W@yne
510 posts
Jun 19, 2007
12:12 PM
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Guys
Its time to move away from Pensom and start to take your bird to the modern era.
Yes Bill Pensom has been dead 39 years things have changed for the better not for the worse.
I laugh when i hear people looking up in the bible of Bill Pensom for answers all the time.
Over in England Bill Pensoms name never gets mentioned because we have took our roller hobby to a new generation.
The only time i hear his name mentioned is on this site lol.
Bill Pensom was a legend in his own right you could say he was the godfather of rollers over there when he was around.
Over here we have fliers i look up to more now that can talk the talk and walk the walk and i know you guys have also.
Bill Pensoms book is a guide and a guide only.
If Bill Pensom was alive today i know for sure he would of worded that book differently in a lot of places so why do people hold on to the shirt tails of that book all the time.
I do admire Bill Pensom for what he has done for rollers over there but its time to move with the times guys.
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Regards
W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection
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Last Edited by on Jun 19, 2007 12:23 PM
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W@yne
511 posts
Jun 19, 2007
12:34 PM
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Milo
That book was published in 1958 probably written over 50 years ago.
I do agree there is a lack of literature around today. The younger generation and newbies are crying out for a updated book on par and detailed to the modern era as the Pensom book was.
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Regards
W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection
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Last Edited by on Jun 19, 2007 12:44 PM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1413 posts
Jun 19, 2007
12:59 PM
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Most people who truly want to learn, need only visit a place like this and read the archives. A book written in todays terms won't do much good. It is mostly a singular opinion. Places like here a person can filter through several opinions on a subject and draw their own conclusion.
Pensom probably was a very noble roller man who I'm sure was well ahead of his time. Today is very much different as the general roller landscape has been altered and become more diverse than it was 50 years ago. I see people who think in terms of the past, tend to always be chasing something cloaked in excuses, proclaiming a higher authority. Maybe they are just looking for meaning in their lives, using the past to fill a void.
I say whatever makes a person happy and fulfills his dreams is the correct path to take. But there are multiple paths and don't be surprised that I or someone else will not choose that same path, putting some people at odds with one another over the perception of a pigeon.
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W@yne
514 posts
Jun 19, 2007
1:11 PM
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A book written in today's terms won't do much good. It is mostly a singular opinion. Places like here a person can filter through several opinions on a subject and draw their own conclusion.
Brian
I disagree not everyone is computer literate.
Although Tony's site is number 1 for information.
Most rollermen in England don't own computers or just don't know how to use them and i am sure there are lots of American fliers that are in the same boat For example just see how many use Tony's site probably only a handful of guys from the UK alone But there are well over a thosand fliers that have rollers.
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Regards
W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection
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Last Edited by on Jun 19, 2007 2:02 PM
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nicksiders
1792 posts
Jun 19, 2007
3:35 PM
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Oh yes......things have really changed in the Roller hobby.....Bull crap!We are not doing anything differently today then was done 50 years ago..........move up to the truth.
Nick
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Snicker Rollers
Last Edited by on Jun 19, 2007 5:33 PM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1399 posts
Jun 19, 2007
4:11 PM
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Hey W@yne, my logs indicate that there are far more who visit from the UK and Europe that read the site than post.
All are welcome and I hope they can find a friendly community here. Thanks All!
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Last Edited by on Aug 02, 2009 10:21 AM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1414 posts
Jun 19, 2007
4:53 PM
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Nicky, selection, goals and personal preferences are quite different if everything I've ever read and been told by those who were there are true.
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ROLLERMAN
131 posts
Jun 19, 2007
5:03 PM
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Wayne i have to agree with you its time to move on. Bill pensom came to this country with some of the best rollers in the world from some of the best rollerman in the world. From a country were it all started. Who would know more about a roller then some one from the uk 50 75 years ago . Yes bill pensom knew more about roller then any one in the usa, way back. But i think there a few guys in this country would give him a go for his money now. Remmber he inported the best from the best.
He became a legend and he didnt like to compete in flys not bad for a back yard flyer. I know i would rater talk to the guy who won the world fly this year then bill penson about what he knew 50 yeas ago
MY 2CENTS
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1403 posts
Jun 19, 2007
9:19 PM
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HAHAHA, I see who some winners were in the past...lets see Pensom or ???, hmmmm LMAO! Keep it REAL!
Pensom probably wrote more original things about the roller than any other writer up to that point and now except for perhaps David Kowalski.
Understanding something of the history (Pensom) gives us context and perspective. How many believe that the roller is on average 10% or 50% or 75% or 100% better today than it was 38 years ago?
