STARFIRE
183 posts
Dec 21, 2006
2:34 PM
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Hey Guys:
I don't want to start a war here.I just want to say these birds are beautiful,and I wish they were in my loft.I love them.I got the picture off another site.
STARFIRE
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nicksiders
999 posts
Dec 21, 2006
2:51 PM
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What do you think, Scott?
Looks like Ice Pigeons to me. I don't think there is any Bill Pensom in these birds
Nick
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Snicker Rollers
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
940 posts
Dec 21, 2006
2:53 PM
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Reduced spread blue(black).
This isn't an Ice pigeon gene Nick. Ice Pigeons express a totally different, non-sex-linked gene for the Ice mutation.
Last Edited by on Dec 21, 2006 2:55 PM
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smokey
54 posts
Dec 21, 2006
4:35 PM
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now ya done it stan they look just like mine. beautiful aint they. smokey
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STARFIRE
186 posts
Dec 21, 2006
4:38 PM
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Hey Smoky:
If you got them like that ,your a lucky guy.
STARFIRE
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smokey
55 posts
Dec 21, 2006
5:06 PM
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got that right. i have a pair of balds as well thanks. smokey
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motherlodelofts
1162 posts
Dec 21, 2006
6:32 PM
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Those are pretty , but I wouldn't allow them on the property.
Scott
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smokey
58 posts
Dec 21, 2006
6:37 PM
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scott they look better than the all white that i had fly better to.
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motherlodelofts
1165 posts
Dec 21, 2006
7:46 PM
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Like I said Smokey, they are pretty, but they are garbage and nothing more , you can paint the normal B/R colors and they are still garbage , no real rollermen that I know would allow them in the loft ,why ?
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JMUrbon
150 posts
Dec 21, 2006
7:49 PM
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I really dont care what somebody else does with them but they would loose their head at my house. Remember that I dont breed for color and the actual color means nothing to me but those are just plain ugly birds. Joe
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
944 posts
Dec 21, 2006
8:58 PM
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If they rolled to my standards they could fly in my kits any time.
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motherlodelofts
1170 posts
Dec 21, 2006
9:25 PM
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And a nice addition they would be for you bro LOL LOL
Scott
Last Edited by on Dec 21, 2006 9:25 PM
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luis
44 posts
Dec 22, 2006
12:17 AM
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Hate to say it but those are not very good looking birds at all.They look like they have something weighting them down and their a little fat too!!
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scotty
38 posts
Dec 22, 2006
12:25 AM
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I belive adding lace may be detramental to the focus of performance in my opinion.-scotty
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
951 posts
Dec 22, 2006
10:54 AM
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Like it or not, reduced was discovered in Rollers.
This is no different than a dun. Dilute and Reduced are the same type of sex linked recessive. These are reduced spread blue. If they were dilute spread blue (duns), no one would say a word.
Learn genetics people before you jump on the witch hunt band wagon.
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STARFIRE
193 posts
Dec 22, 2006
11:18 AM
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Hey Guys:
Every body is entitled to their own opinion,Likes or dislikes,If you like them ,thats fine,If you don't like them thats O.K.too.Nobody really cares.Only the shit disturbers.They are trying to brainwash everybody.
STARFIRE
Last Edited by on Dec 22, 2006 11:24 AM
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motherlodelofts
1174 posts
Dec 22, 2006
12:49 PM
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Brian, are you trying to say those are Birmingham rollers in any shape or form ? okie dokie smokey , but hey , it sure makes competing much easier if others think so , I say breed the hell out of em guys !!!!
As for Ruduced in roller's it was found in some kids loft (hmmm) and Roger Baker had to make it roll by breeding it into other birds , at least that is what he wrote
Scott
Last Edited by on Dec 22, 2006 12:51 PM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
955 posts
Dec 22, 2006
2:14 PM
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Re-read my post Scott. Do I say Birmingham Roller? You know my position on that name thing. I don't even consider my birds to be Birmingham Rollers though you might.
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motherlodelofts
1182 posts
Dec 22, 2006
2:18 PM
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Ok , are you saying that those birds pictured can do it the way you and I would insist on ?
Would you take those two home ? would you breed those two to your best ?
Scott
Last Edited by on Dec 22, 2006 2:19 PM
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STARFIRE
202 posts
Dec 22, 2006
2:41 PM
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Hey Scott:
Nobody said if they were rollers,or not.I don't know.Can't you keep a pretty bird in your loft?It don't have to roll.It only has to look good On the perch.You don't have to breed it with your birds ,you can keep them separate,like Mookies or fantails or any other non performing or show birds.They are a good conversation piece when your buddies come over to visit.There's a lot of pretty breeds of birds.Nobodys trying to make them roll.They are what they are.And if you don't like them ,dont keep them.That's up to the individual.
