Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
882 posts
Dec 04, 2006
3:01 PM
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What if it was known that Pensom crossed breeds with the Birmingham Rollers? Would he be considered a Mongrel Breeder and his birds that he raised be of questionable heritage?
Where would that leave the Birmingham Roller in todays roller world? David
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Mongrel Lofts
244 posts
Dec 04, 2006
3:20 PM
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David,
I will answer a dumb question with another dumb question.. What if Pensom didn't cross breeds, would that make all the guys breeding rollers with ice pigeon crossed in for a color factor a Mongrel breeder.. Much more accurate question don't you think?? KGB
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
883 posts
Dec 04, 2006
4:58 PM
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Kenny.It was not a dumb question.But I see you couldn't answer it even if it was.
I guess you already knew he did but if you admitted it that would make your rollers Mongrels too.LOL David
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Velo99
692 posts
Dec 04, 2006
5:57 PM
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If I remember correctly,he culled them.
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If they don`t kit,they don`t score.
Color don`t roll and peds don`t fly.
It`s a comp thing,understand?
V99
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
885 posts
Dec 04, 2006
5:59 PM
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V99. What did who cull? David
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Mongrel Lofts
246 posts
Dec 04, 2006
6:37 PM
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David,
So let me see if I understand you.. You are saying Pensom crossed Swallows, Ice pigeons and other breeds into his Birmingham rollers for color? Funny, you NPRA guys will try and drag anyone and anything down to justify cross breeding for color, factors and patterns..
I can only guess that you are talking about the competition comp badges? If there is a thread of truth to any of this David,, he culled the badges.. SO one would have to think he culled the Mongrels also.. Your kind values the Cross as pure bred.. Can you find any where Pensom passed the Mongrels off as Birmingham rollers? Of course not. No comparison David. Like always, smoke screen to try and muddy the truth and deceive the newbie into thinking cross breeding is the way everyone does it and has done it.. No one knows if they have pure Birmingham rollers,, they are all crossed up pigeons right David? Pensom also bred Modena's.. I wonder if he ever crossed them on his rollers for color? Poppy cock.. KGB
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
886 posts
Dec 04, 2006
7:11 PM
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KGB.In 1945 Pensom wrote an article stating that he crossed his Birmingham Rollers with Oriental Rollers to try and improve the roll.He also stated that after 3 generations he had them back to the type of the Birmingham Roller but the performance of the Birmingham Roller was not improved.Documented proof.Not just talk or blowing smoke screens.Just the honest truth.And you wonder where the Almond and some of the other colors came from.Everyone knows these colors were already in the Oriental Roller.
And it is documented that Pensom was put out of the Pensom Roller Club for having other breeds at his Lofts when it was a strict rule not to have them.
So if Pensom admitted to doing this how can anyone say for certain that what they have are Pure since Pensom? David
P.S. And thats not all of the Facts.
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Mongrel Lofts
248 posts
Dec 05, 2006
1:36 AM
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David,
I think you answered your own question.. Pensom said he had the Birmingham roller type back, but it didn't improve the Birmingham,, He didn't call the Mongrels Birmingham rollers..
In 1972 or so I was a young man, I mated a red parlor roller on blac english trumpeter.. I made my own family of muffed roof tumblers.. I guess there is no such thing as Parlor rollers or English trumpeters since I did my little experiment?
It is all a smoke screen David to try and justify polluting the Birmingham roller breed. Plain and simple as the nose on your face.. KGB
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
887 posts
Dec 05, 2006
3:57 AM
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Kenny.I already know the answer.If you would do the research on the Birmingham Roller like I have(maybe you have)then it would be as plain as the nose on your face.I have come to a couple of conclusions.One is that you really don't know the truth or two you just wouldn't except it no matter what facts were presented to you.
But I would like to hear your opinion on a couple of things.LOL.
Why would Pensom say that a Birmingham Roller could have more than 12 feathers and he would highly value it if it had all the other qualitys?
Where did the Gravel(Pearl)eye come from?
Where did the Bronzes and Browns come from that he liked so well?
Where did the Birmingham Roller with the wings carried below the tail come from?
