors deal with obstacles,trees ,sun,roof tops etc.So I revert back to my opening statement"A good family of birds will fly a good pattern for performance".Theres always the option of using your 5 minute time out, till they come back into view to be judged.Aloha,Todd
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Velo99
443 posts
May 24, 2006
4:54 AM
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Feed em a more oily seeds and get em up a little bit higher. Might make a difference if it doesn`t take em too high.
v99
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J_Star
441 posts
May 24, 2006
5:03 AM
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DD, When your birds are old enough for comp, they will fly the proper heights and will do figure 8. Sure feed and management will contribute to that but for the most part they will exhibit that behavior. Once they mature to about 7 to 9 months, you will see a big difference and once they pass their first molt you will notice a big change in performance and behavior and sometimes character.
Jay
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Planet_Rock_Lofts
51 posts
May 24, 2006
5:12 AM
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Anyone,
What feeds should I give my birds to get them to fly lower and shorter amount of time. They are currently flying 1hr to 1 1/2 hours (way too long).
Planet Rock Lofts
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Santandercol
73 posts
May 24, 2006
6:21 AM
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I'm feeding straight whole wheat up till now and my birds fly 3-400 ft above the house for 25 minutes.They don't seem to want to eat more than 1 tbsp per day morning feeding,with no food till after they fly on fly days.
Health to our birds,
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Kellinos
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661roller
20 posts
May 24, 2006
9:19 AM
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Kel,
be careful with the straight wheat. I did that before and after a while they turned into lawn darts. Had to mix pellets and/or peas and other grains in to get them back to proper flying/rolling. Some of the darts never straightened out and had to be culled.
Jim W.
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
48 posts
May 24, 2006
10:15 AM
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?, what are you feeding now? try 12% or 14% mix wheat or milo, even barley, you will have to experiment and play with it. dont expect instead results it will take time for your birds to adjust(couple weeks), give them there water and take it away for the day,(pending on the wheather temps......good luck,.......
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kcfirl
19 posts
May 24, 2006
10:20 AM
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All of the above is bullshit. I've seen judges on roofs, on towers, running down the block to keep thekit in site.
No training method will alleviate the problem of lots of tall trees and or buildings in the immediate area. You put the judge in the best possible place for viewing the birds and then beg him to move around if possible.
All the advice above about fling higher, training birds properly, etc are off base.
The birds need to fly low to be seen well and won't even be judged if they go too high.
Keep the birds down, put the judge where he can see them best, and hope for no wind or wind from the right direction. With experience, you wil learn where the judge should be to see your birds the best, given the weather conditions.
Sincerely,
Ken Firl
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
50 posts
May 24, 2006
10:45 AM
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KC. how can you say its b-s ,these flyers got to try what it takes for whats best for them and if it works (great),perhaps your program could be adjusted? I wish I had a joy stick to keep them at a certain height but i know i'am not in control,so we do what we can.......
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kcfirl
20 posts
May 24, 2006
2:37 PM
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Greed for speed,
who are you and what is your competition experience?
You aid how can I say it's BS because we're not in control? All the above advice was based on controlling the birds to do something different.
I've been a WC RD, a NBRC RD, an 80 member club president, flown in more than 100 competition flies, had top judges from around the world spend weekends with me and sleep in my house.
I'm telling you from my experience, the issue above is not about doing somehting different with the birds, it's about being at a disadvantage due to the trees and postioining the judge to your best advantage.
OK - now - how about a little of your experience and your recommendations.
Sincerely,
Ken Firl
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Velo99
445 posts
May 24, 2006
5:34 PM
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Ok Firl(ing),
Right after we have had a disucssion in civility and you come and jump on Luna. He is a newbie to the site but obviously not to rollers. I would like to take this opportunity to bring a little more light on the record you hold so dear.
