RUDY..ZUPPPPP
202 posts
Sep 01, 2007
1:50 PM
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
205 posts
Sep 01, 2007
4:37 PM
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
206 posts
Sep 01, 2007
5:01 PM
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sundance
161 posts
Sep 01, 2007
5:16 PM
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are them some big looking birds or what ? and wow , how the times have changed. can you imagine anyone going to the loft in a shirt and tie these days? And a bow tie to boot!!! There sure were a lot of gentlemen in the hobby back then. My , how we`ve changed....
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Butch @
Sundance Roller Lofts
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
207 posts
Sep 02, 2007
5:09 PM
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DeepSpinLofts
142 posts
Sep 03, 2007
5:55 AM
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Hi Rudy...
Fabulous pictures of the Hall of Famers!
Sundance, I think Pensom was visiting a friends loft. This may explain the suit & bow tie.
************************************************
Rudy;
QUESTION: Is that Plona with Pensom in the photo above?
QUESTION: Who's green loft is that in the 3rd picture of Pensom?
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Sep 03, 2007 5:56 AM
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C.J.
1579 posts
Sep 03, 2007
7:13 AM
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Excellent photos. Even if he was visiting a friends loft how many of us have ever went in a suit and tie to a buddues kift
C.J.
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nicksiders
2126 posts
Sep 03, 2007
10:41 AM
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Ya know, there are many of the younger breeders who don't want to talk "Pensom" and feel we should put him behind us; he is outdated; and anything about him cannot help them to become better breeders. I have had birds from Paul Voughn and guess what....they are Pensom based. I have had Smiths and Plona based birds and guess what they are Pensom based. I would venture to say that if you have Rollers in the US there are Pensom blood in them. Neibel got his from Cooper; Cooper got his from Pensom.....ya see how it all works.
Can you spread a wing on your birds and detect the Pensom linnage in them? Most of us old bastards can. His insights about the Birmingham Roller in his writings are useful even today....gotta read them; I don't care how smart you think you are and that you have moved on away from him.
Nick
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BigRiverRollerLofts
Last Edited by on Sep 04, 2007 5:58 PM
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kcfirl
189 posts
Sep 03, 2007
11:22 AM
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Nick,
I wonder what Heine Bijker and the rest of the European guys would say about your comments on Pensom. They have been kicking our butts and certainly are not beholden to any single man the way we are. Nor do their birds have a drop of Pensom blood in them.
Regards,
Ken Firl
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
210 posts
Sep 03, 2007
12:06 PM
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Hi marcus DEEP SPIN LOFTS..
I could not answer your questions..
i was doing research on pensom and found this pictures
and dcided to postem maybe some of these old school guys might now?????
WHO IS WITH PENSOM IN THE ABOVE PICTURES WITH TROPHYS ?????
RUDY
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nicksiders
2127 posts
Sep 03, 2007
1:39 PM
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Ken,
We ain't going to win it every year. This year we will have to put up with 3rd and 4th in the world. Maybe if we get back to the basic Pensom we will regain our world dominance. What ya think? I thought Heine was flying some Neibal blood?.....hmmm, what do I know?
Nick
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BigRiverRollerLofts
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crystalpalace
39 posts
Sep 03, 2007
4:57 PM
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It was a pleasure seeing those pictures of my old friends William Bill Pensom and Stanley Stan Poloma. I heard about Bill Pensom in the early fourtees and Stan Poloma in the fiftees. They attended the Natioal Pigeon Association Natioal Show in 1955 at Stocton,California. There were lot of great roller fanciers present at that glorious event. I lived in San Francico,California at that time and was working that weeken. Therefore my picture wasnt included in any pictures taken that weekend with the Pensom gang. A year later i met Bill Pensom in Los Angeles and manymore distingueshed roller people. Then i met lot of the other roller fanciers thourghout California in the fiftees and sixtees. I entered my pigeons at many NPA National shows and this gave me the opportunity to meet other veteran roller breeders. I moved to L.A. in 1964 and met with Bill Pensom and Ralph Hilton every month at the L.A.P.C. table show and meeting. They had me handle their rollers and taught me the finner points about picking out breeders and fliers. Then on weekends i would visit them and judge the birds in the air. I owne the purest mealy bar and blue-black check family in the world portrayed in the Pensom books Also the best stock shipped into the USA in the early twentees. The newer English stock was introducesed approximetley ten years ago and they are very fine rollers too. O the mealy bar in the front cover of the Graham Dexter book is the same as my American family. Some of those same bloodlines are in England but they dont breed as many dark colors as we do in the states. My experience flying the American and English rollers is the American birds are a higther quality style and velosity roller. Im crossing my champion mealy bar,blue check,dark check family to the newer English stock. In otherwords the original crystal palice family that Bill Pensom won champion in New Yotk. The 514 are related to them too. In the sport,Ray
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DeepSpinLofts
143 posts
Sep 03, 2007
7:04 PM
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Thanks for answering my question Ray.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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kcfirl
191 posts
Sep 04, 2007
12:49 PM
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Hey Nick,
I think it has a lot more to do with the man currently breeding and flying the birds than it does what distant relatives the birds have.
