ezeedad
11 posts
Nov 14, 2007
3:35 PM
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Last Edited by on Nov 14, 2007 3:39 PM
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lionel
27 posts
Nov 14, 2007
4:31 PM
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Good looking birds bro - I really like the last one to the right
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Lionel
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sundance
281 posts
Nov 14, 2007
4:33 PM
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E. those are interesting birds. what family are they from? I have a few muffed birds and typically like the look of them. These are like mega muffs.
I like the look of the birds body type, just not sure about those long muffs. My usually have a few small feathers on their feet. are they really good rollers? Are they a Jaconnette Line?
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Butch @
Sundance Roller Lofts
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RXR Loft
63 posts
Nov 14, 2007
4:59 PM
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wow those are nice...
how do thay roll??
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Rudy
RxR Loft
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spanky
78 posts
Nov 14, 2007
5:10 PM
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hey paul beutiful birds. like alot the 1st one and the last one.
SPANKY
SGVS
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nicksiders
2476 posts
Nov 14, 2007
5:43 PM
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After reviewing these muffed birds I would venture to say the proper term for my muffed birds would be "booted". They sure don't have the feather growth that these birds pictured have.
Nick
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BigRiverRollerLofts
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ezeedad
15 posts
Nov 14, 2007
6:09 PM
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These muffs are sort of a "reincarnation" of my old muff family. The original muff family was based on 119 Pensom blood from Farnk Lavin 1975 #38 tortiose muff cock and Cornell Norwood 1974 NL #67Black bronze hen. I used a full bro/sister mating. Some of the originals spun blood in their eyes.. really fast... This blood was integrated into my main family, but the first muffs were too closely bred, I believe, and they couldn't match up to my main stuff... But when I crossed some of them back into my main family I produced some really good birds. I used these to recreate my current muff family.
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
458 posts
Nov 14, 2007
6:11 PM
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Some nice Super muffs........lol
i seen muffs but not that long...
Will the muffs that long affect the roll ??????????
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ezeedad
16 posts
Nov 14, 2007
6:22 PM
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Rudy,
My current family is based around 2 full brothers.. One of them, that actually produced the most was day in and day out my most consistant rollers. I flew him at least 2 years.
His brother, however, was my favorite. He spun with wingtips practically touchimg and showed a small hole. I stocked him early for fear of losing him. I put the first muff on his half sister and let them breed for about 3 years, pulling my favorites. The falcon wasn't going to get any of THIS MEAT..!!!
This blood is some of my very best...
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ezeedad
17 posts
Nov 14, 2007
6:28 PM
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Rudy...Is this the same Rudy..??
I used to worry about that some too.. And I cut the muffs a couple of times.. but I don't think it made much if any difference.. Some of my first muffs spun blood in their eyes...
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3757
250 posts
Nov 14, 2007
9:36 PM
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Paul - How are you? I hope all is well.
Dr. LD
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
466 posts
Nov 15, 2007
3:13 AM
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Yeay there two Rudys in here
Rudy zupppppppp which is me and
Rudy RXR....
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gotspin7
463 posts
Nov 15, 2007
4:36 AM
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Nice muffs Paul, really like the bronze on the right!
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J_Star
1260 posts
Nov 15, 2007
6:04 AM
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Can you guys spell "Crossed"!!!
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
225 posts
Nov 15, 2007
6:30 AM
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HI JStar I was wondering if you know Paul?
WHOA!!
Paul was that a dart thrown at you???? CROSSED?
NOW those are some muffs Paul, and still kept up this line close. Very nicely done even with style in the AIR, wing tips touching ,WAY TO GO !!!!!
R-LUNA
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J_Star
1261 posts
Nov 15, 2007
7:53 AM
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There was no dart thrown at anybody. I know too many Pauls. Who are you referring to!!
Let’s take a vote and see if any fancier ever breed a bird with that kind of muffs ever in all their years of breeding rollers. That would shed some light.
Last Edited by on Nov 15, 2007 7:54 AM
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
229 posts
Nov 15, 2007
8:04 AM
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TO the Paul that wrote that post, Paul Gomez. JStar not to try to start anything but it did look like a dart and if not then I stand corrected. I have seen muffs at lawn shows, ask me who they were, I could'nt tell you, although they did mention that they were Norwoods.
R-LUNA
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ezeedad
20 posts
Nov 15, 2007
8:21 AM
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JStar,
I know a dart when I see one... And you don't need to start talking out of both sides of your mouth about it.
Glenn personally knows me as do several others on this list. I'll overlook your comments knowing that they are based on ignorance.
Richard,
You once again prove that you are a keen observer and are knowledgable.. You see the closeness of the blood...