I will preface it by saying this : the rd`s do an unthanked task no one else will or wants to do . For that I commend you. However having a judge sleep over doesn`t make you a great pigeon guy. I had Heine stay over and scored a big fat zero. Ron Duncan came to my house on a good day and I qualified for the WC in my first competetion with 507.62. Doesn`t matter who you are or who you know,it is in the air Ken. In my region if one can`t field a 500 point kit you probably won`t make it.
I see in FF `04 you won the region and didn`t fly in the big show. Why is that Ken?
In `05 you scored 14.52 points in the FF qualifier.In `05 you qualified in the WC with 122.85 and scored 75.79 in the finals,62nd place.In the WC `06 WC quals you scored 65.52 points.Maybe Luna was right and you need to open your eyes a bit Ken. I recall an article in the NBRC magazine about your kit not quite being able to get the break started and the writer wanted to refer to that pareticular action as "Firling".
This is not meant to be disrespectful only enlightening.
yits
V99
Last Edited by Velo99 on May 24, 2006 5:37 PM
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knaylor
205 posts
May 24, 2006
5:53 PM
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Guys, I know that Ken came on a little strong. But he has a very very good point. Here are some FACTS
1- a good team and what you feed them will NOT allways fly a good pattern or a figure 8 pattern at any age.
2-If you feed them to elevate they will and most likely will be out of range to judge.
3-Kenny just because you had a judge score your kit 500 points does not mean all judges will. Look at all the high scores in the qualifiers and then look at the finals score. There is a reason there is a big difference, and its not because they had a bad fly.
4-you can not use a time out just because they fly behind trees or any other object. (study the rules before you compete)
6-after you compete a few times you will see just how much of a problem the trees really are.
Thats about it, Kevin
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Velo99
446 posts
May 24, 2006
6:25 PM
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If your gonna include me in your post Naylor get it right, I also included in the same post I had Heine stay at my house and scored zero. Dont try to make me out to be some dumass who does`nt know a motormouth when he sees one.
yits
v99
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Double D
216 posts
May 24, 2006
6:25 PM
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I certainly didn't mean to get anyone fired up with my question and I certainly appreciate all the feedback. My birds are about 4 months old and fly at all kinds of heights throughout the fly time. Hopefully, when they do mature, moult, etc. things will change a little bit and they'll tighten up their fly pattern. Thanks!
Darin
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Velo99
447 posts
May 24, 2006
6:31 PM
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Darin ,
Wasn`t your question bro, some of us have forgotten what tact is. With a bit of research one can find the truth. The numbers don`t lie.
yits
v99
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fhtfire
449 posts
May 24, 2006
7:52 PM
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Ken....boy...you came out swinging...LOL!!! To all...I know Ken on a personal level...he is a real nice guy...sometimes what is written is taken out of context...because you do not get to see all the other things that make a sentence have a certain meaning...like tone of voice, body language, facial expressions...Since...I know ken...I could actually picture him talking....and it made me laugh...because I know he did not mean it like it sounds..anyway...Ken means no harm....LOL!!
Double D...I will give my opinion for what it is worth..As for the flight pattern...yes and no on controling the flight patter...can you control what pattern they fly with feed...NOPE! You can control the pattern the birds fly...by making the right bird selection. Remember when I wrote the post about really looking at a kit...bird by bird....you CAN have one bird make the kit fly in little circles...you can have a couple birds make the kit fly on the left wing or right wing....you can have some "Lead Birds" fly the kit in a figure 8 pattern. Weather and wind has some bearing on what pattern the birds fly too. So, you can't and can control the flight pattern,,,, with weather on your side of course... pulling and adding certain birds will make the kit fly certain patterns....The same goes for breaks...one bird can make a team of birds fly right through the break...pulling birds can make birds not break..perfect example...my W/C team....I pulled two of my best birds for the stock loft and my kit went to shit....the two birds I pulled were trigger birds...then I lost three birds that were part of the "core" of the team...and they would not break together...they were lost....just from adding and removing birds....bird selection and feed can control the speed the bird flys too.
