black_hawk_down
48 posts
Nov 24, 2007
8:44 PM
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You guys does it really matter what wing position/type your birds roll??? I mean comm'on! A roll is a roll! Or is it??? If you breed for a specific wing type/position that a bird rolls then isn't it breeding like for ex. "color"?-joe
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
264 posts
Nov 24, 2007
8:51 PM
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JOE, ABSOULUTELY the wing positon is important. The display of higher the wing or no wing showing is the better quality. Bird obtains better muscling.The bird that has it wings down or like a boat oar,is a cull.
R-LUNA
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Donny James
134 posts
Nov 24, 2007
8:59 PM
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hawk,i think the wing position is very in importon just like feeding is I like the "A" position and high "H" position then "H" position and high "X" position and "X" position the "A" position is the best you can get and get your best score from and then high "A" position and etc. and i try try to breed from "A" position and high "H" position ..............donny james
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black_hawk_down
50 posts
Nov 24, 2007
9:14 PM
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So what is soo special about the wing position? Do you score an extra point and bonus prize for your birds in the W/C fly because of good wing position?-joe
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3757
290 posts
Nov 25, 2007
2:59 AM
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Joe - If a person is breeding rollers only to score points this is a sad reason in my opinion. The style of the roll is very important as well as velocity. The standard states as follows: "The true Birmingham roller which turns over backwards with inconceivable rapidity through a considerable distance like a spinning ball." The wing position should be up. Any deviation to this would be incorrect wing position.
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PR_rollers
112 posts
Nov 25, 2007
4:08 AM
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to try and answer your ? ...like Donny ,Richard,and Doc did perfectly...,,,you ask wouldn't it be like breeding for color,,when you breed for color is a different ball game the color doesn't help you roll, but anything that involve rolling does ,wing type muscle's strong back.ect ect-,,,If your bird is rolling with the hole in the middle lets say and A Or H pattern with velocity,quality.sraight and true then he is the right type .breed it ,but stay withen that circle.that helps that bird roll like a perfect spinning ball-hope we help in answering your qustion.-------
Ralph....
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gotspin7
587 posts
Nov 25, 2007
5:00 AM
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Joe, if you breed for better wing position that should help you on your speed and you will get a better cleaner rolling pigeon! Which in turn help you on your speed!LOL, and on a fly it should help on the QUALITY qualifier!
Last Edited by on Nov 25, 2007 6:52 AM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1915 posts
Nov 25, 2007
6:31 AM
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Black Hawk Down says:
“So what is soo special about the wing position? Do you score an extra point and bonus prize for your birds in the W/C fly because of good wing position?-joe”
Hey BHD, I think I know where you might be going with this…In business there is a saying, “What gets monitored gets done”.
In other words, if I, as the employer/manager tell my staff I will fire those who are late for work more than 2 times a week, guess what happens?
The staff arrives early, and I very rarely have a problem with tardiness, as a matter of fact, they arrive early.
If judges rewarded or penalized for this type of quality (wing position), then fanciers will breed for this trait as it has a payoff; good or bad.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1916 posts
Nov 25, 2007
6:41 AM
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Which brings up another question in my mind, rather than compete against each other, what about an individual competition that compares our birds to the "IDEAL" Birmingham Roller?
This way, instead of trying to beat Bob down the road (which is going to be the lowest common denominator), I am endeavoring to lift up and improve my birds toward the "Ideal" which has been previously determined by a governing body.
This is something that can be done year-round, just pay a "sanctioned" judge to come to your place and make the determination on the ground AND in the air! The NBRC could still make money on this.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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gotspin7
595 posts
Nov 25, 2007
6:53 AM
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Tony, I think that is a great idea! I am in!
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1179 posts
Nov 25, 2007
6:56 AM
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I always believed if I raised an H style roller it had everything else it needed.I never knew what an A style was untill Brian Middaugh showed us one while he was here judging last year.I studied that roller since last year and it does appear to me to be much faster in the roll.I think someone said that the higher the wing position the faster the roll.Untill this bird I never thought it made much difference between a high X and H or A now.I love speed so you know where my attention is going to be this year.David
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
267 posts
Nov 25, 2007
7:11 AM
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BLUESMAN, RIGHT ON!! Well another addict. For me, like you ,there is never going back to the mediocore roll. It's about speed and NO not the drug. David wait till you see the spinner that shows NO wing or the one that puts it into overdrive.