Forget what all happened before Pensom.He is the one that is credited with introducing the Birmingham Roller to the U.S.and is the type of rollers you and others are claiming to be continueing to keep Pure.
Why don't you have any Booted Rollers in your loft when Pensom said at one time all Birmingham Rollers were Booted?
Who and When was it alright to decide to make these changes and still call them Birmingham Rollers?
I think these are some of the answers Tony is trying to compile.At what point did the Birmingham Roller come into existence and at what point is any change in them stop them from being called a Birmingham Roller?
You said in another post that if something odd popped up in your loft you would kill it and any roller related to it.What gives you that right and still continue to call your rollers Birmingham Rollers.You have just changed what you think should be in your rollers as far as color or pattern never giving that bird a chance to see if it was one that would be a Champion Roller.
Pensom also stated that "There is no set color or pattern in the Birmingham Roller".
Thats all for now.Gotta go Hunting.David
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nicksiders
887 posts
Dec 05, 2006
6:39 AM
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Way too many questions for a dumbass like me. I don't know where I would begin that would make since. Are you saying Ol' Bill was a mongrel breeder? Damn it, David you and I are too old for this(LOL).
Nick
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Snicker Rollers
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
889 posts
Dec 05, 2006
8:22 AM
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Nick.Just having fun with Kenny and filling in time to keep from getting bored.LOL.And just trying to prove to him that just because someone trys some off the wall breeding projects don't mean that everything they do is Mongrel Breeding.He even said he crossed breeds when he was younger.And he created what he wanted at the time.
I can only fly a couple kits a day then the wind gets to strong and it feels like it is about 40 below zero at times so I have more time to spend on the computer.Wait untill late Jan. LOL.David
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W@yne
44 posts
Dec 05, 2006
9:50 AM
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William Pensom created the birmingham roller recognised standard as far as i am concerned in todays pigeons. Correct birds was crossed many years ago to produce the birmingham roller but only performance birds was added to get the quality of roll in the pigeon. Not once did Bill Pensom say he added color to make the birds look pretty.Adding modena for color and calling them Birmingham Rollers tut tut tut.You guys will have Bill Pensom turning in his grave.THATS JUST UNDOING ALL THE HARD WORK THAT HAS BEEN PUT INTO THIS BREED OF PIGEON my opinion
regards
W@yne uk
Last Edited by on Dec 05, 2006 10:46 AM
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Shaun
383 posts
Dec 05, 2006
10:46 AM
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David, you old devil, I read with interest what you wrote there. So, I thought I'd search the internet - after all, the biggest library in the world - just to see if I could find something to corroborate what you've written. I couldn't find anything about Pensom's writings to back up your stance; however, that doesn't mean it's not out there - it just means I couldn't find it at lunchtime!
However, what I found easily was plenty of history about the earlier stages of the Birmingham Roller. I think we all agree that over a considerable time, birds from different countries were crossed with a view to improving the roller. Whilst some experiments failed, others successfully blended the relative merits of different bird types. This happened over a very long time - centuries.
Now, personally, I'm not that interested in bygone history from that long ago, but the articles I touched on about the formation of the BR were all emphatic about one particular thing - everything was about trying to improve performance. I didn't read a solitary thing about experiments which were related to colour. So, for centuries it seems that man would happily take whatever colours came his way, simply because his ultimate goal was performance.
So, given that Pensom was as obsessed about performance in the same way we are over half a century later, why on earth would he have risked a lifetime's work and his enviable reputation by dabbling in the way you suggest? A side project, perhaps, but surely no more.
What I did read, which I've not come across before, is that at one point Pensom's stock was turning seldom, so he returned to England for an infusion of Birmingham Roller blood. So, I'm thinking, would that same Pensom, who had by now settled in America, return to England (difficult in those days) so as to give his own roller stock a boost, then start buggering about with colour breeding? It just doesn't make sense.
Shaun
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
891 posts
Dec 05, 2006
11:39 AM
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Shaun ole buddy.You won't find that stuff on the innernet anymore.Most of the sites that had any of his writings were blocked from public several years ago.If it wasn't I sure havn't been able to find stuff about him anymore.
I have a large collection of his writings both from when he wrote in England as well as after he came to the U.S.
