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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
Thoughful Responses Wanted
Thoughful Responses Wanted
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
975 posts
Dec 30, 2006
6:12 AM
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Scott and Cliff and whoever else would care to respond, in your opinion, in the hands of an experienced fancier, would good rolling Birmingham Roller stock of the Ash-Red and Blue series perform consistently better than so-called “rare-color” Birmingham Rollers in the possession of the same fancier?
Why or why not?
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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C.J.
822 posts
Dec 30, 2006
6:26 AM
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The word OPINION being the operative word here Tony LOL.
Scott will never side with coloured birds.
C.J.
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
168 posts
Dec 30, 2006
6:55 AM
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Tony ,without being biased or predudice, generaly speaking no, but on the other hand there has been colored birds that perform or should i say have out performed in quality than the ash red -red checks- blues. Tony i really believe it all matters on the chef and how he cooks it. Birds have to be bred in the quality and most important ,it has to be maintained in the genes and the physique.
Any roller can roll but to what degree of quality(calibre or CRAP).
R-LUNA
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Hector Coya
88 posts
Dec 30, 2006
9:22 AM
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I think the quality of the breeder has more to do with it than anyone gives credit to.
Iv seen good birds look bad at the hands of bad breeders,and ive seen avarege rollers look good when someone knows how to work them,i met a guy in Pomona CA,his name is Fred Jackins,when i met him he never had competed anywhere,i was amaized at the freqancy and deph of his birds.
Me and everyone that saw them told him he should fly the Fall Fly,He did and got over 400 point's unfortunatly we didnt know he wasnt an NBRC member so he got DQ,had he been he would have goten 2nd place with Pet Shop Rollers.
hector C
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motherlodelofts
1235 posts
Dec 30, 2006
9:28 AM
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Tony, that depends on what it is and who it is, Andulution is a good example , it was easy to work with , meaning that they didn't have to keep going back into the source.
Therefore they were able to bury the Mongrel deep and yet still have the Andy ,but yes the mongrel is still floating around there , other than the color you really can't tell the difference , but like any color , mongrel or not, if you breed for it you aren't moving forward (it would be interesting to inbreed such a bird hard and see how quikly it reverts back , if at all).
And yes there are some good one's ,and most of them came through Turners hands, but one thing that you will notice is that they are being crossed into other families of pure blood due to stability problems , and yes lack of stability is a "major" fault , kitting issues ect. play hand in hand with stability issues.
Basicly the the guys that do well that have it in the loft just have it floating around in the gene pool.
But one thing you will also notice with these guys that do well is that they don't use it as a consideration in the matings to make color birds or to dictate the color being breed.
Most of the guys that we are dealing with here are a different animal though, these guys are color breeders, in other words they breed and stock for it , and it plays into why they mate what to what, big no no.
Many of these guys will also have the way out there stuff, Stencel,Pencel ect. some of them also have the crossbreeding experments going ,the crests posted here are the same and much of this stuff is totaly unreconizable as any breed no matter what color you paint them or if you shave the crest off.
As you can see most of these guys try to ride the shirt tails of the real flyers and breeders to justify what they do, and in the same breath deny that they are doing it.
Now can you head over and buy birds from Slobberknocker or his cohorts and expect to do well in the World Cup, no, not a frigging chance , although they like to insinuate that they are breeding the same birds as those that have done well,they are not even close to the same birds , nor do they have the breeding skills if they were, plus trhe agendas are different, just more deceit by color breeders .
Hell I couldn't even color breed for blue bars within my family without sliding backward , breeding a first class stud and kits is no easy task as it is, and you darn sure better be concentrating on one thing and only one this in your matings.
They always play the same game, go way way back, you will see where they denied that other breeds were crossed in (like that was a big secret LOL ) then they try to through words to mongralize everyones loft, then they use "mongrel" breed , and last but not least they deny the breed exists , all in tjhe hopes of trying to confuse those that don't know any better.
At first I thought many of these guys were just ignorant about it , now I am convinced that it is nothing more than deceit, think about it, many of these guys been selling these birds big time , then they get exposed on what it actualy is or isn't , kinda of a sticky position wouldn't you think ,and as usual when they are exposed they'll be threatning you through calls and emails because I wrote this.
In short color breeding and genetics is a hobby within it's own , it is also one of secrecy,deceit, and general denial by the bulk of them.
Scott
Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2006 2:09 PM
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MILO
81 posts
Dec 30, 2006
9:52 AM
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"Experienced fancier" Tony? Man, there is some serious ambiguity there. That could mean anything....You know, these guys will run with anything. LOL
c
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knaylor
405 posts
Dec 30, 2006
10:53 AM
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Tony, when I stock a bird Color is never a thought. Color is never a thought when I put pairs together either. I think when you concider color then you are not focusing on the true point which should be performance. When I say performance I am not just talking about the spin Im talking about the whole package. When I first started out I did like color but soon realized that I had more pretty birds than performers. I changed in a hurry!! I know its a little off your question but that is what I think when stocking birds.