STARFIRE
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
956 posts
Dec 22, 2006
2:45 PM
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I won't say that any bird posted here as a picture can do it the way I like. You can't tell anything from a picture. I could post a picture of the stiffest POS I own and say it is a great roller and all a person reading and viewing it can do is accept my comments, whether they are accurate or not. You will never know unless you see them in the air, that is after all, the true deciding point.
Would I take them home and breed them? No. Would I offer to fly them out and see what they can do? Sure. I have no problem with that. If they rolled as good as my best ones I've given a chance to breed from did, then I would most certainly breed them and see what they would produce. It matters not to me what color they are or who they come from. If they can reproduce good kit birds that meet my criteria for competition kits, then by all means. I like to keep my options open because all I care about is competition kits, not the heritage of a bird or what color it is. I leave that part up to you guys to argue endlessly over.
For what it is worth, one of the top three birds I bred in 06 is an andalusian, a great spinning hen that is ugly, but spins really good and has been in my A team for the last four months. If all I cared about was the heritage or visual show pen potential of the bird, I wouldn't be flying it now would I? But I prefer to be smarter than that. Every bird is a troop to me, nothing more, nothing less. Just a troop.
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motherlodelofts
1183 posts
Dec 22, 2006
2:45 PM
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Yes Stan , you are correct on that one , but that is someones color Roller breeding project from the looks of it, and if you ask them my money says you will get an ear full of what fine spinners they are .
Scott
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motherlodelofts
1184 posts
Dec 22, 2006
2:52 PM
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Brian, this I wrote yesterday.
"I like that bird very much George, that is a clasic example of a Birmingham Roller , does that mean it's a good spinner ? no , but if the roll is there the probability is very good that it is a nice qaulity spinner with the mental and physical strength to handle it.
Many that I have seen posted over the last few days are just the opposite and should been culled along with every thing behind them."
No those birds are not worth flying out , nothing but a waste of feed and perch space , my money says kitting and early landing would be major issues also.
Scott
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STARFIRE
203 posts
Dec 22, 2006
2:55 PM
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Hey Scott;
What does it matter?We'll never see them in the air.
STARFIRE
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BR Rollers
50 posts
Dec 22, 2006
3:23 PM
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Okay guys, I see most who are contributing to this post are not from the eastern part of the country. I have personally seen birds of this exact color flying in awesome kits here in NC. Joebob flew and scored over 1500 points in the world cup this year. He didn't fly these in his Competition kit, BUT that day I did see some fly like this in his second kit flown. They were young birds I believe but none the less they were spinning there asses off! If anyone knows Joebob he is out for perfection. One single flaw of any kind its gone! He told me he doesn't mess with any bird that shows any fault. He doesn't have time for that and spends all his time on the good birds with no faults.
I don't own anything like this but if the right person with good flying credentials offered me some I would try them out.
Oh I do have a question for you guys. When someone wins the world cup or Fall Fly do they list everything about every bird invoved in that competition? For example, band numbers, sex of participants, colors, patterns, muffs, grouse legged, crested. Does it really matter as long as you make the watchers shit there pants when they see what you put together in the air? I am out to build the best kit I can. I say Paint stripes on um baby as long as they do what they are supposed to do!
Ronnie
Last Edited by on Dec 22, 2006 3:40 PM
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motherlodelofts
1185 posts
Dec 22, 2006
4:04 PM
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Ronnie , look beyond the color on those two , JoeBob isnt a color breeder either.
Scott
Last Edited by on Dec 22, 2006 4:06 PM
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belle
84 posts
Dec 22, 2006
4:37 PM
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"Joe Bob he is out for perfection. One single flaw of any kind its gone" and then some of us are lucky enough to get these birds.LOL No Joe Bob is not a color breeder but I think he has just about every color. Hey RB Rollers what part of NC are you from?
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Ballrollers
524 posts
Dec 22, 2006
8:19 PM
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I can tell you for certain that there is a major difference between those two birds and anything that you will find in Joe Bob's loft. The only similarity is the color and modifier....
Cliff
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BR Rollers
51 posts
Dec 22, 2006
11:45 PM
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Scott, you said you wouldnt let those on your property! I miss understood that to mean the color, but what you really meant was those particular birds. I see now what you mean.
If Joebob were to offer you a pair of this color you would be smiling...lol.