If I ever say that Bill Pensom said something you can be sure I have it in print to back it up.
The point I was trying to make was that just because he did it dosn't mean that everything he done was Mongrel breedings.His main thing that he tried to get thru people's head was that it was the performance that made the Birmingham Roller.It had nothing to do with color or pattern.So many times in his writings he expressed these same words.
There is 2 roller men that I hold very high regards for.One is Bill Pensom and another is James Turner.And I have been fortunate to have gotten birds from each of them.
Some think I try to tear down Pensom but what I am really doing is upholding what he done and think that everyone needs to know more of the things he done with rollers.It may have been 50 years ago but he laid the foundation for the roller in the U.S. David
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nicksiders
890 posts
Dec 05, 2006
11:45 AM
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Now you got the english dudes jumping on ya, David(LOL)
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Snicker Rollers
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motherlodelofts
1030 posts
Dec 05, 2006
4:01 PM
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Dave you are confusing the colors and patterns from those in the breed with those crossed in from other breeds from guys like James Turner.
Same with this quote below , this evolves around colors "within" the breed let alone brought in from other breeds.
"For any fancier to bred birds of color and marking to meet his tastes he would naturally have to breed far more than he could successfully manage. It is possible to breed any color and marking but the ratio of good birds produced would be extremely small. This is the difference between a successful strain for ideal spinning and the pursuit of colorful pigeons." (this from a guy that bred alot of birds)
Pretty basic stuff if you know anything about the breed, sheez it's hard enough breeding truely good one's as it is.
Again, that is why serious flyers don't color breed ,there are way to many other factors to look at trying to get it right, pretty no brainer except by novices.
Scott
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Mongrel Lofts
249 posts
Dec 05, 2006
7:40 PM
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Wayne/Shaun,
I feel I need to apologize for our American color breeders. They have what we call here in the states, Sea Gull syndrome. They fly in and crap all over the breed Birmingham roller, disrespecting the breed, its history and the very integrity of those who have dedicated their lives to the breed.. Then they fly back to their flocks and fill up for another assault.. Only a few guys wrote anything about rollers back in the old days and most of them were not the Birmingham roller creators or even flyers.. Just because you read a statement from an old timer, does not make that the truth of the breed.. Just like what we write here are our opinions.. Read what is written on these pages a hundred years from now, and some bloke would be pretty confused about what is a Birmingham roller. Don't you think?
Funny we don't have Ollie Harris talking about Mongrel crossing, or Bill Ricahards speaking of crossing ice pigeon on his rollers to make prettier colored rollers. I can't recall Bill Barret ever speaking of crossing his Birmingham's on a swallow to make white bars with muffs to improve his Birmingham's.. How about the late Bob Brown, did he cross in any show breeds for color to improve his Birmingham rollers? You see, there are guys who Breed Birmingham rollers and there are cross breeders for color and creation of odd things. The problem is, the cross breeder wants to say his crosses are the same as the Birmingham roller. I will never figure that out.. Sorry guys that we dishonor the Birmingham roller breed over here,, Its this new color breeder in America that would cross a pig on a Birmingham roller just to give them curly peckers. Then call them the curly peckers Birmingham's, just like the ones imported from England 60 years ago!! LOL Man, You would have to be an American color breeder to understand.. KGB
Last Edited by on Dec 05, 2006 8:00 PM
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Pali View Lofts
22 posts
Dec 06, 2006
12:17 AM
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KGB,
The Sea Gull syndrome.......I have to remember that!
GOOD ONE!
BIG smile!
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
893 posts
Dec 06, 2006
5:01 AM
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KGB.You forgot to mention Ernie Stratford of merry ole England who crossed Parlor Tumblers with his Birmingham Rollers for 10 YEARS before he raised a champion.Wow.Why would anyone want to do this for 10 years is beyond me.And to top everything else off he even had the title of the "leading exporter of the century" all around the world.
You are right there was not many that penned what they did but some did.Pensom himself wrote once in an article he wrote in England that he didn't write about some things for fear of repurcussions from some of their breeders.
Kenny.I would suggest that you and your few followers should soon get a Pure Birmingham Roller Club started and retrieve the Pure Birmingham Roller from all us Color Breeders before we totally destroy them.
