CSRA
377 posts
Nov 04, 2007
6:30 AM
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How many fanciers on this site would say they have true spinners
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
388 posts
Nov 04, 2007
6:32 AM
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HHHHHHHHMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM.........???????????
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
184 posts
Nov 04, 2007
6:41 AM
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Steve,the word spinners is used so loosely some and newbies may have not seen the spinner to compare the difference. Yes I have spinners not all or anyone else have just spinners but for the minority of people ,that is our strive and goal "WITH NO COMPROMISE"
R-LUNA
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
389 posts
Nov 04, 2007
7:43 AM
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NOT......ME..LOL
GOT SOME NEW BIRDS THIS YR WILL BE PROVEN....
THIS COMING YR...
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3757
210 posts
Nov 04, 2007
8:36 AM
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Steve - The question is a little ambiguous. The focus for the majority of the fancy has not been on true high velocity spinning as the number one focus. If it was you would have seen a lot of interest in clubs such as the SBRC and one or two others that focused judging Birmingham’s to individual high velocity spinning standards and rules. I now use the term high velocity spinning because most individuals use the term rolling and spinning in the same context. I would ask how many individuals actually have seen a true high velocity spinner? Even in the magazines all you here about is points, turns etc. When Arnold Jackson judged one of the big fly's here in California he was the first that I know of who actually explained to individuals that their birds were rolling and not spinning with high velocity and as such they did not receive high quality points. There is a big difference in judging an individual high velocity spinner and a kit competition and most do not want to have any part of the individual fly's such as the SBRC. I have discussed this issue with my friends Richard Luna, Arnold Jackson, Herb Sparkes and Bruce Cooper.
It seems to me that fanciers only go with what the majority are into and are not open minded to some of the original fly rules. Kit competition is a great thing for the fancy but we cannot lose sight of those pigeons that spin so fast and clean that it makes you fall to your knees and you usually will have to change your pants if they are true! Also, it is not the fancier’s fault that many have not seen true spinners because that's not the number one focus today.
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centralvalleylofts
70 posts
Nov 04, 2007
9:39 AM
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3757 great post. many today love the compatition so much that they loose their focus on that single individual.ive been to peoples homes and saw their birds in the air and they always piont out their deep birds,then when you watch and ask about a certain bird spinning they barely know it.
and when you say thats one hell of a bird they say its not deep enough.they just dont recognise a spinner anymore than apure tumbler.sad world when people would rather breed from a 30-40 roller that a bird who spins 10-15 but with twice the velocity and better style.thou this birds are rare you can still breed for them.and you may even get lucky that the person who has such a bird would part with it because of its depht.
just my two cents central.
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parlorfancier916
397 posts
Nov 04, 2007
10:00 AM
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If i was to bred birmingham rollers, I would not be breeding for true spinners, I would be breeding for a kit of performers that will work very well together.. velocity, depth and frequency is a plus, but a good working group is a must..
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Nrhoua (Doua) Xiong
4581 25th ave. sacramento C.A. 95820
http://freewebs.com/parlorrollers
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3757
211 posts
Nov 04, 2007
12:45 PM
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Cnetralvalleylofts thanks!
Xioung- You have confirmed my point. Most individuals that talk about true spinners and the individual bird do not understand that the bird does work together in a team, kits, has frequency etc. Most have not really seen one. If you do not breed for true high velocity spinners are you breeding true birminghams or has Bill Pensom's vision of the true birmingham becoming instinct now a reality?
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nicksiders
2416 posts
Nov 04, 2007
3:28 PM
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True spinners that spin true. I have some spinners and some rollers all of them true. No one will be able to answer that question without some ridicule or admonishment of some sort from the "spinner" experts. You will hear some real stupid stuff like "your life will change if you have seen a true spinner". or they simply will tell you that you don't have the experience to experience a true experience of a true spinner. So, prepare your selves to be enlightened by the enlightened. They have the true spinner, by golly.
Nick
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SNICKER Rollers
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gotspin7
350 posts
Nov 04, 2007
4:22 PM
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Steve, good topic! I actually had the pleasure of viewing one in your backyard in 2003.
Nick, good post!
3757, I have seen a few. They do make your socks roll up and down!LOL
Last Edited by on Nov 04, 2007 4:33 PM
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3757
212 posts
Nov 04, 2007
4:39 PM
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Gotspin - This is true all families can produce a true one but most people today are not discussing the cultivation of high velocity spin at all.