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fhtfire
747 posts
Dec 30, 2006
11:50 AM
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Tony,
I think that an experienced fancier "could" get the color birds to do something after a period of time by selective"performance breeding". Basically an experienced fancier will end up breeding the BEST birds and I would bet a bundle of money that in time...the color would be bred out of the birds. It would be a long process...but a proven fancier will choose performance only and most likely move in the direction away from the faults that the color birds carry.
That same fancier could take the reds and blues and run with them right out of the gate. But we must remember that a proven fancier may not be able to get the best out of every family...colored or not...remember...the family has to be ther right one for the fancier. I am assuming that you are talking all things equal when you asked the question.
Scott brought up a good point..some colors are pretty solid...like the Andy. I myself had an Andy cock that produced some damn good spinners...that kit well, had control...were fast and tight...but that cock was bred to only proven Reds and Blues..with no color background...maybe the reds and blues were the ones holding the offspring together...but the Andy..was a good flier himself. The Andy seems to be a pretty solid colored bird.
So to answer your question...I think it can be done over the long term with selective breeding but it would be a long hard process and would most likely need some reds or blues in the program to help them along...but you will always have those genes floating around...but it would be no different then having a web foot floating around...or a non kitter here and there...I mean...even the SOLID birds have issues that make us cull....I am sure that your percentages would be way low and it would take a LOT of birds to get a competitive team together....I would not expect a to have a competitive team for at least 5 years or more of hard culling and very selective breeding...and a lot of luck...
It is hard enought to get a competitive team together with good proven non mongrel stock.
I would recommend that the person that ever tries to go with all colored birds and compete...should be bald...because...you would end up pulling out all your hair anyway...so at least the person is already bald and is used to it...LOL..
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2006 11:51 AM
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nicksiders
1093 posts
Dec 30, 2006
1:11 PM
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Sigh, sigh.
There is no doubt that if you selectively breed good performance stock back into the mongrel that you could after culling several generations get there with reasonable performance birds, but even at that point your cull ratio will still be higher than if you left the color breed out. It still would be rare to have that solid and complet performance that you now get from the BR.
It is a needles exersize to breed in color if what you really want is the performance. It borders on cruelty when you put yourself in a cull program purposely.
Blah blah blah; blabber blabber blah.
Weird ain't it?
Nick
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Snicker Rollers
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fhtfire
752 posts
Dec 30, 2006
4:25 PM
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Nick...e-mail me at paulfullerton@sbcglobal.net
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Alohazona
223 posts
Dec 30, 2006
5:44 PM
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Tony,
A very good question,I hope my opinion will shed some light.I have had the pleasure to be involved with some very,very experienced performance pigeon fanciers.They have not been just winners for the past 5 to 10 years,but 40,pushing 50 years.One thing I see as a constant from one to the next of these guys are three things performance,muscle and HEALTH.These guys are pigeon fanatics,they have dissected their best pigeons after breeding what they need from them,and found their absolute best birds had the biggest hearts physically.They will take a bag of maple peas,float them in water,the ones that float,they keep,the ones that don't they throw away,they have no tolerance for anything but the best and everthing else is a waste of their time.Even though what they have done sounds labor intensive and a waste to the rest of us.
Tony,the bottom line is the trainer is responsible for the birds he keeps and how he trains and interacts with them.The more concerted effort into them ,the better the result year after year.In these old timers eyes...,performance, muscle and health,is a must to be a winner!! Everything else like color,popular bloodlines,mixed bloodlines,etc.,etc.is HOT AIR,and they will look right through you when you speak of it.
Give a fancier that has this type of esteem for birds,he will get the best out of them and breed and fly them as he see's fit.A couple of years later,THEY WILL BE PERFORMING!!.Ash reds or blues or the other family of Andys and toy stencil.On what side of the fence he will find his best pairings to breed up on ,he'll knowit when he sees it and expodite the breeding around them.To mention colors, blodlines,and alike,they will laugh at you,and you will know why they are laughing!!....Aloha,Todd
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JMUrbon
190 posts
Dec 30, 2006
5:47 PM
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well I think that there are some great rollers out there that are of the rare colors. But if you look at this from a statistics side you will no doubt see that there are a much higher number of birds that are not of color in that catagory.I have seen some great colored birds such as yellows and andilusions. But I guarentee you that if you started pairing even the best yellows, andy's or any other color up for anything other than quality of spin you will loose it in a hurry.
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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luis
78 posts
Dec 30, 2006
6:32 PM
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Hey guys correct me if i'm wrong and i may well be,but i believe the correct spelling for that favorite color of ours is Andalusian.It derives its name from a region in Spain by the name of Andalucia.
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Ballrollers
543 posts
Dec 30, 2006
8:13 PM
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Well, you did ask Tony! You knew that I wouldn't be able to sit here and read Scott's fairytale without responding! LOL!