Last Edited by on Nov 15, 2007 8:29 AM
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J_Star
1263 posts
Nov 15, 2007
8:29 AM
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Ok..I go with the flow...Very nice birds and keep up the good work. How is that!!! Which side of my mouth am I talking now! Take care and enjoy your birds.
Last Edited by on Nov 15, 2007 8:29 AM
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ezeedad
23 posts
Nov 15, 2007
8:32 AM
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OK Jstar... PEACE... But you might have your feathers ruffled now by what I just wrote... But you should understand my irritation.
Gomez
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CSRA
461 posts
Nov 15, 2007
8:40 AM
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Paul you are sharp
Steve
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J_Star
1264 posts
Nov 15, 2007
8:46 AM
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My apologies Paul. My comment was not intended toward you at all.
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Deadendkid
37 posts
Nov 15, 2007
9:06 AM
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those birds look like they were crossed with west of england maybe before you got them dad and please dont get mad its just a opinion most are scared to share their true opinions now days
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ROLLERMAN
168 posts
Nov 15, 2007
9:38 AM
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Im not 100 % sure but i think groose legs are a bird has feather on it legs before it get to his feed. booted is when the feather go down his legs to hes toe nails. and muffed beyound the toe nail. is this tru or not. i have a picture of roller in england from 1905 an most have groose legs on them.
in the early fiftys half of my birds had groose legs. they were all whitinghams and casapersons
al
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glenn
51 posts
Nov 15, 2007
9:47 AM
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Hello:
The birds are not crossed, The Original pair that bred these birds are Tort Muff Cock FWL 75 #38 bred by Frank Lavin & N.L. 74 #67. Both these Pigeons are 1st. generation birds off of Birds bred by W.H.Pensom. #67 was a Dark Check Self clean leg Hen with a nasty Muff Gene. She is behind most of my birds and also is buried in my front flower bed. Paul mated a full brother sister off of the above pair ( note: Dark Ck. Muff in another post #96)and the rest is histroy. Paul's selective breeding has kept the muff stuff going and they do spin and spin very well.
a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"> This is a bird that I bred out of that muff stuff....Glenn
Last Edited by on Nov 15, 2007 9:51 AM
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Alohazona
344 posts
Nov 15, 2007
9:55 AM
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Aloha Paul,
It has been some time since I last contacted you.Welcome to Tony's roller-pigeon site.It's great to have a dedicated Pensom breeder here.
Paul, your birds look AWESOME!..
Some of you guys knew I would get around posting on this thread,because you know I like the heavy muffs.Also from past posts its known of my respect for Paul,on all levels.
Truthfully the muffs in my loft are larger and fuller,LOL."The Rudy" cock is responsible for them,and he is 266 x Low FREEZE,Hatcher's clique pair."The Rudy" looses no altitude when he rolls,and looks like a wheel that had come off rolling through the sky.All of Rudy's kids are DEEEP and smooth as bubble gum.All with huge muffs.
Paul, the coloring of your birds, remind me of a cock I had from C. Dortin of California,Old Pensom Line.The Dortin cock threw nothing but quality on any hen he was put on.I gave him to another fancier,and was still filling eggs at 14 years,althogh soon stopped.The funny thing about that Dortin cock is all the hens in the open loft loved him,a real cassonova,LOL....Aloha,and welcome again to the site...Todd
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glenn
52 posts
Nov 15, 2007
10:01 AM
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 Another bird down off the Gomez Stuff about (6) generations away....Glenn
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3757
251 posts
Nov 15, 2007
12:56 PM
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Glenn - Nice birds.
Aloha - Carl Dorton is a good friend of mine and was a close friend of Bill Pensom. Do you still have the line from Carl?
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ezeedad
24 posts
Nov 15, 2007
6:35 PM
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Glenn,
Thanks for the pictures and corroboration on the lineage of the birds.
Todd, Are you serious about the muffs of your birds being bigger than mine? With the kind of spin you are describing, you just might have the best on the planet.
Are you in Hawaii? No falcon problem there..right?
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Missouri-Flyer
936 posts
Nov 15, 2007
6:40 PM
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Hey Jay,
I have seen muffed birds like this in a few lofts, of very respectable flyers. I have breed booted brother to muffed sister and hatched muffs just like these posted. I have 3 of them flying now..MAYBE, just maybe your out of your league of knowledge here.
Here is a cock 0321-02 that threw birds with heavy muffs that were the real deal. I had an RPDC member contact me last year about this bird. Just a few weeks back I shipped him this cock and another muffed hen to go with it.
hen..
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
Last Edited by on Nov 15, 2007 6:50 PM
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
478 posts
Nov 15, 2007
6:43 PM
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Post some pics missouri flyer..............
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ezeedad
25 posts
Nov 15, 2007
7:06 PM
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Deadend...
