Robby, Donek Pigeons are another performing diving breed originally bred in Macedonia(the area around close to Greece and Turkey)which are very good at outflying BOPs.I have found a gentleman living in Scarborough,Ontario who has excellent Doneks and he is sending me 2 pair this weekend.They are costing me plenty but I don't care I'd take out a mortgage to look after my birds if I had to!!I will begin breeding them and training the young as soon as I can and when I have them flying I'll let you know how they make out.I'm pretty excited about getting these birds. Keep 'em Flying, Kelly
Same here I've just been into rollers for 1 year now, but I love my birds and intend to have them until I die. If I have to fly a kit of divers to protect them then so be it. To me it would be worth it to be able to keep my birds from being slaughtered.
FITS...Robby
Last Edited by on Aug 02, 2007 9:15 AM
Just wondering has anybody actually seen it work? I ask because I routinely fly my homers in the face of coopers. I'll even turn them out if the rollers are under attack. The homers are flown 12 months a year under all conditions and I have never had one taken by a coopers while in the air. If I lose a homer to a coopers it is because it was loafing on the loft.Yet I have not see it deter the amount of attacks. ---------- Ron Borderline lofts
I was going to get some Doneks a while back, but after a discussion with a friend who raises them, it was my understanding they are pain in the ass to try and train. I just use a kit of birds that were destined for the feed store.
And for those who think doneks and divers can't be caught. Think again. The falcons in the Santa Cruz area, after eating a very successful and well respected roller flyer out of his rollers, learned to attack and catch his doneks too. He finally had to move.
Last Edited by on Aug 02, 2007 10:50 AM
i have seen a couple kits of Flying Oriental Rollers and some donkes in action the orientals just do aerobatics in the air and get the hawks off that way and the donkes just dive and pull up last second i have seen one donke almost crash into the ground his wing just hit the ground and he broke it so he was just a breeder after that but my friend had kits of both and donkes are not easy to train ---------- The man in black city-side-lofts.piczo.com Ben the bird man of Idaho
I fly Flying Orientals and I can testify that they are very hawk resistant. I have never tried them as Birmingham Roller guardians as Paul Sisk does but if anyone wants to write Paul, send me an email and I'll give you his address.
Doneks would not be good as guardians because they are best flown in small numbers and with droppers close at hand because they have a terrible homing instinct and get lost very easy. They are also not a kitting breed. You need a kitting breed that will fly a good while and not get lost when the Hawks attack.
Bill Hart also uses Catalonian Tumblers for this purpose. You can find his article here:
Yeah,I've been told to really train Doneks properly you need to have around 5 hours a day to make them work.This is another great reason to semi retire to the home front and quit pushing my body so hard.They need to be flown in groups of only 2 or 3 and their flight time is around 15 minutes depending on how high you want them to be before you put the dropper bird out,and they dive for the loft.The fellow sending these 2 pair to me says he rarely loses a bird to BOPs.Even if they don't help the survival rate of my Birmies(tho my hope is they will),I still think they will be a great breed to have and raise. YITS, Kel.
Last Edited by on Aug 02, 2007 6:07 PM
Its been long time, Buddy. I am glad you popped in abd posted. Has it been a year?
You have got a nice clean site and some good information. I am putting together my own site as well and I am kinda using yours as an example along with Tony's and a couple of others. ---------- Nick
Hey Nick, thanks for the welcome or the welcome back. I don't know how long it's been, maybe a year? Honestly, I haven't been on any Roller sites lately but I do read some, but only on this site. It's a good site for information; if nothing else it's entertaining with some of the bickering that goes on LOL
kelly if you are going to get doneks make sure you breed lots because they as dumb as dog sh-- they have been known to get strayed in by chickens here and being a high flyer get lost very easy i have plenty of them around my area i throw lemons at them when they land with my birds lol.but the turks and macedoinan's around me sure like them.cheers trev
Last Edited by on Aug 02, 2007 11:30 PM
trev is right. I have had a few Doneks and Orientals and the Doneks are on the edge of losing it all of the time. If you want to do one or the other I would stick with the Orientals as Alan suggests. Thier intellegence is on par with the Birmingham's.......I think, anyway. The Doneks are loony on par with the Parlors.
