Missouri-Flyer
236 posts
Feb 12, 2007
7:19 AM
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I agree..Maybe we need to have another drink. :)
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1140 posts
Feb 12, 2007
7:23 AM
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LOL, I think those ladies put something in that Pepsi! LOL
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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motherlodelofts
1441 posts
Feb 12, 2007
7:57 AM
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Absolutly you can up your percentages, if you aren't than you are just breeding qauntity and not working towards a solid breeding program.
With that said, percentages are going to depend on what the breeder deems as acceptable.
Near evertyhing I breed rolls, but there is more to it than that , alot more, no matter what you think your percentages are in the end everyones going to have those short workers , stiff , to hot, or those with a slight hitch in the roll.
Then you take in what shows itself in the beginning such as weaklings ect. those percentages are going to wittle down quik.
It takes time to know what you ended up with , well into the next breeding season in a matter of fact as until a bird is mature you have no idea of what the birds actual potential is.
I only count what I consider A team qaulity , and If I got the percentager as some that I am reading here I would be unbeatable.
Scott
Last Edited by on Feb 12, 2007 8:05 AM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1141 posts
Feb 12, 2007
9:16 AM
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Okay, Scott, now that we have someone of your stature agreeing that a fancier can up his percentages of good birds, what in your opinion is the highest the percentage a fancier can reach in producing good rollers? And why does it stop there?
As far as what a fancier deems acceptable; it goes without saying that I am not talking about crap birds. I am only talking about a family that produces a large percentage of good to excellent birds (every family will produce culls, even a Ruby Roller can be a cull, I have no illusions about that).
In my previous posts, what I am saying is that a well bred family can produce a high percentage of good rollers with the VERY BEST of THAT GROUP being fewer in number.
Even a cull has the same gene-pool as a champion of the same blood line. It simply lacks the desired quality within that trait being examined. Can it produce a good roller?? Ever?? If so, can this offspring now replace the parent as it IS a cull after all?
Also, a bird never flown can reproduce quality in the air. I have done it as I am sure many others have. I have done it before 2 generations in a row with the 3rd generation cock being an excellent roller that is now one of the lines within my family I am using to build my family to a higher level in all the traits I look for.
It doesn’t mean everything before it is now crap. LOL Quite the contrary, I can go in several directions with birds just as good as he.
Read all my posts in this thread together (especially you new guys). They all build one on top of the other. You will also need to read “How To Breed Better Rollers” to help in your understanding and better understand things in proper context. I am not going to publish it online.
LAST NOTE:
“…and If I got the percentages as some that I am reading here I would be unbeatable.”
Scott, I disagree with that last quote because the Fall Fly gives you 1 opportunity to score well to get in to the finals; the World Cup is the same. So out of 365 days a year, no one can predict how well a kit will do.
Too many variables that can’t be controled, to name just a few:
* Time of year
* Molt
* Preds
* Winds
* Time of day
* Heat/cold
* Rain
* Winds
* Cloudy
* Sunny
* Low high barametric pressure
* Overflys
* The judge
I’m sure you can come up with more. As many have said, it is “pure luck” if you win it. Of course, I would rather be "lucky than good" as someone once said. LOL
I would rather see know what is happening over the course of a year in the flyers backyard and also an overall good showing in local club flys as far as raw score and multipliers for depth and quality. This will tell a better story overall.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1142 posts
Feb 12, 2007
9:44 AM
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My foundation stock birds came from Sal Estrada, he was very competitive in his club at the time, winning most flys they had.(he is not currently flying for personal reasons) People would offer him hundreds of dollars for birds which he would not take.
I had access to ALL his stock birds and took advantage of the offer. I am building (have built) my family on the shoulders of Sal and he on the shoulders of other breeders very experienced with Birmingham Rollers before him.
It's not like I went to birdbay rolled the dice and bought crap rollers to start. I got the best that were available to me (Sal and I grew up together so we are life-long friends, I am sure this is why I had the access to his stock that I did).
I am merely continuing the efforts of probably 4 decades or more of knowledgable fanciers who had these birds before me.
Step 1: Start With Better Rollers...
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1145 posts
Feb 12, 2007
10:49 AM
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Hey Scott, I think we are so close in our views to say that I hardly see a difference, merely in how we explain them.
As for luck, that saying is a little “tongue in cheek”. I as said in my publication “How To Breed Better Rollers”, All you can do is position yourself to win by proper management and other appropriate efforts.