Also, (This is not toward you got spin) but most people assume that I am saying that the high velocity spin is not out there today. Not true, I am talking about cultivation and focus. It should be discussed more but it seems that individuals think that when this discussion comes up that you are taking shots at their birds etc. This is far from the truth. The first thing that they do is get defensive and start criticizing without having a good educational discussion. Just look at some of the comments. Who ever said that "they or I" have the true spinner! Find it. You cannot. This issue should be discussed more.
Last Edited by on Nov 04, 2007 4:46 PM
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gotspin7
353 posts
Nov 04, 2007
4:51 PM
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Doc, no bad taughts here! I was just sharing that I have seen good ones in every loft! Doc, how many spinners have you bred at your loft? I will share with you that in my 20 years in the roller game I have only bred 2 birds that I would consider a true spinner. I have bred quite a bit of fast rollers but a spinner is a different pigeon!LOL
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CSRA
380 posts
Nov 04, 2007
5:19 PM
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3757 i am in a club that do fly the individual A. Jackson has been are judge the whole season so we are looking for that spinner also we do kit comp and lawn show comp. our goal is to touch all the aspects of the roller/spinner hobby i hope others will appreciate the things are getting accomplished. We do use the rule of the old SBRC club
Thanks L. D. for your imput
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3757
213 posts
Nov 04, 2007
5:34 PM
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Steve - Thanks! This is wonderful that your club is doing this and using our old SBRC club rules. This is exactly what needs to be done in the hobby and if Arnold was there he knows what a high velocity spinner is and he is a great fancier.
Gotspin - I am going to e-mail you at gotspin7@yahoo.com to talk in great detail about the 1-10 system which will anwer your question.
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gotspin7
361 posts
Nov 04, 2007
5:38 PM
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Steve, when are you guys flying again?
3757, I would appreciate that.
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
187 posts
Nov 04, 2007
7:46 PM
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LARON---3757, excellent posts!!!! articulated could not be better.
Steve it's GREAT your club is using the SBRC score system. SBRC is the best club I have been in and there will be none greater. I joined it and agree'd for what it was and what it stood for, they have down to the T. (SPINNING BIRMINGHAM ROLLER CLUB)..Steve we hope to get it started again but in different organized areas.
CENTRAL VALLEY LOFTS, THANKS for the back up and understanding the perspective.
Last Edited by on Nov 04, 2007 7:49 PM
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Fire Brewed Rollers
12 posts
Nov 04, 2007
7:57 PM
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The club I belong too GSVS flies the 20 bird kit, but some have been talking about having a single bird fly next year along with the 20 bird kit. So maybe one of our flies will be with the old rules and scoring only a single bird.
This way you can get what you can call a champion based on others scoring the bird.
You better be get that Hi-Velocity bird going for this one.
Robert Miller
Fire Brewed Rollers
Last Edited by on Nov 04, 2007 7:58 PM
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richard.r
18 posts
Nov 04, 2007
8:56 PM
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 Here i am holding one of the fastest birds i'v bred ever! came into the roll at 6 month's at 10 month's but on a blistering performance this past oct, during the fire's we had out here in califorina, nbrc 868-07 dun ash cock 30'-40' spinner "The Rainning ash cock" due to the ash falling from the sky.That day
Last Edited by on Nov 04, 2007 9:51 PM
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gotspin7
362 posts
Nov 05, 2007
4:57 AM
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3757, thank you for your e-mail, good information.
Richard, nice bird! It looks like the 272 blood? Richard really like that sign!
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
189 posts
Nov 05, 2007
6:53 AM
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Hey Mr. REYES, good to see you and thanks for the pic, good looking bird your holding,looks strong and confident.
The sign above you is a great sign.
Talk to you later.
Richard Luna
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richard.r
22 posts
Nov 05, 2007
8:18 AM
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Thank's Sal, and Greed. When all is bad,BOP'S or a not so good fly i keep in mind the 3rd sentence. What's behind this bird is the K.O. hen, Dennis Godair, Richard.E. 119 stuff
Last Edited by on Nov 05, 2007 6:26 PM
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CSRA
399 posts
Nov 06, 2007
8:04 AM
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Well thats the end of the true spinner any fast rollers out there?
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MILO
787 posts
Nov 06, 2007
8:13 AM
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Richard.
