Dave Szab
66 posts
Mar 04, 2007
6:56 AM
|
Hey guys,
Let's play "Guess the Cull". One of these cock birds was fast and deep (over 40 ft) and smooth with no deviation in the roll. The other was a short, sloppy, infrequent wing-switcher, that would rather clap than roll.
Take a guess and let's hear your reasoning.
Dave Szabatura
P.S. Ivan, you can't play. LOL.
|
sundance
67 posts
Mar 04, 2007
7:06 AM
|
hey Dave, i`m gonna guess the rec. red is NOT the cull. He looks like he can ball up and really do it. plus If i remember right the band on the red is older and you wouldnt have kept him if he didnt do it right all this time. I`m not sure what to call the other bird. Is it a light grizzle or lavender or what?This is just for fun right.? cause I aint no expert. I just like the look of that red .lol
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1039 posts
Mar 04, 2007
7:36 AM
|
Dave,I like the looks of the red but I am going to say the grizzle is the best.He just looks like he is one of those cocks that don't hold back on nothing.Just let'er rip.LOL. David
|
Flyin Hawaiian
71 posts
Mar 04, 2007
7:52 AM
|
Hey Bro,
Im not playing heh heh
Ivan
|
Velo99
961 posts
Mar 04, 2007
8:01 AM
|
Dave
I`m going with the griz as the good un. Looks a little better balanced to me a little deeper thru the keel. He is in good condition. Looks like he could lay his head flat on his back. Might be a bit thin. If he is hitting those rolls he probably stays thin. Has a nice upright stance.
The red is plumper,and his wings don`t look like they have been used as much if you know what I mean. Tells me he has a lesser work rate. He is more interested in kitty than performing.Damn pretty boy! He looks to lean over a little too much in his stance.
Just my observations from a sophomore point of view.
kh
----------
V99
Good spinners don`t always
make good breeders.
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
|
Gregg
38 posts
Mar 04, 2007
8:34 AM
|
Dave,
Me thinks I know who the mother of the lavender grizzle is so I will go with the lavender grizzle. Not because I like the looks of one over the other. Learned a long time ago that looks don't mean a damn thing when it comes to good performers. Boy is Kenny going to pounce on that line.
Gregg.
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1206 posts
Mar 04, 2007
8:35 AM
|
I'm with Kenny for same reasons.
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
|
Ally Mac
167 posts
Mar 04, 2007
9:10 AM
|
If I was picking one for my loft it would be the grizzle. Looks like he is ready for business. Though I have a few that are similar to the bottom bird and they are starting to do well for me.
Al.
|
W@yne
286 posts
Mar 04, 2007
11:06 AM
|
The red bird is the cull,
I can tell with the expression the red bird has no balls,
Lol joking aside the grizzle looks fit and built for spin but a guess all the same.
regards
W@yne uk
Last Edited by on Mar 04, 2007 11:09 AM
|
MILO
228 posts
Mar 04, 2007
11:28 AM
|
Going by expression alone... The red could be the cull. Doesn't have the confidence as the white. I think that the description you put down could fit the red, not the grizz. Now if you said there was a stiff, I would pick the white. But that's all I can really guess.
c
|
Dave Szab
67 posts
Mar 04, 2007
12:48 PM
|
Hey guys,
I've got to stop the agony of it all. The only one that got it right was Sundance! Sundance was right, the red has the body to ball up fast and tight. The white was a terrible cull. I think some of you guys are fooled by what you perceive as expression, and you need to look more at type, in combination with expression. The red cock was in the breeding loft when I took that pic, so that might have thrown you off a little, because he was carrying a little more fat, but to me that doesn't hide his all around type.
Yeah, the white has that look in his eye and a cocky stance, but that cockyness is why he was more interested in screwing than spinning. As a matter of fact, that strong expression that you are seeing, is the type of expression that allowed him to fight off the roll, which is why he was short and sloppy, with alot of clapping. He was too long cast for me, and you may also notice how flat, straight, and long his back is. He could never ball it up tight like the red did.
