Milo, Amazing! I just came in from the loft mad as hell because the 10 birds I have that make up my A-team look like crap and have looked that way for a month now. I'm starting to doubt if I can ever raise a good roller. I have some proven pairs I'm breeding from this year though so I hope things will be better. I have been in rollers a year and a half and have yet to put a full kit together. I haven't been able to breed enough birds that could even simulate a decent roll to put a full kit together. Lately this hobby has been more frustration than anything else and there's plenty of moments when I wonder why in the hell I perservere. If this breeding season doesn't produce some better stuff I might be posting the same question as you did today.
Sorry for your loss. Sorry I wasn't more encouraging but think of it this way - what else would you do with all that spare time?
Good luck! ---------- Darin Olson Checkerboard Lofts
Milo, I know how you feel. The past 5 years of relentless predator attacks have had me thinking the same thoughts from time to time. It's hard to keep a positive attitude when all of the hard work and training amounts to almost nothing. I've already lost a group of 5 birds from my holdover kit, among them were two of the very best. Maybe a kit of Orientals to test the skies first?
Hang in there Milo. A good reason not to quit is you love the hobby. Another good reason is you're a good loft manager and you will recover.
I am in the same boat. Lost 16 from my A-Team not more than three weeks ago. I ain't going to score much (hell I am even flying a couple of culls), but I will be putting something up. Some will even be 2007 birds.
I agree with George,its a setback,I still don't have it together after three overflys last year.A buddy of mine, Don Lopes,told me,Todd theres no mangoes on the trees this year,your gonna see some losses.Well, he was right ,Racers and rollers.I think some type of el nino thing.I personally do not fly my conditioned birds without wind or rain to hold them down.Old birds or youngsters,mostly youngsters,racers and parlors are the only pigeons out on clear days,period.It has taken me along time to discipline myself and there have been some close calls.Hope this helps...Aloha,Todd
Milo u can't give them up just yet u have waaaaay to much to do buddy so knock the dirt off your pants patch your black eye so u can see again because the skies are still pretty baby so keep going it is tough u can make it
p.s. take a few days off it will do you some good
Last Edited by on Apr 11, 2007 9:16 PM
Milo, send me a box and I'll send you my C team of late hatches that are starting to spin. Home them in and you'll have something to fly that will at least roll.
I have been dealing with the Falcon since 1982, I have lost over a hundred birds a year every year since, except for last year when I lock down my kits. I am trying to train them as we speak and hopefully I will get them all up soon. I have raised pigeon's most of my life and I am not going to let a Falcon stop me from doing what I like.
Milo You sure seem like you are on a downer alright. All i can say is hang on in there buddy if you got rid of the birds what are you gonna do with yourself ? Lots of people have experienced what you are going through but are still getting their kits up. Worse things happen at sea is a famous saying over here. Hope you dont quit as we all go through downers. 1 year i lost 14 young to the same hawk would you believe and i only bred 25 that year i felt exacly the same as your feeling like Whats the point. But guess what i am still here and i hope you will be. Like i said to Trevstar good luck must be round the corner.
Regards W@YNE UK ---------- Patience Perseverance Perfection =====================================
Milo, My birds were in lockdown for 5 months,Nov-Mar.I did try to fly several times in that period but lost at least a bird almost every time I did fly them.April 1st it was like some body turned off the bop switch.Today pulled some early landers and an outflier from the hen kit and put all the hens and cocks together and put them up.25 of them.They gave me the best show I've seen yet.Better than even other guys birds I've seen but that's more because the guys that have flown birds for me to see have not had their kits in shape for various reasons or because bops were hassling their birds when I paid them a visit.The feeling I had today seeing those birds perform(I think)was worth all the crap I've put up with all winter from the bops and weather.Never lost a whole kit but I hope Icould manage to lift the flaps and fly again if I did.Sorry for your loss. Salud a las Palomas, Kel.