When you say 119 stuff, is that PRC-60-119? Father to 3859? Just wondering.
c
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CSRA
408 posts
Nov 06, 2007
12:40 PM
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u are a sharp person Milo
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MILO
791 posts
Nov 06, 2007
1:36 PM
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Thanks for the compliment. Can you tell my wife now? She doesn't think I am. LOL
c
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3757
215 posts
Nov 06, 2007
5:04 PM
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Milo - I think Richard is talking about PRC-60-119 father of NBRC-63-3757 :) lol
Last Edited by on Nov 06, 2007 5:04 PM
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MILO
795 posts
Nov 06, 2007
6:08 PM
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LOL
My apologies, I SO should have used your number instead...LOL
c
Last Edited by on Nov 06, 2007 6:09 PM
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richard.r
24 posts
Nov 06, 2007
7:09 PM
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Hey! Milo and 3757, Just checked Richard Espinoza pedigree he give me 4 years ago. 3757 is correct.
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spanky
50 posts
Nov 06, 2007
7:15 PM
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HEY RICHARD
NICE LOOKING BIRD.
ALSO LIKE THE SIGN.
SPANKY
SGVS
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Mongrel Lofts
424 posts
Nov 06, 2007
7:48 PM
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You know
#119 is also behind Frank Lavin's #2564 cock.. I think the goods have been spread around. It's just that every time someone see's a great spinner, they some how think they are the first or only one to ever have seen one. They discovered something no one else has seen or bred before! It's a lot like who is the next phenom? Magic! You show up to see this bird that is better than anything you have ever seen before, and it's always stocked, or not spinning as fast as it was yesterday! I appreciate the topic, but I say breed for the best darn rollers you can in the air, and let the spinners {CHAMPIONS}come when they may. You can't breed for Michael Jordan, you can only be in awe when you see him play. I always get a bit leery when we start to talk about breeding for faster spinners and claiming to have seen speed very few have ever seen these days. I have yet to meet the true roller breeder that was breeding for slow short birds that lack speed but break together.
All that being said, I agree all clubs should have Speed and style as there #1 goal!!! KGB
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Skylineloft
321 posts
Nov 06, 2007
8:00 PM
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Well said Kenny!!!!!!
Ray
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nicksiders
2426 posts
Nov 06, 2007
8:08 PM
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Kenny said what I wanted to say, but I got off in one of my smart ass tangents and could not find my way back in time to close off.......the thought just ended; I closed off my post; and just sat there waiting for something to fall out of the sky. Nothing ever did, so I just got up and walked around thru the house awhile contemplating my next master piece.
Weird, ain't it?
Nick
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BigRiverRollerLofts
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Donny James
81 posts
Nov 06, 2007
8:13 PM
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what is a true spinner?????????????/
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tapp
458 posts
Nov 06, 2007
8:53 PM
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Nick, How is your wife doing? Better I pray.PS good post KGB
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Tapp
Last Edited by on Nov 06, 2007 8:54 PM
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nicksiders
2427 posts
Nov 06, 2007
9:00 PM
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Kim,
I brought her home today. Her memory has nearly all been restored. The medical people have a name for it, but they told me to think of it as just an "event" of the brain. There has been no damage done that a stroke would had done.
I am feeling relieved and gratful.
I appreciated all of the prayers and messages of concern that she and I have recieved from everyone.
Thanks, Kim
Nick
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BigRiverRollerLofts
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Skylineloft
322 posts
Nov 06, 2007
9:12 PM
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Nick,
Thats great news!!!!!
Good to hear she is home.
Ray
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3757
216 posts
Nov 06, 2007
9:15 PM
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Nick - I am glad your wife is home and I will keep her in my prayers.
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Missouri-Flyer
894 posts
Nov 07, 2007
6:30 AM
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Nick,
Hope you have many more happy years with your Misses..
Kenny,
I couldn't have said that any better. When I read about this person or that person state that they have this pigeon or that pigeon, I just sit back and smile. There are many,many,many good breeders and flyers out there, and great managers, but I doubt that they have anything better than a guy just down the street. we all breed good birds that perform well, and look good in the air, but to say that I have something that no one else has would be just plain B.S...I know better
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
200 posts
Nov 07, 2007
7:51 AM
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OH BROTHER !!! here we go again as PENSOM quoted "some will never get it in a life time."
Wise Proverb...
R-LUNA
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3757
219 posts
Nov 07, 2007
8:08 AM
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I really believe that you are correct Richard. It seems as if many people cannot get past the word individual and do not understand that tight kitting is a must even though birds must be judged on their individual merit. When we discuss individual performance we are talking about judging the pigeon that stands out the most in a kit. I do not care if it was Monty's world cup team or whomever there is a bird in that kit that stands out above everyone else in terms of speed, style, frequency etc. There has to be and that is the pigeon that a person will really keep their eyes on. How does one stock a bird? Do you not judge the bird individually on all of its merit? That is individual performance within a working team.
