Missouri-Flyer
373 posts
Mar 19, 2007
3:04 PM
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David,
Why would you want to fly the same birds twice. If your answer is that you wouldn't, but that you just want to get this cleared up, then why keep hounding, and not just let them fix the unseen problem..Just me thinking outloud!
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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motherlodelofts
1598 posts
Mar 19, 2007
3:11 PM
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Cliff , it wasn't tradition, that wouldn't fly , this whole thing is really simple, up until 2 flys ago we flew 100 percent by W/C rules , a change was made for "fly" rules and that was all anybody was looking at , this little detail just got missed, but the policy remained.
No Dave, not bending the rules as I know policy, the policy never changed , if it had it would read spell out that the same birds could or could not be flown.
If a kit went up with what I knew were the same birds, or even one bird being the same , I would DQ you in a quick minute.
Scott
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REEDM
11 posts
Mar 19, 2007
3:13 PM
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David,
The rules that you keep referring to only pertain to flying the kit at the time of competition. They are not the complete Fly rules. There is in writing in NBRC Bulletins, and I will find them when I get home, explaining that each person can only enter a maximum of two kits. If flying two 20s or two 11s than they have to be entirely different birds. I know it is in print because when I took over as RD for my region last year I did the research. If you base your assumptions on the rules of the actual flys only, then you could enter 100 kits if you wanted to. That is not the case. It is in the bulletins. Look in you July-August 06 or one before or one after. It will be in the bulletin that has an entry form for you to send to your RD if you want to fly. It will explain everything. I hate not being able to look myself right now. Do any of you NBRC members have your bulletins available right now?
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Anyone can fly a good kit of rollers by accident,
great rollermen can fly a good kit on fly day.
Mitch
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Ballrollers
733 posts
Mar 19, 2007
3:14 PM
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I understand your frustration, David. It's like, "What other possiblities are there?" I wouldn't obsesse about it, like Jerry, said. Let the system work. It's a work in progress, like anything, and we have come a long way....and we still have work to do, thightening up the rules and the performance standards. I would love to see a constructive thread discussing the glitches that we can find in both.
YITS,
Cliff
Last Edited by on Mar 19, 2007 3:18 PM
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motherlodelofts
1599 posts
Mar 19, 2007
3:19 PM
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Exactly Mitch , find where it says that you can fly two kits and you should find it there.
Like you said , all the rules cover on the NBRC site is fly rule's, this should be stated in the fly rules though I would sure think
Scott
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1094 posts
Mar 19, 2007
3:59 PM
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Mitch.If it so clearly states this then why is the President,the EC committee even bothering with this?
Why wasn't this included in the proposed changes when it was voted on for the New fly rules.Like I said before I don't know what was in effect prior to me joining the NBRC and voting on this.
Scott says he would DQ me in a heartbeat.I am saying he is wrong according to the present rules.He can't make up a rule as he goes along.If he would do this with this rule what would he do with any other he didn't agree with.In other words he is saying anything in the New Rules he don't like he can do whatever he wants.Is this the way the NBRC judging system works?
Yes I believe in cut and dried.No Gray areas.Rules are rules and everyone has to abide by them.I firmly believe in Trust and Ethics but first there has to be some guideline.
Someone else asked why I would want to fly the same birds in both kits. Why to have a better chance of winning.Isn't that what Competion is? To win?
I have no problem letting it go just quit telling me it is in the policy or rules without some proof.David
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motherlodelofts
1601 posts
Mar 19, 2007
4:03 PM
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Dave , do you slam your head on the kitchen counter top just for the fun of it or what ? LOL LOL
Dave , show me where in the rules that you "can" fly the same birds ? you can't , so I would use the same policy that we have flown under year after year after year, that is my point Dave, now if it said that you "can" use the same , which means the rules were actualy changed , and I said "no" that would be considered bending the rules.
It is kinda hard to bend something that isn't there don't ya think.
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 19, 2007 4:11 PM
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REEDM
13 posts
Mar 19, 2007
4:09 PM
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Dave, I am a member of the EC. We are not discussing this right now. It was just brought up the other day on this site. The rules you voted on only pertained to the fly itself talking about time-in, time out, how many birds, stuff like that. I will find the whole rules. They do exist. Cliff ball is new to the Fly coordinator position and Juan was only looking at the website. I will find them and make sure the whole rules get posted on the site and there will no longer be any confusion. Have you even looked in your bulletin from July-August? The NBRC website is just a website and it was just recently changed. It still has glitches to work out. Read the Bulletin and let me know if I am wrong.