sincerely,
Ken firl
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
219 posts
Sep 04, 2007
3:38 PM
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ANOTHER PIC OF MR PENSOM
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nicksiders
2129 posts
Sep 04, 2007
6:06 PM
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Ken,
First step is to have the stock; after that it is up to how well you can manage them. A bad manager can mess up good stock; a good manager can get the full potential from the stock and it is only the worthiness of the stock that will limit the good manager.
Just my opinion of course and it doesn't mean a pissing thing.
Nick
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BigRiverRollerLofts
Last Edited by on Sep 04, 2007 6:07 PM
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
224 posts
Sep 05, 2007
5:20 PM
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HEY GUYS DID U NOTICE MR PENSOM HAD ALOT OF COLORS.LOL
ON HIS BIRDS
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Electric-man
555 posts
Sep 05, 2007
5:38 PM
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They pretty much look like the basic colors though to me! Except those two in the window of the second building! I bet those are the ones he's saving for the next 3-day weekend barbeque!
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Val
"Site Moderator"
Last Edited by on Sep 05, 2007 5:39 PM
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DeepSpinLofts
144 posts
Sep 05, 2007
6:57 PM
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Just reading this thread and found the excerpt below posted by Crystalpalace -- Ray
>>>> I moved to L.A. in 1964 and met with Bill Pensom and Ralph Hilton every month at the L.A.P.C. table show and meeting. They had me handle their rollers and taught me the finner points about picking out breeders and fliers. Then on weekends i would visit them and judge the birds in the air.<<<<<
....and this too
>>>>>In otherwords the original crystal palice family that Bill Pensom won champion in New Yotk. The 514 are related to them too. In the sport,Ray<<<<<
QUESTION: Didn't Ralph Hilton have 514 Blood in his birds?
I have a book published in November 1958 in Los Angeles, Calif and signed by William Pensom to a guy named Randy. Picked it up from an older Indian fella near a reservation in Northern, Calif. It's a Yellow and White Book with a Red Spangle/Mottle Roller Pigeon on the front page (soft-cover).
QUESTION #2: Being how Pensom personally signed the book, how much do you think it would be worth to a collector? Just wondering that's all.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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kcfirl
194 posts
Sep 06, 2007
8:44 AM
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nick,
there are many poor managers that started and still have decent stock. I know of no good bird managers that have tried to get some decent stock and can;t find it. It's everywhere in my opinion.
So, the manager is what makes the diff. Good stock is easy to come by in comaprison to good management skills.
regards,
Ken
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Alan Bliven
366 posts
Sep 06, 2007
9:05 AM
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What made the "good ole days" so good was the fact we could fly our birds all day and all year long without being harrassed by the Raptors.. think of the training and breeding advantages.
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Alan
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Ballrollers
871 posts
Sep 06, 2007
9:51 AM
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Amen, Alan!
Cliff
PS The box and check went out today...
Last Edited by on Sep 06, 2007 9:51 AM
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hardtimekenl2
57 posts
Sep 07, 2007
11:34 AM
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pensom he might have been good and knowed blood lines and stuff but in today times i would like some of the men that finsh ever year in the top ten or five in the world fly to to write a book or two and thay are still a live to talk to you on the phone. just me thow hardtime
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Velo99
1295 posts
Sep 08, 2007
6:45 AM
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Guys,
My take on the birds we fly and have flown over the years.
Fact.
There have been a limited number of birds introduced into the USA since the inception of the Birmingham Roller.
Fact.
In the 20`s and 30`s the lines we fly today were being built.
Fact.
Due to the hassle and expense of importing birds from Europe there will never be an abundunce of imports available to infuse new blood into our rollers.
Fact.
The BR was developed in England and of course they don`t have "Pensom" birds because he was just another roller guy over there. Their bloodlines are vast and varied and no particular one is really valued over another. They know it is more management than bird.
Fact.
Due to the above stated facts we are almost all flying the same 5-6 strains of birds refined in the 50`s and 60`s. So in this country it is again down to management of the birds, not the birds.