I have lost 3 A-teams to date....the last one was back in December....That team was REALLY good...it killed me...and it was a Cooper that chased them up and then the clouds rolled in. Anyway...I feel your pain....the good thing was...I had a B and young bird team that filled the void...I try and take the positive out of everything...and I just set another goal..and the goal was this....I just lost my A-team....that i worked hard on....now I am going to set my sites on bringing my B-team and young bird team up to that level....and if I could recover from my loss and put up another team...then I will feel like I have accomplished something.
I really do not have the pred problem that so many other people have....I have not seen a cooper in month and the falcons...I have none...During the Winter and migration...I have them here and there...but one less I have learned...is to FILL EVERY PERCH before I end the breeding season...Don't give up....keep on trying....fly some homers first or get some orientals or high fliers and fly them first...then fly your rollers..I know guys that are doing this with success.
It sucks but we keep on keeping on , but the fact is there are some locations that make it simply impossible , only you can decide ,and if that is the case you have to move . I've been dealing with problems here also, now I see the doves moving in which means easy days ahead , then on top of it a youngster that didn't come in last night made it back this evening, I thought a cooper came through while I was in the loft.
Scott PS if you do you know where that hen belongs
Hey Milo, Quit your whining. You guys that are that fragile need to realize that this has been a problem for the last 30 years and it has become more intensified in the last 5 years. Take some of the guys in southern California they have been putting upt with this problem since the early 80's same can apply to the guys here in the Portland Oregon area it runs rampant all over North America. This sport has new rules and is not for the faint of heart. Try and find better fly times beat at thier own game. I have been changing up fly times for the last 4 years and have had some success and other times not but I'm not going to bail just because of it. I feel your pain as I have had the same thing happen to me last year except it wasn't my A team but instead my entire first round of youngsters less 4. Hang in thier Bro keep plodding along and don't let them beat you. We don't have enough hardcore flyers as it is and to loose one such as you would just be throwing in the towel. Keep fighting we're all behind you. Darin call me when you get a chance. Thiers a solution an often times in your situation it can be corrected. Ivan
Hey Milo, If it's any consolation, I have a pair of relentless falcons less than 2 miles from me that insist on making thier presence known. They just add another component to the challenge of flying a good kit, but I'm smarter than them just like you are of the raptors in your area. I've heard of master flyers that only start flying a little over a month before a competiton. This saves your better birds and lessens the losses.In our haste and incessant desire to see something in the air we often become too regular in our flying habits. Your regional is May 20th and I'm sure you've been flying for over two months-is that really necessary? I think not for holdovers that know the routine. Your raptors have developed a strict diet of rollers just when the Jays, Robins and doves have become more plentiful. You've managed to heighten your own stress. Try flying in the evenings with your holdovers but never more than two days in a row. Do all you can to make them fly the time yet stay in your face. And above all things, fly smarter and cherish the outwitting of the bastards. Were all in the same boat these days, its like bad weather, if its not hitting you right now just wait. Your tougher and smarter than to quit right now! Unfortunately, competing with rollers these days requires, grit, cunning, determination, stealth, perseverance and the courage of 5 Rocky's. "We must accept finite disappointment, but we must never lose infinite hope." MLK --- Otis!!!
p.s My regional starts May 26th, I'll start flying my holdovers April 16th! I'm too busy with my breeders right now anyway!
Last Edited by on Apr 12, 2007 8:28 AM
Hey Milo, Thiers all the land of aloha LOL. You need to get ahold of Rick Schoening Tier is a legal way that this can be done but its gonna cost a mint and qutie fraankly roller guys are cheap. Hang in thier I'm with ya all the way Ivan
Ivan/Otis Both good posts , Ivan you are right , this isn't a game for the faint of heart , last year I lost the bulk of my old bird team in a weather induced over fly coupled with poor management. I was just getting it rebuilt into a good solid team from my prior loss 2 years earlier when a fog bank rolled in on top of me. I havn't seen a good team in my backyard in over a year , this year I have a decent team back finaly. You gotta fly smart , I have seen guys that just keep flying in the worst of conditions intil they have nothing left once the skys clear. My heaviest losses are Oct - Nov during the migration , from Nov - March are some of my safest fly times as is the end of April - sept. If I breed early I can't get them out until about right now without them getting hammered , so I don't put them out unless I know that it is reasonably safe. I have allways flown year round but this next year I will lock them down during the Fall migration as that is when I am most likely to get hammered. One of my favorite fly times when there is danger is the crack of dawn before anything is even flying ,I'm talking flying in the half dark. Dave Mosley from the UK is an old Tippler flyer , he flys's at the last bit of light and lands them with lights to avoid the Falcon.