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Great rollers come from great rollermen,
great rollermen fly in competitions.
Mitch
Last Edited by on Mar 19, 2007 4:10 PM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1095 posts
Mar 19, 2007
4:18 PM
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Scott.You know how I am.If I think I am right I will argue the point utill I am proven right or wrong.LOL
I had my wife dig out my NBRC Bulletins and reread everything.My back went out on me last week and I can't move around very good yet.
Anyway there is nothing mentioned in it about flying different birds.Just that the fly would be goverened by the official NBRC Rules which makes no mention of it either.It does say that each participant should review and familiarize with the rules as to avoid confusion once the competition commences.
I think a lot that hasn't done this will be rereading the rules for this fall.And to think I was closing in on an edge and not losing any fingers.LOL. David
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1096 posts
Mar 19, 2007
4:21 PM
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Mitch.Please tell me how a newcomer is suppose to learn the rules if they are not available to read? Apparently you have not familiarized yourself with the present rules.David
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REEDM
14 posts
Mar 19, 2007
4:30 PM
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Dave,
You become a member of the NBRC and read the bulletins. If you have questions you ask your RD. The website is a work in progress. It is not complete. I will look through my bulletins when I get home in about an hour to make sure it is there and I will let you know which one(s) the rules are in. I want to say again, the website is not complete. Tell me, based on the website, who won the 2005 NBRC 20 bird fly? It is not on there so does that mean that we did not have a Fall Fly in 2005?
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Anyone can fly a good kit of rollers by accident,
Mitch
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1097 posts
Mar 19, 2007
4:53 PM
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mitch.I did just that.I became a member of the NBRC and read the bulletins.And have been all evening.I don't know how else to explain it to you.But heck if you are a Regional Director and on the EC and you don't know the rules how is anyone like me suppose to? Makes a fellow wonder about other things.
As for the website we won't even go there.Seldom do I try to find anything on the new site.It takes sombody with more smarts than me to figure it out.David
Last Edited by on Mar 19, 2007 4:58 PM
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motherlodelofts
1602 posts
Mar 19, 2007
5:39 PM
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Dave , who said anything about not knowing the rules, we know the rules Dave , this isn't our first rodeo
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fhtfire
847 posts
Mar 19, 2007
6:15 PM
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As much as I agree with Scott and the old rule...the fact of the matter is...if the rule is not in writing...then the rule does not exsist...Period. If the rule is not added before this fall fly...then a person could fly two kits exactly the same. You can't go by "the way it used to be" or "everybody knows"...unless it is in policy or a rule...then a governing body does not have a leg to stand on.
In any competition...if it is not listed then it can't be enforced....that is for anything...sports, driving, building houses and the list goes on. If it is not stated then it can be challenged....now you could use the "old status quo ante".....which means basically this is the way it has always been....but because there were two flys after the rule change..AND AN OFFICIAL RuLE CHANGE... then that would not really hold up...but if it was the first fly after the rule change and something happened...you could most definatly use the "status Quo" card.
I would hate to be in the situation..but if it did happen...the judge can tell the flyer to pound sand...but without a "written rule"...and the rules were changed from W/C rules and the fact that there has been two flys since the rules change...then the way I see it...not in writing...then not a rule...But I do agree...this rule needs to be added and needs to be put in before the fall fly.
I just can't imagine how that rule could have slipped through the cracks...that rule is huge....I mean...your A-team flops on Friday....and you get a second change to let them fly again...I would take it..LOL...I have had my birds eat shit one day...and fly them a day later and they are on fire....
Just putting my logic into it...not disrespect to anybody.
Trust me...when you are in a Union and there is not a rule and this comes up...Status Quo can save you or hurt you...we one a unfairlabor practice because we showed proof that it was the way it has always been...but then we lost a "status Quo" because although we showed evidence of a past rule...there was a break in service of the way it has always been rule and we lost.