AS for how high the birds fly....YES you can control them with feed...again...to a point...weather can be a huge issue too as well as genetics. If I feed my birds protein in the mix...they will fly a little higher.....if I add wheat milo only..they will fly lower...if I cut the feed with protein..the will go up high and then come down sooner...if I do wheat/milo...they will fly at a good height and then come down a lot sooner. Of course...weather will push the birds up....or keep them down too.....so you have to play with the feed...if they are young birds...they should be getting all they can eat...to the point that they trap good...they should be getting high protein feed too...until they really come into the roll and then they get the food played with...and more rest time.
Young birds do all kinds of wierd shit....they are also very inconsistant. My secret to getting the birds up when they are young...is that I have two older birds that are not worth a shit as far as the roll...but they are my "trainer birds" they kit real tight and react real good with the young birds....since the young birds will follow an older bird...I use the older birds to keep the young birds up...they also help the young birds trap..because it is monkey see..monkey do.
RIght now I have 8 young birds that are on the wing real good and they fly with the two older "trainer birds"...I have 3 more that just started flying and they fly together and will fly with the kit for awhile but they will pull out and come down..because they are real young.....the other birds do not follow...because...they follow the older birds and stay up. DON"T stress over your young birds...they will fly high one day and low the next.
Just do the old...trial and error...feed them up and see what happens....then release two or three at a time and see if they go up..you may have a weaker bird...keeping the whole team down..so really look at the kit overall and see if there is a bird that is acting up. There is no right anwser..you have to just try different things. I have also been known to get my young bird team back up in the air....by flying my B-team with them to get them up..(that is sometimes)
As far as judging...I have seen judges run from the back yard to the front yard to keep an eye on the birds. I have seen judges on top of roofs to get a good look. If you have to build a little tower...then do it.....Again,....feed them up....sometimes...resting them for two days and feeding them all they want will wake them up a little. Just remember..you can control..time and height with feed..to a point...you control the pattern the birs fly with bird selection....again to a point....I think you just have some young birds and they are going through a phase...you just don't want them to get used to the phase they are in...so you have to shake up the rotation...fly half the kit...or split the kit....rest them...try a different fly time...just shake it up.>>>take them down the block..that helps too...
rock and ROLL
Paul
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knaylor
206 posts
May 24, 2006
8:00 PM
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Kenny, I did include what you said and I DID get it right. U said that in your region if you cant put up 500 points you probably wont make it. That all depends on the judge!!!!!! What part of that cant you get. Then you brought up Kens scores.Out here we DO NOT use loose judges period!!!!!!!!! so you probably will not see a 500 point kit!!!!!!!!!! Those are the facts. In my life I have never seen a 500 point kit. I know they are out there and I have seen plenty of very good kits. With realistic judges high scores just dont get passed they have to really earn it. In time I hope you will realize this. Ken has been around, he has judged on the national level. He has competed in all the flies. He runs the California State fly. If he was just a blowhard i dont think he would be doing all of this. Kenny just take a moment and think about it. Kevin
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
545 posts
May 24, 2006
8:53 PM
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Darin, I think you will find that once the birds in the kit start to put some active roll together, they will lift. That is what I experience with all of my young kits. Once the roll comes, they seek to put some distance between their ass and the ground. Another trick that can helps sometimes is to add a few old hens if you have them.
Brian.
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Double D
218 posts
May 24, 2006
9:26 PM
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Great post Paul! Thanks for the phone call also- some great ideas. Even though many opinions seem to differ, I appreciate the different views because it gives me ideas of things to think about and watch for to determine if it is applicable to my particular family of birds. The more I learn the more I realize I don't know and I'm sure my first year will continue to be a huge learning curve. After that, maybe I'll have enough experience to draw from to begin putting "do's" and "don'ts" together and what's going to work for me but in the mean time, I appreciate being able to learn all I can from the diverse sources of information that come from all the great people that post here. KF-keep the posts coming. I'm sure there's a bunch many of us can learn from you also and I like straight-forward people even if they know most others will disagree with them. That's what makes for a good learning situation.