The red has the nice cobby apple body, compact and balanced. Notice the upward swoop at the end of the flights. My fastest birds have this, it's a sure sign in my loft that they have the potential to be fast. He has a calm look about him, not the wild cocky look of the white. We need to be careful about what we call expression, because it doesn't mean crap without the whole package being present.
The red cock is out of Eagle's father on Eagle's best daughter. I bred out of him, and got some nice deep spinners. He now resides at Ivan's loft and Ivan is breeding out of him this year. As a matter of fact, I think Ivan posted his picture on this site earlier. Hey bro, slap an updated photo of the red onto this thread when you get a chance.
Dave
|
W@yne
288 posts
Mar 04, 2007
1:09 PM
|
Well blow me down lol,
Like I've always stated expression alone is not always accurate the red bird would not give a good expression to most of the guys on this site. Ive always stated no one can pick a bird by the eye alone. Also the picture of the red bird from your breeding pen was kinda cheating really because it is not carrying muscle and does not look as fit as the grizzle so that's why it threw most people off and turned the people to the grizzle bird in my opinion. But a good learning curve to any newbie what to observe and look for. And like i said it was a guess all the same.
regards
W@yne uk
Last Edited by on Mar 04, 2007 1:14 PM
|
Santandercol
830 posts
Mar 04, 2007
1:54 PM
|
Darn,
I was guessing the red was the good one and you gave the answer before I could!HAH!
----------
Kelly
|
sundance
68 posts
Mar 04, 2007
2:40 PM
|
just got lucky I guess. But the red does favor the type of birds in my loft also. That explains why I like his looks over the other. The lav. grizz reminds me more of the long racer body. but again, it was just a guess.
|
Flyin Hawaiian
73 posts
Mar 04, 2007
3:07 PM
|
What most don't understand is that they get expression and pheno type infixed in thier minds based on an athletic look. Each family of birds can have some slight variations to them but for the most part the basic structure should resemble much of the same. What the majority of you guys were swayed by was the tubular cylinder in which this bird carried over the more robust look of the other. Granted the pictures were decieving to some degree based upon the closeness of the red vs the white ticked cock. Below is a picture of that 40ft ball of dynamite and he is mated to the best hen I raised out of the Bib last season which was a vaporizing H pattern bird and those who saw her could attest to that. Darn bro your no fun I wanted to play LOL!
|
Flyin Hawaiian
74 posts
Mar 04, 2007
3:09 PM
|
P.S Bro hey thanks for the CULL!!! Lmao
|
MILO
232 posts
Mar 04, 2007
4:08 PM
|
I'm at a loss here Dave. Are you saying the red has a better expression? Don't know, but my impression was it was lackluster, you know... hollow, dull...I went back and looked. Perhaps you can elaborate.
c
Last Edited by on Mar 04, 2007 4:11 PM
|
Velo99
963 posts
Mar 04, 2007
4:27 PM
|
Ahh Grasshopper,
When you can take the pebble from my hand it will be time for you to go.
----------
V99
Flippin`The Bird!
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
|
MILO
233 posts
Mar 04, 2007
4:56 PM
|
This is a bird Ken Billings bred. I scored bigtime when I got him. You don't have to play guessing game either, he has produced quite well for me here. This is what I look for in terms of expression. I could say he is the posterchild... Do any of you see a difference in him, and that red? It's not a trick question either.
c
|
MILO
234 posts
Mar 04, 2007
4:57 PM
|
To add to Ivans post, the pair pictured there have the look as well.
c
|
Dave Szab
68 posts
Mar 04, 2007
5:12 PM
|
Hey Milo,
Do me a favor, take your thumb and cover up the head of each bird that I posted, study the rest of each bird hard, and then tell me which bird has the body to ball up tight, fast, and deep.