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on Mar 19, 2007 6:17 PM
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REEDM
15 posts
Mar 19, 2007
6:28 PM
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I do know the rules and so does Scott, however I was wrong in that they are not in the NBRC bulletins the way I thought. I just went through my bulletins and in every July-August it discusses the rules. I was mistaken when I thought the bulletin stated that you could enter two kits of the same made up of entirely different birds or one kit of each. It only says “The NBRC will sanction an 11 Bird Fly and 20 Bird Fly --- two separate Champion events…Each member will be eligible to enter two kits if so choosing, electing to fly two of the same or one of each.” I now agree that it is not as black and white as it could be. I guess one could misinterpret what they are saying when they say “two kits”. Two kits to me and most people, means two kits, not the same kit twice, hell if I think it means that then if I fly my kit of 20 young birds five days in a row then I have 5 kits, or if I fly them twice a day then I have 10 kits, right? Wow I just went from having 20 young birds to 200, that is awesome. LOL Now that you or whom ever it was that brought it up brought it up, I am sure that we the EC will discuss it and get it reworded so it will be clear to everyone and published on the new website. That does not change the fact that you still can't enter the same birds twice in the same event.
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Great rollers come from great rollermen,
great rollermen fly in competitions.
Anyone can fly a good kit of rollers by accident,
great rollermen can fly a good kit on fly day.
Mitch
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1098 posts
Mar 19, 2007
7:12 PM
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Mitch.You said:
I am sure that we the EC will discuss it and get it reworded so it will be clear to everyone and published on the new website. That does not change the fact that you still can't enter the same birds twice in the same event.
How can the EC reword an Official Set of Rules that was voted on by the membership without having the membership revote on it? Fact is it isn't a rule yet.
Any rule change is suppose to be voted on by the membership unless I am wrong.David
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REEDM
16 posts
Mar 19, 2007
8:03 PM
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Article 14 dated 16 May 2006 of the constitution and By-Laws give the EC the right to discuss and vote on certain changes without having to get a vote by the general membership. If in the discussion phase of this the EC feels it necessary to send it to the membership then you will get to cast a vote. Just incase it does not I suggest you contact your RD and discuss with him your opinion on the matter and he can bring it up during our discussion.
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Mitch
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motherlodelofts
1605 posts
Mar 19, 2007
9:25 PM
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Try flying the same birds twice and see what happens, the only one's that are confused are you new flyers , everyone else knows that you can't do it , there has been no changes from this rule , so in my book it still stands , unless something is written that says other wise, which won't happen.
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 19, 2007 9:29 PM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1099 posts
Mar 20, 2007
3:49 AM
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Scott. You really don't understand the rules do you? This really shocks me.And I am surprised that Mitch dosn't either being a regional and on the EC also.
Man how do you figure that just us newcomers are the only ones that don't ubderstand the rules.
I am going to say this one more time.
THIS WAS NEVER AN NBRC RULE IN EITHER FLY.
When the NBRC quit using the WC rules and adopted there own set of rules,submited to the membership,& voted on by the membership this was not in the NEW RULES.
I keep trying to get this point across but it just seems like you are not listing to what is because you keep thinking you know what was.The NBRC adopted their own set of fly rules.Anything in the past that NBRC done has no bearing on the Present Rules.
Paul's post said it better than anything I have said.He is always good at explaining things.
If you are so set against flying the same birds in a second kit why do you feel it is alright to fly the same birds if you fly one 20 bird and one 11 bird kit.Even tho it is two seperate flys it is just as much unfair in one as it is in the other.How do you condone flying 20 birds in the 20 bird fly then taking 11 of the best birds from that kit and fly them in the 11 bird fly? Maybe Mitch can explain that better according to his KIT theory.Same kit,same birds but no one is allowed to fly the same birds on 2 different times in the 11 bird fly.
Scott,You yourself said that there never was any rule written to say you couldn't fly the same in the 20 or 11 bird fly.Everyone just assumed that since it was 2 seperate flys it was O.K. to do it.
So my question is how can you say it is alright to do it with the 20 bird fly and 11 bird fly and turn around and say it is not alright to do it if someone is flying 2 11 bird flys?
Myself I think it should be different birds whichever fly you are flying and now that this is brought out in the open(by accident I might add)maybe things will be set right.David
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1100 posts
Mar 20, 2007
3:59 AM
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Mitch.You are right about the EC discussing and voting without the membership.I am glad this was voted in.It will sure speed up the process of getting changes made.I am sure the EC will come to the right decision if all the EC is aware of the problem. David
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Velo99
990 posts
Mar 20, 2007
4:59 AM
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Here`s what I would see happening if this were to be pushed a little.
One could take the most consistent hard rolling four or five birds from one kit and add them to the other kit and bolster the score and get a second shot at qualifying or winning a competetion.