They are becoming more popular every year so you are losing time. But of course you can always go back to England and start importing birds from there when the need arises.I am sure that you will never find any color birds over there.(joke) David
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motherlodelofts
1037 posts
Dec 06, 2006
7:48 AM
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Dave, many of of has played crossing Parlors onto Rollers, mostly as kids , of course we didn't know any better and the birds we had were garbage compared to today and birds coming all the way down were the "good" ones , now we know how important mental charactor is.
As for the color birds becoming more and more popular , WHERE ? with who ? all I see is you guys from the darkside selling alot of birds to new guys , there are alot of flyers here around me , I've been across the country , up and down New England , up and down the West Coast, BC Canada, and only very very few allow those type of birds in their lofts, and those that do are far from the serious flyers with one exception and that is John Jones out of San Diego.
Scott
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Alohazona
212 posts
Dec 06, 2006
9:15 AM
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I think I read were it was J.L.Smith that did the crossing of Orientals with some of the roller strains that were here prior to Pensom.I think this was the main thrust for Smith to contact Pensom,along with reading some of Pensoms early writings....Aloha,Todd
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
894 posts
Dec 06, 2006
10:20 AM
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Scott. Well since you have traveled all over the U.S. and the only color breeders were us few that has started our own club why are we such a threat to the Birmingham Roller.I think I asked you what percentage of color breeders were out there compared to the true blue breeders and you answered that my question was a low blow.
So what are you saying: That there is less than a hundred color breeders compared to thousands of pure breeders?
Are you saying that us few fellows that breeds some color that you don't agree with are saturating the whole World of Birminghams?
Man you are getting me all confused now.LOL. David
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motherlodelofts
1040 posts
Dec 06, 2006
2:24 PM
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Low blow ? you kind of lost me Dave , I said "low" (percentage wise) but like I said I dealings are mainly with mainstream flyers.
As for how many backyard guys are breeding that stuff , not sure , thats like asking how many illegal aliens are there.
Most of those guys are just happy playing with pigeons, which is fine.
Scott
Last Edited by on Dec 06, 2006 2:27 PM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
899 posts
Dec 06, 2006
3:27 PM
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Scott.I misunderstood what you said.Sorry about that.
Got to get back to KGB.Kenny you said:If the guy you got your birds from, is known to have worked on crossed up color projects you don't have Birmingham rollers.
If this be true how can anyone say they have Birmingham Rollers since Pensom crossed Orientals with his Birmingham Rollers.Why was he trying to improve the roll in the Birmingham Roller when he himself said that it couldn't be perfected upon?Do you think maybe he was after something else.LOL.
You also mentioned that Brown wasn't a Birmingham Color.But yet He(Pensom) said it was.
I agree there is some factors like Pencil and Toy Stencil that has been crossed from somewhere.But I have heard that the Pencil Rollers are a sight to see rolling.Ask Gregg Sales.LOL.
By the way I am working with a couple of Pencil now so by the end of next year I should be able to tell you if they roll right or not."Remember Color is a Plus But Roll is a Must." David
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George R.
893 posts
Jul 16, 2008
7:56 PM
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what about this...
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nicksiders
2957 posts
Jul 16, 2008
8:14 PM
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Origanal question; What if Bill Pensom cross bred Birmingham Rollers? The answer would be he was at least a mongrel breeder. Now, if he crossed for a color, he would be a color breeder which imparts that he would be a mongrel breeder.
Not a hard question.
Maybe I ought to change the wording to "cross breeder". Nobody likes the word "mongrel".
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
Last Edited by on Jul 16, 2008 8:21 PM
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Ty Coleman
469 posts
Jul 16, 2008
8:39 PM
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Hey Nick Much Repect!
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Scott
922 posts
Jul 16, 2008
8:43 PM
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What about calling them "quinbies" ?