It amazes me how defensive people are and think that someone is saying that they do not have any fast birds or that someone else has faster pigeons because we discuss individual quality. How does that interpretation come about? Why is it that we can discuss a kit, action, turns etc but cannot discuss individual performance within that team? Now I know I am an old man now.
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W@yne
735 posts
Nov 07, 2007
8:46 AM
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Absolutely correct Kenny well said.
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Regards
W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection
=====================================
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Skylineloft
323 posts
Nov 07, 2007
8:46 AM
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LD,
I think most of us appreciate what you are doing for the hobby and respect your opinions.
I have found myself under allot of kits this year. One of the things that I noticed was that many in the crowed would get real excited about a good individual bird. Even though that bird was not being scored for its individual performance, everyone knew what the bird could do. I cannot count the time this year that at the end of the day I sat around with friends and we talked about what we thought was the best bird of the day.
Yes I agree that we need to breed for quality in rollers and I think that this is being done in kit competition. I think that individual competition is good, but I do not think it is necessary to improve the breed. We all look for the best spinner at the end of the day to put into are stock loft.
Ray
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MILO
798 posts
Nov 07, 2007
8:54 AM
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I very often find myself unimpressed standing in my own yard watching my kits. Pushing the envelope is a frame of mind. The day you feel you have reached the top of your game, it just means you are at the bottom and have to climb all the way up again. Sometimes I wonder if many realize that raising great rollers is a lifetime commitment.
c
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Missouri-Flyer
896 posts
Nov 07, 2007
9:12 AM
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I think that the reason we speak so much about KIT performance versus a SINGLE bird in that kit, is because alot, including myself, could give a rats ass what a single bird is doing. When you fly comp. with an 11 or 20 bird kit, you, the judges, and anyone else who is standing under my kit SHOULD be focusing on the ENTIRE kit, not just a single bird. If that is the case, then alot of action is getting missed within that kit. Yes, we all sit and AWWW over a single bird, but to say that a single bird should be chosen out of a kit of 20 is just plain blind sighted. You need to open your eyes and see that this is a KIT performance, not single bird performance. They ALL should be doing it together, not just 1 bird...My .02
Milo,
I too watch my bird daily, in the air, or on the ground, and think "what am I doing with this bird or that bird"..I have many who would never make it to the breeder loft, but they are such a fixture in the kit that they, like most, have their place also. Some days I sit in my lounge chair, laid back, watching my birds fly and say to my self "what could I do differently to improve the air show for tomorrow".. Then I think, heck they are just pigeons, so enjoy what you seen today.
We all could improve, but if your happy, then thats the ticket!
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
Last Edited by on Nov 07, 2007 9:17 AM
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3757
220 posts
Nov 07, 2007
9:21 AM
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Ray - Thanks for you comments. We do agree on most but I disagree and feel that the high velocity performers are the ones that will improve the breed. I respect your opinion.
Milo - I really like what you stated as this is the truth. Your statement reminds me of when I promote someone to Black Belt. I tell them that same saying and it is absolutely true. I remember when I was in graduate school and came to the conclusion that if I received a thousand PhD’s I still would only have a spec of knowledge. I think through the differences of experience and knowledge on this forum we all can grow and learn more.
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3757
221 posts
Nov 07, 2007
9:27 AM
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Jerry - I think you need to read what I said again because clearly you do not understand what I am saying at all. Open my eyes! I will no longer comment on this issue because it is clear to me that the understanding is not there for some on this issue and Richard you are correct!!
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Skylineloft
324 posts
Nov 07, 2007
9:45 AM
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LD,
I thought I was talking about high velocity performers.
IM I missing something ? lol
You do see them and they will kit and perform in a kit competition.
I might fly kit competition 6 to 10 times a year. The rest of the time IM in my backyard enjoying my birds looking for that great high velocity performer that I will also fly with the team, put in the stock pen and hope to breed more of the same.
Ray
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MILO
801 posts
Nov 07, 2007
9:48 AM
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I was out the door but was compelled to add one last post. I am having a lot of trouble with some of these comments. Perhaps you can elaborate for me Jerry. Not singling you out, but there is a lot that doesn't quite hit home here.
"I think that the reason we speak so much about KIT performance versus a SINGLE bird in that kit, is because alot, including myself, could give a rats ass what a single bird is doing."