Dave
|
Dave Szab
69 posts
Mar 04, 2007
5:15 PM
|
Milo,
Also, put your thumb over the head of the bird that you just posted. Which of my 2 birds look more like your KGB bird? You're keying in on the look of the eye that the KGB birds have, it's nice, but that is not the true key to expression and type. I've had just as many birds that have that look in their eyes, that were culls as were good spinners.
The red in the pair that Ivan posted is the same red.
Dave
Last Edited by on Mar 04, 2007 5:20 PM
|
MILO
237 posts
Mar 04, 2007
5:19 PM
|
Get out of here....That's the same bird?
LOL
Ok, I'm done.
c
|
Santandercol
831 posts
Mar 04, 2007
5:49 PM
|
Dave,
That gris looks to long tall & thin to me.More like a pole vaulter compared to whats in my loft as well.----------
Kelly
|
MILO
239 posts
Mar 04, 2007
6:34 PM
|
Ok one more.
What do you think of these two? Or I should say which picture do you like the best? lol
Last Edited by on Mar 04, 2007 6:37 PM
|
sundance
71 posts
Mar 04, 2007
6:57 PM
|
Ok Milo, I`ll play again. Heres my quarter. The bird on top looks like its a little skiddish to me. If it kits it will be out front as a leader, not a follower.I like the wing on that bird but not the look of the overall shape of the bird.
I do like the cobby shape of the second bird. It looks like its been in the breeder pen a while. Heavier body and wing. This bird is deeper than the first but not quite as frequent as the first. The first bird is deeper and faster. Ok, theres my quarters worth.
Now, you`re gonna tell me something like they are pics of the same bird taken a year apart after the molt or something like that, huh bro? lol They do have the same eye....
Butch
Last Edited by on Mar 04, 2007 7:00 PM
|
MILO
240 posts
Mar 04, 2007
7:56 PM
|
Damn sundance. Few steps forward, a few steps back. LOL
Well, first off you are a good sport. Yes, the photos are of the same bird. The top photo was taken later... As a fat breeder. The picture below was taken before it was shipped to me... as a kitbird. Go figure... At any rate, the guessing game should probably be done at the loft, with the birds in hand. Oh, and Dave, ya, one would think the grizzle is built like the 888 cock. I will take a frontal picture of him, to show off his pecs...LOL That is the best picture of the birds expression, NOT of his build. I remember someone posting a really crappy picture of a bird, a badge if I recall correctly and a lot of guys ripped it. This included myself, about the bird being unbalance and with a really small head. Then a new photo clearly showed the true value of the bird, and I was shocked. Can't remember off hand. Anyway, had fun.. See ya guys.
c
Last Edited by on Mar 04, 2007 7:58 PM
|
motherlodelofts
1503 posts
Mar 04, 2007
8:26 PM
|
Ivan you brought up a good point about expression , most can see a strong expression , many of my best breeders don't carry a strong expression , but nor is it weak.
Expression can and will also change , there is an entire package to consider and the charactor of a bird is prooven over time.
Scott
|
fhtfire
820 posts
Mar 05, 2007
7:53 PM
|
Here is my take....you have to compare apples to apples...comparing a breeder to a bird that is flying is kind of throwing a loop on the challenge. The bird in the top looks very athletic..the bird on the bottome looks fat and out of shape...so with all things being equal...I would have picked the athletic bird.
But if you said which birds had the best "text book" body...I would pick the bottom...but I have seen bodies like both pictures...tear it up!~
Now if you have a photo of two birds that are in tip top competition kit bird shape and put them together...I bet a lot would have chose the bottom photo...because I bet the bird looked AWESOME when it was in kit bird shape.
I tell you what...you can look at some of my breeders and they do not show the expression they did when they were young and in shape...it is almost like comparing a Mike Tyson in his prime when he knew he was a bad ass....compared to a older mike tyson who can't remember the feeling...get my point.