I guess it is possible that the birds have been crossed with west of england sometime in the past. But it would have had to have been before Cornell Norwood, Frank Lavin and Bill Pensom had the birds. Plus the birds spun really hard and they were closely down from 119, one of 514's sons.
West of Englands and Birminghams are pretty closely related as breeds of pigeons go... I remember seeing old pictures of clean legged Wests... They looked identical to Birminghams.
I know of a highly respected roller breeder who told Cornell Norwood that he had flown birmingham/west crosses against straight rollers and won the competition.. I don't know if I should sat who it was out of respect for him, but I'm sure that there are others who know about the incident. Also, I'm certain that he would let anyone who wanted any of the crosses what they were.
The best guarantee you have of the lineage of your birds is the integrity of the breeders that produce them.
Anyways, It is pretty easy to breed big muffs. I has taken me 10 years to remake my current family.
Paul Gomez
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CSRA
464 posts
Nov 15, 2007
7:32 PM
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very nice pictures thanks for sharing them
paul 309 is doing well
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Missouri-Flyer
944 posts
Nov 15, 2007
8:23 PM
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here is a cock bird that I flew out 2 flying seasons. He has some young that are coming along nicely, but clean legged.
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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lionel
30 posts
Nov 15, 2007
8:51 PM
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Well said Paul,
It’s always good to see different types and sized muffs
I’m breeding a few smith 1315 muff birds next season, I don’t have any pictures but as soon as I start flying a few ill make sure I post some.
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Lionel
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nicksiders
2487 posts
Nov 15, 2007
10:27 PM
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I have never seen muffs like what I am seeing here. Glenn's birds are muffed and the bird I showed are muffed along with some others. Those other birds are something else. I have never seen feathers that long on a Birmingham; never and I am old as dirt.
The only thing I have ever seen written of muffs on Birminghams when it was described as "lightly feathered". Some of those birds go beyond "lightly".
I will not say they are crossed, but I will say they are freaks. I would like to say they are crossed, but more than one person will saddle me up for a ride and scream in my ear that they got these straight from Bill Pensom himself and I am the dumbest piece of shit that ever lived and that I have insulted allah.....lordy, fellas those are not lightly feathered feet!
Anyone who will tell me that those are pure Birminghams are the ones with the darts. Glenn's and anyone like those are muffed Birminghams; I believe the others to be muffed......ah rollers.
I just could not apply enough pressure on my lips to say nothing.
Oh, by the way; that is my opinion only.
Nick
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BigRiverRollerLofts
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ICEMAN710
31 posts
Nov 15, 2007
10:32 PM
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great looking birds paul. Paul Gomez having crossed birds? now thats a joke. Im surprised anyone would even think of saying that. Ive seen a muff bird like that years ago, a fuller muff, it was owned by john jones and boy could it spin.
Gary
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Skylineloft
362 posts
Nov 15, 2007
10:45 PM
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Paul Gomez,
Thanks for posting the photos of your birds.
They look great.
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
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Alohazona
346 posts
Nov 15, 2007
11:15 PM
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Nick,I would say they seem to be bred for heavy muffs.I can honestly say I have never put two birds together to create such.I will probably do it in the near future to see what happens with my stuff,heck why not,I like the muffs.
One thing I have noticed I have a higher percentage of cocks with heavy muffs that roll best.The hens are either short performers,stiffs,or just don't hold up for various reasons.I would definetly like to even that out.
My first really good muffed roller "silver star" would fly around with his feet hanging down,like a plane with it's landing gear ready.It really bugged me.I said"I'm going to cull that bird".Two months later,at about 9 months old that bird started ripping 20 to 50 ft rolls and slingshoting back to the kit.I even lost this same bird in a major overfly and it returned 11 months later in pristine condition with huge muffs moulted out.Nick, call them what you want,I call that silver dun bar muffed,a roller with character and distinction,a true spinning ,BLACK COUNTRY ROLLER....Aloha,Todd
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
480 posts
Nov 16, 2007
2:57 AM
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Nice birds missouri flyer,,,,,,
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J_Star
1266 posts
Nov 16, 2007
5:50 AM
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Yes Jerry maybe I am out of my league of knowledge. But my league of knowledge tells me that common sense and rational is the way to go.
We all know and everybody under the sun knows that when you have an object or a creature such as an animal or human being that deviates from the excepted norms are called Freaks. When we find a frog or a turtle that has extra limps or missing limps by birth we blame it on the environment conditions and pollutions in the rivers and we call the freaks. When we find an albino deer in the woods, we call him freak because he deviates from the norm. But when we have a roller that deviated from the norm who do we blame it on? If it is only a handful of fanciers from the thousands of fanciers world wide that have those kinds of birds in their loft does not make it the norm.