Ever think about Dewlaps? ---------- Nick
Last Edited by on Aug 03, 2007 6:17 PM
Al,Trev,Nick, Thanks for your input.The trouble with all of these breeds are they are difficult or impossible to find up here in Canada.I know a guy back east who imported some Cats from Arizona this year but he still does not have any he will cut loose to sell me.I've heard they don't tumble as they've had it bred out of them and are basically just for show in the fireback bronze bald and black bald(friar-cap)colours.Alan,do you know if this is true about them not tumbling at all since being bred more just for show??These Cats this guy has originally came from Circus Lofts. Trev,yeah I remember when I lived in New Zealand in the 70s lemons were a dime a dozen.The Doneks are on their way tomorrow so I'm committed now as I've already paid for them.If nothing else they will give me more poop for the compost and my raspberries will produce even more!!!LOL.Your input is appreciated moochly. ---------- Kelly
Kelly, Alan is circus lofts , when i was reading awhile back on divers all the info i read said the wutas were the easiest to handle just a little info ive gathered rocknrollers smk
That's right, I am Circus Lofts. It's true, I exported some Catalonians to a fellow in Canada named Masoud Hanasavha. They were all Friar Caps, but most Cats come in all kinds of colors. In fact they are known as the breed of 1000 colors. And yes, the tumbling ability has been bred out of them here in America and Germany but the hawk evasive skills are still alive and well. I really don't care about the tumbling ability anyway. When you have Rollers, tumbling is like going back to the horse and buggy days.
If you want some Cats and you are in Canada, shoot me an email and I'll give you a contact that I am sure can help you.
Al, Thanks For your advice and assistance.I will try these Doneks and see how they turn my crank before going ahead with the Catalonians for now.Don't want to get in over my head with different breeds.I am still interested in the Cats but better hold off for now.Masoud is the guy I have been in touch with about getting some,but he hasn't yet written back to me saying he has some to spare.If and when the time comes for me to look into aquiring a couple pair,I'll definately be interested in your contact up here. Thanks again, Kelly.
Wayne, Those Dewlaps must be rare over here in Gawdsowncountry.I've never seen them on any club lists anywhere in Canada anyways,don't know about the states.So,,,tell us how you fly them and what their performance is like.I've been curious since you first mentioned you had them in another thread somewhere.Can you post some pics or vids? ---------- Kelly
One video does not represent all Oriental Rollers. Many Orientals can spin as good as the best Birmingham, but they also do a lot of other things in the air as well. You have to understand they are not Birmingham Rollers. Comparing two totally seperate breeds is Apples and Oranges.
Personally, I have totally switched over to Orientals because they are far more entertaining to me than Birminghams and I don't lose most of my birds to the Hawks.
If you would like more information on the differences between the two breeds read these articles:
---------- Alan
Last Edited by on Aug 04, 2007 8:38 AM
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1531 posts
Aug 04, 2007
9:51 AM
Hey Alan, long time no post. Thanks for the information. I haven't looked at your site, do you sell these kinds of rollers? ---------- FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Alan It fascinates me how you can enjoy a orientals performance as to a roller i know they are two diffrent breeds of birds but my opinion only there seems no comparison to rollers. I suppose its whatever floats your boat as they say but good luck with them and please send a clip if you can
Kel Check this site out. Also its Ste Buck who has the dewlaps and there rapid fast to watch it would take a good hawk to catch a well bred Dewlap. Ive seen them many times at Ste Bucks i think he will send more info on these diving birds. shttp://www.turkishtumblers.com/Adana.htmometime.
http://www.turkishtumblers.com/Mersin.htm
---------- Regards W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection =====================================
Last Edited by on Aug 04, 2007 10:03 AM
I was talking with Ken Davis at the feed store today and since he's a big OR breeder (for show really) I asked if he knew anyone that actually flew their ORs and how they performed. His comments were that he's seen many ORs, particularly ones bred right out of show stock that actually balled up and spun. He commented about seeing a number of ORs fly at Isom's house that he would swear was a BR until they landed. I would think that with the right selection a person could have ORs that rolled in the ballpark of what most BRs do. I think it would be more challenging to breed them to kit like good BRs do versus getting them to spin with any level of acceptibility.
