ezeedad
133 posts
Dec 06, 2007
5:02 PM
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We surely must have the technology now in 2007/8 to come up with a device that can measure the RPMs of a roller. After all we have very small cell phones that can send and receive voices, images and all kinds of data. This imformation can be sent hundreds or thousands of miles...
My idea is to have a small transmitter, or signaling device of some type, possibly something that could send the change of positive to negative magnetic polarity to a receiver which could then, in real time give a read-out of the birds "velocity". As the birds spins, the reversals of the magnetic field could be measured and the number of reversals per second would be the measurment of the birds spin.
I thought of this a long while ago, when I was in the BCRC, but it seemed to be like science fiction then. Now I'm sure it can be done.
This could bring a real measurement to our judging of rollers, just as racing homers have the clock.
Paul Gomez
Last Edited by on Dec 06, 2007 5:06 PM
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Skylineloft
509 posts
Dec 06, 2007
5:07 PM
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Paul,
That might be possible, one thing I have done is video the bird. The you can count the revolutions per second. Others have done this as well.
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
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CSRA
681 posts
Dec 06, 2007
5:08 PM
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That is interesting when u come up with something let me know
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ezeedad
134 posts
Dec 06, 2007
5:10 PM
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Yes Ray,
I know that has been done and we've gotten some good information from that. Possibly the video could be used to judge both speed and style..
Paul
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ezeedad
135 posts
Dec 06, 2007
5:12 PM
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Steve,
I need help with the technology..
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CSRA
688 posts
Dec 06, 2007
5:44 PM
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I need help to if theres anything i can do let me know Paul
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ezeedad
136 posts
Dec 06, 2007
5:48 PM
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I was thinking... There must already be something out there.. I just found this after a quick search.
Micro Transmitter: This tiny transmitter is now the "Ideal Tail Mount" for all sized birds. It weighs only 3.5 grams with the battery yet is a high-power, long range design putting 1/3 the weight on a single tail feather. Unlike other transmitters using very small batteries, the new Micro doesn't fade out or die in low temperature situations. It is perfect for small specialty birds: Merlins, sharp-shinned hawks and other extremely small raptors. The Micro also contains the magnetic 'tap on/tap off' switch. The half-length 7-inch antenna provides improved power and efficiency over the old Micro.The Micro comes equipped with a fine antenna. If you plan on using this transmitter on birds over 16 oz, we recommend you order the standard size antenna. See the product sheet for switching antennas.
Range: 2 to 25 miles, depending on type of terrain and obstructions.
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Skylineloft
511 posts
Dec 06, 2007
5:48 PM
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Paul,
It might be something as simple as one of those walking counters. Just modified to count every time it goes through a complete turn.
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
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gotspin7
748 posts
Dec 06, 2007
5:57 PM
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interesting Paul!
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Sal Ortiz
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Skylineloft
512 posts
Dec 06, 2007
6:00 PM
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Where did you pull up that info Paul ?
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
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ezeedad
138 posts
Dec 06, 2007
8:34 PM
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The WST2 is a remarkable 2 stage micro-transmitter. The power output of these are incredible for their size.
Last Edited by on Dec 06, 2007 8:45 PM
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smk
61 posts
Dec 06, 2007
8:40 PM
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Paul it seems that you may be on to something i think you should pursue it and apply for patent may you could be flying rollers full time ,if you know what i mean....lol...
scott
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1976 posts
Dec 06, 2007
8:52 PM
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Here is my idea; a "Velocimeter".
Since we are talking about velocity, imagine a small thin glass tube, similar to a thermometer that can be attached to a pigeons back or leg.
It has a thick gel or fluid inside with a tiny ball bearing at one end or probably in the middle, when attached to the roller and it spins with a certain velocity, centrifugal force moves the ball bearing down the shaft of the small glass tube.
Each "Velocimeter" tube is calibrated with a specific viscosity gel that only allows the ball bearing to move down the tube when a specific velocity has been reached during performance. This movement would be calibrated to RPM's.
There could be multiple gels to measure various levels of velocity.