God forbid that we call the crossbred color birds mongrels LOL LOL
Oh wait a minute, now the shift is to try and make those that know no better that the breed already had these show breed colors in them LOL LOL better burn evidence er I mean the genetic tape LOL
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jul 16, 2008 8:47 PM
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Ty Coleman
470 posts
Jul 16, 2008
8:54 PM
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Scott, i think your deaf or just plain cant read. We have been over this before.Project never left his loft and the project was put to a end!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Once again ill post this i talked to the man myself and i have been in his loft. His word or my word i guess it doesnt matter to you.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
Last Edited by on Jul 16, 2008 8:54 PM
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Scott
923 posts
Jul 16, 2008
9:01 PM
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Yea right Ty, where do you think barless,penil,Milkey and all of that comes from ? they trade these color genes around like baseball cards, and Turner was by far not the only one mongrelizing the breed , in fact it is still being done, Ty you are new and naive.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jul 16, 2008 9:01 PM
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nicksiders
2960 posts
Jul 16, 2008
9:04 PM
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Scott,
I am ordering the CD that Roberts and Turner did with thier.....ah crossbreeding project. I am going to see how you can crossbreed the Birmingham Roller then turn it back into a Birmingham Roller after a few generations. Two disc for $37.50. If you want to study 'em I will send them to ya.(LOL)
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
Last Edited by on Jul 16, 2008 9:12 PM
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nicksiders
2961 posts
Jul 16, 2008
9:11 PM
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Well, somebody let 'em out of thier lofts(sounds like that tune I got sick and tired of (Who Let The Dogs Out?) There are other tunes I am sick and tired of, too. At the convention I saw white bars; laces; pencil; opals and some other stuff. Not everybody kept thier crossbreeds in thier lofts.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
Last Edited by on Jul 16, 2008 9:15 PM
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Bill C
105 posts
Jul 16, 2008
9:13 PM
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David, based on your first comment on Pensom cross breeding. You should with all due respect quote a man based on his lifes history. Pensom said quite clearly that he had respect for guys who bred for color ( show rollers ) but that it was impossible to breed for both in the performance of the birmingham roller. In other words if you breed for color birds you will lose the the birmingham roller and end up with show rollers that do not perform to the standard. What is your problem? The very thing you accuse KGB of is your own guilt denied. You don't seem to want to except you cannot cross colors in and still have a quality birmingham roller. Just call them show rollers and then you might have respect for what they are. I think you underestimeate most of the roller guys in the world to think you can disguise your show roller oppinions as performance rollers. Good day! Bill C
Last Edited by on Jul 16, 2008 9:17 PM
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Scott
924 posts
Jul 16, 2008
9:14 PM
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Actualy Nick I all ready have it on VHS , my money says that it has now been edited out though as someone here tried denying that it was on there until I made mention that I have a VHS tape of it, that is how they operate.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jul 16, 2008 9:54 PM
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pacos bill
60 posts
Jul 16, 2008
9:28 PM
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I have what many would consider pure pensoms, based on the 514 line, but I bought a blue check badge one of the best rollers I have seen in quite a while and now I find out it is a color breeder off spring but boy does it spin.
I am breeding this bird into my play line, and they are performing great,
I think pensom would not care if an out cross for color was introduced that produced better spin. But as I have previously stated I try to preserve a pure pensom line also.
Pacos Bill
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Scott
925 posts
Jul 16, 2008
9:32 PM
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Bill, we aren't talking about normal Birmingham colors such as the bird you just mentioned, that is the thing, the breed is already loaded with it's own beauty that far out does any mongrel color.
As for "preserving" the old Pensom line, are they loaded with hard quality roll with good depth and decent frequency and produce it in good percentages?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jul 16, 2008 9:56 PM
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Ty Coleman
471 posts
Jul 17, 2008
5:05 AM
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The colors bred in the Turner family came from rollers, he did not cross in ice pigeons or modenas like you want to imply he did, he tried it and quit with it and it did not leave his loft walking or flying or in a box to some one ! Most of the the birds he bred came from your neck of the woods Scott.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Scott
927 posts
Jul 17, 2008
6:08 AM
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Okie Dokie buddy , I'm sure he did get some crossbred color genes from out here, like I said they traded them around like base ball cards,again where do you think where do you think barless,penil,Milkey,opal and all of that comes from ? and I doubt very seriously that reduced was some mutant either,color breeders are color breeders.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jul 17, 2008 6:40 AM
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Ballrollers
1346 posts
Jul 17, 2008
7:22 AM
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Ty,
Matter of fact, Pensom, DID cross other breeds with Birmingham Rollers. I quoted Pensom on another RPDC thread when he crossed rollers into the Oriental Roller and on another occasion with the Dutch Tumbler, and he described his results. But these purist guys are in denial of any facts that don't fit there agenda......that's how they operate! LOL!