Darin
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knaylor
207 posts
May 24, 2006
10:39 PM
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Double D, sounds like you have a very open mind and that will help you out in this hobby alot. You will learn the most by doing and trying things out. Also glad Paul could help you out. Just dont let him talk you in to going for a ride in his convertable!!!! LOL he knows what I am talking about. Kevin
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fhtfire
451 posts
May 24, 2006
10:54 PM
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LOL LOL!!! Kevin...you crack my ass up!! Now that I think about it...Two dudes in that car...does look a little ODD...LOL..Its my wifes car....remember..I have the Nova SS.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Alohazona
153 posts
May 25, 2006
1:07 AM
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Ken,
Hope for no wind or wind from the right direction????HMMM,I guess I'm doing it all wrong.The wind is the secret,lol,Aloha,Todd DiAntonio
Ps.Ken try to explain yourself about this wind thing,it makes no sense to me at all.At my place no wind days I DO NOT FLY,here they are called Kona wind days,any birds I have lost to overflys,have been on tell tale dead wind days.Our trade winds are a blessing they hold my team down and keep them from skying,the very same conditions the next day can have the opposite effect.I'm not saying it doesn't happen,but good birds don't have to be judged from rooftops,towers,or running down the street.Maybe de-caffeinated coffee is the better choice here.As for judges,sure tell them where the birds will viewed the best,but beg them to stand here or there??My pigeons beg I don't.Ken,glad your on board ,the more the merrier.
Last Edited by Alohazona on May 25, 2006 1:52 AM
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knaylor
208 posts
May 25, 2006
4:34 AM
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Todd, I know that you asked Ken the answere but it is very easy. No team flys in the same area every time. Also a good judge will do what he or she can to be able to view the kit at all times. Every house is different and has different viewing points. Plus the wind will determin where the kit will fly. If the wind is coming from the south the birds will not be on the south side of the house.
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
51 posts
May 25, 2006
5:14 AM
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KC,(chill) i've had my fill with comp. flying, but i wont put another drop of fuel to this fire.. later.. R-LUNA
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kcfirl
21 posts
May 25, 2006
5:54 AM
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Velo, Kenny, or whatever your name is,
did I say I fly hot kits? I have not had a good kit in more than 2 years. There is no deception going here, I only tried to explain to those on the list that if you want good answers to comp questions, look to guys that have been flying comp. And thank you for discounting my experience by trying to associate my poor showing wityh a lack of experience - very classy of you of you to knock down someone who spens much of his fly season helping coordinate the flies and running the show.
All I meant was this: if you have big trees near your house you are at a disadvantage. Doesn't mean you can't do well or win, you just need a bit more luck.
If the big trees are on the south side of your house, and you get a North wind, the birds will most likely spend most of the fly on the south side of the trees. Try to posiiton the jusge where he will see them there.
That is all I'm saying. The other management stuff about making them fly higher is simply wasted effort if the birds are already flying at a decent height.
If anyone is offended by the truth, I an happy to remove myself from this list. Why not have a vote? :-)
Sincerely,
Ken Firl
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tapp
95 posts
May 25, 2006
6:36 AM
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I think you need to stay KEN!!!!
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Tapp
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motherlodelofts
785 posts
May 25, 2006
9:07 AM
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I love clear crist blue days with just a hint of a breeze. Kens right.
You need to position the judge in the best spot, in an established nieghborhood where there are many mature trees , it may be in the street or even on the corner.
Conditions dictate this many time's.
One of my worst conditions is wind out of the North, it pushes the birds on the other side of the hill and behind a tree line, when that happens I put the judge on the small hill behind my loft.