Guys; I think one of our members raised and shipped Catalonian tumblers to some of the fliers. The cats were supposed to be very good at evading hawks. Has anybody heard the results of this experiment? Al
Wayne and Steve, Sorry,I get you guys mixed up.Wayne the site you mentioned is the one that got me interested in diving breeds. Got my Doneks today!!They are a beautiful bird.Will post some pics when their tailfeathers grow back in completely(The guy I got them from plucked them for more room in the shipping crate).Even without the tailfeathers they look great!! ---------- Kelly
To all concerned...I put up a post several weeks ago concerning the BOP problem. I mentioned the Guardians by Paul Sisk as a solution to the BOP problem. But NO ONE seemed to think it of any INTEREST. Thanks to Alan and several other FOR (Flying Oreintal Rollers) guys I have had the privilage of seeing these fantastic birds in action. HOW.... because I purchased some from Alan himself. These birds are GREAT. I have 3 (15 bird) kits of BR and have not lost a one to the BOP, due to the FOR. Once again I want to thank Alan,Paul and Rich and for their HELP with the FOR that I got. Great Help guys...One more thing, For those of YOU that have never seen these fantastic birds (FOR)fly. DON'T knock them. They have much more action then a BR. Paul
Last Edited by on Aug 05, 2007 7:44 AM
>>Hey Alan, long time no post. Thanks for the information. I haven't looked at your site, do you sell these kinds of rollers?<<
Nice to "see" you again Tony. Yes, I do sell them. The main reason to get them distributed. There is a big demand right now for them because for some of the guys it's the last straw to getting out of Pigeons because of all the BOP problems. A lot of people like to fly their birds, whether they are Rollers or whatever and the BOP attacks makes it very difficult.
Look at this email I just recieved today from a breeder and flyer of 47 years:
>>Hello Allen, Before the last two weeks I hadn't seen a Coopers hawk since mid March. There is a homer guy near me that has supposedly (moderated) dozens of hawks. I have been told that he lives less than a mile from me. Then a couple of weeks ago it is like they are having a convention here? The Peregrines whom hadn't hit my birds in two years are regularly flying around hunting my area. I can't even phantom what has changed. I fly Voute and Donek. I have been flying five to eight times a day all spring and summer. You are correct with the present situation I am unable to fly a pigeon. I raise parrots and cockatiels and I might be forced to convert pigeon resources to the exotics. I have only raised pigeons for 47 years. The only thing is, I don't care for pigeons that that are not let out to fly. I get my main pleasure from raising babies and training them to fly at my signal or to fly in a race. A pigeon that doesn't fly is as useful as a three legged thorough bred race horse. I am sorry for telling you that I would purchase the birds {{{he was going to buy some Pouters from me}}} but if things continue like they are now I have about 150 pigeons that I don't need. Thank you for your time and I hope you much success with your pigeons. I looks like you have some very nice birds. kindest regards, *****<<
OUCH!!!
---------- Alan
Last Edited by on Aug 05, 2007 10:23 PM
>>I would think that with the right selection a person could have ORs that rolled in the ballpark of what most BRs do. I think it would be more challenging to breed them to kit like good BRs do versus getting them to spin with any level of acceptibility.<<
Yes, I believe you could breed Orientals close to Birminghams that can evade Hawks but some of the quirky acrobatics they do would not be acceptable with the standard of Birmingham Roller performance. You could breed that out but in doing so, IMHO you breed out some of the evasion techniques they use. They are big on these helicopter spins and that sends a BOP off target. They even practice these spins over and over as squeekers in training from the roof to the ground. The fast flying, the darting and the diving is also an advantage which isn't appreciated in Birms. But there could be a happy medium by a limited amount of selective breeding but I doubt you could ever have a WC winning kit. On the other had you could breed a strain that would at least do better against the BOP than does the average Birmingham.
BTW... OR's are good kitters in small kits of up to 15 but never great kitters because of all the varied performances they do and the speed at which they fly..
To those that do get into this breed, do not make the mistake of thinking they are BOP proof; they are not. I have had some people get squeekers from me and try and train them in the middle of Hawk season and then wonder why they get scattered and lost after an attack. I start training my kit birds in April or May once the Hawks are gone or few in number and then by September when the Hawks come back they are in great flying shape, mature and ready for the Hawk wars. I start breeding for the kit boxes around Valentines Day.