Milo , Brent was up here yesterday looking at houses , he isn't out , just moving for a better fly area and he is being picky as far as it also being the right place to fly from.
That's sure a tough one, Milo...sorry to hear it. We have lost a couple good competition roller men here in North Carolina this year...one a mink cleaned out his breeder loft, and the other due to personal health problems. I can only empathize with you guys who have to deal with that kind of predation. Around here they are more of a nuisance factor than a serious threat to partcipation in the sport. I have said it a million times...location is everything...Good luck, buddy. YITS, Cliff
Last Edited by on Apr 12, 2007 9:39 AM
Milo, quit the hob-knobbin' for sympathy, you have three choices and only three choices. 1. Move 2. Lock the good ones up. 3. Fly and deal with it. (then consider #1).
I live about 10 miles west of Denver, CO, near the foothills of the Rocky Mountains. After locking down from November to January due to frequent Coopers Hawk attacks, I decided I had to fly my late 06 birds more or they would never develop. However, I then lost one or several birds every few times I flew them. I witnessed some of the attacks, and lost even more to overflies when they would panic, scatter and fly straight away to who knows where.
I prefer to fly earlier during the day, rather than later, because the weather is more stable, and the risk of losing birds to weather-related overflies is less. Weather can change here fast at times with substantial wind and unforcasted storms rolling in. If birds get lost, they have more light hours to find their way back that same day.
However, Danny Horner advised me to try flying late in the day, as it would be more likely that the Hawk would have already fed on something earlier. Although I have to keep a closer eye on the weather, I have had better results with this during the problem months.
I know some have it worse than I do and I don't know if this could help as much with falcons. Perhaps you have already tried it. It isn't a 100% solution for me but it helps reduce losses during the worst of the Hawk season. If I do have an attack or spot a hawk, I won't fly for a few days, hoping it'll move on.
Hang in there.
Last Edited by on Apr 12, 2007 4:02 PM
I also realized that my outdoor aviary and training cages with visible pigeons were probably BOP magnets, so now I don't open them for access until after that day's fly.
Last Edited by on Apr 12, 2007 4:10 PM
Not grumpy at all Nick. I know Milo and where he lives and it is roller flying hell. We can all give hugs and sing carols of sympathizing, but in the end he has three choices and those choices are very clear. As you can tell I don't beat around the bush. When you come to a brick wall, you have three logical choices. Either find a way around it, climb over it or turn around and go home.
milo i think you are the man to beat in the w/c.when you can get all your ducks in arow.just a little set back for you and i hate it to.you quit i do not think so.a man is not what he is on the outside it is what is in the inside. what if tiger woods would have quit ever time he had a bad round.? if you quit your rollers will lose there chance to show what thay can do. hardtime
Milo you have everyones attention now it is time to move on we feel for you lets get this thing back on the right track show us what you are made of jelly or jam make the choice show us roller men you have good temperment and strong character because i know u put a lot of strong character in your birds so get it up one more time baby
ps. you have to be there to see my disaster dawg (smile)
Last Edited by on Apr 12, 2007 7:25 PM
Milo, I live just off the Illinois River, a major migratory route here in the midwest. I finally got smart last year and locked down. Got the itch too bad in early March and had to start flying birds. I got hammered. I lost the best that I had. Why do we do it? Because, inspite of all of the frustration, I am after 37 years of rollers, still tickled that another of my little bronze tchecks started turning on like her sister did. And as long as I have one bird spinning then I know that I will have something to get up in the morning to go watch. Gregg.
Flew the A-team again this afternoon and 4 of the birds didn't come back. They may have been lost to an overfly because they went way up and through the clouds. The 6 that did make it back trickled in individually.
