Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
663 posts
Jun 23, 2006
9:25 AM
|
My "hard and fast rule is that there are no hard and fast rules". To each who has a question about it, try it with your own birds and see what happens.
No one will hold it against you...check that, there is always someone who will in whatever you do or say...
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
|
J_Star
483 posts
Jun 23, 2006
12:40 PM
|
Sorry, I did not mean to get this topic off track with what I posted. But I said it won't advance your program and never said it won't work. It will limit the results to what you already have whether hit or miss. From this mating you will get two similer to the parents (brother/sister), one to the grandmother and one to the grandfather. Similer does not mean identical in performance but never better. Give it a try and keep us posted on the outcome. Thanks.
Jay
|
Mongrel Lofts
167 posts
Jun 23, 2006
9:03 PM
|
From this mating you will get two similer to the parents (brother/sister), one to the grandmother and one to the grandfather. Similer does not mean identical in performance but never better. Give it a try and keep us posted on the outcome. Thanks.
Jay
Let me ask you a question Jay. If you had a cock and hen full B/S that rolled 40', hard ball fast, kited perfect, rolled in the breaks frequently.. If you could not improve on these birds but set their qualities in your stock and get a high percentage just like them, Would you be interested in this pairing? If so, you begin to understand why inbreeding is used to set a family or strain of rollers.. If you are only interested in hybrid vigor hoping for a massive gene pool of Russian roulette breeding for a great roller.. Right on.. If I found a great bird from this type of complete chance breeding.. I would inbreed it and see if it had what it takes to be the anchor of a family.. Competitions can be won by collecting and using different men's hard work to form families and crossing those years of set work for some hybrid vigor bang!!!
What is family Jay? How do you set traits in a stud? How many marbles does one have to collect up to hit the hybrid vigor jackpot consistently? When do you stop collecting and how in the heck do you ever claim to have a family or strain? Wide and many are the ways to breed roller pigeons. But narrow is the path and straight is the way when you begin to breed a family with a gene pool that is selected and purged towards consistent percentage production... Just my opinion.. Mongrel Lofts
|
GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
82 posts
Jun 23, 2006
10:10 PM
|
I had two familys that were brother / sister matings , one was a flop (just roll downs) the other was a success, just prolonged the quality gene's, that is still going strong , like the energizer rabbit,today
you will just have to try it out and see what happens .. Good Luck.
R-LUNA
|
J_Star
485 posts
Jun 26, 2006
5:08 AM
|
Kenny,
The key is 'well established' family. Once you have the goods in the family that revolves around a foundation birds then you don't worry about mating what to what since they all have the same gene pool. Vigor should be a sixth trait and flying the right hight should be a seventh trait. So breeding for vigor to have active bird is not an answer. The best way is for the breeder to try the mating for a seaon and determine what the outcome. Was it worth it or not!! If it was up to me, I will put them back on their parents for now.
Jay
|
Velo99
515 posts
Jun 26, 2006
2:33 PM
|
Thoeretical question.
I have three pairs of breeders I have bred/fostered from for two years.I like the results. Two pairs are related and the other is very similar in type. If I ran an open loft with this three pair,breaking up the pairs every year,and rotating one best son and one best daughter in each year, would this eliminate the need for a vigor "cross"?
I surely would like to have an open loft of related birds. The eventual decline of the gene pool is the major worry for me. In addition I have a stable of good blood to insert as needed. I think this could be detrimental to the overall project without a season of "side breeding" to check out the results of adding the new blood to the open loft family.If successful I would have several 1/2 birds to introduce into the gene pool over a couple of years. This is why I would only want to use three maybe four pairs in the open loft and 6-7 pairs of fosters.If it all crashes I would have plenty of alternatives to turn to.
Any opionions or experiences?
v99
----------
If they don`t kit,they don`t perform.
It`s a comp thing,understand?
|
fhtfire
503 posts
Jun 26, 2006
5:34 PM
|
Velo,
I would think that if you rotated half related birds through your loft ..rotating years...As for starting your own family it takes a pretty long time to get to the point where you need an outcross. Of course this would be different from loft to loft and what family you have. If you have a family that has been pretty tight for 20years and then you take it on..you may need an outcross. Performance will dictate when you need an outcross...as well as mutations..LOL...if the have two heads or three wings...then you may need to add an outcross. As for an open loft with like birds...I believe it was Richard A...I think...that said that he runs an open loft and it really does not matter if every now and then one of his good producing tight stock birds mounted another good producing tight family stock bird. It is just your choice. I myself run an open loft right now because I have birds of like performance and like blood. Except my Ruby Rollers..but I am crossing with my Morts..this year to see what happens. Anyway...I do and can lock up pairs to make sure that the offspring is theirs..I usually do that with new young pairs or new matings...but my foundation pairs are all related...and I too do not care if I get an oops. To be honest..when you do not have that many pairs and you have been breeding with them for awhile...You kind of know what they produce...or should I say what color they pop out..and if you get a pair that pops out a Black with a white tail and for the last three years every bird has been a Blue Chec or RR ....and there is a cock in your loft with a white tail that is dominant...then you can kind of figure it out. So I kind of do both...new pairs I keep locked up until they lay and then let them out. I do the open loft...becuase I like to watch them interact, My wife would make me get rid of them if she had to feed individual pairs..I work 48hrs straight......My bird are mostly related..I do not think that a cock mounts another hen as often as everyone thinks..at least not in my loft..my cocks are not real cocky....But I do lock down new pairs until they lay. Kenny...it is to each his own...if you have like birds in the loft then by all means try it...try it for a couple of years and if you feel that your performance is going down because of Cocks jumping hens...then go back to individual pairs...Or pay attention to the offspriing that a pair produces...Like that Lavin cock and hen that you got from me...they are either Black, Dun W/F, Black W/F or they look like the hen....I have bred about 20 rounds from that pair and that is the only thing that I got...if a grizzle or a RR or Blue Bar popped out..then I would raise an eyebrow...just try it and see...if they are mostly related then give it a try. I myself like to run an open loft...My performance has not changed...and I am happy with it. Just keep track of what pairs you really liked so if it does not work for you;;;;you can put your old pairs back together...I have done both and I myself like both ways..but open loft is just easier on me and ESPECIALLY MY WIFE when I am on duty at the station. But...mounting my not happen as much in my loft...because my foundation pairs have been together for 2 years and they click..so I do not split them..so maybe there bond with each other is real strong..due to being mates for so long.
rock and ROLL
paul
|