This idea could be worked on by anyone who has a knack for tinkering and wants to develop such a simple but possibly revolutionary new roller pigeon judging tool.
RPDC Presents: The Velocimeter!
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
Last Edited by on Dec 06, 2007 8:58 PM
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ezeedad
139 posts
Dec 06, 2007
9:14 PM
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Tony,
I see you have a very inventive mind.. I don't see how your idea will measure RPMs though.. Wouldn't the bird rolling with a hole be generating more centrifugal force (outward) than one spinning in a ball?..provided that they were both making the same RPMs?
I have another pic... Hope I'm not overdoing it.
P.S. That's not "the bird" with the transmitter... lol
The transmitter is arrayed for a tail mount on a very small
bird. This is a complete rig with battery, transmitter and
aerial. Believe it or not, this micro-transmitter has an
above-ground trackable range of 1-2 kilometres.
Last Edited by on Oct 29, 2008 3:32 PM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1977 posts
Dec 06, 2007
10:29 PM
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Thanks dad! LOL
dad said
".. I don't see how your idea will measure RPMs though.. Wouldn't the bird rolling with a hole be generating more centrifugal force (outward) than one spinning in a ball?..provided that they were both making the same RPMs?"
I am not quite clear exactly what you mean. But let me try to explain some more. An object rotating around an axis is going to generate centrifugal force, whether the bird is rotating with a hole or spinning like a ball.
My point is that the faster the performance past a predetermined RPM threshold, the ball in the tube moves...
The RPM's needed to move the ball bearing in a tube could be determined based upon a predetermined viscosity of the gel in the tube or size/weight of the metal ball as measured by a spinning device like perhaps a laboratory centrifuge.
BTW, maybe the glass tubes used for a centrifuge could be used? Anyway, this was my thought on this.
As far as over doing it, no way, this is interesting to discuss.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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luis
381 posts
Dec 06, 2007
11:01 PM
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Alright guys,but how long would it take the judge to check out your kit with these new devices????and what if they rolldown and break!! LOL...........
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ezeedad
140 posts
Dec 06, 2007
11:17 PM
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Okay Tony,
Let me give you an example of what I'm saying about the centrifugal force.... Take two objects of the same weight,
suspended on strings, and swing them around in circles,each lets say at 1 revolution per second, but one
has a longer string. The one with the longer string will
be going farther in each revolution..therefore it will also
be going faster, and the string holding it will be pulled
tighter by the force of the object.
The same is true of the force affecting a bird when it rolls with a hole. The entire mass of the bird is going around an open space, so it actually is going farther than the bird spinning like a ball or like a top, and more force is acting on its' body. Also, that's why some birds actually accelerate and they appear to shrink as the hole gets smaller and dissappears.
It's also kind of like the ice skater spinning around, and when they pull their arms and legs inward they spin faster.
Hope I explained this clearly..
Paul
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ezeedad
141 posts
Dec 06, 2007
11:21 PM
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Steve, Thanks for the offer to help..
Luis, I think a receiver could make the measurements while the birds are rolling. Each roll might be different. I don't know about measuring multiple birds.. I just want to figure one bird first...
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J_Star
1422 posts
Dec 07, 2007
6:07 AM
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Also don't forget to include a GPS attached to a leg so we can locate missing birds.
Jay
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ezeedad
142 posts
Dec 07, 2007
9:57 AM
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Jay,
These microtransmitters are already being used to track wild animals. The smallest ones can be used on small birds, shrews and bats.
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Oldfart
286 posts
Dec 07, 2007
10:50 AM
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Hey All, My wife's triathlon bike has a very small cadance counting computer, it is triggered by two magnets passing each other for each revolution, which in turn gives R.P.M. and M.P.H. The transmited signal would have to provide a magnetic impulse however it was gathered but it's cheap,14 bucks, and could probably be adapted to our purpose. Just food for thought.
Thom
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1979 posts
Dec 07, 2007
11:51 AM
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Yes, I see what you mean about the different string lengths. BUT!, if the glass tube was placed in the same position on the back of each bird to be measured, the starting point would be the same. In other words, the string is the same length on all the birds.