We don't have too many things to celebrate about the roller right now, why minimize the writings and enormous influence of the most significant writer this hobby has ever had?
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Last Edited by on Aug 02, 2009 10:22 AM
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Santandercol
1187 posts
Jun 19, 2007
10:39 PM
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'Nuff crying in your soup now Ton.We all have lots to celebrate.Just do your best and enjoy these little birds.Whether we win points in the club and W/C Flies or have to lock down by October,as long as you enjoy what you're doing and not hurting anyone what more could a person want?Personally,there is plenty info for me to absorb right here.
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Kelly
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Shaun
495 posts
Jun 20, 2007
12:16 AM
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One of the reasons Pensom isn't so revered in the UK, is that there were other guys around at the same time which founded most of the strains currently in the UK. Pensom used to pick up birds here, there and everywhere, which shows there was plenty of good stock around.
Contrary to what has been suggested, most UK flyers do not have a Pensom line of rollers and the same can be said of other countries which have imported from Britain. Birds which went to the likes of Australia, Holland and South Africa were mainly based on more modern flyers - by that I mean guys who did very well in the 1970s and beyond. They had formed their own strains, which were not based on Pensom birds. George Mason, for example, has been a prolific exporter of birds, and his were based on Bill Barrett and Ollie Harris - two legends in the UK.
However, there are plenty of others in the UK who were around in Pensom's time, but who greatly outlived him, and who were still winning and influencing roller stock in the 1980s & 1990s.
So, whilst Pensom's influence is readily acknowledged in the UK, there were so many other founding 'godfathers' that he is viewed as just one of them.
Personally, I appreciate Pensom's book as reference material, but find it quite a 'dry' read. I much prefer 'Winners with Spinners' because it's based on the opinions and personal experiences of many of those legends whose birds formed so much of the stock in UK lofts today. In the 1980s, your own Rick Shoening paid an extensive visit to the UK to interview many of them. Most are dead now, but the video which Rick took is still available through the NBRC.
Shaun
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jim
8 posts
Jun 20, 2007
3:32 AM
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Hi shaun
is there any way that you can find out what the ken white family was bred out of originally brought to our country in 1971 & 1976.
thanx
our friend in the sport
riaan
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bman
295 posts
Jun 20, 2007
4:20 AM
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Better 38 years ago ? I can't answer that.But I had rollers
from 1980 thru the early 90's (showing my age now LOL)and on average the birds were much larger than today.Heck Kenny's "super chicken" would have been average size.
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Ron
Borderline lofts
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Shaun
496 posts
Jun 20, 2007
9:18 AM
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Riann, I've just been looking at an extensive interview with Ken White in the All England Roller Club 40th anniversary special addition journal, from 2004. He talks mainly about all the older guys and the fact that he knew Pensom and how he got his birds. At the tail end of the interview, Graham Dexter asks: "So what's it like flying rollers in South Africa?"
Ken reponds: "Well we're going back 40 years now but I've spent a lot of time in South Africa. Originally some people wrote to Tom Brown initially for rollers, and as Tom Brown couldn't provide the stock that would suit many, so so he passed them on to me, asking if I would come out there. They sent me all the air fares and so I went out and they sent me up to Durban where they were flying individuals up there.
Shaun
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nicksiders
1798 posts
Jun 20, 2007
1:21 PM
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Wayne,
Go ask Dave Moseley or Pete Handy if they know anything about William Pensom and what they think about him. I wouldn't call either one of them "old hat".
Nick
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Snicker Rollers
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CHANTICLEER
16 posts
Jun 20, 2007
3:09 PM
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Personally, I appreciate Pensom's book as reference material, but find it quite a 'dry' read. I much prefer 'Winners with Spinners' because it's based on the opinions and personal experiences of many of those legends whose birds formed so much of the stock in UK lofts today. In the 1980s, your own Rick Shoening paid an extensive visit to the UK to interview many of them. Most are dead now, but the video which Rick took is still available through the NBRC.
Shaun
Hi Shaun ,
is that video worth having ? ......... or is there any videos / dvds worth buying ......... if so , where / how much and who from ?
thanks
lee north east england
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IN THE LAND OF THE BLIND
THE ONE EYED MAN IS KING !!
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W@yne
518 posts
Jun 20, 2007
10:26 PM
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Nicksiders
Just for you i will ask both fliers the next time i see them who has had the most influence and who are their mentors in this Roller hobby ill also ask George Mason this Weekend as i am going round a fly up the North East of England i will ask them all when was the last time they read the Pensom book.
