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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
Depth of Roll
Depth of Roll
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motherlodelofts
1524 posts
Mar 08, 2007
8:14 AM
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Cliff there is a little more to it than just seperation due to the different dynamics that you will encounter.
But seperation is hard to deny as far as depth and is key , a ten foot bird will show seperation in most breaks.
There are a lot of different dynamics in involved when scoreing a kit of birds and is anything but cut and dry, but it is rare that the best teams don't obviously shine above all others, 99 0/0 of the time even the top kits could be put in the right order without even keeping score , that is as long as there is a standard for qaulity.
This stuff isn't rocket science by any means , and trying to over think it will get you no where once actualy standing under a kit of birds.
Far to many get wrapped up just in point numbers, they don't care if they are last as long as they have lots of points, maybe the fly's should start at 500 points LOL.
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 08, 2007 8:34 AM
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Mongrel Lofts
279 posts
Mar 08, 2007
9:38 AM
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Cliff,
Once you have seen a really good kit of rollers you will change your mind.. A really good kit of rollers can be counted on the break and on their way back to the kit.. You have time to evaluate the roll and get a second count as they return. Nothing like a kit of real rollers working in big breaks, with enough separation and duration of roll to get a good evaluation of the roll, and a good count of the number in the break Twice!! Both during the break and on their return to the kit members who didn't break. These are not short burst kits, the likes Pensom said would ruin the breed if allowed to win competitions.. These are Birmingham roller kits that roll correctly long enough to be judged correctly. I know this type kit is not common. I also know that if this was the only type roller judged, the breed would be much better off.. So once again Cliff, we will just have to agree to disagree.. KGB
Last Edited by on Mar 08, 2007 9:40 AM
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motherlodelofts
1526 posts
Mar 08, 2007
10:10 AM
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Kenny that was a really good post, as I see far to many judges not paying any attention to depth at all , if there is action they score it , competition tumblers would do very well with some judges , and they are well liked because they shower points , sad but true.
Scott
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1053 posts
Mar 08, 2007
10:38 AM
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O,K. Scott & Kenny.I got to ask.
Where are these kits at on Comp Day and why arn't they winning the top slots? David
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Ballrollers
703 posts
Mar 08, 2007
11:53 AM
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Gee Kenny, I sure hope to see a geat kit like that some day...LMAO! I knoew that you and Scott are probably the only guys who can properly identify or score them....LOL!
Just kidding, guys. Well, I have watched a World Cup winning kit, a 20-bird National Champion kit and an 11-bird Champion kit, and each on different days with different judges and with no judges during training. Naaaawwwwww, I guess those still don't qualify...I guess you mean a really GOOD kit, right? LMAO! These guys just got lucky I'm sure....OK, Sorry, I'll cut with the sarcasm.....
More to the point, Scott, there is no question about it...there a lot of dynamics going on in a kit during a break, and it's humanly impossible to track them all. So I can accept that a great deal of scoring is based on an overall impression of what is happening in the air at that particular moment in time. So I agree with you that all this focus on the details of 19 ft. vs. 20 ft. may be a moot point.
But you guys keep bringing up this thing about high scores and 500 points to start...I really think you have a hang-up about it. I'm not talking about total scores. Personally, the number doesn't mean as much to me as what the judge tells me about what he sees. But what I was talking about is how the depth of quality performance is best judged. It sounds like you and Kenny and David and I are talking about different things when we say "separation". We are discussing judging depth of roll. So my understanding was that you and David are talking about vertical separation of a bird from a kit of birds flying or also spinning in a break. I do not see a point of view presented by you or Kenny that adequately justifies the use of separation alone as a good criteria for judging depth. That is all I'm saying.
Last Edited by on Mar 08, 2007 3:43 PM
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Missouri-Flyer
334 posts
Mar 08, 2007
12:40 PM
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Hey C.J,
Dont tempt a guy with an offer like that, or I might be on your door step come fall!... :)
I enjoy watching rollers, no matter who they belong to. I do compare others to mine, but just to see how mine are stacking up..Guys, look out, I will be coming for ya soonnnnn...Jerry
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Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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motherlodelofts
1528 posts
Mar 08, 2007
12:59 PM
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"O,K. Scott & Kenny.I got to ask.
Where are these kits at on Comp Day and why arn't they winning the top slots? David '
Who said that they aren't Dave , it can also depend on the judge and what he deems acceptable, if a judge is scoreing "flashes" then it can get screwy , same if he is judging by no standard.
"Gee Kenny, I sure hop to see a geaat kit like that some day...LMAO! I knoew that you and Scott are probably the only guys who can properly identify or score them.... "
Cliff, I am sure you will (or maybe you have),seeing a truely good team on the right day is not a common sight by any means , I don't care where you are.