Few judges won't ask where you want him to be to best view the team.
Scott
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Will Winsome
4 posts
May 25, 2006
10:45 AM
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Position the judge where you can slip him a 20 dollar bill without anyone seeing...
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Ballrollers
370 posts
May 25, 2006
12:23 PM
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Hey KenF,
Stick around man.We all need to hear the input of men with experience on the issues, whether we agree or disagree. It gives us perspective. Hell, if I high-tailed it everytime I ruffled somebodies feathers, I'd have been gone long ago! LOL! If you speak bluntly and directly to the issue, somebody is going to get offended, I can promise. That doesn't make the point wrong; not very tactful in making it, maybe, but not necessarily wrong. I know from experience! To tell the truth, I thought you were right on the money. I can tell you from personal experience that you can't compensate for the alteration of flight pattern caused by trees, by altering the feed. YITS, Cliff
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rust never sleeps
61 posts
May 25, 2006
1:06 PM
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Hey ken! 2002 my self, Richard Luna,David Sanchez,Richard Espinoza, were at your home on NBRC convevtion that year. You came a cross as a cool guy, your wife was so nice and great.Your kit you flow that day sky out, no action but we remember your hospitalty and the good looking stock birds you have. But maybe your anger should be pointed at Juan Navarro for making up the "DOING A FIRLING" when he's judging kit fly's and calling out your name when the team of rollers are not breaking together the way he see fit. no disrespect to you ken.But if you trash someone be prepared to be trash back. Richard Reyes
Last Edited by rust never sleeps on May 25, 2006 6:25 PM
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Velo99
448 posts
May 25, 2006
1:12 PM
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Yeah Ken
Stick around. I need someone to fight with. From what Paul said you`re probably as hard headed as I am.
If you wanna go back and read both posts yours and mine. I gave you kudos for being an RD.
I didn`t particularly care for the opening line of your post."All of the above is bullshit." Kinda sux huh? I don`t give a dang if you had rollers when you were in the cradle and have won 25 World Cups and the FF for the last 10 years that line doesn`t call up a great deal of respect Ken.
Naylor,
You`re saying the judge we get here is lax every year regardless. Thats why we have 500 point kits.I can give you Alex`s number and you can have that discussion with both he and Michael Baldwin. Talk about trying to downplay accomplishments.
If I remember correctly Naylor I told you about a year and a half ago I would be in the cup in 5 years or less. There it is buddy. If you would like I can go and bring it back up.
v99
Hey Firl, swing by and I`ll put up a kit and we`ll have a cold one bro.
Naylor,
Do we want to get into the thing Cliff and Scott had going last year. I`ll put em up against you anytime with any judge. I am so tired of this loose judge crap I could scream. I am good for a plane ticket and a motel room,how about you? Set a date in late September.
Alex Hamilton scored second spot 584 in the FF quals and 393. Loose judge or could the difference be one of the myriad of reasons we have discussed.
Perhaps you should rethink your position. We were all over the non competitors about competing. Now that we have competed against one another instead of saying my birds flew better than yours you say my judge GAVE me and my whole region points we didn`t deserve. You`ve heard the one about excuses are like.......
Last Edited by Velo99 on May 25, 2006 2:41 PM
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J_Star
442 posts
May 25, 2006
1:16 PM
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I get busy for a day and when I come back, I see good people trying to duke it out. There is not reason for scratched ego or hurt feelings here. Let us put the facts on the table and discuss the options in a friendly manner. What I am trying to say is really let us keep our good sportsmenship to its highest level. Thanks.