R-LUNA
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1917 posts
Nov 25, 2007
7:14 AM
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K.D.Spurling has established the "standard"? ohhhh...
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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CSRA
545 posts
Nov 25, 2007
8:06 AM
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Very good post i agree with sal good job Tony thats what i am talking about
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black_hawk_down
51 posts
Nov 25, 2007
11:31 AM
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Great posts everybody! WOW thanks Velo99 that article was very helpful! Man just when i thought i've learned just about everything there is to learn in this hobby...lol-joe
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1918 posts
Nov 25, 2007
3:25 PM
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Well then, there you go, K.D.Spurling, who once upon a time (2002), was for a brief period going to be my sorta unofficial "reporter at large" for this site, has put to paper, the "ideal" in writing.
Way to go K.D.! Only about 5 years later, without 1 single post has gone on to have the most meaningful post on this site anyway!
K.D., did you ever get to the Black Country and visit all the old roller spots?
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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ezeedad
70 posts
Nov 25, 2007
3:48 PM
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Tony,
Your suggestion of having birds judged exclusively on the basis of the BR standard is one of the best ideas I have heard in a long time. I think this would do more to improve the breed than any other change I can think of...
When I was in the BCRC we came up with a 30 point system:
10 points for speed.
10 points for style
10 points for frequency/depth
The ideal Birmingham roller would be a 30 point bird. When we used this system I think one bird got judged as a 27.
Paul Gomez
Last Edited by on Nov 25, 2007 3:51 PM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1919 posts
Nov 25, 2007
4:01 PM
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Hey dad (if I can call you that! lol), I too like the idea of it, I knew the NBRC has something for certifying spinners, can't say I have given that program much thought. I will study what I can find.
I like your point grading system, it would be cool to see something like this actively and enthusiastically promoted by some national club or entity (World Cup?).
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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ezeedad
75 posts
Nov 25, 2007
7:19 PM
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Laron,
It's really good to hear that the rules are being used and are helpful. We designed them with the intent of trying to award rollers for the qualities that the regular kit competition rules were ignoring.
Thanks, Paul
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3757
302 posts
Nov 25, 2007
7:28 PM
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Thanks Paul.
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Velo99
1918 posts
Nov 20, 2008
5:29 AM
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Heres a nice shot of three birds with proper form and one thats switching wings. Looking at the simple physics here it is easy to see why ()&H pattern birds can roll faster than the others.
Yes I stood spinning in circles with my camera smashed against my face for 30 minutes.I just missed a donut hole. Got like two inches of his tail and a bunch of blue sky. Shot 30 pics and kept three.
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V99
Straight up,no chaser.
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Last Edited by on Nov 20, 2008 10:20 AM
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Flipmode
276 posts
Nov 20, 2008
6:46 AM
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Now thats the perfect form. A+ on the style.
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Alohazona
485 posts
Nov 20, 2008
9:58 AM
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Quickspin,
We are looking at the 30 point system for the 2009 year.Individual flys gets everybody in the game,and its FOCUS is on quality,speed,depth,control.The 20 bird flys have alot of emphasis on breaks.This is why grinchy judges keep twisting themselves in a hole over quality and high subjective scores.So when it is said that is where fanciers are going,fanciers say"I breed for quality first",but what they DOING is breeding for the biggest breaks,while trying to maintain the quality of spin.I don't think I'm twisting words here to support individual flys,I also support 20 bird flys.On 20 bird fly it's all points,breaks and the best quality roller to break on turns and score points.Very few fanciers I know put their birds up were quality,speed,depth,control are their ONLY concern,and say let the points be my last concern,COME WHAT MAY....just an opinion....Aloha,Todd
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Velo99
1919 posts
Nov 20, 2008
10:17 AM
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Pensoms and Jacs Thats just about all I have.
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V99
Straight up,no chaser.
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Velo99
1924 posts
Nov 23, 2008
12:17 PM
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.
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V99
Straight up,no chaser.