Such teams are easy to identify and score , they can't be denied ,that is the point Cliff, that was a silly statement.
By the way , Kenny is one of the most respected flyers and breeders in the country and can dance circles around both of us .
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 08, 2007 2:37 PM
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longarm
90 posts
Mar 08, 2007
5:28 PM
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jerry
put a good horse in the trailer one you can shoot off of and come up around sept/oct and make it a hunting trip to . I should have my fall fly team working well ( I hope ) and some good deep birds rolling well. c.j.
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Missouri-Flyer
338 posts
Mar 08, 2007
5:45 PM
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sounds like a plan C.J.
I better get to workin on that horse then, because all they know is how to rope..lol..
If ya ever are interested, come on down for the best turkey hunt offered to man!!!!..Jerry
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Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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motherlodelofts
1529 posts
Mar 08, 2007
6:21 PM
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Cliff, instead of just watching them, start studying them, and ask questions from qaulity flyers such as JoeBob , not just the judges.
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 08, 2007 8:41 PM
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Ballrollers
705 posts
Mar 09, 2007
5:59 AM
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You are so funny, Scott. You talk down your nose to people and I'm not sure you even know you are doing it!! And then again, maybe you do.....It's pretty obvious that we have to do more than just watch our birds fly, and you can bet every bird in your loft that we do just that at our flys! I usually hang with Clay, Joe Bob, or Jay, at the flys. We all like to point out birds, comment on quality and style, evaluate, ask questions about depth, etc. I don't think I have come away from any of the flys in the past few years without learning something significant. And you are correct, sometimes what they have to say is much more meaningful than what the judge says...depends on the judge, of course. But I still think it is a judges responsibility to tell me why he scored them the way he did...and sometimes that is not so easy to listen too!
YITS,
Cliff
Last Edited by on Mar 09, 2007 6:33 AM
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motherlodelofts
1535 posts
Mar 09, 2007
2:17 PM
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Well Cliff, shame on me for giving you some solid advice, I'm glad to hear that you are allready doing it.
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 09, 2007 2:32 PM
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motherlodelofts
1536 posts
Mar 09, 2007
3:52 PM
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"I believe that over-emphasizing separation is actually part of the problem. If you get a 12-15 bird break of 20 ft. and 3 or 4 continue on to 30 ft. or more, your eyes will follow and focus on those that separated and judge the break according to the quality and depth of those birds. The other potentially fast, high quality, 20 footers aren't part of the separation and don't get scored in many cases. "
Cliff , you don't let yourself focus on just a piece of the kit, you are glued to the entire team at all time's not just a piece of it , if you do let your eye's lock onto a small segment than yes, most certainly you can miss something ,you "learn" to evaluate twenty bird teams by working on doing such , which is why I said learn to study them instead of just watching, most just watch instead of analyze . you have to train yourself to do it , on those 20 fters, yes they will seperate from the kit on the break with the deeper one's, they just aren't as deep , a break of 20-30 fters are easy to score and count, that is as long as the qaulity is there , it are those short borderline one's and questionable qaulity one's that get challenging .
"In Clay Hoyle's winning kit a couple years ago, the entire kit had many breaks where they would drop thirty feet, pull out together and continue on in the same path of flight at a 30 ft. lower altitude. There was no separation. Had that been the criteria used, he would not have scored."
Cliff , nothing is cut and dry, common sence has to play in of coarse , birds spinning are birds spinning , with large breaks seperation is not as obvious, for the simple fact the bulk are dropping .
Seperation isn't everything, all it is telling you is that the depth is there at most angles ,you don't over think it.
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 09, 2007 6:41 PM
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Heyyou
97 posts
Mar 09, 2007
6:47 PM
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Why not try a range finder to better know at what height the birds are flying and at what point they end up at the end of the roll? Could even have someone use a juggs gun to get the speed of descent, should give you a close estimate.
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motherlodelofts
1538 posts
Mar 09, 2007
8:03 PM
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Too complicated , plus there are many factors that play in when scoreing on top of depth , it takes both eyes wide open on the kit , it really isn't rocket science by any means.
Scott
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Mongrel Lofts
282 posts
Mar 09, 2007
8:43 PM
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Cliff, you said,
In Clay Hoyle's winning kit a couple years ago, the entire kit had many breaks where they would drop thirty feet, pull out together and continue on in the same path of flight at a 30 ft. lower altitude. There was no separation. Had that been the criteria used, he would not have scored."