Cliff how are you my friend? You are correct in your post. I put on my glasses and now see the lack of BR expression and maybe a little goose mixed in...lol
Belle I live in Fayetteville NC and you? Maybe we have met at one of the NC flys? I always take my 10 year old son Ben with me to flys and we are pigeon partners. BR stands for Ben & Ronnie's Rollers.
Take care all and Merry Christmas!
Ronnie
Last Edited by on Dec 22, 2006 11:47 PM
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motherlodelofts
1188 posts
Dec 23, 2006
7:23 AM
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Ronnie,
I'm trying to point out that you look through the feather pigment of the bird and look at what is important about the bird , Cliff nailed it for you.
But no I would "not" allow any color bird onto the property Ronnie.
But then I don't bring any birds in anymore , there is no need and I need my breeding boxes and perch space for my own birds.
Scott
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knaylor
375 posts
Dec 23, 2006
9:50 AM
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Funny thing to me is all you color guys like to ride Joe Bobs coat tails. I see hundreds and hundreds of posts from Joe Bob on other sites and I have never once seen him talk about color. I also know that a close friend of mine bought birds from him and asked about color. His reply was "I dont mess with that crap". Can someone please explain this?? and honestly
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MILO
71 posts
Dec 23, 2006
10:25 AM
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No Naylor.
When he is still alive we can't comment. When he is long gone, then we can put words in his mouth, and distort his writings...LOL
c
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belle
85 posts
Dec 23, 2006
6:05 PM
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Hey Ronnie, I live in waxhaw not far from Joe Bob. I haven't been to any flys I plan on going to a lot this year and hoping to fly mine in 2-3 years, but I still have a loooooooooot to learn. I am only going in my 2nd breeding season.
Justin
Last Edited by on Dec 23, 2006 6:13 PM
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BR Rollers
53 posts
Dec 23, 2006
6:24 PM
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Hey Justin.
I went to a guys house to watch some birds fly that lived just down the road from Joebob. He had a very nice set up for the exception of some very tall tree's surrounding his entire yard. It was making it very hard for the birds to fly. Was that your place? If so we have met.
Do you know Larry that puts on the bird sale/swap in Monroe? Alot of us Roller guys go just to look around talk rollers and shoot the breeze.
Take care.
Ronnie
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belle
88 posts
Dec 24, 2006
10:39 AM
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No that was not me, Yes I know Larry I was just at his place 2 weeks ago, I went to the sale/swap last spring and then in the fall I plan on going to the next one this spring. Did you sale birds at the one last spring?
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BR Rollers
58 posts
Dec 24, 2006
5:34 PM
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Hey Justin.
I do not sell rollers when I go to the bird sale/swap. I did buy a few from Joebob last spring. I usually go to look around and sometimes I will buy a bantam or 2 for my son. Just about every Roller person in the regeon shows up and we have a nice visit .
Ronnie
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Ballrollers
529 posts
Dec 27, 2006
5:20 PM
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Naylor,
When most guys refer to color birds, they are referring to the South Carolina or James Turner family. This happens to be the core or the base of Joe Bob's family, as it has for several decades, now. With Joe Bob's World Cup win, it proved what many of us have known for years....that this family is solid, when it comes to performance, whether you call them Turners, South Carolina or "colored birds". I have an entire file of e-mails from Joe Bob discussing the (color) birds he has given me (Indigo, reduced or blue lace, and Andalusian), his breeding program regarding his introduction of the Jaconette, Baker, and Starley blood into the base Turner family; what it did and didn't do for the performance, including the need to constantly breed back to the base South Carolina stuff to retain the speed and quality he is looking for. If I thought you were REALLY in his breeding program, I would ask Joe Bob if he would mind if I shared a few of those private e-mails with you. But what you are looking for is fodder for more of your ridicule and prejudice, so I guess you will just have to go on wondering how this family of "color" birds keeps on winning! LOL! I respect the inclination of most guys who breed this family, including Joe Bob, to let their birds do the talking for them in the competitions, rather than subject themselves to being disrespected by the ignorant and the ill-informed in this hobby. No-one wins in those scenarios....the hobby loses...big time....So what you are saying about many of these guys not making a big point of it, makes perfect sense...
YITS,
Cliff
Last Edited by on Dec 27, 2006 5:24 PM
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motherlodelofts
1218 posts
Dec 27, 2006
5:30 PM
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Cliff , doesn't the core of his birds go back to Don Simpson and not Turner ? at least that is what he said , on top of it he has crossed a few familys together over the years trying to get stability (like many with those birds)Soooo , how do you figure that they are mainly this or that ?
What he has created is all his and so is the credit, there is no such thing as one big single family through out the South (Turners).
