rollerman132
142 posts
Nov 01, 2007
7:55 PM
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Does anyone know what’s behind the Houghton birds?
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CSRA
350 posts
Nov 02, 2007
7:20 AM
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I beleive Bruce Cooper has a little to do with it
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rollerman132
143 posts
Nov 02, 2007
11:48 AM
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Bruce Cooper must have been a hell of a breeder, Norm Reed, Homer Cordero, Ron Kumro all had Houghton’s blood line. Thanks
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nicksiders
2404 posts
Nov 02, 2007
12:08 PM
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Bruce Cooper got his birds from Pensom. Monty Neibel's birds came from Bruce as well. There are people on this sight that have Cooper's bloodline. It is funny how Pensom is with us, even today.
Nick
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SNICKER Rollers
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Steve_uk
260 posts
Nov 02, 2007
1:16 PM
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I've never been to the US but ive seen quite a lot of birds on this website and you have some great looking birds but can you answer this for me are you getting top quality rollers from these original Pensom bloodlines thanks.
Steve0...
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3757
207 posts
Nov 02, 2007
1:58 PM
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I have birds directly from Bruce and we have discussed the individuals who had some of his blood and Houghton is one of them. However, Houghton obtained some birds directly from Bill Pensom also. There is some Rottenbacher blood in the Houghtons that also goes back to Bill Pensom as well. I am not sure about the birds that he has today maybe someone else can comment on this (I assume it is the same as his old blood). Bruce is as great as Smith and Plona in my book. Monty had 99 percent of his blood from Bruce as well.
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nicksiders
2406 posts
Nov 02, 2007
3:24 PM
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Steve UK,
Monty Nieble flew Cooper birds which was basically from Pensom. Guys who finished 4 and 5th in WC this year flew Pensom based birds. It is all from England....Pensom imported directly and I can find who supplied him the birds if you want. You guys are probably using thier bloodlines. Heine uses Niebel blood, so he too has a connection to Pensom.
I am positive that you have in the UK the bloodlines Pensom imported.
Nick
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SNICKER Rollers
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Alohazona
336 posts
Nov 02, 2007
10:11 PM
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Dr. LD.,
Didn't the late Dick Stephens help Cooper get started with his birds back when Dick lived in Calif.?...Aloha,Todd
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crystalpalace
145 posts
Nov 02, 2007
10:41 PM
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I met Rottenbacker down in Los Angeles in the sixtees at the Pageant of Pigeons and he was judging the NBRC rollers. His blue-black checkers were some of his most admirable rollers. He was a big man in apperance and a good breeder and flyer. I was present at one of the NPA Nationals in Washington many years ago and met many of the ole time roller breeders in the northwest. I think Bruce Cooper was one of those great roller fanciers. Bruce has some stock closely related to mine. That mealy red bar is one of them and his blue-black check are too. Houghton is suppose to have stock from Rottenbacker and his blue-black checker family look the same. When we flew rollers in Modesto two roller fanciers bred and flew the Houghton family. The Frank Lavin and Ray Sanchez family were flown before they arrived. Joe Kiser flew the Mac Cully family for one year in nineteen eighty. One flyer flew the Cornell family for several years. Sammy Williams flew the Richard Jackonette family crossed with some of my stock. Ken Billings bred and flew the Frank Lavin family for many years. Then he invested in the Howard Mac Cully family that Herb Sparks has bred for many years. Kenny has bred and flown them for many years and has made his own family. Jack Meyers owned the Frank Lavin family for many years and made his own family. Jack is breeding the Jerry Higgings and Norm Reed family at the present time. I bought some Frank Lavin stock from Jack Meyers and used them for an outcross and mated the young back to some of my original stock from Bill Pensom. I purchased some stock directly from Ralph Hilton in nineteen seventy eight. Bob Evans sold me a grizzle cock and tortishell cock that are behind one of my families.
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JMHD
220 posts
Nov 03, 2007
1:57 AM
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The Birds go back to Bruce Cooper and there is also Rottenbacher birds as well NBRC-63-3757 Pensom bred and owned by Bruce is one a Rottenbacher cock Hans-71-# 40 Ash redbar is another. John M.Loft(HDRC)So,Cal.
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3757
208 posts
Nov 03, 2007
10:26 AM
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Aloha Todd - To answer your question the answer is no. When Dick Stephens first moved to the state of Washington he had just purchased a cock from J. Leroy Smith (JLS-53-#23). Bruce was already friends with Bill Pensom and Dick new this. Dick was not impressed with #23 at first and Bruce ask him to put 23 on number 9. This mating was a very famous mating and Bill Pensom even made verbal and writing statements that this was a champion pair. Bruce used 3 birds off of this pair and mated them back to the Plona champ 4904 and a youngster down from this went onto 3757.