Are you saying Clay had breaks of 30 feet and the birds rolling didn't separate from the birds flying? Now this is better than magic! I have never seen a 30 foot break that didn't separate from the flyers.. No wonder you don't think separation is important.. Heck how deep does a bird have to roll to separate from the birds that do not roll and are flying away from the birds rolling anyway? Again, I just find this observation just the opposite of everything I have ever seen in rollers. The thought is ridiculous if you just take a moment to think about Cliff.! . Just my opinion of course. KGB
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1256 posts
Mar 09, 2007
9:07 PM
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Heyyou, I've tried that many times, I don't think it can be done...that is....using a range finder to range a bird at the start and end of the roll to determine a depth. The limitations of the laser beam, cycle time for the beam to go out, come back and display is just too slow from my experience. Then it is hard to keep the thing locked on one bird. One time I got lucky, by pure accident and got a reading just before a break and a reading on a bird as a came out of the roll, just pure luck, but it happened so fast I couldn't remember what the first number was to know how much to deduct...lol.
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motherlodelofts
1539 posts
Mar 09, 2007
11:36 PM
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"Are you saying Clay had breaks of 30 feet and the birds rolling didn't separate from the birds flying? Now this is better than magic! I have never seen a 30 foot break that didn't separate from the flyers.. No wonder you don't think separation is important.. Heck how deep does a bird have to roll to separate from the birds that do not roll and are flying away from the birds rolling anyway? "
Yea that one kind of threw me also, it makes no sence , at least not to thirty feet unless they were waterfalling and the fakers were following.
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 10, 2007 10:34 AM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1056 posts
Mar 10, 2007
4:31 AM
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Scott & Kenny. It does make sense to me.Having never seen any other kits other than my own makes it hard for me to understand but this is the question I have been asking for a couple of years."How does a judge see what is going on with all the birds in a break?" What Cliff described with Clay's kit is what I have seen a lot of times in my 20 bird kits.The kit breaks,10 or 12 are rolling and the remainder of the kit is tumbling,flying,rolling or whatever else they are doing but they are so intent on kitting that they are staying with the ones that are doing the scorable rolls.Just a mass confusion for me.It is a common sight to see this in my kits.There is not 10 or 12 rolling 20 to 30 foot and the others flying away from them.This I could comprehend and be able to score.I don't have many break at one time in the 11 bird kits and I like that.At least I know who is doing what.
So I am understanding what Cliff is saying.Maybe rollers do different here than in the West.LOL.
But I am learning and maybe someday I will know enough to compete in the WC.
You all that live close to each other and can get together and compare notes while you watch the birds fly don't know how Blessed you are.It gets pretty lonely here in my backyard trying to compare notes with myself.LOL. David
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Mongrel Lofts
283 posts
Mar 10, 2007
5:26 AM
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David,
Turns like you are describing won't ever score much in a 20 bird competition under a good judge. What your describing are a few good birds in a turn with a bunch of fakers. Tumbling and falling and turning back and dropping into the rollers. Yea, these can be hard to score, so they don't. You count what you can that rolls clean and pulls out clean. You don't guess and just count everything that confused you.. This is why I say good separation and duration of roll so you can get a good read on the turn.. Its a farce to judge them micro burst breaks that you just guess this many rolled because they didn't roll long enough to really comprehend.. David,, if you have 10 birds roll 30 feet, legit 30 not the 30 where there is no separation.. I promise you won't be in doubt of who the rollers were. Don't score action but score roll and you can't go wrong. I have flown 11 bird kits that roll together for 30 and 40 feet 8 to 11 at a time.. The judge never had to guess if a bird was rolling.. They rolled long enough and deep enough he didn't have to guess if a bird rolled or just tumble and fake fell with a break.. You don't score that kind of break in the 20 bird or the 11.. If I see a man has set up a kit of short workers and fakers to try and give me a false reading of breaks.. It works against the team, not for them! This is why guys get upset when they see a bunch of action and get a low score.. They want that sqiurley action judged.. Good teams of 20 are not that hard to judge.They roll deep enough for good separation and duration of roll is long enough to get a good assessment of the turn.. Poor kits of short burst tumblers are damn hard to judge if you fall into scoring them.. I just count the honest rollers I can count in this type of turn,, 15 may roll and the kit gets a 6 or a 0.. If I miss some scorable rolls, its because the flyer covered his rollers up with fakers and tumblers.. Its his fault he is not getting scored, not the judges. I hope this helps David,, KGB
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motherlodelofts
1540 posts
Mar 10, 2007
8:32 AM
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Yea I know what you are talking about Dave and I can see it here at time's to some degree ,mainly in Y/B kits , it is a cluster fork , plus they tend to waterfall on the break as a whole.
Scott
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1057 posts
Mar 10, 2007
9:23 AM
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Kenny.This is the first time anyone who has judged has told me you don't score this kind of break.Kind of helps me understand a little better.