The bird on top looks very high strung and may be a little to high strung and kind of off balance with those gangley ass legs..LOL....I like this kind of fun....I myself am going to pull a couple birds from my A-team and a couple that are just OK kit birds from my B-team and let the boys go to work. I tell you right now that I could pull one of my best spinners from my breeder loft and pull a 6th man from the kit box that is just OK and you would most likely pick the so so kit bird...just because it is in shape...
I really do not pay attention to short or long cast...because I have a bird that was shaped just like that top bird and was a STUD!! Anyway...just my two cents...but that was a good trick..LOL
rock and ROLL
Paul
|
STARFIRE
334 posts
Mar 06, 2007
8:01 PM
|
-Hey Guys :
When are you going to learn that the only way to tell a good bird is in the air.Everything you see on the ground in a birds is pure speculation.There is no one type .Good birds come in all types and sizes and the only proof is in the air.
STARFIRE
|
W@yne
291 posts
Mar 06, 2007
10:18 PM
|
Stan,
So so true I've seen big ones roll just as good as the small type also long ones which i don't particually like myself ive seen um ball up just as good as the shorter type. I think what they are saying on here is the perfect shape or build streamline etc in an ideal world the look of a great pigeon . I have always stated the eye alone wont pick a good bird not everyone of us are Bill Pensoms lol
regards
W@yne uk
|
Flyin Hawaiian
85 posts
Mar 07, 2007
6:05 AM
|
Hey Stan,
I have seen your conviction as to no one can pick a bird on the perch from anyones loft, they have to be viewed from the air because they come in all shapes and sizes! I know of a handful of guys on this list given them the oppurtunity to catch and keep at your loft that you wouldn't want in your back yard based on your statement. Character and expression along with physical pheno type can be seen by the experieinced and gifted guys that have become successful in breeding performance rollers. It can be done by a very few but I have witnessed it first hand. Don't challenge these guys in your back yard or they'll wipe out your foundation birds out LOL!!
Ivan
|
STARFIRE
335 posts
Mar 07, 2007
10:04 AM
|
Hi Ivan:
Anybody can come to my loft and pick out the best ones,because I have all good stock birds. They can pick anything and it will be a winner.That includes the crested birds.All my stock birds are high velocity,quality,25-40ft spinnners.It has nothing to do with what they look like.
STARFIRE
|
dave
296 posts
Mar 07, 2007
10:18 AM
|
Stan, are you saying every bird you breed will turn out good? If so, how much are you selling your birds for? I will personally drive up to pick them up.
|
Otis
4 posts
Mar 07, 2007
10:56 AM
|
Stan, Anyone can have all good ones and winners if thier standards are low enough! No offense intended. I'm sure you could win the World cup if you wanted to, so that means all your kit birds are good ones too and you've never culled a bird because they all met your goals! Wow! Give us your recipe, if you will, for how you do this so easy! I'd like to hitch a ride with Dave to your loft....I need some of your stock right now! Oh, I love crests! Otis
Last Edited by on Mar 07, 2007 10:59 AM
|
STARFIRE
336 posts
Mar 07, 2007
11:15 AM
|
-Hi Dave:
What I'm saying is that all my STOCK birds are good.After breeding the same family for almost 40 years,don't you think I would have time to collect a lot of good stock birds?The birds I get from them are for the most part pretty well good.I would say about 80% are good.I don't have many rolldowns unless I go too far in inbreeding them.
I am down to only my stock this year because I was hit by racoons 3 times and they killed ove 100 birds.All my holdovers and all my young from last year.A weasle got into my tin odd bird loft and killed 3 old birds just 2 days ago.I breed about 40 pair every year.25 normal and 15 crested.I always keep a lot of birds just for the very reason of an attack by racoons will decimate you if you only keep a few pair.As long as i have my stock ,I'm laughing.I can breed more.