Seems to be a recurring theme.
jmho
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V99
Flippin`The Bird!
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
Last Edited by on Sep 08, 2007 6:48 AM
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hardtimekenl2
58 posts
Sep 08, 2007
3:07 PM
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boy that is good to know about the 5-6 strains of rollers and that is all.so that means i got good blood in my jacks if thay been breed right thow time (right) is all jacks the same blood line if thay are pure?
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Mongrel Lofts
352 posts
Sep 08, 2007
8:43 PM
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V99,
I have to say, I think your facts don't hold water. The gene pool is much more varied than 5 or 6 stains imported. I think the facts are your facts are opinion based on non fact. In my honest opinion. Of course this not fact, just my opinion.. You ever look at the list of imports and the vaired names behind the birds? Fact means you know something for sure. These facts of yours,, I'm not so sure about! KGB
Last Edited by on Sep 08, 2007 8:44 PM
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JMHD
214 posts
Sep 08, 2007
8:51 PM
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Hey Rudy you asked who were the guys with Pensom in the picture with the trophys they are Stan Plona and Lester Lehmeyer. Not sure of the green loft but the white loft was Lester Lehmeyer's. John M.Loft(HDRC)So,Cal.
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Velo99
1297 posts
Sep 09, 2007
6:08 AM
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OK
The 5-6 lines was a bit of a stretch. Point being there were a limited number of birds brought into the country originally. These lines have been crossed and recrossed. There may be a few pure lines. After the Dual Purpose Roller debacle I feel it is highly probable that almost every major line was polluted,which is why we sometimes get the odd color and the mongrel breeder label is slung around. The attributes we are all looking for are usually a result of careful planning and breeding.Stock selection is paramount in the beginning. This leads me back to the gist of this post.
Which line(s) would you choose from the available stock today and why? In your opinion what is the purest line available?
Do you know enough about the available stock to really know what you need/want in the area of the country you live in? How does your personal management skills play into the family you breed or would like to?
In your personal experience has one family or line of, been easier to match to your management style or is there enough flex in your program to accomodate any family?
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V99
Flippin`The Bird!
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
Last Edited by on Sep 09, 2007 6:19 AM
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MILO
446 posts
Sep 09, 2007
8:35 AM
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There were not a limited number of birds brought into the country originally. There were many. Also, by more than just a handful. Of these lines, it is true that many had been crossed and recrossed.
"Which line(s) would you choose from the available stock today and why? In your opinion what is the purest line available?"
What is pure? What does that mean? Pure to the original imports of one individual? Or does that mean pure to the last individual working with a line of birds? The term "purity" is as dirty a word as "mongrel" or "color breeding" in my opinion. There is a fine line there.
"Do you know enough about the available stock to really know what you need/want in the area of the country you live in? How does your personal management skills play into the family you breed or would like to?"
That is a great point. I think it is important for someone just shopping for a new family to do a fair amount of homework here. If the family you are shopping for doesn't have any "how-to" notes, then unfortunately you have to figure it out for yourself. Life is short, so better to ask questions than waste precious time and money.
"In your personal experience has one family or line of, been easier to match to your management style or is there enough flex in your program to accomodate any family?"
Absolutely. The birds I love fit me like a glove. It's funny, Rollers can be like a bad girlfriend...You just know the relationship is going nowhere and it's time to move on...LOL
I had the opportunity to fly just about all of them as a kid. I think I have told the story before. My experience is unique. I had a friend that purchased many families, and I was able to fly them out, and pick a bird or two as a reward. Out of personal preference, I gravitated towards the family I am still breeding today. They were the easiest for me to handle, and superior in the roll. I couldn't imagine working with any other line.
There are so many different types of rollers, and so many variables. In my opinion it will always be like this. Next time you find yourself in a BIG CITY, look around you for a few minutes...and remember Adam and Eve...LOL
c
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Mongrel Lofts
353 posts
Sep 09, 2007
10:53 AM
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OK
The 5-6 lines was a bit of a stretch. Point being there were a limited number of birds brought into the country originally. These lines have been crossed and recrossed. There may be a few pure lines. After the Dual Purpose Roller debacle I feel it is highly probable that almost every major line was polluted,which is why we sometimes get the odd color and the mongrel breeder label is slung around. { V99, Sorry but this is off base also. The show guys eventually did turn to mongrelizing just like the color guys did. But the import stock and the guys who bred them, would die before crossing them. Look at this picture of what the show Mongrelizer have done to the Birmingham roller. Are your birds related.. The color guys have crossed other breeds to get the colors factors and patterns and NO, they are not in all the pure families. THAT MY FRIEND IS PURE BS!} The attributes we are all looking for are usually a result of careful planning and breeding.Stock selection is paramount in the beginning. { THIS IS FACT} This leads me back to the gist of this post.