I too believe we make our own luck by being prepared and doing all the right stuff, BUT with all the variables we have no control over, we better have some luck.
Paul, who qualified for the Fall Fly Finals and was dis-qualified, had two birds hit each other and land soon after that, he said he had over 200 points at the time. That is BAD LUCK. Or maybe those birds should have had on collision warning sensors?? LOL
Good discussion. Thanks!
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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motherlodelofts
1443 posts
Feb 12, 2007
11:12 AM
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Tony, two birds hitting each other costing a fly is extreamly rare, never have I had it happen to me.
Scott
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1146 posts
Feb 12, 2007
11:15 AM
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Scott, no disagreement from me.
Heck, we had one flyer out here who could have maybe should have been the winner in our region but his birds landed early.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Last Edited by on Feb 12, 2007 11:17 AM
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Missouri-Flyer
242 posts
Feb 12, 2007
11:25 AM
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Tony,
If were talking about the same person, wasn't it 12 seconds early too I believe?..Jerry
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1147 posts
Feb 12, 2007
11:30 AM
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Yeah, Jerry, he was at the meeting on Saturday. Sh&t happens. With well over 13 variables to visit you on any day you fly, any "bad luck" is amplified when you only get 1 shot.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Missouri-Flyer
243 posts
Feb 12, 2007
11:35 AM
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I agree. Still makes ya sick if you are/were the one in his shoes. Hope I get to experience that one day...Hopefully that day coms sooner than later..Going to go visit him this weekend I hope, if the weather isnt cold as hell...hmm, does that phrase make sense?..LOL
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motherlodelofts
1444 posts
Feb 12, 2007
11:54 AM
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Landing early is pure management , also regionals mean little to me.
The finals of the major flys are what seperates the men from the boys.
Scott
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1149 posts
Feb 12, 2007
11:58 AM
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Sh&t Scott, all I care about is who won the Finals and Cup! That separates the men from the champs! Now That's What I'm Talkin' Bout!
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Missouri-Flyer
244 posts
Feb 12, 2007
12:02 PM
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One step at a time..cant learn to run without first walking
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Velo99
923 posts
Feb 12, 2007
12:30 PM
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Tony,
I work with a tape measure every day so my eye is a highly honed distance measuring device. lol
Anyway I don`t do what I asked about. It was one of those locker room comments.
Actually the quantum leap you described would be pretty close to my use of it as well. If I were to get lucky with a couple of pairings my search would be over and phase two would begin. Linebreeding. I would begin to look at and do things in a different way than I was for the betterment of my program. I am pretty sure I know what I want in a roller. I am breeding toward that end. I am looking certain traits both in the physical makeup and well as performnce.
There has been discussion about the traits a bird HAS to have to roll properly,with style and longevity. I have my own ideas about that subject as well. Personally I feel if one were to breed to the physical standard for judging performing rollers,the bird will have the physical make up to do the job. Proper perch presence can be used as an indicator to performance and still have some degree of accuracy to a seasoned roller guy. Its all about the feel in the hand when it comes to my birds. I can describe them but they are just a simple median trait bird. No holy grail just a feel I have in my head/hand I want from them. If the mental capacity is filled as well as the physical the bird will be right. Performance is a given.If not it`s a cull.
MTC
Thanks for the book I`ll send my addy today.
I though you might have it on file.
Hartman,Amarillo Tx? lol
yits
kh
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V99
Good spinners don`t always
make good breeders.
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
Last Edited by on Feb 12, 2007 12:41 PM
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motherlodelofts
1445 posts
Feb 12, 2007
12:35 PM
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The regionals only get you out of the dugout to the batters box , nothing more , nothing less.
Scott
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fhtfire
806 posts
Feb 12, 2007
6:05 PM
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Scott...if you can't make it to the batters box...then you will not get a chance to get a hit..LOL!! I know what you are saying...regional judges differ....and the finals are all judged by the same guy.