I'll keep working on a couple 20 bird kits and see what happens.If nothing else it will keep me from getting bored.LOL. David
Last Edited by on Mar 10, 2007 9:27 AM
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motherlodelofts
1542 posts
Mar 10, 2007
10:54 AM
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Dave , he said a "good" judge , Dave remember , selection,selection, think of the kit as something that you are building to make something , if something throws it off get it out of there.
One of the biggest problems that I see is birds in a kit that shouldn't be in there, they actualy harm it, it may be a bird that is iffy on kitting, or a bird that has poor qaulity.
There is much more to building a team than just throwing 20 birds together that roll, the kicker is, we only can work with the resourses at hand ,in the way of birds.
A few years ago when I was flying the W/C finals, I had a decent team going , but suffered a few losses prior to the fly , so I filled the holes with three sibblings, nice clean rolling 20 footers.
They had one fault though , they came out of the roll a little funky , it was like they came out backwards and did this quick hook to face right , I knew that I was gambling, but I was hoping against hope that he wasn't that good to spot them.
Boy that was a dumb move with a world class flyer like John Weins , he pegged them and they cost me several breaks,and he made sure that I knew it, I still managed a 12th in the finals though.
What I am getting at is that I could have filled the holes with something different , and or flew less than 20 , anything that wouldn't cost me , those sibbling not only added nothing, they actualy cost me.
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 10, 2007 11:57 AM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1058 posts
Mar 10, 2007
12:02 PM
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Scott.So why don't more people fly less birds?I hear so many say that they had to add a few replacements just before the fly.Just like you did.
What is gained by flying 20 instead of 15 or 16 or whatever the least you can fly? I seldom hear of anyone getting a full turn in the Comps anyway.
Less birds to make mistakes I would think.Less birds to distract the judge or is flying 20 help hide some things within the kit? David
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motherlodelofts
1543 posts
Mar 10, 2007
12:12 PM
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Dave , you never want to fly 15 , you must have 15 in the kit to score , so if you have one out bird for whatever reason , you can't score.
If you fly 16 , one out bird and you will still score, why don't people fly less, well that is up to them,on that day I would have done better with 17 , I just blew it was all. My goal is allways a full 20, unless you have had major losses 20 should be no problem.
Scott
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fhtfire
826 posts
Mar 10, 2007
12:30 PM
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Dave,
Scott is so right about building a team and only using good birds. The goal is to get 20 solid performers. I will take my team as an example. Right now I only have 17 birds in my A-team. I have 18 in my B-team.....I do have birds that I could make 20 birds in my A-team...but they are not good enough..some get a little sloppy...but of course they are a little fat and out of shape. That may change when I start training for the W/C...and those birds get into shape...and roll harder and with better quality...I may get 20...I just pulled a Black Cock that has been in my A-team for quite awhile and moved him to the B-team...He is a real deep cock and is usually pretty good...but on our last club fly...he ended up hurting me...because as the fly went on...he got tired from being out of shape and started getting sloppy...that bird and another bird(right at the end)...did not help me...Joe Urbon was the judge and actually told me that those two birds hurt me and brought my Q--to 1.3..but the rest of the birds were deep..so I got the 1.5 on depth...ended up with a 224....but if I would have not had that shit head out...I may have gotten a little higher multiplier.
Most fliers believe it or not...would have kept that cock in..hoping he would hold it together....That is what I was doing..but it was a club fly...but he will not be in the team this coming week at the next club fly...I would have pulled him in a heart beat for a big fly....until he gets in shape. You don't move birds up just to have birds..you have to look at the team as a whole and not individuals...only look at individuals if they are messing up the team...
rock and ROLL
Paul
Excellent post Scott and KEnny
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birdman
317 posts
Mar 10, 2007
1:29 PM
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Dave,
I had a kit last year that was pretty much what you describe, Rolling around 20' or so but not separating.
The problem was they were kitting like glue and on the breaks the birds from the middle and back of the kit would swoop down to follow the birds that were rolling from the front of the kit. The swooping action made separation impossible. Toward the end of the season I noticed a bit of improvement, probably due to maturity and a little more depth of the rollers.
Russ
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1059 posts
Mar 10, 2007
1:47 PM
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Scott & Paul. Back to my question.Why didn't you fly less birds? It is easy to say after the fly the birds should not have been in there but why did you go ahead and leave them in there when you knew there was a chance it could hurt you.Paul you said that if it had been a big fly you wouldn't have had the Black in the Kit.Yet you flew it in the Club fly and have moved it back to the B-Team now.Why wasn't it in the B Team before the fly?