Actually, I like your post, Scott. Because it so clearly lays out your agenda; one of using a little truth and a lot of rumor and heresay evidence to attempt to create paranoia in the minds of the uninformed roller hobbyist; one of attempting to portray the majority of the men who breed and fly the Turner family of rollers as color breeders. The only problem I have with it is that it is simply a figment of your imagination and has no basis in reality. How many lofts of men who breed this family, have you visited to discuss their breeding programs with them; to handle their birds; or to see them in the air? Have you ever seen the kits of any of the hundreds of men who fly and haave competed and won with this family of rollers, such as James Turner, Roger Baker, the Oulettes, Joe Bob Stuka, Clay Hoyle, Jay Yandle, Alex Hamilton, Joe Roe, my own, Dave Strait or even Slobberknocker, before you became such an expert on the deficiencies in the performance of their birds or in their breeding practices? (I mean we're talking World Cup winners, NBRC National Champs in 11 and 20-bird kits, Master Flyers and Hall of Famers, here!)Nawwwwwwwwww. I didn't think so. INCREDIBLE! That's not even logical behavior, dude! Because that means that you rely, instead, on nothing more than heresay, rumor, conjecture, and assumption for your opinion and to support your agenda. That makes for a flimsy basis for your arguement, my friend, and weakens your credibility. You are a god roller man, Scott. You know your birds and have bred and competed with them at the highest level. But that makes you an expert on one family of birds....your own. It does not make you an expert on families of rollers that you have never seen, handed, or seen perform, my friend.
More to come....
Cliff
Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2006 8:17 PM
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motherlodelofts
1242 posts
Dec 30, 2006
8:32 PM
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What family are you talking about Cliff ? Turners ? who's not crossing them that has done well with them ?
You sure have a lot of names thrown in there that I know darn well don't fly those birds either pure or crossed.
Oullete as one example ? okie Dokie (Don will be tickled to hear that LOL )
What about Baker , I think that he was flying before Turner was even on the scene
Hoyle mainly flys Horners (among others)
What do you do make this shit up as you go ?
Scott
Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2006 8:45 PM
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Ballrollers
544 posts
Dec 30, 2006
8:42 PM
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"Other than the color (Andalusian) you can't tell the difference." I credit you for that acknowledgement, because this is, indeed, a true statement. This family of birds has the same quality of type, feather and performance in the air as any other of the top family of rollers. Why else would the list include the kinds of names that it does?
"(It would be interesting to inbreed and see how quickly it reverts back.)" If you were to inspect the pedigrees of my personal birds, as well as those of Jay yandle and Joe Bob, from whom the majoity of my breeders have come, You would see that James Turner's foundation Andalusian 007 shows up many, many times in every pedigree, as well as a few key black badge and indigo hens from the same family. Every Andalusian that I have seen from any of the men who breed this family, goes back to this key bird, as I discussed in the article I wrote about the development of this family in the 1980's and 90s. These birds have, indeed, been heavily inbred, and tight genetically, since that time. Most of the lofs I have seen and the men listed above have tightly inbred families. There is no "reversion". No more than you would expect the tail of an oriental or the head of a Dutch Tumbler to pop up in a stud of Pensoms, from the Mongrels tht were buried deep in THEIR past....(although there is this question about these crests popping up..LOL!) More recently, men with experience have chosen to outcross for hybrid vigor, but as you have seen in their posts, they keep the percentage very small and go back to the base Turner family for the best work rate, quality, and speed...Roller men have always tried to improve their stud of rollers, regardless of family, through inbreeding and through the outcrossing of other inbred families, and probably always will-in search of the perfect roller. The men who breed this family are no different. That is not an indictment of any roller family! It is a credit to these men; their high standards for performance, and their committment to improve performance!
YITS,
Cliff
More to come....
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motherlodelofts
1243 posts
Dec 30, 2006
8:49 PM
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Cliff , again , what family ? the one JoeBob developed with several families ? Or Yandles with the Jac crosses on the Turners ? what the hell are you talking about ? Do you even have a clue ?
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Ballrollers
545 posts
Dec 30, 2006
8:53 PM
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Scott,
Nope, not making anything up at all, my friend. I know the truth hurts...... I was referring, generally, to well-respected peerformance breeders and flyers who breed and fly (or bred and flew) birds with color modifiers around the time the Turners were being developed, and still are being flown.....Oulette's Almonds-it's not clear whether Turner's Almond line came from Oulette's line or whether Oulette's came from Turner's; same with the famous Blue Lace line of Roger Baker's that Joe Bob has added in to his stud by a small fraction; and Clay's addition of Turner's Indigo gene to his breeding stock. I hope that clears up the confusion for you.