As for pairs....I think that some pairs produe high% and some produce lower % birds. I have ONE pair of birds that I have yeat to cull a bird from. That is my Blue Bar 03 Cock and Black Hen. Although I will admit that I have lost a few teams hear and there with some of the offspring that were never flown all the way out...but EVERY bird from this pair has made the A-team. Most of the birds that I have pulled for the stock loft are from this pair...and they are producing too. They either come out black.....Mostly..or blue bar..sometimes or Blue Check..rarely. I have had 4 roll downs from this pair....and that is out of 3 years of breeding....Of course...the culled themselves. When fanciers come out to my house..they notice the blacks are rock'n and roll'n...they are a step above the rest. They come one and keep on going...never had a bird from this pair that was not a H or A pattern..they are fast...tight...and kit like glue....the cock and hen were the same...I flew them both out...she was shallow but fast as hell...he was deeper and perfect quality..both birds had hear and stood out...anyway...some will call me a liar..but that is fine...but I have one pair that is like gold to me and I am circling the wagons around this pair.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Missouri-Flyer
249 posts
Feb 12, 2007
6:09 PM
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Hey Paul,
You wanna sell that gold? you know gold is up at this time and it could be worth it...LOL...Jerry
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motherlodelofts
1447 posts
Feb 12, 2007
6:12 PM
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I might also add that percentages will also differ from year to year even breeding out of the same pairs.
Paul, I hope that pair ends up being the path for you !!
Scott
Last Edited by on Feb 12, 2007 6:14 PM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1165 posts
Feb 12, 2007
7:39 PM
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Scott I agree that not every good pair will kick um out solid every year. It is my impression that a good producing pairs best year of production in their first year, then if left together for several years beyond that the percentages overall lessen for some reason. I am starting to think that if we didn't have such a predator problem that reflying some good stock birds actually might increase their potential to raise a higher number of better birds. I don't believe there are any facts to prove this, but that is just the feeling I get after numerous years with birds that produced better early on as opposed to now.
On the regional flying, I have to disagree. It all depends on the region you fly in. Here, to me in the region I fly in, qualifying or even better, winning the qualifying is the true test, the finals is just icing on the cake for me.
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motherlodelofts
1448 posts
Feb 12, 2007
8:10 PM
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Brian, no doubt some regions are much tougher than others while others are extreamly weak.
You are in one of the toughest in the country , no two ways about it and I can see where you are coming from on that one.
Scott
Last Edited by on Feb 12, 2007 8:12 PM
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fhtfire
807 posts
Feb 12, 2007
11:33 PM
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Jerry,
This pair that I am talking about is priceless to me. This is the pair that I am currently circling the wagons around. I am very picky on what goes into the stock loft. I have only brought in 3 cocks and 3 hens in the stock loft over the last 3 years. 1 cock and 1 hen are out of the pair mentioned. 2 Ruby Roller cocks and 1 Ruby Roller Hen...and 1 blue check hen out of my Tort Cock and Grizzle hen.
I have 1 grandson out of my click pair that I have my eye on as well as a Ruby Hen and 1 cock out of my pair metioned above. I have crossed my Mort birds with the Ruby Rollers and I am liking what I see....I am going to split my pairs after the WC and try some more Mort Ruby crosses for a couple rounds and see what happens...The crosses are between the offspring of my click pair and Ruby cocks that are brothers....if this works out...I will hone in around my Click pair and the crosses...but I am narrowing it down to a select few. I plan on breeding back to the Blue Bar COck and Black hen with the offspring from the crosses..that are grandkids to my click pair. I have a plan on paper...now I am going to put it to the test.
rock and ROLL
Paul
Scott you bet that I am going to circle the wagons around this particular pair.
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AIREDALE
67 posts
Feb 13, 2007
2:53 AM
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TONY,
This has been one of the best threads posted.I have some questions."For example, I breed a lot of rollers over a year’s time; I only keep a hand full for myself to keep my breeding program moving forward. Virtually every bird I ship out is one I wish I could keep, but obviously I cannot" Since you ship out a large amount of your birds,is there a follow up with the buyers? How many of your buyers stock the birds purchased without flying them? Do you recommend which birds should be paired up, and why? Do the the buyers report back their results?I read your book and found it interesting.In my opinion a different slant, but a good one.This post is,nt meant in any way to be critical,I was just curious. Thanks, John
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Missouri-Flyer
250 posts
Feb 13, 2007
5:52 AM
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I understand Paul. Good luck with the crosses..Jerry
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1150 posts
Feb 13, 2007
8:32 AM
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Hey John, I am glad you are enjoying this thread; it does seem pretty informative when I look back and read it.
Let me answer your questions like this: after a bird is shipped out I am available to offer any input I can, each client is instructed to call me on my toll-free 800 number if they have any questions or problems.