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Scott
1271 posts
Nov 23, 2008
1:20 PM
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Todd, that is nothing but backyard flying bullshit to have an excuse not to put them up against the best.
Hawaii is now playing with the big boys, are you playing ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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winwardrollers
35 posts
Nov 23, 2008
1:21 PM
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A system is already in use it is called the 1-2-3 system.
It judges Depth, Quality/style, frequency.
I don't see alot of High Quality factor given out. If you are more concerned about the quality in your birds put the birds up in the air and let the judge give you a 1.8 or 1.9 everyone will see it and know that you have quality birds.
The frequency is important in the 20 competitions because you can then see birds repeating the roll over and over again. A bird rolling a few times with superior quality.. style,speed, depth ...etc is not much when you can have a whole kit doing the same thing.
The wheel has been invented. Just need to use it.
Brad winward
Last Edited by on Nov 23, 2008 3:26 PM
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warpspeed
76 posts
Nov 23, 2008
2:02 PM
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I can't believe how much bullshit the backyard flyer or the one that doesn't compete in flys can come up with. If more of you would get out of your lofts and would get around to see other lofts of the people that actually put them up you might have a different opinion. I stongly believe that the reason their are so many garbage birds out their is because we pick,use and call upon judges that don't know what the hell they are looking at. When this happens it gives flyers the false belief that they acually have something when they don't.This is a performance breed and the only way to test it and make it better is to FLY be it competition or individual. For those who may need some enlightning style is much more important than speed who cares how fast a bird rolls if it rolls with its wings out its garbage just like a bird that switches wing. Style is what lets the bird spin like a tennis ball or golf ball.I would love for all those that put down and knock the competition guys to put on a fly where we fly individual with your rules just so you can see who will come out on top and i will be the first one to take on that challenge.By the way how good is certified spinner if it is judged by people or judges that themselves dont have certified spinners how can the new guy or enthusiast progress.
abel
Last Edited by on Nov 23, 2008 2:09 PM
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gotspin7
2037 posts
Nov 23, 2008
2:41 PM
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Abel, I agree! 100%.. Hey if it is only a California fly off I will let Steve Smith fly for me!!...HA!
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Sal Ortiz
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Scott
1272 posts
Nov 23, 2008
2:45 PM
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(For those who may need some enlightning style is much more important than speed who cares how fast a bird rolls if it rolls with its wings out its garbage just like a bird that switches wing. Style is what lets the bird spin like a tennis ball or golf ball)
Bingo, nice one Abel !
And what is frequecy and depth without Style ? it is a cull in my world.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Nov 23, 2008 2:48 PM
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Alohazona
489 posts
Nov 23, 2008
2:53 PM
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Scott,
Yes ,I did fly 2 kits in the fall fly this year,that's all I had time for.Will also be flying the 2009 20 bird w/c.Scott,re-read my post,that I support the 20 bird flys,but if I choose to do individual bird flys,what the hell business is it of yours.Did someone nominate you as the 20 bird monitor,or something?Scott,nice try,trying to label me as a backyard flyer,you can go to room now,bad boy....Todd
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fhtfire
1672 posts
Nov 23, 2008
2:57 PM
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Nice Post ABel...I agree 100%...I mentioned in the another post that Quality....if the foundation of a good bird..if you have excellent quality the other things will fall into place.....if you have poor quality...the rest is meaningless....rock and ROLL
paul
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Scott
1275 posts
Nov 23, 2008
3:12 PM
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Todd why do birds break together ? The best will always pull the trigger only on the breaks.
On a real team of quality birds the 30 point system doesn't make sence unless you only have a few birds,otherwise you couldn;t keep up with it.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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winwardrollers
36 posts
Nov 23, 2008
3:24 PM
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The wing position is hard for the newbie to see at first.
The higher the wing position the better...its what I look for.
Fly in a comptetion and see if a "roll is a roll"
Thereare some bad Judges out there... but probably a lot more whiners if we took a count.
Brad winward
Last Edited by on Nov 23, 2008 8:19 PM
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Alohazona
490 posts
Nov 23, 2008
7:33 PM
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Scott,
Valid point if we were comparing one fly to replace another,and I am defintely not trying to do that.Yes,good birds will go on the breaks,but that doesn't they are the best,it just means they have a desireable trait for competition.