YITS,
Cliff
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Ballrollers
546 posts
Dec 30, 2006
9:03 PM
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Scott,
You are so funny when you are twisting in the wind!!! Yes, I am talking about the base family of both those men...the predominant inbred family they have clearly indicated that they always breed back to when they outcross to breed in some 1/8th or 1/16th or 1/32nd or 1/64th of another family in search of the perfect roller. You see you are trying to mislead our readers into believeing that it is the other way around; that those miscule outcrosses are really major reversion to "pure breds" to stabilize the family. That is just not so. I spent several hours with Joe Bob today discussing this very thing, when he gave me six of his A-kit birds to breed this year. He confirmed, once again, that I am right on the money...that your hypothesis, "One thing you will note is that they are being crossed into other families of pure blood due to stability problems and, yes, lack of stability is a major fault, kitting issues play hand in hand with stability issues," is simply a falsehood, and in fact quite the opposite of the reality of the situationThey come back to the pure Turners for speed, quality, wing position, and work rate!...LOL! He got a chuckle out of that, too! "They'd really like to believe that," he said. "Do you think me, and Jay, and now Clay, and all the others would be basing our entire stud of competition birds on a family that has kitting and stability issues? LOL! Hey, Scott, it's working....some of these guys are actually buying it...Most are checking out the birds for themselves.....just keep saying it over and over.....keep living in that false reality. LOL!
YITS,
Cliff
Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2006 9:14 PM
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motherlodelofts
1244 posts
Dec 30, 2006
9:19 PM
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Cliff , the Oullete Almonds came from them crossing in an Oriental Roller , Dan told me when he was here three years ago that kept a few for old time sake , I believe they were kids or pretty young when they did it, one of them told me but it was a while ago.
I'll let Dan speak for himself , but his family goes back to the Sparks/ McCauly stuff , real deal.
Don told me a few years ago that the percentages just weren't worth it so he gave it up quite a few years ago.
Of coarse he allways had the real deal at hand and he has two line's , one goes back to the 152 stuff I believe, and the other is Plona.
Clay just posted a while back that he is mainly breeding Horners , plus I pulled this up
"And I agree that old cocks from the Horner birds are the easiest to manage.
I have had two kits of them and they are great. , but you can bet that he has some from JoeBobs family also, plus he mentions often some Lavin cock."
Of coarse you don't catch much of this stuff because you were booted from the list where most of the flyers hang due to your non stop color babble , to bad, it was your loss.
Buddy I swear that you just make this stuff up as you go.
Scott
Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2006 10:54 PM
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Ballrollers
547 posts
Dec 30, 2006
9:34 PM
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Scott,
Thanks for the info on the history of the Oulette Almonds...That wasn't quite the story he told me aboout his reason for not flying them any longer. He told me that the performance was there. But he was tired of not getting a fair shake because of the color of his birds; of being attacked, criticised, and disrespected to his face, in person, that he had to make a decision to either get out of the hobby...or quit the almonds. So he gave up the almonds, and he also stepped away from participation in the hobby he loved and from the men who were dissing him at every oportunity. Same story that James Turner told me and Joe Roe in Ohio told me. It's sad isn't it. And now you have taken up the sword, my friend. How many have quit the hobby because of the tactics of the likes of men like you? I can name quite a few.
Your persistance in taking a position as an authority on my family of rollers, one you have little experience with, and basing your position on rumor and heresay, rather than a personal evaluation of the actual breeding practices and the kits flown by the men you criticize so vigorously, would be akin to someone like me choosing to give creedence to and spreading the rumors and heresay that abound about the tight inbreeding of the Pensoms. You know...those rumors that the family is so inbred today that undesireable recessive traits are taking over in many lofts.....things like increasing numbers of crests, eyeless traits popping up...rollers that have lost the ability to rear their young; will not set their eggs or feed their young, requiring the use of fosters to raise them, poorly feathered pedigreed Pensoms that look like they are in a permanent molt. Guys are culling the stuff like crazy, it is said, to prevent the word from getting out. you see the difference in you and I Scott, is that I have seen no evidence of these things. Therefore, until I do, I will not choose to get on my high horse and attack, invalidate, and criticize other roller men and their family of rollers; their breeding practices and the rumored faults in their birds; or the innumereable feather merchants who have sold and continue to sell many more non-performing pedigree Pensoms to unsuspecting newbies in the hobby than have ever been sold for feather color, until I discuss it, see it, handle it, and know it to be a fact. That's the difference in you and I, my friend. I can't see that as being good for the hobby. Based on your posts, you apparently feel that it is. That's unfortunate. You have so much more to offer.
YITS,
Cliff
Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2006 9:43 PM
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motherlodelofts
1245 posts
Dec 30, 2006
9:47 PM
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Cliff wrote :
You see you are trying to mislead our readers into believeing that it is the other way around; that those miscule outcrosses are really major reversion to "pure breds" to stabilize the family. That is just not so.