Cliff
PS Tony Robert's daughter took over the production of the Genetics DVDs from VHS. She doesn't know beans about this issue, has no stake in it, and has reproduced it exactly as it existed on the VHS. Tony Chevarria was going to make the DVDs available here. Any luck with that Tony?
Last Edited by on Jul 17, 2008 7:27 AM
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Ballrollers
1347 posts
Jul 17, 2008
7:28 AM
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If anyone wants to really understand the facts that may be relevant to this topic.... Please click on "READING ROOM" and check out the article I wrote: JAMES TURNER, The Man Who Put Color Into Spin. After reading that, you may understand how excellent performing roller pigeons may be found in many different colors. Read, understand, question and form your own opinions on these interesting topics of discussion. Remember, there are two sides to every coin, some men prefer one family over another, some men prefer certain colors over another but all TRUE BIRMINGHAM ROLLERS prove their worth in the air.
Cliff
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Scott
928 posts
Jul 17, 2008
7:42 AM
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Cliff , are there any families of color Rollers ? or just color roller crossed into other families ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Customkev
23 posts
Jul 17, 2008
9:23 AM
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For years I have seen where this topic has been debated and I have stayed away from it becdause I felt it has nothing to do with me or my birds. For lack of better judgment on my behave I'm going to put my 2 cents in here for what it's worth. In doing so I'm hopeing to be part of a solution and not part of the problem. I see where the name "True Birmingham Roller" is used in discribing the color careing birds. I think that this is done to not belittle the colored birds and to keep them on the same level (in the eyes of other fanciers) as the birds that have not had the color gene added to them. I might be wrong but I think something as little as a name for these color careing birds may be the solution to this argument. This is my thoughts of a name "Color Inhanced Birmingham Roller" . This in my mind states what they are, and does not belittle them at the same time. It says that they have had color added and they are Birmingham rollers with an added color gene. IE: Muffed Tumbler,Crested Helmet. Keep in mind I'm not trying to stir crap up but trying to resolve tension in the hobby. There may be a better name that fits or maybe not... My thoughts any way... Kev
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Ballrollers
1349 posts
Jul 17, 2008
9:23 AM
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Scott,
As we have learned on this list, the birds are yours once you obtain them and begin making selections for breeding. After three generations the family can now bear your name, for you chose the pairings. Many many families of TRUE BIRMINGHAM ROLLERS contain rare color factors/patterns. Rare-colored rollers were crossed into many Pensom based rollers..... very successfully, just like some Pensoms crossed with other families. If you are asking is there a family where all birds express clear recognizable rare colors? I have not seen one, that is not the nature of genetic diversity. The dominant factors will express themselves where possible in proportion to the colors and factors found with in the breeder's gene pool. Once the color modifiers are present within the gene structure of the breeders, the entire family becomes genetically coded and the family can produce those colors in subsequent generations if the dominant and recessive genes line up right. Same goes for the genes that control spin, type and character. It all depends what colors/factors are contained in the stock you started with and where the spin leads you. You could find more rare colors or less. That option remains solely under the control of the breeder. There are many common factors contained in roller families. Does your family contain grizzle, under grizzle, boots, muffs, recessive red, dilute, almond, etc.? All these color modifiers are commonly found with in the roller gene pool because they were present in the birds that were used to develope the Birmingham Roller and some that were crossed in later. Are your birds any less "anything" because you did not cultivate all the factors available? Of course not. It has to do with what colors and factors that were contained in the breeding stock you chose based on performance, just like mine. I have Indigo, Dom opal and Reduced among the other more common genes found in my breeding stock. These colors are not crossed in to my family.... they ARE my family, from the Turner strain of Birmingham rollers.