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V99
Flippin`The Bird!
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1102 posts
Mar 20, 2007
5:11 AM
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Kenny.Exactly.And it is being used already by allowing the same birds to be taken from the 20 bird kit and reflying them in the 11 bird fly.
Allowed in one but not the other.Scott found a loophole in the rules to allow it in the 20 & 11 bird flys.I found the same loophole to allow someone to fly the same in the 11 bird.LOL.
I am glad I am not a Judge or on the EC.What a hassle it has to be.David
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motherlodelofts
1608 posts
Mar 20, 2007
7:40 AM
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Whoa Dave , loophole ? I found nothing , the powers that be determined this along time ago , and again, because they are considered two seperate flys, which they are.
Dave , I don't think that you understand , the flyer community is just that, a community.
Like I said , try flying the same birds with any experianced flyer as a judge , the results will be the same as that rule was "never" changed.
Beating this dead horse is a mute point though , it just plain got missed in the transition , you will see it in print before the next fly.
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 20, 2007 7:42 AM
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REEDM
18 posts
Mar 20, 2007
9:13 AM
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David,
This is right out of the July-August NBRC Bulletins from at least the last three years and it has not changed. “The NBRC will sanction an 11 Bird Fly and 20 Bird Fly --- two separate Champion events…Each member will be eligible to enter two kits if so choosing, electing to fly two of the same or one of each.” You did not vote on this part, this part never changed. I know that you think you are right because you are able to twist this meaning to suit your mission.
I am not a pigeon showman but have been to some pigeon shows and have received some entry books. Most shows have at least these four categories; old cock, old hen; young cock, young hen. Some will then have best baldhead, best badge etc.. Now in most shows you can enter as many birds as you want to pay for. Lets use the best old cock and best baldhead. These are two separate events therefore you can use the same bird if he happens to be an old baldhead cock. What you can’t do is use your old cock and enter him in the old cock category twice. What are you going to do, put him in the first cage and then after the judge has handled him, move him to the other end when the judge is not looking? If your old cock is the best, then is the judge supposed to give you first and second place? Hell no!
I hate the term common sense, because there are too many people that do not have it for it to be common. I am done trying to explain the obvious. By the time the Fall Fly entry forms are out, I am sure this rule that is printed every year but does not exist because it is not on the internet, will be dummied down and put on the website so that everyone, not just the ones with common sense, will understand. Until then I am done with this topic.
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Mitch
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1103 posts
Mar 20, 2007
9:13 AM
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Whoa Scott.In your own words you said it was never written.If you are so sure you are right then please put this to rest by proving where it is found in the NBRC rules.Since the WC never had an 11 bird fly there rules can't count.If you can do that I will be the first to say I was wrong.
Of course it better be in the rules before the Fall Fly this year.That has nothing to do with now.David
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Missouri-Flyer
380 posts
Mar 20, 2007
9:20 AM
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Dave,
not to jump to anyones side here, but I dont believe the rule will be needed until the fly date, so why waste so much time worrying about it now? I could see if the fly was days or a week away, and you wanted instant clarification, then that is understandable, but since the fly is months away, does it really matter now?
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1104 posts
Mar 20, 2007
9:20 AM
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Mitch.So what does that have to do with being able to fly the same birds in the 20 and the 11 bird fly but not if you are flying both in the 11?
As I told Scott.Prove me wrong.I am sure the President and the EC is not going to change the rules just because of me.Who do you think you are kidding.
But if you can't prove it just cut and run.David
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1105 posts
Mar 20, 2007
9:38 AM
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Jerry.To prove a point that some of the RDs,EC's and Judges are not familiar with the New Rules. I remember back when NBRC was adopting their own rules that some of the Judges said they would either quit judging or not abide by some of the rules if they were passed.Well they passed and it looks like some never studied them.Several of the judges are still judging some things by the WC rules in the NBRC Fall Fly.Why do you think Cliff didn't want this brought up on other list? Don't make waves? Makes me wonder how many others are in the dark.
Sure if everything can be hush hush and get the rules changed before fall everything is O.K.
But what if Scott hadn't brought it up and I hadn't responded would anything be changed or would everyone just sit back and say as long as nobody says anything we will let it go? David
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dave
298 posts
Mar 20, 2007
9:40 AM
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That's it, no more 11 bird fly for our region. We will only fly the 20 now since we can't use the same birds to fly the 11. Wanted to support the 11 bird fly but heck, I rather have more qualifiers for the 20.