Cliff wrote :
"One thing you will note is that they are being crossed into other families of pure blood due to stability problems and, yes, lack of stability is a major fault, kitting issues play hand in hand with stability issues," is simply a falsehood,
Cliff I am not really sure as to what you are telling him, but like any top notch breeder such as JoeBob, honesty with your birds is an absoulute must , and he has always been very honest , Cliff , I don't make this shit up , I know what I'm told , this is what he wrote below.
Scott
"But the ones I got,
threw really hot genes with 60% bumping/kitting problems/rolldown.
So I crossed a Roger Baker Codk and Hen, Rick Mee cock , a Danny
Horner hen and a Clay Hoyle Hen over the last 10 years. 1st
generation I lost the Q I had and wanted and when I got em back to
15/16ths and higher, then I got the bird I wanted with better
control. 8 cocks in the kit and one hen was either 1/4 or 1/2 Tom
VandenBossche(Starley/Easley)."
Last Edited by on Dec 31, 2006 8:25 AM
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Ballrollers
548 posts
Dec 30, 2006
9:53 PM
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Scott,
The key point is that in the post, he says he bred back to the same Turner family to get the Quality back at 14/16ths Turners again...stability and kitting couldn't have been too much of a problem, now could it, if 1/16 of a combination of three or four other families improved it just a tad? I've got that 1/4 VanDenBoche hen in my breeding loft. She's the booted blue lace. He told me to breed her back to the pure Turner stuff I got from Jay, to continue to improve the quality, and speed. But he liked the wing position on the Starley Easley stuff he saw when he judged a couple years ago.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2006 9:57 PM
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motherlodelofts
1246 posts
Dec 30, 2006
9:58 PM
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"Scott,
Thanks for the info on the history of the Oulette Almonds...That wasn't quite the story he told me aboout his reason for not flying them any longer. He told me that the performance was there. But he was tired of not getting a fair shake because of the color of his birds; of being attacked, criticised, and disrespected to his face, in person, that he had to make a decision to either get out of the hobby...or quit the almonds. So he gave up the almonds, and he also stepped away from participation in the hobby he loved and from the men who were dissing him at every oportunity."
(There you go again, obviously you don't have a clue of what qaulity birds they have on thier property, and you want to talk about some Oriental crossbred , that figures.
Also ,Don is the only brother that compete's , I passed on what was told , and nothing more, by the way Don is in my area .)
Scott
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motherlodelofts
1247 posts
Dec 30, 2006
10:00 PM
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"stability and kitting couldn't have been too much of a problem"
(Naw not much of a problem at all )
Scott
"threw really hot genes with 60% bumping/kitting problems/rolldown."
Last Edited by on Dec 31, 2006 8:28 AM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
997 posts
Dec 30, 2006
10:06 PM
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Tony, the answer to that question depends on what family and who they come from. Traditionally some of the flat out stiffest rollers I have ever owned were Red checks and bars. Bonafide culls. Blue bars run a close second. But that is just my experience with the different families I have played with over the years.
The must unstable birds I have ever flown were tight up Pensom birds. Doesn't mean they all are as I have personally seen the opposite at other lofts, but it was a good enough reason for me to get rid of them.
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motherlodelofts
1248 posts
Dec 30, 2006
10:07 PM
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He told me to breed her back to the pure Turner stuff I got from Jay, to continue to improve the quality, and speed. But he liked the wing position on the Starley Easley stuff he saw when he judged a couple years ago.
Cliff
(Cliff , I like the way you play the Starleys down , this is what he wrote after judging Starley )
Scott
Lenny Vialpando, Jason Brown, Jay Starley, Guil Rand and the rest of
> >the flyers were outstanding hosts who made it fun to be around and not
>just
> >a fly. Saw some top notch birds and Jay Starley's kit was an outstanding
> >example of the level we all need to strive and take our birds. Jay's kit
> >was the highest Q and D kit I have witnessed anywhere in the world-they
> >were right and gave it all, and Jay prepped them like a master. All who
> >witnessed this kit, saw one of the best kits in the world for Q and D-no
> >wing visible in the spin and many in the 40'-60'. That picture should
> >stick with you all to never be satisfied until your birds hit this level.
> >Thanks to all.
> >
> >
Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2006 10:07 PM
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knaylor
407 posts
Dec 30, 2006
10:13 PM
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LMAO!!! Hey everyone read Cliffs posts!!! If his constant run around on every post doent show how he is clueless than I dont know what does??? Cliff you wrote that the Ouleets have Turner family??? LMAO!!!! Shows that you really have no problem talking about things you have no clue about like allways!!!
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
999 posts
Dec 30, 2006
10:13 PM
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Scott, not to add fuel to the fire, but I distinctly remember JoeBob telling of his experiences with the crosses to his birds and that he had to breed back to his stuff to get the style he liked back. I remember it because it was something I wasn't expecting.