That doesn't even make sence and is a pretty silly statement , shoot my birds and Kenny Billings birds are even heading off in seperate directions and I started with his birds with NOTHING else crossed in.
In short Cliff his birds are his birds and he alone made them what they are by combining several gene pools , I might add that the Starleys certainly don't lack anything in the qaulity and speed department , he is working them for a reason.
Kevens right, never have I seen so many riding one mans shirt tails and trying to justify color breeding with it, he had ONE color bird in his kit WHOOOOOOOPY FRIGGING DOO.
Hey Kenny Billings can I use your 2nd 6th and 8th W/C finals record and 11 bird finals win and claim how great my birds are due to it ??? please LOL LOL
Scott
PS is there actually a Turner family or just a collection of birds, color projects ect. ?
Last Edited by on Jun 02, 2007 6:03 PM
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nicksiders
1074 posts
Dec 27, 2006
5:53 PM
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I would not give Turner credit for JoeBob's birds and I would bet that JoeBob doesn't give Turner credit for them either. What ya think, Cliff?
He has made it clear that he doesn't mess around with that color stuff. Not all of Turner's stuff is about color anyway.................geesh. You're making me old, Cliff.
Nick
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Snicker Rollers
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Ballrollers
530 posts
Dec 27, 2006
7:00 PM
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Hehehehehe...man, talk about gettin' old!! LOL! You guys take the cake. We've been over this and over it, but since you seem to have conveniently forgotten the facts, I'll set the record straight, once again.
Scott, THE BASE FAMILY OF JOE BOB'S FAMILY IS THE JAMES TURNER FAMILY!!!! DID YOU GET THAT YET? He credits James Turner and James Turner alone for creating the quality of performance in the family he used as the base for his competition birds. You want to see the e-mails, my friend? E-mail me privately. Who said anything about color breeding? I can't say that I know any color breeders, personally. I'm talking about guys breeding the James Turner family of indigo, andalusian, reduced, brown, dominant opals, and almond, in addition to the standards; all for competition, and because of the quality of their performance. I know that hurts you guys, tremendously, to admit that. (By the way, I have never heard him mention a Don Simpson bird in his breeding program nor have I seen any on any of the pedigrees). He calls them "South Carolina birds to avoid just this kind of bulls#@*t from guys like you in the hobby!
I guess we're back to the same old discussion. You're talking feather color, I'm talking family of origin of the birds. An Indigo and an Andalusian, when paired for performance alone, can throw more Indigo, more Andalusian, spread (black), or blue check. Same with reduced birds. So are those last three color birds in your mind? Are birds that carry color modifiers, but don't express them, color birds to you guys? Are they guys who breed these birds color breeders? What if his name is David Strait? What if his name is Joe Bob Stuka? What if his name is Cliff Ball? I'll leave that up to you to twist around in your mind however you like...LOL!
Oh, yeah, they are definitely HIS family of birds at this point, his credit...nobody said they were not. But that's like saying do you give any credit to the guy you got your birds from? or even Pensom for that matter?...same thing...no more, no less. (Of course, as you well know, these birds go back to Pensoms, as well.) And by the way, Scott, there is definitely a James Turner family....bred for performance with some specific color modifiers added many decades ago....with pedigrees and all right back to the foundation birds....Geesh, I can't believe that I am actually saying that. LOL!
Nick, ol' boy, I'll let you answer that question for yourself. I got five pair off Joe Bob, as loaners, because they are among his best producers. Two are indigo, one is Andalusian, one is Blue-lace, one is a black bar, and one is a recessive red. Nawwwwwwww. You're right, Nick. He doesn't mess around with that color stuff. LMAO! And the funny part is, he actually means it when he says he doesn't mess around with color stuff!!! LOL! Because he breeds for performance!!!! You guys just don't get it!! LOL! Once again, you're gonna try to sit there 3000 miles away and try to tell me what color the birds are from Joe Bob that I am breeding....truly an incredible feat! Or else you are calling me a liar, which I would never forgive. But I WOULD ask you to put your money where your mouth is. How about we put up the titles to our homes? Care to wager on the color or the origin of these birds, my friend? Nawwwwww. I didn't think so....just keep runnin' your mouths. LOL! Does he give Turner credit? Absolutely..and he has done so in many e-mails to me. "Every time I outcross to another family to try get a ()wing position instead of a high H, I have to go back to the Turner stuff to get back the speed and quality I lost in the outcross. My only regret is that I didn't keep a larger breeding stock of pure Turner birds on hand," he coached me a few months ago. You be the judge, guys. Does it sound like he is giving any credit to Turner? Nawwwww you guys know it all. LMAO! Hell, if Joe Bob were here, you'd be trying to tell HIM what color his own birds are that he is breeding! LOL!