I've got 17 new squeaks in the kit box from my first round and a bunch of hope that this year will be the year when it starts to come together.
Don't give up Milo, I have always believed that there has got to be a solution to nearly every problem. It may take some deep thinking and ingenuity to find it but it's there. ---------- Darin Olson Checkerboard Lofts
Hey Milo, How about raising and flying a kit of those Catalonian Tumblers before you fly your rollers?They're supposed to be able to outfly the preds and tire them out.That guy down in Arizona has some for sale. ---------- Kelly
Milo, if you can manage the extra space for the kit box, I'd seriously consider a cull kit, especially for your circumstances. They really do help cut the losses. Last year half or more of the birds the falcon got from me were from the cull kit, saved a bunch of eventual good ones in the process.
A kit of culls would make the most sense for obvious reasons, but I have been told by a few, that Oriental Rollers can discourage most preds by outflying them! If I ever get room I would like to have a few! Just an extra option maybe!
Maybe, I could cross my BRs,parlors and some ORs and.........just kidding!Hee Hee
Last Edited by on Apr 12, 2007 11:00 PM
I don't really buy into the "outflying" them concept that seems to surround the ORs, Doneks, etc with the impression that they will tired out or persuade the predators to seek other prey. Maybe with coopers I could see that as a possibility, but not with the falcons which are what plague many of us. I've seen my rollers out fly/manuever the falcons day after day, sometimes the chasing will last for well over an hour until the very last bird makes it down, and even then see the falcon make a desperate attempt at that last bird even right down to the loft. I have one hen that in her first year, for some reason, was the primary target for a resident falcon. Every time she would go after this hen and not let up. This hen had an uncanny ability to out manuever this falcon which otherwise was a razor deadly predator. One day in particular she chased this hen from probably close to 800-plus feet up three times in an hour. There were many days when they would leave empty handed, but would be back the next day looking for another try, and often would succeed no matter how long it took. I suspect in an area where they would have plenty of choices of prey, that some could find it easier to succeed with something else, but I don't feel that most people with falcon problems reside in areas saturated with other prey options. One thing that makes falcons different than most other BOP is they tend to be sport killers. It often appears to as much of a game to them as it is a matter of life or death. This would also lead me to believe that some appear to welcome a challenge. Every time they succeed at that challenge it further increases their ability to hunt successfully using another tactic.
Last Edited by on Apr 12, 2007 11:19 PM
Brian, Killing because they can is one of the proven survival techniques associated with some BOP's. The other factor is the self survival aspect of not taking on anything that they cannot handle. A peri is larger than our rollers and more powerful. But put them onto a flock of large homer size pigeons in outstanding physical condition and the challenge becomes a bit too much for them and they know it. Try holding onto a well conditioned racing homer after you are use to handling rollers. A homer slap across your head will be something that you will probably remember. Imagine the impact that a similar sized falcon gets from that same slap. Not saying they can't take them, just that our birds are the ideal size for most falcons and accipiters. Ivan hit it on the head, a choice filet. They are also just large enough to provide a full days nutrition for the average BoP. In fact most coopers are well satisfied for a couple of days. The gos though will be back the next day. Gregg.
This year is going to be different for me...In the past I culled what didnt amount to my standards within a year, but this year I am doing as stated, and not culling a single bird intenionally...Those that dont posess the kind of traits found in a kitbox will be housed in another kitbox to fly on days when I think it is to dangerous to fly the good birds...Heck, you never know, there may even be a few decent birds come out of those culls later on...Before, I would have done away with them and didnt give them a chance in the long run...
Gregg, I know what you are saying but you are using human logic. You have to use BOP logic. Peris are sport killers. Ask Milo about the time he watched one kill six pigeons for the fun of it on the boardwalk. Falcons primary prey for eons of time has been ducks. The Pharoahs of Eygpt used Falcons to hunt ducks on the Nile. Ducks are far greater in size than our pigeons. And if you think they can't handle a homer in good condition. I'll have my racer friends south of here email you their experience of this training season and how they are frustrated because they have lost over half their race team to the falcons which have learned to get them right after release.