I have nothing against crossed birds or color birds, never had. And if people are being offended by such terms like crossed knowing that such birds deviated from the norm and all books and publications through out the history of this hobby don’t show or talk about such birds is beyond me. But I do appreciate Paul’s comments to the kid acknowledging the possibility of them being crossed before he ever had them shows me that he is a better man than me and allot of others. But for a person to stand up and deny such facts that they are indeed deviates from the norm because a person feelings is being scratched when those birds are pointed out to be crossed or mongrels is really over sensitive and childish.
I have muffed birds in my family of rollers and I, myself, like muffs and crested birds but I don’t go out of my way to acquire them or house them just to have them. Most of us fanciers will identify a freak in the nest bowl and cull him right away. I do not use that practice giving the bird an ample chance to prove himself in the air before being considered a cull no matter how ugly, pretty or freak that bird might be. But I identify them as such ugly, pretty or freak.
But to force such birds upon us and push them down our throats as original as they can be is not healthy for a friendly relationship and continued dialog in a friendly atmosphere. That is my take.
Jay
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Missouri-Flyer
946 posts
Nov 16, 2007
6:35 AM
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Understood Jay.
No where in any of my posts did I refer to any of MY birds as pure..Heck, you will never find that word EVER being used by me, at any point in my pigeon history..I have feelings about purity in pigeons, but I will keep that to my self, as I am not 1 that likes to start shit!
With that being said, I have had lightly muffed birds for a few years. My more heavy muffed birds come from father/daughter and mother/son breedings where the parents were lightly muffed, bringing out a heavier muffed offspring.
I will state, and this is a personal opinion, that I dont like muffed birds, BUT, like you, I will keep birds around if they show me the goods...Simple as that.
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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ezeedad
28 posts
Nov 16, 2007
10:48 AM
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Hi Steve...
OK...!!! Now I know who CSRA is.... How's it going?? Good to see you on the list..!!
JStar,
I guess it is time for us to continue our conversation with the mutual respect we have for each others opinions...
First of all, I want to say that my birds are without doubt as pure as anybody elses on this list.
The difference is that I made it a personal goal to produce a family of muffs. I have spent the last ten years making my current family from what ws left of my first muff project.
The reason the muffs have gotten bigger is inbreeding. I guess I might be one of the few breeders who have intentionally made it a project to produce muffed Birminghams..
And I'm glad that our discussion has made it clear to me that I need to refer to them as muffed Birmingham rollers.
All I did was to focus on the characteristic of muffs while using the best birds I could find that carried the trait for feathered feet. I just bred them closely and picked the best ones with feathered feet.
It's just the same way that people now have freaky pigeons like pouters with long stilts for legs, or Jacobins that you can't even see their heads, or fantails, or parlors. I almost forgot about those freaks of nature that spin backwards in the air with inconceivable rapidity...those Birmingham rollers...
Your Friend Paul
Last Edited by on Nov 16, 2007 3:22 PM
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Alan Bliven
375 posts
Nov 16, 2007
11:05 AM
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These recessive muff genes that keep popping up just goes to show that all our Birmingham Rollers are mongrels that are originally the result of crosses between Oriental Rollers, English Muffed Tumblers and other breeds.
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Alan
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COYOTE33
2 posts
Nov 16, 2007
1:32 PM
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OKAY LET ME PUT MY TWO CENTS IN, I CAN VOUCE FOR PAUL
THE BRIDS ARE NOT CROSSED. PAUL HAS BEEN BREEDING THESE
BRIDS FOR MANY YEARS AND HAS NOT CHANGED. THE BIRDS ARE INBREED, THATS WHY HE HAS LARGE MUFFS. THE BIRDS FROM TOM HATCHER ARE NOT THAT HEAVY IN BREED, THE WAY THAT DICK AND TOM BREED WAS NOT AWAYS MUFF TO MUFF IT WAS SOMETIMES AND MOST OF THE TIME CLEAN TO MUFF. THINK OUT SIDE OF THE BOX!
WYLIE, COYOTE
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ezeedad
29 posts
Nov 16, 2007
3:27 PM
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Here are a couple of my youngest muffs...Hope I did better with the pictures this time.
Wylie.. Thanks for verifying to those who have doubts...
Paul
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ICEMAN710
37 posts
Nov 16, 2007
3:56 PM
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wow very nice paul, I like the one on the left the most.
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lionel
33 posts
Nov 16, 2007
3:59 PM
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very nice birds Paul
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Lionel
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elopez
60 posts
Nov 16, 2007
5:47 PM
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Nice birds Paul,
What color would you call the one on the left?
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ezeedad
36 posts
Nov 16, 2007
7:15 PM
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Lionel.
Thanks for the positive feedback. Good luch with the Smiths...1315s.. Ive always been told that a lot of the muff trait came from the Smith birds...
ELopez,
I call that bird an almond, but Doug Brown told me that my birds are actually carrying the qualmond gene, which is a variation almond
Paul g
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