My take is that if it's two different events then you can use the same birds. It's like saying you can't use the same crew chiefs for a different race cause you already used them. You have to have different crew chiefs every time you have a different race.
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1106 posts
Mar 20, 2007
10:06 AM
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Dave.What if they said either fly could use the same birds?
To me it would be much simplier to go by the rules that are already in place.You can fly same birds in either fly.Then there is never any doubt that a judge let anyone slip by and he would never have to check any birds bands.Sounds simple to me.Even makes common sense.LOL.David
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motherlodelofts
1609 posts
Mar 20, 2007
10:10 AM
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LOL dave , without the 20 bird flyers being able to take a second shot with thier best would sure eliminate some competition , hmmm maybe that David is one sly dog LOL.
Scott
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1107 posts
Mar 20, 2007
10:59 AM
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Scott.Would narrow the odds down some wouldn't it.LOL.
Actually in all honesty untill you mentioned that you were allowed to fly the same birds in the 20 and 11 bird kits but not the 11 I had always assumed that each kit was made up of different birds.You just got me to thinking.LOL. David
Last Edited by on Mar 20, 2007 11:04 AM
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Ballrollers
734 posts
Mar 20, 2007
12:38 PM
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Guys,
Apparrently when the Fly Rule Committee proposed the new changes a couple years ago, they issued "Fly Policies and Procedures" to cover some of the details of the organization of the competitions, as well as the specific Fly Rules. I feel certain that is what Scott and Mitch and some of the others are referring to, that recall this issue being dealt with in a written policy. They were published in the old NBRC website, but not in the new one. I am trying to get a copy of those to clear this up.
Last Edited by on Mar 20, 2007 12:41 PM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1108 posts
Mar 20, 2007
12:47 PM
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Cliff.It shouldn't be to hard to get a copy of it from the NBRC bulletin it was published in.Remember not everyone has a computer where they could get online and read it.David
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1272 posts
Mar 20, 2007
1:49 PM
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David, the simplicity of the association with being able to fly the same birds in one 20 bird kit and one 11 bird kit is quite simple. As noted, they are two different events....and they are judged on different criteria, using a different scoring method. The birds are scrutinized differently between the two events, one is a team event, one is an individual event. The provision for the use of the same birds, should a participant elect to, is to give the flyer an opportunity to participate in the other event, which in turn helps to promote that event. If we were cornered into only flying birds in one kit in one event, you would have many regions electing to fly only one event, and that event would be the 20 bird events and the 11 bird event would go by the way side due to not enough participation. It is tough enough for many people just to muster enough quality pigeons for the team event, which whether anyone one likes it or not, is the main event of the FF. By allowing a participant to utilize some of his better quality spinners for an event where by they will be judged solely on their individual performance, the overall FF participation is increased, and if a flyer elects, his birds can be judged on two totally different levels. That is why it is OKAY to fly some of the same birds from a team event in an individual event.
I'll use Dave's racing analogy. If there was a race weekend that consisted of oval racing as well as quarter-mile drag racing, the same car could be used to participate in both events because the criteria of performance is totally different from one another, yet still based on the performance of the vehicle.
The issue about not flying the same birds is simply not to allow a flyer to gain an unfair advantage in the same event by flying the same birds in a second team of the same event. It really is cut and dry. I know you will fall back on the "it isn't written", and I will at this moment agree, but that really is the way it has been and I do recall seeing it in writing. It is a simple fix, and a very justifiable one at that.
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Ballrollers
735 posts
Mar 20, 2007
2:52 PM
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Excellent post, Brian....kinda boils it all down to basic common sense. Now all we have to do is make sure that the Policies and Procedures, and Fly Rules handle this adequately.
YITS,
Cliff
Last Edited by on Mar 20, 2007 3:10 PM
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Ballrollers
736 posts
Mar 20, 2007
2:59 PM
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Jerry,
It matters now, because if the Fly Rules need ammended, it takes time to get men to agree on a proposal, as you can imagine. Then it has to be printed in the Bulletin and the flyers of prior competitions have to vote on them in order to approve them. I am fairly certain that Mitch is incorrect. Article 14, May '06 gives the EC the right to make certain types of decisions to expedite the business of the organization. The Fly Rules were exempted from that ruling. All proposals for Fly Rule changes must be ratified by flyers who have participated in any previous competition.