As I said before I hear this all the time.Why fly 20 if you can get by with 17?I can understand if the 20 you have chosen were good enough to be chosen but why gamble with lesser birds just to make 20?
It's bad enough when the ones we pick to do the job let us down.LOL.
Is there a deduction for having less than 20? David
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motherlodelofts
1544 posts
Mar 10, 2007
2:00 PM
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No deduction Dave , and a very valid point, why didn't I on that fly ? just human nature and a bit of wishful thinking that they won't screw you I guess , I might note that those birds fault were not obvious all the time , and another lesson learned after the fact.
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 10, 2007 2:01 PM
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longarm
91 posts
Mar 10, 2007
3:18 PM
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dave
The law of percentages applies to your question. I f you have a 16 bird kit up and you get a 50% break you have 8 points where if you have all 20 birds up you have a 10 point break.
I had much the same problem with my turners dave and as I split the line for comps and non I had to select my kit birds for the crispness needed. I went through quite a few birds who were nice spinnners but they were what I call conture birds ones that break the flight pattern when the others roll and muddled the break. I find that these birds not only make the breakers look sloopy they often made the others pull out sooner. Just something to think about. c.j.
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motherlodelofts
1545 posts
Mar 10, 2007
3:32 PM
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C.J.
Spot on, we all get that , that is what makes it fun is trying to get it all figured out, not that we ever do LOL .
I'm working hard on the team now, and I am racking my brain trying to evaluate.
I have a couple that I need to pull , and I have two hens that need to be in stock yanking at me, I just don't want to loose them but yet with loosing my oldbirds last year and working hard on moving my stock forward ,it has been a while since I have had a really good team going.
Scott
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Ballrollers
707 posts
Mar 10, 2007
5:35 PM
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Kenny.
In Clay's kit, the birds rolling didn't separate from the birds flying because the were all rolling! And I don't mean diving and twizzling crap. Bobby Bradley was upset because there were no full turns scored when he felt he had seen several. There was an 18 and several others that over 12 bird turns.He had three trigger birds that flew just at the top of the kit. When they rolled thorugh the kit, the rest of the kit broke. Granted they were not all in the same half second, one or two might have not exited cleanly, etc. and those did not score. So he would score anywhere from 10-18 birds per break depending on their timing, but my point is, separation was irrelevant. The entire kit dropped 30 ft. then continued forward...no outbirds. Sometimes the kit would collect itself, hovering after a 20-30 ft. break, adjust their direction 45 degrees on the horizontal, then all break again without much forward progress in the flight path at all. Rediculous, you say? Awesome is a better description....about twenty guys in the yard with their jaws hangin' open....Don Simpson, bobbt Bradley, Dave Szabatura and many more. I would have thought that all the REALLY GOOD kits that you and Scott were referring to, that a kit like that one would be ordinary fare! LOL!
You said, "A really good kit of rollers can count on the break and on their way back to the kit." O' contrare......in my opinion, a really good kit of rollers does not have flyers that flew through the break, for the rollers that broke, to return to! They function as a team...as a unit...."Once you have seen a really good kit of rollers you will change your mind", you advised me...well, I would say to you, once you have seen a really good kit, you will understand this. It was one of the most awesome performance I have ever witnessed from a kit of rollers, but I have seen very similar kits at Joe Bob's.
YITS,
Cliff
Last Edited by on Mar 10, 2007 6:17 PM
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Ballrollers
708 posts
Mar 10, 2007
6:01 PM
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No kidding, Scott? You have never seen a 30 ft. break that didn't separate from the flyers? They didn't separate because on this day, with this kit, there were no "flyers"....no birds that flew through the break.....none that didn't roll. You said, "Heck how deep does a bird have to roll to separate from the birds that do not roll and are flying away from the birds rolling anyway?...It makes no sense." Well, my friend, once you have seen a really good kit of rollers, this will make perfect sense to you, and you will change your mind about the separation thing being an important criteria for judging depth of roll. Actually, on that particular day, Clay told us that he had taken three or four deep birds out of the kit. I suppose had he left them in, we would have seen 15 or 16 go thirty feet, then three or four SEPARATE from these when rolling to the greater depths....which was my original point. The distraction created by the awesome performance of these few birds would have taken away from the amazing performance of the entire kit. Apparently, Clay felt the same way...
YITS,
Cliff
Last Edited by on Mar 10, 2007 6:14 PM
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motherlodelofts
1546 posts
Mar 10, 2007
7:54 PM
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Cliff , yes I do believe that it was a good kit and a good fly.
I saw Mel judge,he was a decent judge and a win under him would be a good undeniable win.
I'm not going to even try and comment on that fly as I wasn't there, but the type of breaks that you are decribing , are waterfallish, kind of like a huge funnel, and I have seen it many many time's, when you get simutanious breaks they "will" seperate.