So, a bird rolling at say 100RPM, would not move the ball, whereas a bird rolling at 200RPM would cause the ball to move off zero.
So in essence, the 2 objects being measured are at the end of the same length of the string. Just one is turning more rapidly, and isn't what we are trying to measure? Velocity.
As long as every bird is starting at the same point or same length of string, the measuring works. No?
==
If a bird crashes, the tubes are cheap, use another one. Place one on each kit bird, when they come in, measure the movement off zero and add it up, give points based on an objective and "scientific" measure.
==
As for the transmitter, I just don't understand how it will be able to measure revolutions. Someone will have to explain it to me better.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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ezeedad
143 posts
Dec 07, 2007
2:46 PM
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Tony,
I guess we have two different ideas. I want to transmit the RPMs each time the bird rolls. I think that if an impulse or fluctuation can be received from the transmitter, then the number of fluctuations per unit of time would give the RPMs of the bird... I made a little sketch to illustrate.
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1980 posts
Dec 07, 2007
4:16 PM
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Hey is that TAIL-FLEX!? LOL
Okay dad, I see what you mean (nice sketch!). A potential problem that I detect might be that the transmitted signal is constant (like a transistor radio), how would the signal be stopped and started so that a receiver can record the alternating signal?
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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ezeedad
144 posts
Dec 07, 2007
5:56 PM
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Tony, what I thought was that when the bird rolls the transmitter would alternately point away from the receiver and towards it. So it would be sending a sort of off and on signal. But I can also see that it wouldn't work all the time. When the bird is sideways it wouldn't work. The bird would have to be facing towards the receiver or away from it, I guess.
Paul
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LazzzyJJ
1 post
Dec 07, 2007
5:58 PM
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Paul, Excellent idea!! Surley the technology is out there. He are some ideas.
For the transmitter a custom design maybe, possibly use a clasp that acts as a band for the leg, maybe padded on the inside edge? Hopefully the antenna will be minimal. If the reciever could pick up multiple signals at a time, the whole kit could have transmitters on. I think a person could write a computer program to show the display on a monitor in real time. If GPS was used to show elevation, the computer could track the kit as a unit and show how tight they are kitting, individual perfromance, how deep the spins are, the velocity of each bird, thier elevation, how many spin at once {in other words the computer could tell you when the kit scores points for a turn}. Just some ideas, the hard part is designing a transmitter that can do this. Good luck, JJ
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ezeedad
145 posts
Dec 07, 2007
6:14 PM
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JJ,.... HAVE YOU BEEN READING MY MIND..??
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1981 posts
Dec 07, 2007
6:16 PM
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I'm wearing my tin foil hat around you guys! LOL
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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Missouri-Flyer
1076 posts
Dec 07, 2007
6:24 PM
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at this point, the judges can judge from their living rooms!..LOL
Welcome JJ
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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ezeedad
146 posts
Dec 07, 2007
6:43 PM
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Jerry, You must be reading my mind too!!
Tony, I guess this means that great minds spin in the same circles...
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1987 posts
Dec 08, 2007
8:46 AM
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Okay, dads sketch above got me thinking, it could be a radar gun hooked up to a laptop to record data reflected back from metal type signal reflectors (foil?) attached to a critical point or points on a roller pigeon…(leg, wing tip, elbow, tail, etc)
So I have been doing some research and looking at devices that measure speed and velocity for RC toys, car radar, speed of pitched baseballs…things like that.
If the size of the device that is reflecting the signal from the bird to the reading device is critical, then perhaps a radar gun used on a kit that has little sensors attached to each bird, i.e, a metal leg band or metal foil wrapped around a leg…would measure “activity” and the rate of speed/velocity within this activity…
A system like this that is setup properly might measure and record a number of data streams necessary for scoring a kit in competition:
1: number of birds in a break
2: length of time or depth the activity was recorded
3: maybe with testing, “quality” performance might have a radar “signature” that could be applied to a score
A computer program could interpret the data and provide a score in seconds, it could even have a hook up to a display monitor so that the gathered audience could watch the flyers score in real time!