Jay
Last Edited by J_Star on May 25, 2006 1:17 PM
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Velo99
450 posts
May 25, 2006
2:15 PM
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Gee,
Are you guys just gonna sit there and take that crap. Everyone is addressing me except Cliff and Rich. I am not the one who came on the board and said "All of the above is bullshit." Then you guys start defending him. Sounds like a real likeable guy to me. Hell I invited him over for a beer and a kit. I`ll never understand but I`ll get along somehow
v99
Last Edited by Velo99 on May 25, 2006 2:47 PM
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dave
99 posts
May 25, 2006
2:33 PM
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Kenny,
I'm not defending them. Just wanted to say that they are nice guys and that maybe they can't express that by typing. You are a nice guy from what I have read from your previous posts and I would say the same thing about you if someone talked bad about you.
By the way, how are those navarro birds doing for you? I got the same stuff. If you need any help or pointers on them then let me know. I had some in my WC qualifing kit and will be breeding more of them.
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Velo99
451 posts
May 25, 2006
2:46 PM
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Dave
The Navarros are great. So far they seem to handle like the birds I already have. Thats why I picked them, they match my favorite type. Plus they are tight in the genes and smart as a whip. How long have you had your Nav`s?
yits
v99
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dave
100 posts
May 25, 2006
3:00 PM
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I've had them for about a year now. Got my breeders from Joe Emberton and Aris Punla. The birds are easy to handle and they are smart like you stated. I also like their size. The blues will probably turn out to be your better spinners.
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Velo99
453 posts
May 25, 2006
3:52 PM
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Thats god news Dave. I have a blue check baldie hen on eggs. Two red cocks and a solid white hen. I have been fostering the white hen(Juana). She is mated to a red check. Throwing a few storks but mostly heavy red griz. Squeaks are spinning some.
yits
v99
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motherlodelofts
788 posts
May 25, 2006
5:06 PM
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If anyone is offended by the truth, I an happy to remove myself from this list. Why not have a vote? :-)
Sincerely,
Ken Firl
Hmmm lets see hmmmm he's kind of a schmuck hmmmm opps I'm sorry was I thinking outloud again ? hmmmmm , do you need this vote right now ,or do I have time to mull it over ?
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knaylor
209 posts
May 25, 2006
5:37 PM
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Kenny, you want the truth to your question??? it is YES I do believe that you use leaneant judges most of the time. Now on the other hand did I ever say that my birds are better than yours? NO Did I say you didnt deserve to be in the finals?? No Who compaired the scores between two flyers with different judges and was putting down the scores?? YOU. Tell who ever you want because they allready know about my stance on easy judges. Kevin
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Velo99
454 posts
May 25, 2006
9:10 PM
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Geez Naylor,
Did I miss the part where I get to pick my own judge?
Now let me get this straight,you KNOW beyond the shadow of a doubt, that the Texas region ALWAYS get a LENIENT judge. Thats why I scored 507 Joe Joiner scored 506 and Alex scored 720.
On the other hand when a 122 gets in the finals the judge is tougher. It could`nt have been a front moving in or a late hawk migration affecting everyones kit in a certain region.
Nope it`s the judge.
Whenever you see a big score do you always assume it is a lenient judge or does the fact someone might have superior management skills or hit it just right occur to you?
Nope it`s the judge.
When you see Joe Bob Stuka again Naylor tell him his kit really doesn`t deserve the points he gets. It`s the judge.
I am not saying that all judges perform the same. That would be ludicrous. What I would like to point out is that in the scheme of things the best birds usually get the best score. Glossing it over to make yourself feel better isn`t going to make your team better. Only hard work and perseverence will do that. If you know what the judge expects then it is on you to bring the team up to the judges standards and improve your score.
Have you picked a date yet Naylor?
V99
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knaylor
210 posts
May 25, 2006
9:30 PM
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Kenny, that is funny that you brought up Joe Bob. This has been going on and on on other lists. Joe Bob himself said that HIS kit was about a 400 point kit that day. Those where his words not mine. Its really that simple. Kevin
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J_Star
443 posts
May 26, 2006
7:53 AM
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But I always heard that Joe Bob plays down his birds performace. If they were not performing to their best in a particular day, then they are not performing at all. It is not what Joe Bob says, rather what the spectators said about his birds performace. That is my take...