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motherlodelofts
1249 posts
Dec 30, 2006
10:28 PM
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Yes Brian you are right , at least that is what he wrote a few years ago , I'm not sure what he has done with the Starleys, he was going to breed them straight also along with breeding them in, but then you know how game plans change, who knows , but I know that straight anwers won't come from anyone here.
Alot of this was written before he had a real chance to work the Starleys , I'm not sure how they worked out for him from then until now.
Scott
PS add fuel ? sheeze I'm wore out LOL
Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2006 10:51 PM
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MILO
84 posts
Dec 31, 2006
3:39 AM
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I am going to let Don know about this nonsense on my next visit.
c
Last Edited by on Dec 31, 2006 3:39 AM
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Ballrollers
551 posts
Dec 31, 2006
8:11 PM
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Dan Oulette contacted me and we have exchanged several private e-mails yesterdy and today, in order to give me the facts on the Oulette family of birds, so I thought that I would pass it along for those who may be interested, just to set the record straight. In the article I wrote for the NBRC bulletin about the development of the Turner family, when I interviewd James Turner, he indicated that he did not know for certain, whether there was any connection between the Oulette Almonds and his Almonds. Turner's Almond line came from Ellis MacDonald, who got them from a guy by the name of Gilbert, in Utah, not Terry Rhodes, as I previously was told, and reported. Dan told me that the Oulette Almonds were created from a single Almond over 30 years ago, and infused with blood from Dan's "sister hen" family, 514, 272, 313, and his brother's (Don's) Plona line. (Some of these same Oulette birds used for the infusion of quality performance into the Almond line can be found in the Campbell and Billings birds' pedigrees; not the Almonds, of course.) He also said that today, he and both his brothers still have a small, clean, Oulette Almond family. The Oulletes created their Almond family, one that they are very proud of, independent of Turner's Almond line. There is no connection between the two lines that we know of. Dan told me, "Performance is the only consideration. Whatever color comes out-if it spins it stays. If it doesn't, it goes. No pedigree worship and no color consideration. The proof is in the air."(This is the same philosophy used and reported by James Turner, Joe Bob, Jay, BMC, Dave Strait, Gregg Sale, myself and MOST ALL OF THE FLYERS THAT I KNOW THAT BREED ANY BIRDS FROM THE TURNER FAMILY OR ANY OTHER FAMILY THAT CONTAINS COLOR MODIFIERS IN THEIR GENES!!) Yeah, sure, Scott...all these guys are lying. You are the only one who knows the truth about all these guys and their birds! Oh well, a few guys didn't accept the Oulettes work then, and some of you refuse to accept the facts today from the lofts of these other roller men who choose to work with rollers that contain color modifiers. The Oulettes couldn't change your minds with the truth, and I will certainly not change them either...and don't really care to. But hopefully a few men with more of a sense of integrity will see the truth in what these men are saying and stop discrediting them.
Scott,
You quoted me commenting about what Joe Bob told me "...he liked the wing position in the Starley/Easley stuff when he judged it a couple years ago." and you said, "I like the way you play the Starleys down". So who, but a nut case, could turn my reporting of something Joe Bob told me; a compliment, into something negative? Please cut the bullshit with putting words in my mouth that were never uttered and distorting my meaning. That is exactly what Joe Bob told me. I have the private e-mail to prove it buddy, so watch your step with your crap! I have nothing but the highest regard for both the Starley and the Easley birds.....just for the record. And more for the record...he also said that he has not seen any improvement in the performance of his birds so far in the F-l generation from those outcrosses. There...now you can go start another bullshit falsehood that I am playing their families down, again. Now this kind of crap is gettin' real old...I'm out guys.....
YITS,
Cliff
Last Edited by on Dec 31, 2006 9:16 PM
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knaylor
415 posts
Dec 31, 2006
9:03 PM
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Funny thing Cliff, out of al the Oulette Don is the only one that flys. You should talk to him and see what he has to say to you?? Also how is Scott copy and paste putting words in your mouth??? LOL Its funny how every day guys in this hobby get wise to you!!!
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Ballrollers
554 posts
Jan 01, 2007
6:47 AM
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Go back to your room, Naylor. It is not his copy and paste I was referring to. It was the comment he made ABOUT the copy and paste, in which he indicated that I had said something I had not. Yes, you are right about one thing: The better these men get wise to me, the better they will understand the things that I am reporting; the more they understand, the more truth they will have to work with in making up their minds. I recognize, however, that truth and understanding appear as some kind of threat to your kind and to your agenda.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Jan 01, 2007 6:56 AM
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Richard A.
95 posts
Jan 01, 2007
2:35 PM
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The harder feathered birds are definetely the most consistant and are able to handle the most speed etc.
I would answer yes to your question Tony.
A good breeder can do quite a bit with just about anything though.
Richard Apodaca
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BR Rollers
64 posts
Jan 01, 2007
4:47 PM
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Hello Tony.