If this could workout, then we are not that far from having a practical and easy scientific method for scoring a kit of rollers in competition. A system like this could have many implications to the future of flying roller pigeons…any thoughts?
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1988 posts
Dec 08, 2007
8:57 AM
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Heck, if an idea like radar has any merit, then the NBRC could take some of those funds its been saving and invest in developing the technology and scoring systems for the Fall Fly.
It would be like having the SAME judge tirelessly score each and every kit entered (think of the implications of that!).
This could also be given to the World Cup. Just another idea...
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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LazzzyJJ
2 posts
Dec 08, 2007
12:19 PM
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Tony, I am wondering if any of the Donek pigeon flyers {Nose Divers} have used the radar gun to record thier speed in a dive. Some claim they can dive upto 70 mph or more. I have never had any, but wonder how they measure thier speed. Maybe some of the Donek clubs or other nosediving breed clubs may have info. on using a radar gun, or other method they use to tell the speed of a dive. If a system liked this worked the judge could focus on the style and quality of the rollers and let the computer keep track of scoring the turns. LOL JJ
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Skylineloft
515 posts
Dec 08, 2007
12:27 PM
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BMC has talked about radar in the past,
He said he could never get a good reading from it.
All these things you bring up sound like they could be possible but will also be very expensive when it come down to the research and development of this product.
Not to discourage anyone wanting to try to make this work, but, after you spend thousands of dollars in development trying to get this to work accurately, there is just a small market for the product when it comes to selling it.
I worked in new product development for close to twenty years in the toy industry. This sounds very expensive to me with not much chance of breaking even as far as a product goes. I would love to be proven wrong on this one because it would be something that I would purchase if it worked correctly.
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
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LazzzyJJ
3 posts
Dec 08, 2007
1:25 PM
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Ray, you may be right about the cost of development. I can see where it could get very expensive if something has to be custom designed for this. Do you know if BMC had a transmitter or any device attached to the bird he was trying to radar? Hopefully we can find someone who knows alot about radar, GPS, transmitters,ect. Maybe with the right questions we can find out if it would work with out to much cost into it. Maybe there is a device already in production that would work for the transmitter on the bird? If people keep sending in ideas, maybe one will be worth trying out? JJ
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Skylineloft
516 posts
Dec 08, 2007
1:46 PM
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BMC posts on earls.
You should be able to ask him about it on there. This subject came up last year and he had made some comments on using radar.
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
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Canspinners
5 posts
Dec 08, 2007
3:44 PM
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I wonder if a radar gun will work it meassures cars ,baseballs and hockey pucks should work for a pigeon
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ezeedad
147 posts
Dec 08, 2007
5:51 PM
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Tony,
That foil hat sure must be working..!! Having a
reflecting point or device of some type which a radar gun
could read would probably work if the reflections can be
counted. I think radar guns use doppler, so all they can
read is velocity.
The micro transmitters that are used for wildlife cost
only about 10$ or 12$, I believe. The receivers are about
225$ or so...don't quote me... I don't have time to check
right now (fight nite). I plan on trying to get some
technical help from a company that makes the products I
found. Maybe we'll work this out...
I'm glad more interest is coming in on this..
Paul
Last Edited by on Dec 08, 2007 5:52 PM
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ezeedad
148 posts
Dec 09, 2007
12:59 PM
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Thom,
I have been thinking about the bicycle counter with the magnets. It works because there is 1 manget that doesn't move and the other magnet passes it on every turn of the wheel. So it counts every time the magnet passes the other. But I can't figure out how to adapt this to a bird.
Gomez
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Skylineloft
522 posts
Dec 09, 2007
3:58 PM
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Paul,
That sounds like a good direction to look into for this project.
If you are serious about developing this product, I think I can can hook you up with people that have much more knowledge then we do in this field. But, they are not cheap by any means but do know what they are doing. Please feel free to contact me, rollers@mac.com
Just so you know, IM not looking to try and get in on any profits that might be made from this. Just trying to help....
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
Last Edited by on Dec 09, 2007 4:56 PM
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Oldfart
292 posts
Dec 09, 2007
4:40 PM
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ezeedad, I did not mean to use the magnets on a bird but as a possible cheap computor to interpret the data once received. It counts revolutions and converts them to MPH or recalabrated possibly to volicity. I'm no electronic wizz just throwing out ideas.