STARFIRE
|
MILO
243 posts
Mar 07, 2007
11:16 AM
|
|
STARFIRE
337 posts
Mar 07, 2007
11:37 AM
|
Hi Otis:
Where did you read that I said all my birds were good?I said all my STOCK birds were good.My standards are very high.My birds have to spin at least 25-40 ft in a ball with high velocity.My family has no short birds in it.I breed all the deepest ones together to maintain the depth.One of the W>F.judges said he never seen birds hold the velocity so deep,from start to finish.Try not to read things that are not there into these posts.
STARFIRE
|
W@yne
293 posts
Mar 07, 2007
11:42 AM
|
Come on guys,
Leave off Stan until you guys that keep knocking Stan have seen his birds then don't knock um there is nothing worse than people knocking your birds as you will all know. Come on guys this guy has been breeding and flying birds for over 40 years.
Ok some people don't agree with everything that Stan quotes and says but that's his opinion. Guys stop getting personal its like being at school you guys never heard of respect.
regards
W@yne uk
Last Edited by on Mar 07, 2007 12:00 PM
|
STARFIRE
338 posts
Mar 07, 2007
11:42 AM
|
-Hey Milo :Why are you puting personal pictures of yourself on this site.Isn't that forbidden?
STARFIRE
|
Flyin Hawaiian
86 posts
Mar 07, 2007
12:49 PM
|
Well guys,
Like I said in a previous post related to another subject matter I am a student of learning and I have had birds for 43 years but that doesn't make me any better than the guy that has had them for 5 years or less. I have learned things from ages 12 to 93 in how to do it and how not to do it but its all in how loft blind a person can get. Experience being your teacher can evaluate what has been said and what has been fabricated. I'm fascinated over how easy it becomes for some roller breeders but I have to ask myself the question would I still maintain the fire in the belly given such ease in obtaining the ultimate kit and breeders. Nah I would probably try something differrent and give up on the ease of how it can be done as for me its the challenge that keeps me hungry. Pensom quoted that it takes 30 plus years to just understand the breed!! I guess with the technology we have today and the ability to share ideas more openly this is why we can become successful in a short amount of time. Stan the only other stan I knew that bred from that many breeders and them to be as good as you say they are was the late Stan Plona is that you LOL?? Quality not quanity should be the goal. I can assure you personally I have never seen more than 10 pair that I have owned that I would consider top breeders in my book and they were never in the loft at the same time this ocurred over 43 years of breeding seasons. Thanks for your comments.
JMHO Ivan
|
Otis
5 posts
Mar 07, 2007
1:11 PM
|
Stan, It's an awful thing to lose birds to coons, no one needs that! Good they didn't get to your stock loft. Guess I'll have to wait to get some of your birds. 80% good ones is better than most, who else has your stock, so I can go see em' for myself?
Wayne, No ones picking on Stan, have you seen his birds to back his claims. Until someone vouches for or you show me in a comp. or your yard, claims to fame are just that-claims! Heck, anyone can do that! This is the perilous downfall that most newbies have found themselves trapped in, that remains a scourge of the hobby. Your birds quality usually speaks for itself.... you don't have to! Otis
|
W@yne
294 posts
Mar 07, 2007
1:45 PM
|
Otis
There you go again whingeing on about have i seen Stans birds fly. Answer NO but nor have you!!! I just cant really understand how guys can knock a mans birds without seeing them fly!!! Personally i wouldn't give opinions on any guys birds without seeing them fly their best kit(in flying condition) at least 3 times. Otis have you asked Stan why don't he fly in comp?? I think he has his reasons.