So which birds do you put away for stock? How do you make your evaluations? What is your criteria? You stock on kit chemistry alone? I am curious. Don't fire back with it doesn't matter on fly day, because I won't buy it.
"When you fly comp. with an 11 or 20 bird kit, you, the judges, and anyone else who is standing under my kit SHOULD be focusing on the ENTIRE kit, not just a single bird."
It does make a difference in an 11 bird fly. Isn't that the whole point of the 11? To let individuals shine? As for the 20, if a judge is making comments repeatedly on an individual, he's not doing his job. I think most judges know what they are supposed to do, even if some are not great at it.
"If that is the case, then alot of action is getting missed within that kit."
Again, it is the judges responsibility here.
"Yes, we all sit and AWWW over a single bird, but to say that a single bird should be chosen out of a kit of 20 is just plain blind sighted. You need to open your eyes and see that this is a KIT performance, not single bird performance. They ALL should be doing it together, not just 1 bird...My .02"
This is right for the most part, but you are missing something here. Here is the kicker. This would make a lot of sense if there were no such thing as multipliers in competition. I don't think one single birds gets you the quality bump, but a couple sure do help. If all we received were raw scores, ya, maybe. I think that kind of tumbler mentality leads to substandard goals, and as a result, substandard kits. If you are ok with a Q 1.0 - 1.2, then great. It's not all about kit competition. The stock qualities mentioned in superior individuals are crucial. Funny, now that I think about it, the best comp kits I have flown, have had the fewest standouts. Hmmm.
c
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Missouri-Flyer
901 posts
Nov 07, 2007
9:57 AM
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Milo, the answer to your first question is:
My responses are for the comp. factor, with no regards to the breeder loft. Not everyone needs more breeders, so a single performer would do that person no good.
2nd responses: again, my replys are meant for a kit of birds alone with no preference to the breeding loft.
3rd: You are correct..My bad!
4th: you stated " I don't think one single birds gets you the quality bump, but a couple sure do help"..that is what I am saying..it takes more than 1, so why focus on a single bird?....
you stated: Funny, now that I think about it, the best comp kits I have flown, have had the fewest standouts. Hmmm.
Yep, exactly what I was saying!..no single bird stand outs!
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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MILO
804 posts
Nov 07, 2007
10:31 AM
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"Milo, the answer to your first question is:
My responses are for the comp. factor, with no regards to the breeder loft.
This is an impossible argument. It is a flawed statement from the get-go. In the grand scheme of things, you can't speak about the individual when you see it through the eyes of a team sport. How can you have one without the other? You can't be breeding, flying, or selecting with two entirely different purposes. This is the fundamental point here, and can't be brushed over with "comp is the topic." It doesn't work that way. I mean, I totally understand your hardline stance when it comes to the thread, but it encompasses so much more than just flying competition kits.
Wasn't the topic of this thread "true spinners?" If you are breeding for "true spinner" you will have good kits. And damn it if you won't have at least one standout...LOL
"Not everyone needs more breeders, so a single performer would do that person no good."
This is nuts. Anyone that has a bird in their kit superior to what they have in the breeder and chooses not to stock it is being foolish, or not truthful. The fact that you have standouts in the kit, man, if only we were all so lucky. To have them on fly day, now that, is a blessing.
2nd responses: again, my replys are meant for a kit of birds alone with no preference to the breeding loft.
Hand in hand man. Can't have one without the other. I would be worried if you aren't showing at least, one bird in every kit that can do it.
3rd: You are correct..My bad!
I am lost at this point. Ah, the horrors of cutting and pasting.
4th: you stated " I don't think one single birds gets you the quality bump, but a couple sure do help"..that is what I am saying..it takes more than 1, so why focus on a single bird?....
Can one bird get you a higher multiplier? Can that single point put you past the guy you are flying against? Isn't that enough to make us want to go further? Would you be happy losing 256 to 255 final score? LOL
you stated: Funny, now that I think about it, the best comp kits I have flown, have had the fewest standouts. Hmmm.
"Yep, exactly what I was saying!..no single bird stand outs!"
Fish on! LOL This was completely sarcastic.
Now, am I missing something or did you totally just breeze past the quality multiplier part? You know, where the standouts come into play? Forgive me if I missed you're response to this. I understand what you are saying, but this was initially about the individual...SUDDENLY, they don't matter because of some dumb rules! LMAO.
Surely you realize I AM the devils advocate.
c
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