Kenny, I also beleive that the loose judges term is used extensively without merits. With all due respect, seems that all the outstanding birds and judges are only in CA and not anywhere else. It is also true that if you have allot of trees around your property it works aginst you flying your birds in comps or for pleasure.
Jay
Last Edited by J_Star on May 26, 2006 10:27 AM
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motherlodelofts
790 posts
May 26, 2006
9:36 AM
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lets get something straight , these 1000 plus scores are a joke and will make Pensoms words of competition being detrimental to the breed a reality due to what all is being called scorable.
It aint happening except by judges scoreing every bit of activity a team can do, the good the bad the short and the ugly.
Good judges sort out the bad and count birds that are represenitive of the breed that are banging together.
The world cup finals judge is doing that now and you won't see scores anywhere close to these silly regional scores.
No Jay not all the outstanding kits are in Calf. where did you get that from ?
As for going what spectators say , they are the last ones that I listen to as the vast majority of them don't have a clue, the exception being the few guys that I know that know what a good team is.
One thing most good flyers are, is realistic about the performance of thier kit , and that is why they are capable of putting up a good team.
I might add JoeBob is not a loose judge and he would be one that I would look to for a realistic view of a team whether is be his or someone elses , in fact we spoke a week or so ago.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on May 27, 2006 8:38 PM
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J_Star
445 posts
May 26, 2006
10:19 AM
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Scott, then how can that be corrected where the judges keep score just like the final judge? Is it a matter of training issue or following a standard?
It is not proper to downplay someone's achievements or complete region achievements by throwing loose judge terminology just because. To me, this is just a smoke screen for those participants who don’t score big numbers in some regions to boost their standing and save face. If not so, then let’s have all loose judges for all regions and a tight judge for the finals. Let's make the playing field even for everybody as the WC committee try to do in all other issues. If that is not possible, then ‘loose judging’ terminology should be out of our dictionary period. This is just my opinion.
Jay
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motherlodelofts
791 posts
May 26, 2006
12:27 PM
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Jay experianced flyers know the difference , no need to sweep it under the rug , all it does is give a false impression of the kit and no the best kits don't allways end up on top.
But nor does it mean that the ones on top with loose judges were bad flys , it is just to hard to tell with loose judges.
Loose judges dont look that loose under good teams , it is when they get under over frequent popcorn kits that they show thier true colors as they are just counting birds without sorting out the bad ones , normaly the timing of the breaks mean little or nothing also.
We try to avoid these judges at all costs as the last time we had this type of judge he threw two kits of deep sloopy birds on top , that is what can happen when they score everything.
Around here a 300 point kit is a smoken kit of qaulity birds and such flys are rare, and we fare very well in the major flys.
Scott
PS I added to my last post , you may wat to read it
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on May 26, 2006 12:31 PM
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J_Star
447 posts
May 26, 2006
4:23 PM
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Very well Scott, From reading your last post the impression that I get from it is that in CA the judges are much better than other regions and that is why if a kit scores 300 points means it is smoking while the majority of other regions in this country the judges stink. Please I am not trying stir anything here nor trying to offend anybody. To even the playing fields so that all region would feel equally maybe the selected judges for the other regions should be educated enough to spot quality and the kits be judged as the rest of the kits from CA.
The reason I stated in my earlier post that it appears to be only the good quality birds and judges are from CA is based on me reading all the posts posted here for the last few years. Only the folks from CA who talk about loose judges in the other regions and nobody else from other regions use that term loosely. Maybe my memory is weakening as I age and please let others from other regions outside of CA correct me. Are you following my thought Scott? For this reason, and I am a logical minded man, will give me the impression that either CA is the roller capital of the world or they just put others down so they look good. I hope I am not offending anybody by this statement, and if I have, please accept my apology.