Cliff you may want to go back and re read my posts on this thread , just to clear your head.
Cliff there isn't much I havn't seen in the hundred plus non local kits that I have judged for major flys and the hundreds of others kits that I have stood under, and the countless tweny bird kits I have stood under in my own backyard which have spoken for themselfs in the major flys.
When you are talking to Kenny , you are talking to a flyer that has placed in the W/C finals top ten no less than 3 times , the closest to the gold being a second place , your sarcasim to us just makes you look silly.
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 10, 2007 8:15 PM
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fhtfire
827 posts
Mar 10, 2007
8:13 PM
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David,
Well to me the club flys are kind of like training or practice. I had been flying the birds on and off due to preds and weather. This was the first club fly of the year and it was kind of a feel it out kind of think. I paid very close attention to the bird and actually set the time at 14 min mark when he really started getting sloppy at the end of the rolls..but the first 8 min..he was looking good....so I know that it was out of shape..to be honest..the rest of the kit kind of ran out of gas too..>LOL!! I wanted to kind of see how he flew..with the feed cut a little and being out of shape...I pulled him down....and added a little hen from the B-team that was rolling real good...but I felt that the B-team was not waiting for her or setting up for her...so I moved her to the A-team...and the first fly out...she started pulling the pin at the 8 minute mark...it was like she realized that she could pull the chain and roll deep and hard and the kit would break with her and still be hovering above her...so to sum it up..the club flies are the time you kind of examine the kit to see how they are working together and having a judge that can maybe see something that you are not...or confirm that they are seeing the same thing.
Basically...it is just like firefighting...I would rather,,,mess up in a training drill then on the real deal..same with the birds...I would rather see what happens with certain birds on the club flies...it just helps you make better choiced before the big flies...make sense I hope.
Rock and ROLL
Paul
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Ballrollers
710 posts
Mar 10, 2007
8:53 PM
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Scott,
I appreciate you advice and your contribution (you too, Kenny)based on your years of experience and sucess in the sport. I mean that sincerely....no sarcasm. Scott, your post above (March 9 6:41) is solid advice. It's just that when you guys make condescending statements like, "Once you have seen a good kit of rollers...." or "Instead of just watching them, start studying them and ask questions..." that sounds about as silly as the sarcasm you get in return. I hope you can see the difference in your two styles of communication. One is effective...one is not....
YITS,
Cliff
Last Edited by on Mar 10, 2007 8:54 PM
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motherlodelofts
1547 posts
Mar 10, 2007
10:26 PM
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Cliff , you are right , maybe we both need to work harder at "not" busting each others balls.
Although , my post on studying kits instead of just watching was in no way meant as a slam, it is something that we have to learn to do to be successful with a team of birds.
I certainly didn't learn it on my own, and it took quite a few years to learn to see and read a team , and I am still learning, Jack Meyers was that man for me as far as a mentor, and still is , he just flat out knows good pigeons , and what a truely good team is , and he won't accept less or make excuses for less, and that is what he passed on to me,guys like him are invaluable.
And to be honest , there are very few that I trust when it come's to an honest evalution of a team that I havn't seen , JoeBob would be one of those, and that is among a handful , and when I mean a hand full thats all I mean , not that there aren't more out there.
Most just get caught up in the moment if there is alot going on, do you know what I am trying to say here ?
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 10, 2007 10:51 PM
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Flyin Hawaiian
98 posts
Mar 11, 2007
6:14 AM
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The entire kit dropped 30 ft. then continued forward...no outbirds. Sometimes the kit would collect itself, hovering after a 20-30 ft. break, adjust their direction 45 degrees on the horizontal, then all break again without much forward progress in the flight path at all.