Which line(s) would you choose from the available stock today and why? In your opinion what is the purest line available? { ANY LINE THAT HAS NOT BEEN THROUGH THE HANDS OF GUYS WITH NO RESPECT FOR THE BREED AND CROSSED THEM ON OTHER BREEDS. I REFER YOU BACK TO THE NBRC TAPES ON COLOR GENETICS TO SEE WHAT HAS BEEN DONE TO THE BREED. IT'S PROOF THAT COLOR BREEDERS HAVE MONGRELIZED THE BREED AND POLLUTED THE GENE POOL BY CROSSING BREEDS.}
Do you know enough about the available stock to really know what you need/want in the area of the country you live in? { YES } How does your personal management skills play into the family you breed or would like to? { YOU HAVE TO HAVE THE GOOD STOCK, BUT GOOD MANAGEMENT IS VERY IMPORTANT. a GOOD MANAGE CAN MAKE SHIT LOOK OK, BUT A BAD MANAGER CAN MAKE SHIT OUT OF ANYTHING!!}
In your personal experience has one family or line of, been easier to match to your management style or is there enough flex in your program to accommodate any family? { I HAVE TRIED MANY LINES OF BIRDS OVER THE YEARS AND I STILL EXPERIMENT ALMOST YEARLY. I HAVE NEVER FOUND A FAMILY I COULDN'T FLY AND GET SOME ROLL. I PREFER BIRDS THAT ARE IN CONTROLL OF THE ROLL NOT CONTROLED BY THE ROLL. A GOOD TEST OF THIS IS THE MOLT. IF YOU HAVE BIRDS THAT ROLL DOWN AND REFUSE TO FLY DURING THE MOLT, YOU HAVE A FAMILY THAT IS MORE CONTROLLED BY THE ROLL. IF YOU FAMILY JUST GETS SELDOM IN THE ROLL AND REMAINS STEADY FLYING UNTIL AFTER THE MOLT. YOUR PROBABLY ON THE IN CONTROL SIDE OF THE ROLL.
CHECK OUT THIS PICTURE OF ROLLER. THIS IS WHAT THE SHOW GUYS DID TO THE ROLLER THROUGH MONGRELIZING AND CROSSING BREEDS. MANY OF THEM CLAIM THEY HAVE PURE PENSOM STOCK. JUST LIKE MANY OF THE COLOR BREEDERS TRY TO CONFUSE THE NEW GUY AND SAY THEIR BIRDS WERE NEVER CROSSED TO OTHER BREEDS TO GET THE FUNNY COLOR SPEAK WITH FORKED TONGUE! JUST LIKE I THINK YOU WOULD AGREE THAT ALL OUR BIRDS ARE NOT RELATED TO THIS MONGREL BREEDING. NIETHER ARE ALL OF OUR BIRDS CROSSED UP WITH THE MONGREL CROSSING'S FOR COLOR. ITS JUST NOT TRUE V99. THOSE WHO HAVE CROSSED BREEDS WOULD LIKE US ALL TO THINK ALL ROLLERS ARE THE SAME AND CROSSED THE SAME AS THE COLORED MONGRELS BUT THEY ARE NOT! KGB
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MILO
447 posts
Sep 09, 2007
11:26 AM
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How do you really feel Kenny...LOL
c
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Skylineloft
139 posts
Sep 09, 2007
11:30 AM
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Ken,
When was the show roller popular ?
Was this the 80s ?
WHAT A MESS......
Would you say thats a RUSSIAN ROLLER ? ......LMAO
Ray
Last Edited by on Sep 09, 2007 11:30 AM
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pacos bill
18 posts
Sep 09, 2007
12:15 PM
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SOMEONE PLEASE POST A REAL ROLLER PICTURE QUICK,I did the SHOW ROLLERS IN LATE 70 EARLY 80 AND SAW THIS COMMING AND BAILED, POST THE PICTURE OF A REAL ROLLER BEFORE I LOOSE MY LUNCH! I FEEL REAL SICK Pacos Bill
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W@yne
640 posts
Sep 09, 2007
12:20 PM
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Kenny
Please delete that picture its making me feel sick Jeez some people
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Regards
W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection
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nicksiders
2141 posts
Sep 09, 2007
12:49 PM
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What a beautiful color! How do I go about getting a color like that? Just gorges!
I pay the feed bill so I can do whatever I want to my birds.
LMAO! How many times do ya hear this crap?