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Regards
W@yne UK
Lee email me
wiganrollers@yahoo.co.uk
Patience Perseverance Perfection
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Last Edited by on Jun 21, 2007 9:41 AM
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Shaun
498 posts
Jun 20, 2007
11:22 PM
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Lee, that's the only DVD I have. I ordered it through the NBRC in the US and it was sent to me from Australia! I think it was $25. As to whether it's worth having, I would say 'no' if you want to watch rollers flying, but a firm 'yes' if you want to see and hear some of the English legends.
Shaun
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Shaun
499 posts
Jun 20, 2007
11:24 PM
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Wayne and Nick, I don't know about Dave but Pete Handy's main influence, from what I've read and from what he's also told me, was an English guy named Wilf Portman.
Shaun
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jim
10 posts
Jun 21, 2007
1:33 AM
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Hi W@yne
will you please ask george mason if he has any info on the background of ken white birds (i know george mason olie harris and bob brown were all friends.
your friend in the sport
riaan
thank you shaun
could you maybe forward me the article on ken white.
riaann@tiscali.co.za
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Shaun
500 posts
Jun 21, 2007
4:56 AM
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Sorry, Riaan, but the article, which is a few pages, is in a hard copy publication, not as a file. The only thing I can think of is the AERC should have it as a computer file, as it would have been typed up before publication. They might be worth contacting.
Shaun
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Steve_uk
188 posts
Jun 21, 2007
9:46 AM
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Jim Grahem Dexters your man to ask about ken white i met ken a couple of years ago at george masons nice bloke.
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Missouri-Flyer
625 posts
Jun 21, 2007
3:40 PM
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Guys,
I may sound like a grump "or like Nick" when I say....I could care less about what the guys from across the pond have to say about anything, or the guys on this side of the pond as far as that goes...When it comes to the history of MY birds, the ONLY ones I will ask anything to will be from the 2 guys I received my birds from originally..No one else, no matter what they have done for this sport, will have any knowledge on MY birds,or any information that I may use in raising or training my birds, so having someone ask anything to someone in another country sounds...stupid...just my input..hope I dont offend anyone!
P.S...who cares about who read Pensoms book?
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
Last Edited by on Jun 21, 2007 3:41 PM
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DeepSpinLofts
951 posts
Jul 02, 2008
12:45 PM
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Personally I feel William H. Pensom was a very dedicated man of sound mind with a strong influence on the performing roller sport/hobby in the United States today.
I owe much of what I learned reading about roller pigeons to him.
May he rest in peace....
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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kopetsa
1066 posts
Jul 02, 2008
1:24 PM
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I agree with Marcus!
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Andrew
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kopetsa
1067 posts
Jul 02, 2008
1:25 PM
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" Personally I feel William H. Pensom was a very dedicated man of sound mind with a strong influence on the performing roller sport/hobby in the United States today."
And also in Canada! ;)
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Andrew
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Scott
857 posts
Jul 02, 2008
1:42 PM
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PENSOM DIED ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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W@yne
1452 posts
Jul 02, 2008
2:35 PM
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Talking to George Mason this weekend and Pensom name came to light and to Georges knowledge Pensom never flew a good kit of pigeons in the UK.
Did anyone over there see him fly great kits????
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Regards
W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection
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www.waynegrovesrollers.piczo.com
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155
588 posts
Jul 02, 2008
2:52 PM
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w@yne
your in for a long one LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
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EVILLOFT'S
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j .wanless
231 posts
Jul 02, 2008
2:57 PM
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hi all wayne you have opened the hornets nest with your post.but some very good posts should be more like it.and every one entitled to there opinion.
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Scott
858 posts
Jul 02, 2008
3:29 PM
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YES WAYNE,ACCORDIND TO SOME KIT AFTER KIT AND ALL FULL TURNS ALL ALL ROLLING WITH LITTLE HOLES IN THE MIDDLE
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Electric-man
1782 posts
Jul 02, 2008
3:37 PM
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Why are we using all caps today? Come on Scott!
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Val
"Site Moderator"
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Scott
859 posts
Jul 02, 2008
4:07 PM
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at work I do everythinlg in caps writing orders, in a hurry typing this stuff,cause I'm,well at work LOL
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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3757
800 posts
Jul 02, 2008
4:45 PM
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Wayne - This is no offense to you but that statement that George made is Bull manure in my opinion. Also, what does George mean by a good kit? There is countless evidence of the many champions flown in England by Bill Pensom. You know that he really must have done something because he is still talked about 40 years after his death. Up until 1970 his birds were the predominate birds in the lofts in America. You know my saying and it is "people would rather believe a lie than the truth." Tom Brown of Scotland had Pensom ship him birds in the early 60's and Barrett received a few also. I am not posting much due to a research project I am doing at the local University but I could not resist this one.