Dick had many great champions from Bill Pensom due to the close association of his father Doug. As long as Bill Pensom was alive Dick had great pigeons. He never had a pigeon that he could not sell and ever bird on his pedigrees were reported as being champions (Which was not true) Dick Stephens is still the greatest pedigree writer of all times. I new Dick in Mahattan beach and he got upset with me in the 90's because I said that the birds he had in the 90's were not true Pensom's. Incidently, he even got rid of that same family that he was mad at me about.
Rottenbacher and Elmer Davis both got some birds that were down from the 23/9 pair. It is reported that this pair was as good as the old 463/1613 pair. The 23/9 blood is fast and they are early developers. Myself and Bruce are the last to have the 23/9 blood fairly close. I do not give Dick all of the credit as Bruce put the pair together. Once he found out how good they were he never mentioned this part of the story to anyone.
Last Edited by on May 25, 2010 7:37 PM
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nicksiders
2409 posts
Nov 03, 2007
12:04 PM
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Hey Doc,
How and when did Dick Stephens get involved with Tom Hatcher? Do you know what is the base lines for the Continentals and what is you take on them?
I hope I am not putting you on the line; I am just asking for your opinion and you possess the most accurate histories of anyone I have ever known.
Thanks,
Nick
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SNICKER Rollers
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3757
209 posts
Nov 03, 2007
2:50 PM
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Nick - I do not know the exact date that Tom Hatcher became friends with Dick Stephens but I do know that he is a friend of my good friend Frank Lavin. Tom lived here in Southern California so he may have met Dick when he lived in Manhattan beach California as I did.
The Continentals derived from two strains: The Hatcher Plona stock and the Fred Taylor stock through Charles McVay. Fred Taylor had some really great spinners that he brought from his native country of England. Dick Stephens always said that the Fred Taylor birds were from Bill Richards strain but I have not seen any evidence of this accept for a vague letter from Dick Stephens that he wrote to a freind of mine. I do not have much confidence in what Dick Stephens says about the birds being from Richards stock. I believe it was a selling catch and this is my opinion. Tom crossed the Plona stock with the McVay birds to create the continentals. Dick got rid of his stock that he acquired from Lou Vari and started over with the continentals from Tom Hatcher. As far as the birds ability to spin with high velocity I do not know.
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Built4Speed
189 posts
May 17, 2008
8:58 AM
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Nice refresher and history lesson!
Thanks Laron
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Dale
SGVS
http://builtforspeedrollerlofts.bravehost.com/
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4nkroLLs
50 posts
May 17, 2008
10:12 AM
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WoW
thanks for Knowledge
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D.T.R.C
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ducket
3 posts
May 17, 2008
10:31 AM
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Hej Nick,
You say that Heine Flys Monty Neibal birds ? that is the first I have heard that, Heines birds go back to Bill Barrett,a bit of Mason and Bezance, so where do Montys birds come into the picture ?
Eric, Denmark.
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3757
740 posts
May 17, 2008
10:44 AM
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Dale and DTRC - Anytime!
I hope all is well!
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colinb
78 posts
May 17, 2008
11:10 AM
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Thats right Erick, we where at Heine's last month, and that is exactly what he told me, barrets, a bit of masons and a bit of bezance.
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STUDENT 2 THE GAME
46 posts
Dec 03, 2008
9:19 PM
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So I guess HOUGHTON birds are ?????
STUDENT 2 THE GAME
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Sunflower
8 posts
Dec 04, 2008
7:14 AM
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Nick,
I am not sure how Dick got involved with Hatcher but I have 4 pedigrees on the two pair of Stephens birds that I am toying with on the side. LaRon is right, Dick was a magnificent pedigree WRITER. To read these pedigrees you would expect the heavens to open up with thunder and lightening as these 4 birds come boring out of the sky.
All of the birds on the pedigrees are J L Smith, Stan Plona and T R Hatcher. These 4 birds are about one breeding season away from becoming 2 inches shorter!
Joe Beach
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3757
1075 posts
Dec 04, 2008
7:24 AM
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Student - In the old days they would be called Pensom family of birds.
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Scott
1311 posts
Dec 04, 2008
7:38 AM
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(Blankety Blank was a magnificent pedigree WRITER. To read these pedigrees you would expect the heavens to open up with thunder and lightening as these 4 birds come boring out of the sky.)
Man you got that right LOL , he was allowed to take advantage of unsuspecting people (mostly new) far to long useing the NBRC as a vehicle.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Dec 04, 2008 4:24 PM
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Sunflower
9 posts
Dec 04, 2008
7:54 AM
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Damn Scott- I'm glad we finally agree on something since I've been known to breed some color.