Scott,I think were straying off the original thrust of my above post.This is a fly that focus's on quality performance of the birmingham Roller.One of the reasons it appeals to me is I do have deep quality birds that hold up.They are not the every day variety you speak so highly of, for the 20 bird ,or maybe they are,i just have not flown them that way[you fight like you train].Now I DO fly in all the competitions,not to make guys like yourself happy,but because with my participation,it has never failed me to take away a small peice of the puzzle about flying a Quality kit of rollers.I might look back at this and have guys like you to thank.As a thinking man, a plotter,a planner, it makes perfect sense to inject types of flys, other than in my own backyard to put up what would think that best individual to be critiqued,whether by itself or picked out in a small kit for stimulation.This may be what helps me be a better flyer in the long run,as I am a die hard roller nut.
This is all about promoting the breed,and the 20 is not the HOLY GRAIL to flying Birminghams.I may very well look back and say the 30 point sucks,but I doubt it as it covers the individual aspect of flying extremely well.The 20 bird is cool,its just another fly and another reason to enjoy the birds,Mahalo's...Todd
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Scott
1277 posts
Nov 23, 2008
8:13 PM
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(good birds will go on the breaks,but that doesn't they are the best,it just means they have a desireable trait for competition.)
It goes much deeper than a desireable trait for competition Todd, it is the nature of the breed when we are talking stability.
Birds that only pull the trigger in a break are birds that are far more apt to fully commit to the roll.
Birds rolling individualy do so due to the roll controls them, and such birds are apt to fight the roll.
As for the 30 point rule, it is amaturist with little thought put into it, there is way to many holes in it to get serious with,the NBRC is a far better option.
As for the 20 bird, you are right, in my mind there is nothing else and anything else is just childs play, but it is no different than any other fly and the integrity of quaity is only as good as the judging.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Nov 23, 2008 8:16 PM
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Flipmode
285 posts
Nov 23, 2008
8:34 PM
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"integrity of quality is only as good as the judging."
Well said Scott... Worth a thousand words.
Last Edited by on Nov 23, 2008 10:48 PM
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Alohazona
491 posts
Nov 23, 2008
9:44 PM
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Scott,
Well said,and I should send you to your room,more often,lol.Scott,level with me on this,holes in a fly are one thing that a solution or resolution can be adopted,that's a small part of the picture.How can we throw judging in the mix,especially where integrity is concerned,when somebody will talk shit about a judge,cast doubt,not fly at all because he doesn't like how someone judges.Some of these very same people accept the score because it is favorable and they know the amount of work they put into it.Scott,to accept the 20 bird or any other fly is to accept whether it is individual,a futurity panel judged fly,what ever else is out there,is to accept that commonly, the birds do the talking,and the judges put a numerical factor next to it to determine a winner with a semblance of integrity.You may never win on this issue,and every time I fly I accept that even though my birds do good or bad,the judge is the judge.If you went to traffic court for a speeding ticket,and decided to explain the reason you thought the officer cited you for speeding, was an illusion and he was momentarily out of his right mind,would it be based on fact,or would it be a subjective thought that he has heard before,over and over again.Depending on how you look,present yourself,conduct yourself in the judges presense all comes into play.Judging will always be an issue good lawyers hope they get a judge in particular ,or a sympythetic jury.Scott one things for sure we do not pick the judges but they are subjectively judging us from the they lay eyes on us to the time they leave our sight and beyond.The judges are the judges,the flys are what we make of them,doesn't matter the number of birds or a couple of iffy rules.If you have prepared the birds to the rules as you understand them,that is all you can do,but it does not make one better than the other,it's an enjoyable hobby,COME WHAT MAY....Aloha,Todd
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PAUL R.
16 posts
Nov 23, 2008
10:58 PM
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ABEL, JUST ANOTHER PERSON AGREEING WITH YOU. IT TOOK SOME TIME TO REALIZE WHAT THE JUDGES WERE LOOKING FOR IN A BIRD AND A PERFORMANCE KIT. I DID PARTICIPATE IN THE FALL FLY & WORLD CUP FLY.
