MILO
251 posts
Mar 15, 2007
9:18 AM
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Jay.
Don't know about your post man. Judging rollers will always be controversial because of the subjectivity of the process itself, and what each individual is capable of seeing. It is not easy. Not at all. As for the favoritism, I have to say I have never seen it. I think most judges I have seen and come into contact with on flys do their very best. Are there crappy judges? Of course. Is it done out of favoritism or malice? No. Not in my opinion. I have a full load just like you my friend, and an immense battle to fight with fog and BOP's. Do I think I have the birds to mop up the competition? Yes. But until I do it, I will have to remain quiet...LOL
c
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1225 posts
Mar 15, 2007
10:04 AM
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To ALL judges: Thanks for the tireless effort, verbal abuse and lost wages you guys endure on behalf of the roller pigeon hobby!
Each one of you who is currently a judge or who was in the past, you are an unsung hero in my book! Keep up the good work!
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1072 posts
Mar 15, 2007
10:25 AM
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Jay. If you thought I was whining and complaining you were wrong.All I am doing is trying to learn how the Judges see things.Who knows maybe someday I will be Honored to have Scott,Joe,and some others stop by and judge my rollers someday.I know any judge that judges a lot of different kits can surly become good at seperating the good from the bad.I would at least like to have an idea what to look for.
As for your job being a moderator.Maybe you ought to reread the posting policy.You don't have any more right to post a provocative post than anyone else.I just felt it was a little beneath you to do so.David
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Otis
9 posts
Mar 15, 2007
1:17 PM
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Scott, Brian, Quick question? I think Paul raised a decent question that wasn't really answered-where does it state in the rules, the direction of exit in a roll? It does state scoring is at the descretion of the judge whom deems the birds scorable when "rolling" adequately, not exiting. I'm not saying I am in favor of such performance, I won't stand for it either. I just sense we may be adding personal standards into a set group of rules or the wording should be included into the rules that exist. If they aren't there how do you add the undefined -exit of the roll? Don't you think? I believe this is the lack of consistancy in the written rules Cliff just spoke about. I have a feeling all judges are not on the same page based on just this little factoid! I also agree that judges are underappreciated, underpaid(LOL) and the backbone of competition rollers. I am totally in favor of anything that raises the level of quality of our rollers!
I share this in the spirit and cooperation of gaining invaluable knowledge and understanding of the world's most prolific aerial performance bird! Otis
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maxspin
74 posts
Mar 15, 2007
1:38 PM
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Otis,
I can answer this one.
Rule 8) of the World Cup
Integrity. The judge shall NOT score anything that does not meet his standard for adequate quality and depth or duration of performance.
If you want a better understanding of why coming out backwards does not meet the standard you can look at the NBRC 11 bird rules. See bulit (2). Birds coming out backwards are not in a straight line.
Judging Standards
The bird must turn over backwards, spinning quickly like a ball.
The bird must fall vertically with the appearance of a straight line from start to finish.
The bird should finish cleanly and not tail ride or plate roll at the end.
Loose, Slow, Sloppy, and/or plate rollers should not be scored.
Birds that roll less than 10 ft. should not be scored.
The bird must roll from the kit and must return to the kit before it can be scored again. If the bird rolls prior to rejoining the kit it does not score and is considered an out bird until it rejoins the kit.
Hope that helps
Keith
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J_Star
823 posts
Mar 15, 2007
1:47 PM
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Scott,
You said “Now granted some judges aren't very good, but for the vast majority I can assure you that they are doing the best that they know how.”
That is exactly what I am honing on. If judges come in all colors, then why don’t the rest just accept their scoring no matter what? The judge will never please everybody and he does his best to do his job as for some judges it might not be the case. So be it…If that type of judge happens to be judging your bird that season then just accept it and make the competition for fun because a person will never have an honest chance amongst that judge’s friends. It has no bearing on whether I compete or not…it is just fairness and common sense.
But when you see a score way higher than the rest in any particular competition whether it is local or regional and the talk go rampant about those birds with the highest score were not of exceptional quality, then the talk begins and roomers become endless.
We are not discussing how the judges should perform their job for my input to be baseless; rather, the discussion is about the fairness of giving the multiplier to the quality of the birds. How could this sport be fair to all competing if there is no standard or guide line given to judges to perform their job on equal grounds? Therefore, competing is nothing more but for fun and chance to get together with other fanciers but in many cases pride is involved and heated argument spur because of that scratched pride. You, Joe and Brian try to do your best when judging to be fair because of the quality of personality you guys have but some others don’t have the quality you guys enjoy and that is that.
Look at our police force, the majority of the police are excellent officers and I would say 99% are commanded for their great performance, but 1% is bad and those are the ones that give the rest of the police force a black eye every time something happen.
I understand that the final round is judged under one judge and everybody will fall under the same guide lines of that judge but most of the crap that goes on is not in the final round. Rather, during the elimination rounds and people feel that they have been eliminated because of the judging practice of certain judge and the outcome could have been different if it was a different judge. We can deny it or not talk about but that’s what happen and causes a black eye to this sport.
Scott, Joe and Brian, I like the description of how you score the birds and the method you follow, then why not put a guide line together and pass it through to senior members of the NBRC and gather acceptance to draft a guide line for the rest of the judges to follow and possibly in the near future all judges will adhere to? Take if for whatever its worth.