Cliff,
In the fall of 04 when I flew that 1100 pt kit under a judge who I feel has excellent credentials (Ron Phelps) My kit was similar to what you described Clay's kit to be. The neat thing is it happened on fly day which is a bonus with over 20 guys in the yard. Getting back to your statement above a sensitive kit will collect and wait upon its kit mates.Those are kit pigeons with good kit sense. They are what Heine would term as team players always working together for the utimate outcome as a team. I have been to Monty's numerous times since the early 70's and have seen my share of 20 bird breaks in unison with nothing to guage the seperation by. Now remind you back than we flew by the old N.W International rules which didn't have a cap on how many birds you could fly. As a side note Joe Houghton won the 1975 International with a 53 bird kit LOL! Monty usally flew between 25 to 35 birds back in the day. This particular kit flown in 1977 at monty's consisted of 23 birds. They are amoung a very few kits that I have witnessed that would roll on the fly without any setup just dump it and they seemed to like to do it down wind. All a guy could see was the birds flying away on the horizon and than let it go. It couldn't be denied that they were deep and all in unison. I agree with your assessment on a kit that works together in large turns. Its difficult at best to discern the seperation because of the cohesiveness of the kit depth from top to bottom and not having a starting point to guage by. This whole case scenario can be summed up by each one of us standing under a quality kit of birds that were on the day that none of us had a chance to preview and they cut loose several 18 bird breaks and each one of us writing down the color the depth and the placement of the bird within the turn that was just viewed. Those that think they can come on over I need some help badly. I'll bet that most of the guys on this list can't tell you who thier lead pigeons are in thier kits if you were to go thier and ask. Lets go a little deeper LOL. Have you ever taken a test in which you were to remember what you saw in a picture that was shown to you for 20 seconds and write down what the objects you actutally saw in the picture? How many could you write down if thier were 20 objects in the picture possible? Maybe this would be a good exercise for a prerequisite to becoming a judge LOL!! You guys are full of yourselves it can't be done. If it can I'll by you a ticket to visit and you can prove that one to me here at my place. Thier are those who have the ability to have a photographic mind and they are few and far between but to say that you can count past 7 on a solid break and no the differrence between all the birds depth and speed in a break of 18 thats BS at best. The key to all of this maddnes is to fly a kit in which you can't be denied. I have yet to hear a guy on a fly give me an assessment on a turn and say yeah did you see the red marked one at the center left that was going 20 ft but a good H style and the blue next to it that hit a 30ft roll but was a high X winger and the dunn that was to the back left that came out of the exit funny and the lavendar that had a hiccup flying next to the black marked at the center right. Oh yeah and they were at approximately would you say at least 500 ft in the air or was that 700 ft. LOL JMHO
Ivan
No ball bustin here just alot of truth to what you guys are saying can be done.
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Ballrollers
711 posts
Mar 11, 2007
7:27 AM
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Scott,
Less ball bustin, between us? Man, I'am all for that! I might even remove your name from that hangin' tree out back during the convention!! LOL! No doubt about it, though....a mentor in the sport is a key element.....and missing for so many average roller men. I also agree that an honest evaluation of a team is hard to come by. And you should also know that Joe Bob listed you as number on on his list of potential judges for the World Cup, so I believe the feeling is mutual, my friend. That speaks volumes as far as I am concerned.....
YITS,
Cliff
Last Edited by on Mar 11, 2007 7:28 AM
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Ballrollers
712 posts
Mar 11, 2007
7:34 AM
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Ivan,
Wow, waht a post! Right on target, accross the board, as usual, buddy! Our readers would do well to re-read and digest your post completely. I know that I did....You described, exactly, the performance and the point about separation that I was trying to report and make for Kenny and Scott...only better! I especially like those last couple of lines of yours!! LOL! Thanks for the contribution to the discussion.....
YITS,
Cliff
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motherlodelofts
1548 posts
Mar 11, 2007
7:50 AM
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" I have yet to hear a guy on a fly give me an assessment on a turn and say yeah did you see the red marked one at the center left that was going 20 ft but a good H style and the blue next to it that hit a 30ft roll but was a high X winger and the dunn that was to the back left that came out of the exit funny and the lavendar that had a hiccup flying next to the black marked at the center right. "
Ivan , if I'm honed in a break the way I should be ,even in a five bird break, I couldn't tell you the color of most the birds within the break (unless one sticks out).
But those faults are like a line of cars going down the hiway , and one has a crooked rim.
You know as well as I do it all boils down as "humanly" possible.
As for this seperation thing , if you have a super huge break, even if it is a solid one , there aint much left standing , and in some instances there may be nothing standing , so therefore there is nothing left to seperate from , a little common sence does play in here LOL
But this is not the case with the bulk of breaks including large breaks , not by any means.
I'm not sure how we went from seperation used to insure proper depth to this.
I might had that a kit with several true 18 bird breaks are rare , something is allways off, normaly the first of many being the timing ,or are you suggesting to just give it all no matter what so that the silly scores are easy to get , and everyones egos are properly fed ?