Let me ask you to define quality for me. You will say, Jay, you will know of quality fly and breaks when you see one and you will never forget it. I agree with you. Don't you think that the spectators under Joe Bob’s kit see that quality and they knew the difference? So once the spectators see quality of the kit they will never forget it, no matter how experienced they are, under a quality performance will be able to tell you how excellent the kit was. So and for that reason, if Joe Bob down plays his kit performance then ask the people who watched it. That is my reasoning, I could be wrong and it is fair enough to draw a conclusion from it knowing that Joe Bob won the WC last year. I am sure he did not win it for his looks or for him knowing the judge well.
For people to tell others that their score was higher than theirs due to loose judging is offending Scott and triggers an undesirable response for a defense. The same thing when someone tell somebody, here you again and that shows that you don't know anything is also offending and the same will trigger an undesirable response for a defense. The same is true when somebody states at the beginning of their post that everything said in earlier posts is bullshit will also trigger a nasty response because it is offending. Do you agree with me? So, my point is those words posted which did not mean to provoke anybody but perceived as insulting and in turn causes a rumble amongst friends.
Loose judges or tight judges are a reason why confrontations happen among regions and it could be avoided to make this sport better in my opinion. It is all for fun, no doubt, because there is no money exchanged here for the winner. If money was involved, people might end up killing each other. What do you think buddy?
Jay
Last Edited by J_Star on May 26, 2006 4:23 PM
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motherlodelofts
792 posts
May 26, 2006
5:06 PM
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Jay what the hell does Calif have to do with anything ?????
Calif is a big state that consists of 7 different regions that are thier own enitys , when I say "here" I am only refering to the region and area that I fly in.
It is the sport on the whole that I base my opinion on and Calif. has nothing to do with it. Some areas in the US "do" search out these type of judges while some avoid them.
In fact the UK and South Africa is doing a fly between them this year to insure no loose judging and the possibility of loosing the integrity of the fly due to in a large part because of a couple of goofy loose judges from the US coming through there over the years.
Jay it is not really a good idea to use particular flys as an example , judges do the best job that they know how. I'm sure of that, and once a judge is asked in to judge that is the end of the story , good or bad , enough has been said on this.
Scott
PS scores mean nothing, it is who you go up against and where you sit in comparison , those of of that fly these major flys know who's who for the most part and what kind of judging to expect, with certain judges you can count on silly score's, that is just the way it is.
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on May 26, 2006 6:34 PM
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knaylor
211 posts
May 26, 2006
5:29 PM
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Jay, you cant be serious???? There is a big difference between loose judging and realistic judging. This has nothing to do with certain kits, or fliers. It is a fact that if two people judge two different kits then you have two different scores. That is why they only use one judge in the finals. It is a fact(even here in california) that some regions use loose judges because they like high scores. There is also a BIG BIG difference in being a spectator and actually judging a kit. Look a the w/c finals score right now. What is the high score?? I also bet that he earned every point. Is Heine a tough judge ?? NO He scores what should be scored. Kevin
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Alohazona
154 posts
May 26, 2006
7:56 PM
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I have to agree with Kevin,on this judging thing,I wouldn't call them loose or tight,just high scoring or low scoring,thats the tem I would rather.In the long run the high scoring type of judging will disillusion new or up and comming fanciers and create a mistrusting air about the hobby being biased one way or another.The true spin of the roller pigeon is what quality fliers and judges are after.I feel as a new and up in comming flier,that maintaining the standard is of the utmost importance and that doesn't mean being hardcore to the point that no satisfaction can be derived from flying roller pigeons.There are too many invariables for perfection in this hobby.More likely than not the pigeons will decide when they will let loose and do what they were bred to do and the events leading up to that is all a fancier can do for a hopeful premium result.When points are given they should be earned points not some crapshoot fly score.....Aloha,Todd
ps Sorry for getting off the point of this original thread this on ly my opinion...Mahalo
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