YITS,
Cliff
Last Edited by on Mar 20, 2007 3:10 PM
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Ballrollers
737 posts
Mar 20, 2007
3:04 PM
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David,
You are certainly correct in that there are RDs, EC members, judges (and Fly Directors) who do not have a complete command of all the rules and policies. In fact, I'd say, most of us...Name one organization or governing body where any officer does know them all for certain. That is why they need to be in print and available to all, of course, as you have said. But keep in mind that most of these guys also serve or have served in the past, as World Cup RDs and judges, and the rules are somewhat different. Heck, most of the flyers are not even sure where one organization leaves off and the other begins! LOL!
YITS,
Cliff
Last Edited by on Mar 20, 2007 3:09 PM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1109 posts
Mar 20, 2007
3:13 PM
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Brian.I understand all that.I have no problem with it being that way.
The problem I have is the NBRC decided to set up their own rules.Be completly seperate from the WC.Now the EC and the Fly rule commitee spent a whole year beating the rules back and forth and finally decided on what is in place now.A new set of rules for the 20 bird fly and a New set of rules for the 11 bird fly.
Why if this is the way it has always been was it not included in the New Rules.You would surely think that after a year of debates on revamping the whole fly program this would have been discussed.
Since I have been a member of the NBRC I have never heard or read anything about it.I am a flyer in competion so shouldn't I have know about this before I ever competed.Why study the rules if they are not the rules.Why say the fly will be goverened by the Offical New Rules if there is hidden rules.
If I am not mistaken Mitch said in one of his post that he remembers this being discussed when the EC was deciding on the changes.
Did it just slip thru the cracks or was it decided to just let it slide.
Another question is are there any more of this type of thing that once was but never carried over to the new rules.
I am sure all these questions can be answered as surely they have minutes of the meetings.
Can you or anyone else imagine if this had happened to a newcomer on his first fly? Maybe all this will save a lot of hassle later on.And I am sure quite a few have started looking closer at the rules since this started.Nothing like a refresher course.LOL. David
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1110 posts
Mar 20, 2007
3:17 PM
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Cliff. This is what I have been saying all along.Some are bringing WC rules into play in the NBRC flys.I am just glad we started discussing this before it really happened.David
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Ballrollers
738 posts
Mar 20, 2007
5:10 PM
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David,
You make a good point, though, as to why do we have "Policies and Procedures" aside from "Fly Rules". As we can see in this case, the "Policies and Procedures" have been inadvertently omitted from publication as part of the Fly Rules, which should not have happened; and probably did because this is the way things had always been done. They need to be considered one and the same, however, as far as I am concerned.
There is no EC conspiracy to "hide" or "not divulge" rules, David. I am surprised to see you suggest such a thing...maybe I misunderstand your meanings. (Have you been having dinner with Scott, and Kenny?! LOL!) I'll bite my tongue for that remark....actually, Scott has been very helpful in these discussions, as have most all of you, and I want to acknowlege that.
You know ultimately, this falls in my lap, as Fly Director. I should have been made aware of the duplicity of rules and policies and published both last Fall. Of course I was not informed, and therein lies the problem. All that I can do is to assure you that it won't happen this year. Thanks for bringing this to my attention guys...I know that there are other gray areas, as well....
YITS,
Cliff
Last Edited by on Mar 20, 2007 5:26 PM
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motherlodelofts
1613 posts
Mar 20, 2007
5:58 PM
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Cliff , it isn't your fault , hell there is no fault, most of us have been flying this for a while , and we have also spent our time as RDs and judges and we are well aware of what changes were made and weren't made , and on top of that we all fly local and state flys useing the same rules.
The changes were , simple, it only changed the time in rule and tried to close a grey area as far as hawk attacks and weather problems splitting a kit.
On the 11 they omited what should be scored and left it a little more open for judges.
THATS IT
I'm with you though in that it all needs to be lumped together so that new flyers know prior to a judge showing up on thier door step, never in a million years would Dave or anyone else be allowed to fly the same birds in two 11 bird kits or two twenty bird kits by an experianced flyer and or judge.
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 20, 2007 5:59 PM
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Ballrollers
740 posts
Mar 20, 2007
6:07 PM
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Uh oh! I think I heard Szabatura hit the deck again!! LOL!