Thanks for asking,
Cliff
Last Edited by on Jul 17, 2008 10:03 AM
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Scott
929 posts
Jul 17, 2008
10:07 AM
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So Cliff , now we have renamed color birds "TRUE BIRMINGHAM ROLLERS" LOL LOL okie dokie buddy.
Kinda reminds me when they changed the name of the Welfare Dept. to human resources because it sounded a little better,in fact I want a name chance also, I'm thinkin "Dashing Fabio" yea that sounds better than just plan ol Scott LOL
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Ballrollers
1350 posts
Jul 17, 2008
10:16 AM
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Scott,
The "True Birmingham Roller" is a title that rollers earn based on their performance, according to Pensom's definition. I think the term "True Birmingham Roller" is found in the one of Pensom's books and he used it to distinguish a common tumbler from a good performing roller. I don't recall if Pensom even addressed the color of the bird or not. When I use the term "TRUE BIRMINGHAM ROLLER," I am describing any roller that performs to standard. I use it in much the same way as mentioned in "THE BIRMINGHAM ROLLER PIGEON" by WHP and others. If you want to use it in that manor...more power to you "Fabio". Now, I got a question for you. Do you care more about the color of your birds or the performance in your birds? Real simple, color or performance? Straight up no BS! It's really difficult to tell based on the things you post on these roller lists. If you answered Performance, then you and I are in full agreement. The rest doesn't really matter.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Jul 17, 2008 10:29 AM
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Ballrollers
1351 posts
Jul 17, 2008
10:26 AM
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Kev,
Not a bad idea...I, too submitted some names to Tony, but he hasn't done anything with it yet. As long as the Birmingham Roller fancy is performance based ... why mention color-added /enhanced/color unknown? What would we call the orange ones or the green ones? Paint um up any color you want um, you've seen um? The phrase "TRUE BIRMINGHAM ROLLER" describes a roller that can perform to standard. That notion comes from the Penson book. I tend to agree with it. Others think it should refer to a roller with a specific heritage that can be traced back to England without anything said about performance. There is no mention of colors/factors in any fly rule anywhere. Who cares, as long as the bird perform to standard? If we see a color that is a rare factor, we all know, or we think we know, that a cross was made somewhere down the line. Once again, if the bird performs to standard, it is allowed to fly, in any fly I know of. We now have "SHOW ROLLERS." How about "Performance Rollers" for the rest of us? I will bet most of these "Birmingham Rollers" haven't been near England in a while. I don't think there is too much of an argument when it comes to performance. These discussions tend to be more for entertainment. Without these color debates, we might even discuss how to raise better performing rollers, feeding for performance, better understanding the fly rules, any number of interesting topics, then where would we be?! LOL! Then we get down to exactly how many men really give a hoot about this subject. I don't count too many men that care one way or the other. A few really appear to be upset or emoptionally invested in the issue, based on the number of times they constantly bring the subject up..... but most legitimate flyers couldn't care less what color they are...as long as they perform.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Jul 17, 2008 10:27 AM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2687 posts
Jul 17, 2008
10:44 AM
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Hey Cliff, budding its head again, perhaps it is time now...I will be in touch.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
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Scott
930 posts
Jul 17, 2008
12:23 PM
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Cliff, if it was performance based we wouldn't be debating this now would we ? Nor would there even be a such thing as a so called "rare" color bird or the kcrossing of other breeds
And we would be seeing kits and families of all color birds,which we don't see do we,of coarse we don't as they can't stand on their own.
Now why is this worth debating ? because the two of the worst things new guys can do starting out is abtain birds from either color breeders or pedigree breeders,they are both the same animal whose hobby is the pedigree or the color.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Opinionated Blowhard
107 posts
Jul 17, 2008
1:00 PM
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"True Birmingham Roller" is a term describing a type of performance, not a term describing the breed. Even ugly mongrels can be "True Birmingham Rollers" as performers, though not for purity of breed. Pensom crossed Orientals or Dutch Tumblers as an experiment to see how the performance changed, then disposed of the mongrels when the experiment was over. This is far different than intentionally crossing for odd colors, then pawning the birds off on the unsuspecting buyer who assumes he's buying a purebred.
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Anthony
4 posts
Jul 17, 2008
1:09 PM
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How do we know that Pensom disposed of these birds?
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