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 11, 2007 8:24 AM
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Flyin Hawaiian
99 posts
Mar 11, 2007
9:57 AM
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Hey Scotty,
I'm not suggesting anything of the sort I'm just a little lost for understanding as to how you would assess 15 to 18 birds in a break and be able to pick out the right amount to sort the chaff from the wheat in the turn. As rididulous as both of our analogy's maybe the truth be known is what you said "humanly possible" which lies in the same category as SUBJECTIVE!! It all boils down to what a guy see's and that in itself is your opinion. I'm not talking about the obvious culls because I guarrantee you this that alot of those culls have slipped by even the best of judges in a large turn. Human nature will pick up the deepest and fastest bird in a turn that is what our eyes are drawn to. Just as it is in any major sport where its team oriented we all follow the ball we don't look to the guys that are opening up holes for the tailback to squeeze through or the forwards in basketball boxing out for position same applies to most of us with our kits its just human nature. Scott you really don't know me well to even suggest that I would want the silly high score I am a stickler for quality and depth if I wasn't I would have gotten laughed out of this area back when Bruce Cooper and
Monty Nieble Joe Houghton and Bill Schrieber and Lloyd Thompson flew just to name a few. Out birds here were not allowed so you can see thier were some strigent rules. I have been mentored through this sport by some highly acclaimed legends of the sport and I payed my dues and listened well. The names above speak for themselves and much of what we fly today originated by those inviduals so I say to you would you suggest that I am looking for a token and the easy way out NOT!
Ivan
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Ballrollers
713 posts
Mar 11, 2007
10:15 AM
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Of course you're not, Ivan....and neither is anybody else. You are right on with your comments, again....Seems like you are inside my head!!!!
YITS,
Cliff
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motherlodelofts
1549 posts
Mar 11, 2007
11:16 AM
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Ivan , I wasn't suggesting that you were doing anything , I was just asking a question.
As for the focus going on the deepest, fastest bird , I try not to let my focus shift to just one small segment.
And yes it can be a struggle and it is easy to let your focus lock in on such, I work on not doing it though when I'm judging , there are other time's for that.
As for
(how you would assess 15 to 18 birds in a break and be able to pick out the right amount to sort the chaff from the wheat in the turn.)
If such a break was 100 0/0 clean you would know it and is undeniable , if it isn't then you do your best to assess it (as humanly possisible), sorry I just refuse to give it knowing that it wasn't there.
Ivan, I guess that we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this.
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 11, 2007 11:58 AM
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motherlodelofts
1550 posts
Mar 11, 2007
11:25 AM
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....Seems like you are inside my head!!!!
YITS,
Cliff
I think that they used to give lobotomy's for that LOL LOL
Scott
PS just couldn't help it
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Ballrollers
714 posts
Mar 11, 2007
12:05 PM
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Ivan,
You said something very interesting, "There are only a few kits that would roll on the fly without any setup, just dump it....". One of the most amazing things to me about this particular kit of Clays's was that very type of performance. They would be flying on the straight part of the figure eight: downwind, crosswind, upwind, didn't matter, then bam, just dump it; the whole kit; no set up! That was the first time I had witnessed a kit do that...and haven't seen one since! Now I recognize what a truly unique team and performance I had witnessed.
YITS.
Cliff
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motherlodelofts
1551 posts
Mar 11, 2007
1:01 PM
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Cliff, I find that as far as qaulity goes and qaulity of breaks that my best flys are when they don't set up for the breaks, I generaly will only get this with a mature team , as long as it is a good team of coarse.
My birds do not do well qaulity wise with too slow of a wing beat either , of coarse too fast is detrimental also.
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 11, 2007 1:02 PM
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Flyin Hawaiian
100 posts
Mar 11, 2007
3:25 PM
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Cliff,
Ironically the kit I flew in the aforementioned did that very same thing too. Pete kaufman which has been over to my house many occasions was the first guy that noticed that when I flew that kit on that day. I believe that when a kit is in ultra harmony with one another and the balance of nutrition is on the mark and the weather is favorable not saying roller weather but just favorable this is when you see that kind of cohesiveness and zone. Very similar to a basketball player that is a pure shooter he feels it and can't explain it but he is definitely in a zone. Ever wake up somedays and feel a surge of energy and everthing comes together that you have set up to do. Yeah I think this is how those kits may feel on those rare days. Kinda like driving down the road and never hitting all the green lights but on this day they were all green LOL!!
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George Ruiz
202 posts
Mar 11, 2007
3:30 PM
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Cliff I have seen many kits in in the Riverside area (C.P.R.C.) that did not need to set up to break.
One of the main reasons I got rid of my old school Pensom
family was that they could not do that .
Cliff if you ever come out to Cali. try to go see Higgins Ibara, Smith, Lorenzo,R. Duncan, and thier crew.
George
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Ballrollers
715 posts
Mar 12, 2007
10:19 AM
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George,
I would sure enough love to do that sometime! Sounds like a good opportunity to see some great rollers. How far apart are those lofts? What about the closest major airport? You never know! I think you guys are right on the money.....it takes a mature team...with the right experience together......and the right chemistry....on the right day...
YITS,
Cliff
Last Edited by on Mar 12, 2007 10:21 AM
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