I always advise my clients to not fly this first group of Ruby Rollers (due to the cost if they lose them) but to breed as many youngsters as they can and fly those out. That they should put the best daughter back to father and best son to mother; fly-out these youngsters and then find the best cock bird and build out from there using best to best breeding and line breeding to keep the gene-pool tight.
As for what birds to pair together, I will offer my thoughts and often will staple the pedigrees together. The reason I offer my advice is because since 1993 I have gotten to know this family pretty well.
A couple guys that I know of have recently started flying competition with them. I too flew in the NBRC Fall Fly this past September and was given high multipliers: 1.7 for quality and 1.5 for depth, I did not score the points that some thought I should have but we all had the same judge; Paul Fullerton qualified for the Fall Fly Finals using a kit made up of Rubys and Emani birds.
One fellow from Washington flew an entire Ruby kit in the 11 Bird Fly which was his first competition and took 5th I think out of field of 12 guys. The oldest 2 Rubys were 6 months and the rest were younger. I think it was Brian Middaugh who judged there.
Others who don’t compete have called me to tell me they are very happy with the results they are seeing. Perhaps they will start flying competition but who knows.
I can’t imagine that every single bird has done well, but the feedback I get from my clients is very positive. There are several who have re-ordered, that’s always a good sign too! LOL There is more I could say but you get where I am going.
I am considering starting a Ruby Roller club with its focus on the ideas and concepts in the “How To breed Better Rollers” publication along with a Ruby Roller only discussion board so that my clients can have not just direct online access to me, but other Ruby Roller guys.
If I start a Ruby Roller club and website, I may be over there more than here. Probably some might like that! lol
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Alohazona
235 posts
Feb 13, 2007
9:04 AM
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Scott,
Whats your opinion on the percentages of little twerps,when you start going in tight with a family thats already pretty tight.I have got some decent ones with promise,but whats with the others that are small and twerpy?My first thought is to distance the matings.This is my first year breeding this close.....Aloha,Todd
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AIREDALE
68 posts
Feb 13, 2007
9:16 AM
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Tony,
Thanks for the qick reply.From previous posts I thought you made yourself availible to to people buying your birds.It's nice to know you stand behind your product.Good PR.The club sounds like a good idea.Thanks again, John
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Velo99
924 posts
Feb 13, 2007
3:01 PM
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Tony,
Did you get my email? I have been having some issues with my account.
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V99
Good spinners don`t always
make good breeders.
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1151 posts
Feb 13, 2007
3:26 PM
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Hey Kenny, no emails.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Velo99
925 posts
Feb 13, 2007
7:19 PM
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Tony
I tried a different account. subject line V99
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V99
Good spinners don`t always
make good breeders.
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
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centralvalleylofts
61 posts
Feb 13, 2007
7:32 PM
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guys what i have noticed with this question is the many variables of year to year thats weather raptor season and the matings for that year. for some half of that years crop might experimental pairs. and for some new challenges
might accour. but a very reasonable percentage might be just ten percent.and that might not be bad with an extra 3 percent getting better the year after and this might be the ones that get it done later in the stock pen.
just my thought steve.
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motherlodelofts
1449 posts
Feb 13, 2007
10:05 PM
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Todd , that is normal, some of those turn out to be good spinners but they tend to take to much baby sitting.
The funny thing is they never seem to last year after year and end up being the one's easily lost in over flys.
Of coarse you don't stock such birds.
Small is ok as long as it's strong and can hold it's own in the feed try and can take the rigors of kit life.
I don't like my birds to small , I like more of a med small to medium.
Inbreeding/line breeding brings all of this stuff to the surface (good and bad) you breed away from the bad and try to condense the good as you know.
I get very few of the birds that you are talking about anymore , one thing that we can't loose site of is first ,what we breed has to be good hardy pigeons and just plain good pigeons first.
The spin goes on top of good well rounded pigeons , in other words , defects such as puny,weak, lousy parents, reproductive problems ect ect. along with performance and roll faults.
All this must be eliminated out of the line by culling no matter what , that is the purpose of inbreeding/linebreeding.
There is just alot more to selecting breeders and pairings than just best to best , I hope this makes sence and answers you question .
Scott
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Alohazona
236 posts
Feb 14, 2007
9:14 AM
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Scott,
Yes, makes sense,GREAT info.,from the Pro.Thanks & Aloha,Todd
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