Last Edited by on Jul 02, 2008 6:59 PM
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George R.
862 posts
Jul 02, 2008
6:03 PM
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thanks LaRon.....
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kcfirl
450 posts
Jul 02, 2008
6:09 PM
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LaRon,
George only stated that he never saw nor knew anyone that ever saw Pesnoms fly a good kit of pigeons in England.
Do you know anyone that saw Pensome fly a good kit?
I am not really surprised because Pensom's goal was never top fly good kits, it was to look for ultimate individual performrs. Thus, I would never have expected him to fly a kit of pigeons that could come even remotely close to the kind of work rate and big breaks that the kits of pigeons we have today (on both sides of the pond) can achieve.
regards
Ken
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Scott
860 posts
Jul 02, 2008
6:54 PM
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Ken, how often do you see a great pigeon "not" breaking with it's team mates ? the only difference between birds that break together and those that don't is that the one's that break together have stability, that is unless the team is loaded with stiffs.
The true super stars always have stability, the bone heads that don't have a tendacy to fight the roll much of the time, these are called twizlers, hmmmm maybe you are on to something after all LOL
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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3757
801 posts
Jul 02, 2008
7:02 PM
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Ken - Yes, I did and I have transcipts of the interview. Also, Bill McCrae interviewed quite a few old timers also that were around when Bill was in England as well. One of the most known interviewed was Bert Goode. There are are myriad of things said about Bill and if it were not for him this country probably would not have the calibre of birds that are here today. I find it odd that people bash great individuals and forget the old saying that if you cannot say something good about someone do not say anything at all. That is my value system but I do not expect others to have the same values and I respect that.
Secondly, I understand that Pensom was after the individual spinner more than most but many do not even know that he won competitions right in Southern California for the local fly's.
Last Edited by on Jul 02, 2008 7:04 PM
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Scott
861 posts
Jul 02, 2008
7:17 PM
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LaRon, any one that dwells into his writings to any degree can see that the man was an absolute genious when comes to this breed.
But much of it also goes overs many peoples head where the context of some key issues are concerned though.
Every bird is an individual first and foremost, the goal is always to breed the highest calibre possible, and it starts with one pigeon at a time.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jul 02, 2008 7:36 PM
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3757
802 posts
Jul 02, 2008
7:23 PM
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Scott - I can agree to that 100%. Excellent post.
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PR_rollers
1348 posts
Jul 02, 2008
7:43 PM
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Pensom was a good man he would want us to move on..
I always say these words to my kid.
Live your life that the use of your life will outlive your life in other words what you gonna leave behind Legacy or Dust ..----------That's what Pensom left his legacy.I hope I be talk about 40 years after I'm dead.
Pensom may you R.I.P.
Ralph
Last Edited by on Jul 02, 2008 7:45 PM
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Scott
862 posts
Jul 02, 2008
8:59 PM
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I also think that he would be beside himself to see competition rules established soley for the "Birmingham Roller" and would get a real wood knowing that we have a fly that spans 4 Continents and 8 countries putting the BirmingHam Roller in the air where they should be,if the old timers could even imagine,I think that they would be very pleased.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Scott
863 posts
Jul 02, 2008
9:01 PM
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John, they are all branches off of the same tree, the birds that Pensom imported are now a zillion different families , many of which are like night and day.
There is no Pensom family any longer, there are only families derived from them, the same holds true for all of the old timers.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jul 02, 2008 9:06 PM
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pacos bill
51 posts
Jul 02, 2008
10:46 PM
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Hey guys I think some have under estimated the help and the love Pensom gave to this sport, there is none like him to this day, who of us will be remembered for the detitacation to the breed almost fifty years after we are dead and gone but we do have our greats who’s to say it may be Tony.
Pensom never made himself out to have the super breed or blood line, and always paid homage to the Black County Roller Men that originated the breed.
He did lean on top breeders like Leroy Smith, Stan Plona, he imported the best rollers he could get in England and put them in the hands of a master breeder like these men.
I feel his goal was to develop a blood line that would consistently reproduce top spinners not so much for glory but just for the love of the breed.
I bet Pensom would be thrilled to see what has been done with his blood line, as far as kiting and stepping up the frequency, but yet caution us not to loose the quality of the individual spinner in the process
Just one old Guys Opinion Pacos Bill
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nicksiders
2914 posts
Jul 02, 2008
11:30 PM
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I never hear talk about Bill Pensom anywhere except in this forum. I do not hear any of his writings being discussed.....nothing. In the past year or two my roller world has gotton larger and I make very few mental references to him when I am tending to my birds. I am listening and referencing the likes of Heine Bijker; Aubrey Thibodeaux; Scott Campbell; Eldon Cheney; Henry Cook; Norm Herrin; Jerry Holder; Don Ouellette; Clay Hoyle; and a few others. Time has moved on, I am afraid, for better or worse.