Dual purpose rollers; what a joke. I even had some show birds once. Not a good time in my breeding life. All of us can get down right ignorant sometimes. The best thing I ever did at that time in my life was to cull everyone of my birds and moved to California. Remember the Emerson's; I had them....guilty. I actually tried to fly them thinking they were the finest of dual purpose rollers. I was 40 years old, but still a dumb ass. What a joke! Because of this event in my life I still have questions about what I got now.
Nick
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BigRiverRollerLofts
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Velo99
1298 posts
Sep 09, 2007
5:07 PM
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Nice Job Billings
Now would you be so kind as to tell us what you know about the families you have flown and their origins as you know it.
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V99
Flippin`The Bird!
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
Last Edited by on Sep 09, 2007 5:08 PM
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
236 posts
Sep 17, 2007
5:35 AM
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zupppppppp v99
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
287 posts
Oct 09, 2007
6:57 PM
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REST IN PEACE MR PENSOM.......
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
301 posts
Oct 14, 2007
5:55 AM
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HEY guyzzzzzzzz...........
Did mr Bill Pensom had any othr breed besides rollers ?????????\
RUDY
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birdman
397 posts
Oct 14, 2007
7:20 AM
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Yes,he did.
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classicpony
427 posts
Oct 14, 2007
6:05 PM
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I could not help but see in one of the pictures of Penson that his pigeons were on the ground. I was always thought that was a NO... NO! That's why I have my dog chase them back up on the kitbox or loft. The ground is his, all his.
Jim
Illinois
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3757
171 posts
Oct 14, 2007
6:10 PM
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Jim - This was not uncommon at all in the old days. Matter of fact it was common practice to throw a few grains on the ground and have the birds go after it.
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classicpony
429 posts
Oct 14, 2007
6:16 PM
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This sure have changed, LOL , my dog just loves the game of keeping the birds off his ground. :)
Jim
Illinois
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tapp
387 posts
Oct 14, 2007
6:37 PM
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Jim, I have my dog do the same. Beats me doing it. If it weren't for all the hawks. I would feed my kits a few grains on the ground I love watching them mill around. But now days. you need them to trap asap! The other day I shut the trap door so I could take a few pics.of the kit on the roof, I got two pics. and then a hawk swooped my loft. and kept going. Birds still trapped within 5 min of this. I was lucky. It was my A team. I think our birds could teach us alot if we could watch them for 5 min a day on the ground. You couldn't feed them alot or they would't trap. But 5 min. sure would be nice to set in a chair, And feed them some. Mabe next summer I'll pick one kit and do it all summer with that kit.My pigeons are not afraid of my dogs they go in the loft with me. and are always under the kit box when I'm watching kits eat, and they can see the dogs under them through the wire. When it gets time I can have my dog scare them up again. And see what happens between the birds and me, and the effects of a kit let peck around a while. To a kit that can't! Maybe i'll let them take a bath on the ground also.
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Tapp
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Electric-man
704 posts
Oct 14, 2007
8:18 PM
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My corgies won't let one get on the ground either! Thats pobably the part I miss the most about the old days! Specially bath time on a hot summer day! I would put about three inches of water in a kids swimming pool and have 30 birds in there at once spashing around, then they would all stretch out on the grass and sun!
My buddy, "Switchblade" Dooley, locks his cat in the breeders loft at night with loose birds and it keeps the mouse population to a min! It doesn't even look at the birds! As a kitten, he made it stay in the barn with the fighting roosters, learned birds are bad jou jou! LOL
Wierd, aint it!
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Val
"Site Moderator"
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classicpony
433 posts
Oct 15, 2007
5:26 PM
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My birds know there's a new sheriff in town and her name is Penny. The roof is for the birds but the ground around is mine.
That the way I like it. They land on the roof and hop down to the landing board and go in throung a 5 in hole. Keeps the coons out and almost everything else.
Jim
Illinois
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gotspin7
261 posts
Oct 16, 2007
4:56 AM
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List, I will tell you I miss having the birds walk around the yard! you get to see all the different personalities, my two rat terriers just go crazy chasing the birds of the ground!
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
525 posts
Nov 23, 2007
1:23 PM
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QUE PASO KELLY..............
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ezeedad
56 posts
Nov 23, 2007
1:39 PM
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Rudy,
Pensom also bred Modenas and for a while racing homers. He also had canaries and a variety of little parakeet type birds...
Gomez
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
530 posts
Nov 23, 2007
2:48 PM
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Zupppppppp Gomezzz.........
HOW u been....
No wonder where we got the small beaks modenas color from homers and crest from the parakeets........L.M.A.O.
Just messing around..lol
PEACE
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