I havent seen this much steam since I pissed on a campfire when i was a kid camping out...lol
Hello my friend Richard! I agree with Richard on this one. Hard feathers equal better control over speed. And watch out for those hot grizzles.. right Richard?
soft feather X speed/velosity = Crash!
Ronnie
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motherlodelofts
1255 posts
Jan 01, 2007
7:46 PM
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Cliff wrote :
Dan told me that the Oulette Almonds were created from a single Almond over 30 years ago, and infused with blood from Dan's "sister hen" family, 514, 272, 313, and his brother's (Don's) Plona line.
(Cliff , is it a typo or did you just forget to mention that the "single Almond" that you referred to just happended to be an Oriental Roller ?
"Infused Blood" ? I never quite heard that term used in place of crossbreeding before , is that new ?)
Cliff wrote:
Yeah, sure, Scott...all these guys are lying.
(What guys Cliff ? you lost me.)
Scott
Last Edited by on Jan 01, 2007 7:47 PM
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knaylor
418 posts
Jan 01, 2007
10:56 PM
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LMAO Cliff I have no agenda. Also I am still waiting for any truth to come from you and this goes way back to when you were bashing us on the w/c stuff tha tyou were making up. Now keep on posting!!
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Ballrollers
558 posts
Jan 02, 2007
9:11 AM
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Scott,
Yes. You are correct. Dan said the Almond gene came from an Oriental roller.
Cliff
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rollerman132
43 posts
Jan 02, 2007
1:37 PM
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I feel the modifier for those colors will always keep that family of birds from reaching there full potential; the creator of that strain will always have to stock birds that are mediocre for the sake of color. You can’t always have your cake and eat it to, some where some time down the line you will have to sacrifice performance for color,If you were to choose birds from that family based on performance only, you would lose that exotic color within a few generations.
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Ballrollers
560 posts
Jan 02, 2007
6:43 PM
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Wrong, again rollerman132. How many years have you bred them to give you the benefit of the experience necessary to come to such a conclusion and to yield such a proclamtion?..... Yeah, I thought so......just another hypothetical, without factual basis or experience....sort of like wishful thinking, eh?! LOL!
YITS,
Cliff
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rollerman132
44 posts
Jan 02, 2007
8:32 PM
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Cliff the factual basis lies in the genetic make up of those birds, you can’t just extract the color with out taking the genetic make up of that other breed, it’s not genetically possible. If you looked at it by Pensoms standards, wouldn’t you say that other breeds inability to roll is a major fault? And if that’s true wouldn’t that bring down the quality of the birds? I would say that that’s more then just an educated guess. LOL
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motherlodelofts
1268 posts
Jan 03, 2007
6:16 AM
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Cliff , you've bumped your head if you don't think it plays in as a negative factor, there is a reason that you don't see full kits of mongrel color birds doing well.
Only once the mongrel is buried deep does it become less and less as a factor, if you follow the color in breeding you end up with nothing.
Scott
Scott
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Ballrollers
562 posts
Jan 03, 2007
7:49 AM
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Scott,
I agree...If you follow only the color, you will end up with nothing". (performance-wise) and I might add,"If you follow only a pedigree, you will end up with nothing (performance-wise). So if a roller carries a color modifier, but does not show it in its feathers, and it can produce birds that carry and/or show the color modifier, do you consider that "buried deep"?
YITS,
Cliff
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maxspin
67 posts
Jan 03, 2007
12:09 PM
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Tony,
First you must define what you mean by "rare-color" birds. Do you mean that the family caries color factor and may or may not be showing them, or do you mean the birds must be showing "rare-color".
I will assume for the sake of argument that you mean a family that caries color modifiers. In that case your question has already been answered. In the hands of an experienced (and focused) fancier a family that caries color modifiers can do just as well as a family that is only based on Ash Red and Blue.
The problem with a family that carries color modifiers is that there are more "distractions" to deal with. The fancier must be both experienced and diligent that they are only breeding for performance. A new or less diligent fancier will promote birds to the breeder loft in order to not lose a modifier (setback), or they will have "color projects" that waist perch space in both the breeder loft and kit boxes (setback).
End result (in my opinion)….. Most fanciers that have "rare-color" birds will not advance as fast or as far as a fancier that does not have "rare-color" birds.
Keith
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knaylor
423 posts
Jan 03, 2007
1:25 PM
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End result (in my opinion)….. Most fanciers that have "rare-color" birds will not advance as fast or as far as a fancier that does not have "rare-color" birds.
keith this is very very true!!
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Velo99
819 posts
Jan 03, 2007
3:31 PM
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Cliff,
Just how much experience do you have? If I remember correctly you and I started about the same time. Let`s see that was three years ago. So how does that qualify you to personally attack Rollerman about his level of experience? How many generations can one raise in three years breeding year round?
If you line bred immature breeders and didn`t fly anything out, you MIGHT get 5 generations in three years. In turn your birds will be sub par because they haven`t been bred for performance, flown out,and analyzed for performance before they are stocked. So how does that allow you to pull anything that is "buried deep" with performance over color.