Joe
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spinningdemon
32 posts
Dec 04, 2008
9:24 AM
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Crystalpalace, thank you for the info! Could you tell me more about the Hilton birds?
David Curneal
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COYOTE33
151 posts
Dec 04, 2008
4:05 PM
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its amazing how people run their mouth about people who they didnt know and only go by what they have heard from other people, when they dont have all the facts.scott you remind me of the other gender female you cant seem to keep your mouth closed. if you can't say anything postive about dick stephen, why say anything at all,stop seeking glory for yourself when you dont have any. your not going to get a reputation by bad mouthing someone who is dead that cant defend himself. oh by the way your opinion sucks!
coyote!
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Scott
1314 posts
Dec 04, 2008
4:24 PM
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Fixed it for you Coyote
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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gotspin7
2071 posts
Dec 04, 2008
5:00 PM
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Now this is a real treat!...lol..
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Sal Ortiz
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Sunflower
10 posts
Dec 04, 2008
5:13 PM
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Sal- I'm confused, What's the treat?
Joe
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gotspin7
2075 posts
Dec 04, 2008
5:17 PM
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Joe, it is not that serious, as I was just laughing. Hey the reality of it all, is this we sit here talking all this BS of these old greats till our arse is blue and what are we solving here? (NOTHING)Unless you had a direct contact with that person and a good friendship it is all BS anyway. It is amazing to me how some tend to just know everyone..LOL!
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Sal Ortiz
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COYOTE33
152 posts
Dec 04, 2008
5:31 PM
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then im fixed, maybe now you well focus on your birds and not focus on bringing other people down. just because a man takes pride in what he does, we don't need to bad mouth them. not only did he keep very nice ped's, he kept excellent records but you wouldnt know that.
coyote
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Sunflower
11 posts
Dec 04, 2008
5:33 PM
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Sal-Understand, I was just commenting on the 4 pedigrees I have that the man wrote. Every bird in the last 3 generations is either a Champion, a Champion of Champions, Best Hen I ever saw, Produces on any cock, or my favorite, "Ball Bearing Smooth". Hard to understand why they don't produce.
Joe
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gotspin7
2077 posts
Dec 04, 2008
5:41 PM
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Joe, I understand. I learned that lesson a long time ago! I got burned with some "Champions" myself bred out of the pure pensoms...lol.. After that I was lucky enough to meet some guys that did fly and flew regularly and their birds produced high percentages of good rollers. Joe, good luck
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Sal Ortiz
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Sunflower
12 posts
Dec 04, 2008
5:55 PM
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Sal--Thanks, these 2 pair were just an excursion for me. Was intrigued by the muffed birds I guess. My family is one I developed over the last 26 years. Since I retired 2 yrs ago, I spend 4-5 hours a day in my loft and flying my birds. Now that I have the time I have tried a couple of excursions, one with Indigo and this one with the muffed birds. One produced good results and the other hasn't so far.
Joe
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COYOTE33
153 posts
Dec 04, 2008
6:19 PM
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Joe, i receive all of stephen's bird after his death.i have all his records as well as all his ped's. i have his old family of birds and the continental's. if i could provide any info for you, i'll be more than happy, if not thats fine too.i dont know if you have the old family or the continental but i will tell you that both families produce. it just depends on how you fly them and how you feed them. they are not designed for kitcomp they are more for the individual flyers so they may not be the family you want. there is a difference.
coyote
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Sunflower
13 posts
Dec 04, 2008
6:26 PM
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Coyote-- Thanks, The birds I have are out of "Sparty Too", "Sheez-A-Diamond", "Boots" and "Hondo". Very nice looking birds but so far haven't produced the performance I expected. Haven't given up on them yet. You have to admit the pedigrees he and Hatcher wrote are literary wonders.
Joe
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3757
1079 posts
Dec 04, 2008
6:42 PM
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Sal - Is it not true that the emphasis on "pure Pensom" was not the reason you got burned but the birds were just no good. The birds could have been sold to you as pure 00021, Jaconette etc and you would have had the same outcome?