Hope you have a prosperous New Year fellas!
YITS,
Cliff
Myth Masher
Last Edited by on Dec 27, 2006 7:02 PM
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motherlodelofts
1220 posts
Dec 27, 2006
9:14 PM
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Cliff wrote
"I can't say that I know any color breeders"
Buddy do you really want to go there again ? Cliff, you and the truth really don't get along real well do you ?
Scott
PS you may want to ask about the Don Simpson birds
Last Edited by on Dec 28, 2006 2:02 AM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
988 posts
Dec 27, 2006
9:27 PM
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knaylor
398 posts
Dec 28, 2006
1:33 AM
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Whatever Cliff, If you feel better believing your crap then more power too you. Its just funny how you and Joe Bob talk totally differently about his birds backing. Maybe its JB that is lying to everyone that he talks to not you????
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
963 posts
Dec 28, 2006
5:22 AM
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Hey Stan, so you stole that first picture from another site and posted it here? LOL
Now people will start thinking your Elvie with a CD to sell. LOL I'll meet you out back, I want two of them. LOL
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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nicksiders
1082 posts
Dec 28, 2006
9:53 AM
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ah.....okay, sounds like babble to me.
Cliff, are you going to be this way when I drive all the way out to Greensboro, NC for my first convention? I think I need to bring my IPOD(LOL)
Nick
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Snicker Rollers
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STARFIRE
242 posts
Dec 28, 2006
10:07 AM
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Hi Tony:
Those birds sure arn't mine.I figure If the poeople that post these pics dont want anybody else to have them they would put a "no right click allowed" on them.I think I got them on eggbid.I 'm not Elvie or I'd be charging you to see them LOL.I got lots of pics off the internet from all over.You want to see some white barred mookies?Or crested tipplers?Or saints.Or baku tumblers?The list goes on.I like a lot of show birds,and different color.Does that make me an evil person,out to destroy the image of the sacred great true Birmingham roller?No it just means I like some show birds.If I had a barn,I d have lots of different birds.Gee I didn't know some people on this site were so sensetive.LOL
STARFIRE
Last Edited by on Dec 28, 2006 10:11 AM
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Bird
1 post
Dec 28, 2006
6:20 PM
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Anyone who believes you can produce that particular color out of pure bred Birmingham Rollers, without crossing to another breed is foolish. All you have to do is look at the top flyers. I haven't seen that color at Jerry Higgins, Norm Reeds, Frank Lavins, I don't rememder seeing any J Leroy Smith, or Bill Pensom birds that were that color, come to think of it, I haven't seen that color at any respected Roller breeders loft. Just food for thought.
Bird
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
990 posts
Dec 28, 2006
6:57 PM
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Bird, I doubt I am very respected, but have you been too my house? Obviously not.
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Ballrollers
535 posts
Dec 28, 2006
7:15 PM
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Bird,
Not much food for thought there, buddy. It's more like the regurgitations of what you have let somebody shove down your throat. Where would you like for me to start with that list of "respected" roller men with reduced (blue-lace) Birmingham rollers in their lofts, that have never crossed in another breed? World Cup winners good enough? How about NBRC National champs. Does that meet your criteria for well-respected? How about regional qualifiers for World Cup or NBRC National Championship comps? How about Master Flyers or Hall of Famers? LOL! Just let me know, I'll start the list for you.....in all of the categories above. And then I want you to make a committment to visit each one of these lofts and see the birds fly for yourself, instead of believing the propoganda being put out by some of these guys, without even checking it out for yourself. And then you can decide what is well-respected and talk about what is so in other men's lofts.
YITS,
Cliff
Last Edited by on Dec 28, 2006 7:25 PM
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Bird
2 posts
Dec 28, 2006
8:44 PM
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MCCORMICK
Don't need to. The only people that believe that B.S usually have more than one breed of pigeons. Their second or third breed 99% of the time usually consist of rare colors, which in nonperforming breeds mean nothing. When showing pigeons, as long as the birds being shown conform to the written standard what color they are really dosen't matter. Unless your showing Nuns, Helmets ect. ect. On the other hand if you cross a common pigeon on a homer, or an Ice pigeon on a Roller, and believe those crosses won't effect the performance of the birds your mistaken. P.S
Those pigeons, not Rollers, PIGEONS sure look like Ice Pigeons. If we were to perform DNA tests on all those so called Rollers the truth would be told, and the crossers
exposed.
Bird
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