WE HAD "CARL HARDESTY" JUDGING OUR REGION AND THE FIRST 2-FLIERS THAT HE JUDGED I WASNT SEEING WHY HE WAS SCORING THE WAY HE DID. UNTILL HE JUDGED J.J RANSOM IS WHEN MY EYES OPENED TO JUDGING. THIS GAVE ME A BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT IT TOOK TO SCORE.
THIS WOULD NOT HAD HAPPENED IF I WAS A BACKYARD FLIER.
====BUT IT TOOK ME TO SEE OTHER PEOPLE COMPETE====
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RodSD
62 posts
Nov 23, 2008
11:09 PM
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Maybe there should be 3 judges each judging different aspects of rollers' performance. I think in gymnastic there is a technical judge, creativity judge and some other judges. But the result is still controversial. LOL!
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gotspin7
2047 posts
Nov 24, 2008
5:45 AM
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Rod, even if you had 5 judges things would not change!...lol..
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Sal Ortiz
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j .wanless
483 posts
Nov 24, 2008
6:52 AM
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hi all
been reading through all your posts .have you ever thought that if you are all noticing your birds wings when they are rolling that just maybe theyre not rolling as good as you think they are.theres quite alot of top quality flyers in my area.when we are watching the real top quality birds no one ever notices the wings as you tend not to be able to see thier wings when they are rolling.on another point someone mentioned having 5 judges.here in the uk we used to have 3 judges all judging the kit.then we would add all 3 scores together then devide the score by 3.sometimes it worked well + other times it was laughable.so i would say to you better to agree or disagree with 1 judge than 3.
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Alohazona
492 posts
Nov 24, 2008
9:36 AM
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Sal,
You are probably right,much would not change.When we panel judged some days every body were watching the birds intently,and the next time 1 guy was playing with a gecko on a block wall during the fly,lol.I still don't mind the panel style as long as their is a little pep talk to pay attention while the birds are called in....Aloha,Todd
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Velo99
1930 posts
Nov 24, 2008
6:17 PM
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I know it is kinda tricky but practice makes perfect. Take a lot of pics while your birds are flying. I see a lot of perch pics but very few fly pics. Someone said on another thread...they do have wings ya know.
Its a lot easier to analyze their performances ie... wing position,kit position when they start rolling ect. Also makes it easier to ID a bird when he is in a pic.
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V99
Straight up,no chaser.
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\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__66___()_)\__\
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RodSD
65 posts
Nov 24, 2008
7:00 PM
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If 3 judges think that your birds suck, then your birds must really suck!
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Spin City USA
117 posts
Nov 24, 2008
7:24 PM
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I dont think the good flyers are watching the wings too close. Whenever I see a good break what stands out to me is the birds that switch, axel or deviate from what is correct.
When a kit that performs in unison with the right style is working it makes the junk stand out and spoil the performance.
They gotta Spin to win.....Jay
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George R.
1179 posts
Nov 24, 2008
7:44 PM
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"I can't believe how much bullshit the backyard flyer or the one that doesn't compete in flys can come up with. If more of you would get out of your lofts and would get around to see other lofts of the people that actually put them up you might have a different opinion"
Well said Abel that is the truth ...
george
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Velo99
1931 posts
Nov 24, 2008
7:58 PM
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Spot on Spin
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V99
Straight up,no chaser.
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donnie james
40 posts
Nov 24, 2008
8:02 PM
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hay joe i go for a high "H" or better that the best you can get the judges i talk looks for that in the roll and they said the best there is...............donny james
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JMUrbon
621 posts
Nov 24, 2008
8:33 PM
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You know I have had rollers most of my life. I have been to guys lofts that were into the 100-200 footers and I have been to the lofts that wanted a bunch of 10 foot birds that break together. I personally have found my liking to be a single perfect A style spinner. I can work with that and build off that. The H and X style will score and that is all that is important to some. Unfortunately for them they are truely missing the boat. I will take a single A style 30 footer over 10 H style rollers any day of the week.
For those breeding for the A style they can attest to the fact that they do reproduce their style. So do yourselves a favor and if you get the oportunity. Breed heavy for it. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
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