So whom is regurgitating? You know a dog will eats its own vomit.
Oh you,I forgot you took the accelerated correspondence course from the En Pee Are Eh.
Gee,I wish I knew as much about rollers as you do.
LMAO
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If they don`t kit,they don`t score.
Color don`t roll and peds don`t fly.
It`s a comp thing,understand?
V99
Last Edited by on Jan 03, 2007 3:37 PM
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Ballrollers
563 posts
Jan 03, 2007
4:39 PM
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Well, v99 (Kenny Hartman, right?), the point that you were trying to make wasn't very clear to me.....I don't stock any bird for anything but performance, and only if it has been flown 18 months to two years. Actually, so far, I have only stocked two birds that I raised myself in '04, and only at the insistance of the World Cup judge last spring during our regional competition...All the rest are still being flown....nope, not true, I take that back. I just stocked a couple '05 hens from my holdover A-kit back on there sires for '07.
Anyway, that would be three more years of experience with breeding and flying this family than rollerman has, correct? In my opinion, a roller man ought not set himself up as an expert on another man's birds and quote as a fact, what is a mere hypothesis about the possibilites, when he has absolutely no experience breeding them and flying them, regardless of what family!
Secondly, just so you know the facts, I own and have reviewed pedigrees with Jay, Joe Bob and James Turner on most of my breeders that go back to James Turner's foundation birds, which includes many generations over many years. So that wouldn't make me, necessarily an expert on the matter, but it does give me some basis of experience from which to discuss the possible outcomes of breeding this family with a basis in reality; which rollerman lacks. My question to Scott was legitimatley intended to simply get an idea of how far back he believes a trait can be carried and not expressed, in his opinion, to be considered "buried deep". Why don't you take a stab at a cognitive answer to the question instead of focusing on trying to bust my chops, or would that be too difficult for you? Is it 1,2,3,4,5,10,15 generations? In other words, look into your own pedigrees. How many generations was that reduced gene buried (carried, but not expressed)in your birds before it popped up in your breeding program as a reduced black? 1 or 2 or 3? And when you breed for performance and ignore the modifier, it is likely to be carried (hidden) again (right?)until you just happen to breed two carriers together (based on performance of course) and then that blue lace or white bar might appear on the scene. But not if Scott is right; then it would just stay hidden. Seems to me it's a matter of chance, to some degree, and depends on the number of birds in the stud that carry the trait, as well. So it may take you three or four generations. I'm outta my league, here, with the genetics, and I'm sure it must be more complicated than that. At least, I hope so....for your sake! LOL!
In my experience, in the Turner family of birds, few color modifiers are carried more than a generation or two when paired for performance, before being expressed. But then I'm dealing, primarily with the indigo gene, and a few reduced birds. Like I said, I'm no genetics whiz by any means, but I think that it would also depend on the trait (recessive red, spread, indigo, reduced, etc.) and whether they are dominant or recesssive, and whether it must be homozygous in order to be expressed etc. Same with other recessives...the eyeless trait, muffs, crests, webbed toes, etc. In other words, it appears to be a very complex and variable dynamic, depending on the trait. I doesn't appear to me that we can just make a general blanket statement that covers all the possiblities.
I didn't qite follow you on that "pulling anything buried deep with performance and color" or "regurgitation" stuff in our post......Sounds like you got a sick dog on your hands, though.
YITS,
Cliff
Last Edited by on Jan 03, 2007 4:53 PM
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nicksiders
1161 posts
Jan 03, 2007
4:47 PM
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Geesh Cliff, you're being compared to the energizer bunny. You just keep going and going. Where is the switch?(LOL)
Nick
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Snicker Rollers
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kcfirl
26 posts
Jan 03, 2007
4:52 PM
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Guys,
just getting caught up after a trip to Montana.
The idea that Don Ouellette would give up a color of birds because someone gave him a hard time about them is a joke. If you know Don, you would know that couldn't be true.
My take is that any of the birds we have could have a non-birmingham in the background - bottom line is we just don't know. I met wiht Gary Barres from Deer lodge and he has Almonds that came over from England out of Ollie Harris stock years ago.
Std or non-std color - either one could have a non-birmingham outcross - we don't really know do we? Do you think the English families would have bald heads and flights if someone wasn't breeding for color at some point? Monty also bred for color, he took out everything with white in it and John Weins was the primary benefactor.
I'll tell you what though, I'd rather have a loft full of colored birds bred from a performance guys loft, than a kit full of std. colors with Pensom pedigrees a mile long from a guy that never flies.
I don't like it if some guys are crossing up birds and selling them as Birminghams - I hate it. But face it, with anyt livestock purchase it's buyer beware and you judge the animal flesh by the integrity f the guy selling the birds - not vice versa.
Ken Firl
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