Thanks for the support, Scott. I take responsibility for it, so that I can also take responsibility for correcting it. I recall the rules changes as you characterized them, as a few minor changes to clean up some gray areas, not "a year long debate revamping the whole fly program" as it has been described here.
YITS,
Cliff
Last Edited by on Mar 20, 2007 6:09 PM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1111 posts
Mar 20, 2007
6:37 PM
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Cliff.You said:
as a few minor changes to clean up some gray areas, not "a year long debate revamping the whole fly program" as it has been described here.
YITS,
Cliff
Now I want you to read the memo from the Fly Director in the March-April 2005 bulletin and tell me he didn't say that after nearly a year of debates the results are published to be voted on.Now can I believe that or is that just something else to be considered.David
Last Edited by on Mar 20, 2007 6:38 PM
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Ballrollers
743 posts
Mar 20, 2007
6:55 PM
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You're a good man, David. If you say, that is what he said, that is good enough for me, I don't have to look it up. So, then, I stand corrected. I should have known better. My "recollection" is that the final proposals and changes were fairly minor. That's what I was refering to. I should know better than to stand on my recollections! LOL! And Lord only knows what they had to go through to get there! I was not a part of it, so I can't really speak to the process with any real accuracy. Who was the Fly Director, then, Alex?? (Also keep in mind that the Fly Director was not a member of the NBRC Executive Committee back then, and didn't have a vote. Can you believe it? That was changed this year as one of the first orders of business after the Tennessee fiasco!)
YITS,
Cliff
Last Edited by on Mar 20, 2007 7:04 PM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1112 posts
Mar 20, 2007
7:24 PM
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Cliff.I understand.It comes from getting old.LOL. I myself thought I voted on the new fly rules but after going back and reading everything I wasn't allowed to vote as I hadn't flown yet.
I hope you all understand where I am coming from in all of this.I am trying to speak for all newcomers and asking how we are suppose to know these things and you have Scott busting my chops by saying just try something like this with us veteran flyers and judges.This is the kind of stuff that really shows what some of the Judges are like.
I can also say that it don't pay to ask questions on some things because you will never get a straight answer.Been there and done that.Same as this thread.I doubt if we ever learn what the rules really were the past 2 years.I have been a member of the NBRC for 2 years and I never once seen the other part of the rules you are talking about.And I would have went into my third fly not seeing it.So Cliff you are not the only Fly Director that wasn't aware of the problem.
I am done now.I will just sit back and see what and how things transpire.David
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motherlodelofts
1615 posts
Mar 20, 2007
7:29 PM
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Okie Dokey Dave sheeze LOL
Last Edited by on Mar 20, 2007 7:30 PM
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Ballrollers
744 posts
Mar 20, 2007
7:29 PM
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David,
Oh, I can guarantee that we will all know what the Policies and Procedures are (and have been since the vote). It was, and still is, a valid question...one that got the interest of the President of the NBRC. So, again, I thank you for bringing it up. I have requested the information from many sources, and expect it to be here in a day or so. I'll post them when I have them. I think that Scott was just saying that he would judge based on the rules as he knows them to be, on which, in fact, he is correct.He just couldn't lay his hands on the written item....but it does exist. The last thing any flyer wants to hear is that a judge is going to judge the way HE wants to, regardless of the rules....Seems like you have already experienced something like that, if I recall. (There I go again.)....I hope that any flyer would feel that it is appropriate to alert me to any kind of talk like that from anyone scoring his birds.
YITS,
Cliff
PS. You said, "It don't pay to ask questions on some things because you will never get a straight answer." I can tell you for certain that there are no such questions with regard to the NBRC National Championship Fly....not as long as I am Fly Director....we WILL get an answer to any and all questions from our flyers.
Last Edited by on Mar 20, 2007 7:44 PM
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fhtfire
852 posts
Mar 20, 2007
7:30 PM
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Dave,
It is good that you brought it up....if you did not...it was just a matter of time before it was challenged.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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motherlodelofts
1616 posts
Mar 20, 2007
7:50 PM
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"The last thing any flyer wants to hear is that a judge is going to judge the way HE wants to, regardless of the rules....Seems like you have already experienced something like that, if I recall. (There I go again.)..'
Dave , I heard rumor of this , or maybe you brought it up , please don't tell me that it was because he wouldn't score some cull that couldn't come out of the roll correctly , or for that matter raising a stink over something that you "think" should have been scored.
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 20, 2007 8:00 PM
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