Think about it; he was a performance fan of the twizzle. He enjoyed the roller that flipped and flopped and girated in all kinds of ways on its decent. I watched films of his birds that have now been put on CD's and it was not a pretty picture to behold. I wonder sometimes if many of the stories about him are a myth.
Now, don't get me wrong, I admire him and the others of his day like Stan Plona, J. Leroy Smith and others. They put the Birmingham Roller in front of us. We in the US owe him.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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Shadow
143 posts
Jul 03, 2008
12:24 AM
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Bill Pensom thats gone before us in the Roller World the fact that he saw fit to put it in writing,is his legacy to us of what he knew and achived with the Rollers,in most instances is how we interrpet this,only knowing of Pensom through his writings,he was in my eyes a top roller person,with a marvelloue insight in to all things concerning Rollers,this is one of the reasons we are now discussing his ability now all those years later,he possibily had more effect on the roller fancy dead or alive than any before him,or possibily any for the next forty years,but this is only done through the medium of the written word,which to my line of thought makes it vitally important to get it down on paper,and this makes it important to decipher what he wrote only whats relevent to oneself.The other two gentlemen mentioned namely Bob Brown and Bill Barret were the icons when I first made my entrance into Rollers,and I doubt if I will ever witness kits of birds of the calibre I witnessed in Daisy Bank Tce,again to my eyes,they were the real deal,depth,speed,workrate,kits of birds where birds that didnt work good and proper,didnt seem to exist, Bob himself was an extrovert type person,who really enjoyed his rollers,his life,and his tipple, I dont need to wax lyrical about Bob,or his birds,as his reults do a better job than ever I could,Bill Barret another real gentleman I had the pleasure of meeting many times,also had posessed an d flew the finest of rollers,with both of these fabciers a virtual bed of knowledge of many things regarding rollers,sadly they did not leave it in writing,like Pensom did,they could have,as both were very intelligent people,that they didnt is now our big loss,another fancier of that era,still living and with much to offer is John Lenihan,a sidekick of both these men,and a reputable fancier in his own right,now if John doesnt put it in print,well somebody should do it for him,because rightly or wrongly this is our legacy,and it should be there for others to read,about in another forty years.
Just an aside,we had many birds over the years from Bob and Bill,and as you would expect fairly decent birds,and being a small roller community insomuch that we all lived in close proximity,with seven kits on view at different times,without leaving your yard,we crosed Bill and Bobs lines on a regular basis,and on occasions produced birds,that would take your breath away,
The little bit I know regarding rollers is due in no small amount to knowing Bill and Bob,and Johnny,also to what I gleaned from Bill Pensoms writings,if its there,the right stuff,you can learn something,without knowing them,but its important to have it there,and not hide your light under a bushel,theres another one namely John Wanless from Mbro ,never met him,he wouldnt know me from Adam,but I know from what I have read,that as a roller flyer this guy is a bit special,and would like to see his thoughts,and ways in writing,many more out there I am sure,as they say,you are never to old to learn.
Now regarding what Pensom wrote,the fact that its there for all to see,and judge as they see fit,this is more important,than our own personal opinion of it,it would be catastrophic if it wasnt there. J.M.O.
Last Edited by on Jul 03, 2008 12:51 AM
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kcfirl
451 posts
Jul 03, 2008
3:00 AM
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LaRon,
I'm not bashing Bill Pensom - after all my birds are descendents of birds he bred.
I am only saying that we need to expand our view of the bird and not restrict our field of view simply because there was on e outstanding individula with the birds here in the US.
Scott,
a champion will go with the team generally. That does not eliminate thwe fact that some families of birds are better kit pigeons and others produce higher quality champions.
I remained convnced that there is a difference between breeding for champion individuals and breeding for the best kit pigeon regardless.
It just depends on what you want to focus on.
Ken
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Scott
865 posts
Jul 03, 2008
6:14 AM
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Ken, hog wash , the best are one and the same.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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kcfirl
453 posts
Jul 03, 2008
10:02 AM
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Scott,
oh yeah, I forgot, the comp guys breed perfect rollers in every way. sorry for thinking otherwise.
LOL
Ken
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Scott
867 posts
Jul 03, 2008
10:45 AM
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That is the never ending goal bud, are you back home now ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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