Milo, I agree with you. I never seen it either but I get tired of hearing the crap when I get together with other fanciers and that the kind stuff they talk about. How this judge was not fair and how that kept me from winning...
Jay
Last Edited by on Mar 15, 2007 2:00 PM
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Missouri-Flyer
356 posts
Mar 15, 2007
2:15 PM
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To bad there couldn't be a single judge that traveled in the USA and judged every kit that was enetered. I know that is asking to much, but if a single guy judged every kit, then the true scores would be laid out for all to see..As stated, there is no way humanly possible for kits to be judged fairly when some are sloppy and others are to hard core!
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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motherlodelofts
1562 posts
Mar 15, 2007
2:54 PM
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Otis , exiting the roll properly is part of the roll , I don't know of any flyer worth his salt, either here in the US or anywhere else that doesn't consider a bird that isn't capable of exiting the roll properly a cull.
Scott
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motherlodelofts
1564 posts
Mar 15, 2007
4:07 PM
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Jay you are trying to make something out of nothing, as for the silly score , if I had a good fly and some judge made a mockery out of it by scoreing it stupid like some of the scores that you see , I would be pissed to no end.
Generaly you only see that stuff in the regional flys though , we don't bring those type of judges into this region , or at least try not to .
Scott
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fhtfire
834 posts
Mar 15, 2007
4:31 PM
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AMEN SCOTT!!!
I just want to make it clear...by no means do I think that coming out backwards is a good roll....I was just saying or trying to say..that some of the rules should be a little more clear of have some examples....so ALL the judges can be on the same page.....a bird that comes out backward most of the time is a cull....I am just trying to get some stuff cleared up that I have been told...and some clarification on how some judges come up with there 1-2.0 multipliers.....
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Velo99
978 posts
Mar 15, 2007
5:05 PM
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Scott,
What if a H pattern bird,fast velocity,comes out of a 17` 8 1/2 inch roll at a 5 degree angle to the kit,with his wings at 12 degrees left of horzontal, spreads 1,2,and 3 flights 3/8ths of an inch,shoot the finger with his left foot,spits,and the goes back to the kit,does the roll count?
Could you tell me what kind of quality mulitplier you would give a bird like that?
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V99
Flippin`The Bird!
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
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motherlodelofts
1566 posts
Mar 15, 2007
5:15 PM
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No Kenny, but I would try to trade my tom cat for it, he cusses like a drunken sailor and farts like a fat man.
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 15, 2007 5:17 PM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1073 posts
Mar 15, 2007
5:16 PM
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Kenny.You know that roll wouldn't count.That glitch in the roll when it spit wouldn't allow it to score.David
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motherlodelofts
1567 posts
Mar 15, 2007
5:20 PM
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I might also add once more , it is rare that the top kits can't be put in the right order without even keeping score on them.
Scott
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motherlodelofts
1568 posts
Mar 15, 2007
5:46 PM
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Jerry , that is what the regional flys are for, they determine who thier top kits are for the finals, one judge then judges.
This holds true for both the National fly and W/C.
Scott
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fhtfire
835 posts
Mar 15, 2007
8:36 PM
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Brian,
Looking forward to meeting you in person for the W/C....We should all get together the first night and have a nice dinner...my treat.....before you get burned out...LOL!! You should see some nice kits out here. Again..it is an honor to have you be out judge..
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1074 posts
Mar 16, 2007
2:53 AM
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Paul. I can guarantee you fellows are in for a treat.Just please don't allow Brian to pick up any bad habits from the West while he is there.LOL.
Brian.Thanks for your post.At least it is something to gauge our rollers by.At least you are bold enough to explain how you do it.There is only a handful of Judges on this forum that judges a lot of kits and I was hoping they would tell us how they broke things down as they see it.I am sure everyone is different but it would allow everyone interested to sort of find the middle of the road.
Maybe they were waiting on you to be the first.LOL.David
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Gregg
43 posts
Mar 16, 2007
6:22 AM
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Hey Guys,
Been running my butt off. Brian, you ought to be one rich sob by now, we knew Jessica didn't keep you for your good looks.LOL.
Have really enjoyed what little of this thread that I have had the time to read. I agree totally with Scott, that given honest men, twenty kits and all view same, scoring would not be necessary to place the top five kits and perhaps put all in order. Oh yeah, those honest men have to all be experienced roller fanciers.
Reference 2.0. I accept that as perfection. Probably woould not get to award that until I die and go to judge God's kit. Scott, wait until you see the scores He is going to get from me.LOL.
Great thread and really neat to see this hashed out like this, has to be helping a lot of people understand a bit more about the intricacies of judging. Am going to come back and read every word when the time becomes available.
Gregg.
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rollerpigeon1963
156 posts
Mar 16, 2007
7:52 PM
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Gregg,
My wife knows how to spend money. She is better at it when I'm gone judging somewhere LOL LOL. In the construction trade you make good money because one day you might need it. Its feast or famine. But for the past few years it has been pretty good.
There is a lot of good roller guys on here that judge and I'm proud of all of them. I wish they would post more but I know how they feel at times with the other people and there ideas.
Hey Gregg best of luck this year and hope you have many rewards in the nestbowls.
Your buddy Brian Middaugh
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