Alan, Was the gentleman who wrote you saying he was having his Doneks hit by BOPs?Curious as I just received 2 pair of Doneks and was hoping they were better at evading peri attacks and coopers.BTW your posts are very interesting.Thanks. ---------- Kelly
Be careful flying Doneks because they have a horrible homing instinct. Fly like 2-3 of them at a time and once they get some good height, call them down with the dropper and that's when they dive and spin. Never let them get to far out or they'll get lost.
I got mine from Bill Jacox and he sells a training CD. His site is: http://www.doneks.com/
Here's another way to selectively breed your own strain of Flying Oriental Rollers, that is if you don't care to work with their Rolling skills. Totally ignore the Rolling abilities and breed a strain through natural selection only for BOP evasive abilities, homing instinct etc. Not only will they be Guardians for your Birminghams but it's quite entertaining watching the BOP's futile attempts at catching these birds. I have some birds here that have flown almost everyday in the teeth of Hawk attacks for 4 years now and survived the Hawks and haven't gotten lost.
---------- Alan
Last Edited by on Aug 06, 2007 9:01 AM
The 2 most dangerous times for BR's seem to be when they are first released and when they are landing. Once they have picked up momentum they are pretty capable of out-maneuvering BOP's on their own. Falcons and Goshawks are the most persistent. I think it is the constant circling, in slow fashion, that attracts predators. I never cease to be amazed at how many times I am forced to leave one or more birds at a different location, only to find them all there safe the next day.....many of the times I had almost given them up for gonners....Al
If you notice in Bill Hart's article the season before he started flying the "Guardians" he lost 100 Birminghams to the Raptors, the next season while flying the Guardians, he didn't lose any to the Raptors. I guess it depends on your area if you can use the Guardians or not.
One explanation could be that the evasive breeds have been selectively bred for centuries to evade Raptors. With the Orientals it was to evade the Desert Falcon of the mid east, with the Catalonians, Raptor evasion was a sport in Spain.
Many of the German Color Pigeons are also Raptor resistant because they were originally field Pigeons and this ability was bred into them by natural selection. In Germany they call them "Hedge Hoppers" because they evade the raptors by flying very low as if they are hopping the hedges. But of course they aren't kitting type fliers and you need kitting birds to be Guardians.
Alan; Very true about the toy breeds in the wild but they are not that successful in captivity. The commies here fly the same way....fast and low, directly to their destination....but when they lolly-gag around they get taken just like any other pigeon. I used to have a white hen who would hide somewhere and wait until the kit had all trapped in. Then she came like a bullet from nowhere and trapped in quickly. Al
I enjoyed that post Allan , it also brought to mind how few old birds I loose to the preds , I think that there is more to breeding out of old prooven birds than just knowing thier performance ability. It also tells of if they have the smarts to shut of the roll when need be(stability) and tells us if they can make it home from over flys , they do pass off these traits.
That's true Scott, It seems to me that breeding for those "smarts" has been neglected. I know when I was a kid no one had any problem with the raptors because they were truly endangered but today they are thick as flies, so maybe we need to tweak our breeding priorities a little and include "smarts."
Scott, Hey buddy,something we agree on!!WOW!Yeah,I truly value a bird that makes it back to the kitbox time after time when being attacked.Especially after a year of flying and if it has any kind of decent performance.---------- Kelly
Hey Alan, if you don't mind would you send me an e-mail so I can get back to you my e-mail is (((((((tight_spinners(and that @ thing)yahoo.com)))))))))
Thanks... Robby
Last Edited by on Aug 08, 2007 10:18 AM
My Doneks are doing good having lost only 3 out of 16 flyers since january is good compared to the BR situation against the henery.The ones that have been taken have always been the youngest ones on one of their first serious flights along with the older birds.Seems once they are good at flying and especially if they've already experienced an attack they are fairly good at spiral diving for the loft quick in a manner which throws the falcon off. I can't say having this breed flying before my BRs is making any difference to the # of attacks on them.Maybe the Flying Orientals Rollers will help.I'm willing to try soon as I can get some good ones and flying different breeds of performing pigeons can be quite entertaining to watch. YITS!! ---------- Kel. Rum-30 Lofts