Does it make sense to have a cull kit and attract BOP to your area as the local pigeon restaurant? I'd question that line of thinking. ---------- Darin Olson Checkerboard Lofts
Darin, if you are getting hit damn near every time you let out a kit, does it matter if you are "attracting" them or "supplementing" them? Falcons can see for more than 20 miles in decent whether while aloft.
The fittest racing pigeon in the world is no match for the peregrine it doesnt even have to grab the pigeon they can just spike them then turn round and grab them they hit so hard its unreal.
It seems to me the cull kit will lure them in and keep them in your area. I am with Darin on this. I also know that you cannot out fly them, but by being aware and observant of BOP behavior you can discourage the number of attacks by flying "around" 'em.
Dave Henderson has those jackets or jerseys that basically makes them talon prof. If my attacks continue I may invest. I have used my cull box birds to bring back some overflys like Scott has done, but not to feed hawks.
I am going to try flying a kite(s) to see if that will help. It is windy here often so it will not be difficult to get the kite up.
Just thinking out loud............I spend a lot of time alone(LOL).
I watched a wildlife documentary on the TV recently. A pigeon had been fitted with a miniscule video camera and a peregrine was filmed chasing the pigeon - awesome footage. On this occasion, the pigeon escaped and I remember from the narration about the awesome speed of the peregrine. I checked out the actual figures and this is what I found:
"The peregrine is the fastest bird on record reaching horizontal cruising speeds of 65-90 kmh ( 40-55 mph) and not exceeding speeds of 105-110 kmh (65-68 mph). When stooping, the peregrine flies at much greater speeds however, varying from 160-440 kmh (99-273 mph)!
Other birds, such as pigeons, blackbirds, ducks, and pheasants, are the falcons's usual prey. Peregrines' incredible speed is the primary weapon used to kill their prey during the hunt. When they get ready to strike, they close their talons and strike the bird in a plunging dive, usually knocking the bird unconscious with a single blow. The force of the initial strike is so severe that the bird is usually killed on impact. As the victim falls through the air the falcon circles back and picks its prey out of the air with its claws. If the bird survives the initial blow, the Peregrine will break its neck with a quick strike of its powerful beak to the bird’s spine."
BMC You are right on the money. Ducks I have witnessed down along the colomubia slough area and they the Perry's can pack em out. Now keep in mind thier are several differrent species and the Pacific peeler is a Stealth compared to the other common ones that we see so often. It is predominantly resides along the western states from Canada to mexico. I have had one of these large pacific peelers in on my kit a time or two and beleive you me they don't miss. I have also witnessed a pair and its youngster teaching it to hunt at my expense and believe you me when they make the blow you can hear every bone in the pigeons body crush at impact and than they drop the bait for the youngster to grab and make this curdling call that gives you the feeling of someone dragging thier fingernails across the chalk board!! Darin when you get hit everyday you have to come up with some kind of plan to at least give you some satisfaction. I had the same thought process similar to driving off a cooper when he takes a bird down to the ground so it doesn't get to eat it. I have since changed my thinking when it comes to Perry's. If he gets one of your good birds than you basically have one choice of action. Lock down for a few days or weeks. Than you go back out to fly your kit in hopes he's gone and moved through and low and behold thier he is. Now which one would you rather him get a cull to satisfy him or keep flying your good stock and become frustrated at the same time?? Once they find your address I don't care what you do thier going to be back unless they have been relocated somehow. The coopers are a menace more than any thing else but the perry's are a differrent animal all together because they take them up high and the odd desperate one will come in low not as often but will when hungry. One of the reason why our birds are so appealing to them is thier challenge they present when they are on the hunt in pursuit. I think this gives them the drive of apetite sort of like going hard for the kill and the rewards that constitute the intestinal juices to flow. I'll wager that if you had one that was presentable to them but dead they would choose to hunt instead! Kind of like a domesticated snake in captivity. Live mouse not dead one LOL! Anyways this is a subject that will always be a thorn in all of our sides but we must join together to come up with a solution or ideas that can help rid the problem. Ivan