Ivan
Stan might have had better luck in his stock loft than me and you hence the numbers of breeding pairs ever thought of that?? I am not trying to state facts but just cant see how someone can knock someones birds without seeing them.
regards
W@yne
Last Edited by on Mar 07, 2007 1:56 PM
|
Flyin Hawaiian
87 posts
Mar 07, 2007
2:24 PM
|
Hey Wayne,
That maybe true but if it is so and you seem to think that it is and I have been in this sport a heck u va long time and have flown in perhaps the toughest area in the world the (northwest) than why hasn't his name surfaced in any of the major flys?? Now don't go and tell me this back yard flyer line I been fed thats enough to make me puke!!The guys that know me know this I live by the rule "That talk is cheap its performance that counts" "Show me don't tell me" and last but not least "put up or shut up"!!!. Each of us has the right to fly what we feed but don't try and shove your inexperience on those who know better it just doesn't work. If you can back it up than fine but I know this thier isn't anyone that has been in this sport of flying competition rollers that would by into this crud you can bank on that. Ive known guys that have had birds for 50 years that are still on thier first year ever thought of that!!!!! Look I've got no axe to grind with you or anyone on this forum. So hit the delete button if need be I will do the same.
Thanks Ivan
|
motherlodelofts
1518 posts
Mar 07, 2007
2:35 PM
|
Ivan , you big ol internet bully.
Last Edited by on Mar 07, 2007 3:18 PM
|
STARFIRE
342 posts
Mar 07, 2007
2:43 PM
|
-Hey W@yne:
Thanks for the support .At least I have one guy with intelligence on this site.I'd like to think there are more but they are pretty hard to find on here.How can anybody learn anything on this site if all the guys do nothing but put everybody down that wants to post on here.They show no respect for anyone or anything that is posted.These guys are all knowing all seeing,even if they don't know what they are talking about.I'm tired of defending any thing I say on this site,so I'm not going to post any more.I thought I could contribute a little of my knowlege to some that need help on different things.But there is no sense in me continueing to post on this site when all I get is putdowns.I'm going to the NPRA site.At least they show a little respect over there.Have fun guys.Keep on Bashing.
STARFIRE
|
Flyin Hawaiian
88 posts
Mar 07, 2007
3:06 PM
|
Hey Stan,
If I'm the reason for you leaving I hope you will accept my apologies. This was not my intent at all. Like I said I have no axe to grind with you or anyone else on this forum. I thought I was contributing to the thread in reading a birds expression and character on the perch and on the ground. Your conviction is no one can do this they have to show you it in the air. My conviction is I have seen it done. So lets just agree to disagree on this one.
Ivan
|
Otis
6 posts
Mar 07, 2007
5:51 PM
|
Stan, Wayne, Please stop with the bashing complaints. No one is bashing Stan and you know it.When you "BOAST" "BRAG" without unsubstanciated proof that's all it is. You've never seen his birds and neither have I nor anyone on here , so what's to brag about. Today's flyers are from Missouri-show us. The days of mercy passes are gone and its not being mean...that's just the way it is!!!!!
Stan has been known to try to play the pity card here when he's been asked for proof, and Wayne you fell into the trap of defending a person who doesn't need your help, so Stan insults the whole list and he wins! Loft blindness is still quite prevalent in this hobby and especially in the old timers but how long are we to keep letting them pass. I would have a hard time trying to convince someone in England as to my prominence, why should anyone be allowed that lattitude. It's not bashing, I don't dislike Stan,just braggards! Otis
|
motherlodelofts
1520 posts
Mar 07, 2007
6:32 PM
|
Boy was that a spot on post Otis , it is rare that you will here real flyers bragging .
That is because these lil dummies can and will make you look silly in a heartbeat with company or a judge that knows birds in the yard on any given day.
The proof is in the putting, and talk is cheap, I say put em up and let the birds do the talking.
You wanna know how my birds are doing ? well I'll tell you, they look like dogshit.
Scott
|
knaylor
459 posts
Mar 07, 2007
6:48 PM
|
Well guys I have talked to a couple of well respected guys that have been to Stans place and watched his birds. Their comments and Stans comments dont match up...
|