Thom
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Donny James
178 posts
Dec 09, 2007
8:29 PM
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well i been thinking on this for a week or so i'll try to explain it the best i can i could be wrong on this but here it goes i read and talk to a few guys and i came up with it will takes about 14 to 18 revolutions per foot to get a spin and every 1 second is a foot and thats how i do it and don't myself in trouble on this................donny james
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ezeedad
149 posts
Dec 10, 2007
10:50 AM
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Ray,
You seem to be the guy with the connections right now.
I am not interested in taking this on as a business venture.
I don't think the market is large enough to make it profitable. But I would imagine that there must be some
products out there that we could patch together for a
reasonable price to do this. Do you think you might be able to pick some minds?... tactfully of course.
I found an example of a possible component... Cheap too!! A wireless booster antenna.. I think people use it to get use of other peoples routers... but I looks pretty adaptable to other uses..
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ezeedad
150 posts
Dec 10, 2007
10:55 AM
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I found this illustration of a leg mounted transmitter.
It is shown on a falcons' leg, but I think they are available for pigeon size birds and smaller..
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Skylineloft
539 posts
Dec 11, 2007
6:52 PM
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Paul,
I made a couple of phone calls and picked the brains of guys that have been doing this kind of stuff for over 20 years. What I was told that if you wanted to try to develop something like this it will probably run anywhere from 10,000 to 30,000 and up. One guy did tell me that he did work on a golf club that would measure the velocity of your swing, but they did end up running into patent issues on this product as well. He did mention something about a excelometer, not quit sure what that is but you might want to google it and see if you come up with anything. There is also a product out there that counts the RPM on small R/C plain motors. Not quite sure how you could adapt that to this project but i thought I would through that in there in case anyone has a idea on how to use it for this project. I still think the best way to do this is just pull out your video camera and record your best bird. This is one way of counting how many times the bird will spin in one second. I hope this helps out and if you have any questions, please feel free to call or e-mail me Paul.
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
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3757
393 posts
Dec 11, 2007
7:06 PM
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Paul - This is a great idea and worth investigating further.
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Skylineloft
543 posts
Dec 11, 2007
7:18 PM
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Look at this....
http://www.medicuspowermeter.com/land01b.php?sid=43810
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
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ezeedad
152 posts
Dec 11, 2007
7:31 PM
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Ray,
I've been doing a lot of searching on the web... They're doing a lot of amazing things with radar and remote sensing, so it's been an education.. and I have written a few e-mails and made a couple calls trying to get help on this.
The rpm counter is what we need... Do you know how this works? Do the planes transmit a signal?
I don't intend to spend 10,000$ or more on this.. I might go for a few hundred...LOL... but seriously, I think if we could find some student who is working in this field, maybe they would want to take it on as a project.. I might try calling colleges..
Thanks for looking into this,
Paul
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2000 posts
Dec 11, 2007
7:53 PM
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Okay, check this out:
Miniature's Optical Heli TACHOMETER
"Here's a tool that's extremely useful! Ever wonder how the "pros" know exactly what the head speed is (rotor RPM's) on their heli? They measure it!
The oldest tach for helis is this one, from Miniature Aircraft. Simply have a helper sight thru the tach while you fly. By adjusting the "Increase/Decrease" switch you find a setting where the blades are optically "stopped" and that's the RPM - displayed in the large, easy to read "RPM" window.
Includes protective case AND - get this - battery IS included and installed!
The Display shows 4 digits (last one is always 0) and the viewing window is slightly larger than the Model Avionics unit."
Are we getting closer?
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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Skylineloft
545 posts
Dec 11, 2007
8:17 PM
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Electronics have always been my weak point when it comes to creating ideas. Although I do have a few patents in my name in that field, I can assure you its not because I specialize in this field. If there is any way I can help, feel free to ask but I feel like the one eyed man leading the blind in areas like this. Keep on pushing Paul, A local collage just might be the place to get something like this developed.
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
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