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COYOTE33
154 posts
Dec 04, 2008
7:02 PM
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joe you are right, they did write wonderful pedigrees,
personally i dont pay a whole lot of attention to what they say as far as champion,everybody has there opinion about what a champion is and in their eyes that's what these birds where, but at the same time i dont doubt that they were good birds. these birds go back to J.leroy smith,Stan Plona and Pensom. that's what i pay attention to, this is the closest i can get to the old blood, now let me make my champions. the ped's are just a guide. dick and hatcher loved to name their birds,sale their birds, talk about their birds, that's their contribution to the hobby and im not saying they didnt sale a bad birds, who doesn't!
i sent two young cocks out of boots and hondo down to N.C. to truesdale, am still kicking my self for that:)
that's because they are producing roll for gregg and he sent me two youngster out of them, so i know its roll in this family, everybody is looking for different things.
coyote
Last Edited by on Dec 04, 2008 7:02 PM
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gotspin7
2079 posts
Dec 04, 2008
7:10 PM
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Laron, I know that, this guy just used that as a tool to sell pigeons, and used the whole "pensom" bit. I will say that those pedigrees sure looked good with all that "old blood" behind them, and you are talking about a youngster that had just got done reading his PENSOM book..lol... Ok, I will say that the family of birds does not matter, every family has and will throw garbage! By the way who is 00021?
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Sal Ortiz
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3757
1080 posts
Dec 04, 2008
7:15 PM
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Sal - Agreed as that is my point he was just a rip of artist. Also, 021 is one of my best birds.
Another tactic these con artist uses is putting down everyone else's birds but their own. They always have negative things to say about every family but the one they breed.
Last Edited by on Dec 04, 2008 7:18 PM
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George R.
1213 posts
Dec 04, 2008
7:42 PM
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The Proof is in the AIR , If a Certain Family is kicking ASS from coast to Coast then that family Deserves to be Reconized...
I think all the seriuos Bird flyers know which familys are doing Good in Comps against the best the hobby has to Offer..
the novice
George
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COYOTE33
155 posts
Dec 04, 2008
7:58 PM
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hey George! Im glad you chimed in, tell joe about that cock you received from stephen's that produce well on seven different hens of yours that you sent back to me. in a lot of peoples loft, that bird would be consider a champion breeder.
coyote
Last Edited by on Dec 04, 2008 8:01 PM
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gotspin7
2080 posts
Dec 05, 2008
4:39 AM
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Coyotee, how is the feeding difference between the "comp birds" and the "individual birds"?
George, you are a 100% correct!
Question to all the "individual" breeders how many of you are willing to fly a "individual fly" against any "comp flier"?
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Sal Ortiz
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kcfirl
522 posts
Dec 05, 2008
6:17 AM
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Paul,
I've been hearing about an individual bird competition from the PRC for the last 2 years. I'm beginning to wonder if you guys really want to have one?
Respectfully,
Ken Firl
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3757
1082 posts
Dec 05, 2008
6:28 AM
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Ken - I had a heart attack last year and it set us back because no one in the my club wants to assist me and the one person who was helping had a serious illness. If you would like please call me. I also sent you a couple of e-mails regarding the subject and I did not get a response. Perhaps it went to your spam. Health is the most important thing in life.
Last Edited by on Dec 05, 2008 6:30 AM
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COYOTE33
156 posts
Dec 05, 2008
7:37 AM
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Sal, i don"t think there is a major difference in feeding the two types of birds, the difference comes with the strain of birds you have. for exmple i have a uncrossed plona family that is so strong, i can't feed them the same as the other family because i'll lose them. so its not so much of the indivdual or comp feeding is more of what strain of birds you have.pensom birds tend to be a later developing family, you would have to fly them more and feed them less to bring out the roll.
coyote
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smoke747
1425 posts
Dec 05, 2008
7:57 AM
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Sal, Coyote might have his hands full already..lol
smoke747
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Keith London
ICRC
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kcfirl
525 posts
Dec 05, 2008
8:12 AM
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Dear Paul,
I am sorry to hear that and I pray you've recovered as completely as possible. I had no idea. God Bless you and if you need someone up North to handle coordination, you can count on me.
Regards,
Ken Firl
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pat66
236 posts
Dec 05, 2008
8:13 AM
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Coyote,
could I get your email? couple of questions about Dick
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Pat
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3757
1083 posts
Dec 05, 2008
8:20 AM
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Ken - This is LaRon and I appreciate it your prayers. Could you e-mail me at ldoucet@spfldcol.edu as I really would like to coordinate something with you. Maybe we can do a trial run.
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Scott
1324 posts
Dec 05, 2008
8:39 AM
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(they are not designed for kitcomp they are more for the individual flyers so they may not be the family you want. there is a difference.)
Coyote- for the life of me i can't figure out what that difference might be, please explain
(pensom birds tend to be a later developing family,)
Coyote-there is no Pensom family any more, only families built from such, and the charactoristics change so greatly from each other that they are complete outcrosses from each other, as for when they come in it is strictly do to selection.
Scott
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Dec 05, 2008 8:40 AM
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