smoke747
156 posts
Dec 14, 2007
8:35 AM
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SOME OF MY BEST STOCK COCKS ARE THOSE THAT I DID NOT FLY IN BUT STOCK FROM THE NEST.
I FEEL TO BE SUCCESSFUL A BREEDER MUST BE ABLE TO SPOT A GOOD ONE FROM HIS LINE WITH OUT SEEING IT FLY ESPECIALLY WHERE THE BOPS ARE BAD.
HOW DO GUYS FEEL ABOUT THIS OR WHAT ARE YOUR EXPERIENCES?
SMOKE747
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elopez
133 posts
Dec 14, 2007
8:44 AM
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Well, my best producer is a cock that was never flown "599". You picked him out for me, so I guess I have to agree, that you do have an eye for the good ones... but it did help that his brothers and sisters were tearring up the sky...
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
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hectorvicki2003@yaho
122 posts
Dec 14, 2007
8:56 AM
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I prefer to pick them in the air,but i have stocked a few strait out of the breeding loft,usualy its from a very old bird.i stocked the only youngster i got out of a 19 year old bird this year from a original Frank Lavin bird, grandson of 2564,that bird will never fly but i whould never mate it to another bird i didnt see fly.
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Hector Coya
Last Edited by on Dec 14, 2007 8:57 AM
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CSRA
743 posts
Dec 14, 2007
8:59 AM
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Keith all my top birds were not flown but the offspring were and it has work for me i would say 98% never flew i just pull 1 this year and 1 in 05 that i really like but for the most part could have been more but bop has taken them
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smoke747
161 posts
Dec 14, 2007
9:10 AM
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CSRA, MY POINT EXACTLY. HOW FAR SHEAD COULD WE GET IF ALL THE REAL GOOD ONES GET SNATCHED? WE LEARN OUR FAMILY OF BIRDS GOOD ENUFF TO READILY SPOT THE GOOD ONES IN AN EFFORT TO SAVE ONE HERE AND THERE. AS WE ALL KNOW THE BOPS LOVE THE GOOD ONES.
SMOKE747
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smoke747
165 posts
Dec 14, 2007
9:44 AM
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HECTOR, THAT OLD BIRD MUST COME OUT OF THE B. SCOTT STUFF.
SMOKE747
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Missouri-Flyer
1101 posts
Dec 14, 2007
1:10 PM
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If your pulling birds from the nest, and never letting them out to fly, at that young of an age, can you honestly say that it is better than any other you bred and flew, just by looking at it at that young?..I doubt it..Do what works for ya..I NEVER pull them without flying..Works for me
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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SiDLoVE
86 posts
Dec 14, 2007
1:30 PM
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Hi Keith, I have seen you around am always crusing with Joe Emberton to the shows. In regards to your question i think you already know your birds well and know which ones are PREPOTENT, HIGH PERCENTAGE AND USUALLY TURN OUT TO BE GOOD ANYWAYS,
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CSRA
750 posts
Dec 14, 2007
4:17 PM
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Missouri Flyer how long have you had your family of birds and do you fly against anyone in your area if so how do they do as far as comp.
Last Edited by on Dec 14, 2007 4:18 PM
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Skylineloft
561 posts
Dec 14, 2007
4:21 PM
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Almost every stock bird in my loft was never flown.
I bred some real good ones out of them this year, NO REGRETS......
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
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Donny James
186 posts
Dec 14, 2007
5:12 PM
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hay smoke if their out of proven pairs i will stock then without flying them...............donny james
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smoke747
171 posts
Dec 14, 2007
6:45 PM
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JERRY, I'M TALKING ABOUT IN THE BREEDING LOFT.
THEY PRODUCE BETTER THAN SOME OF THEIR SIBLINGS THAT WERE FLOWN. I FEEL, ONCE A BIRD IS IN THE STOCK LOFT HIS PERFORMANCE DOSE NOT MATTER IF HE/SHE CAN'T PRODUCE THE SAME OR BETTER. SO BACK TO THE KIT IT GOES.
SMOKE747
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bigbull
9 posts
Dec 14, 2007
10:36 PM
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KEITH
LAST YEAR BOP WAS ON A MISSION,SNATCHING LIKE YOU SAID.. SO I LOCKED UP MY BIRDS
NO FLYING FOR ME SO ALL MY YOUNG BIRDS GOT OLDER AND STARTED BREEDING ON THERE OWN..THESE BIRDS PRODUCED
SOME REAL ACTION.IHAVE RUBY'S ALSO THAT I WILL BE BREEDINGS NEXT YEAR.IWAS GOING TO GIVE SOME OF THOSE BIRDS THAT NEVER FLEW TO A FRIEND.. I FLEW THOSE SQAUBS ALL THIS YEAR ...IHAVE FOUR KITS OF THESE BIRDS....MY ANSWER IS YES I STOCK FROM THE NEST...
BIG BULL
SOUTH CENTRAL FLYING
Last Edited by on Dec 14, 2007 10:43 PM
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Missouri-Flyer
1105 posts
Dec 15, 2007
2:01 AM
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CSRA,
if you click on my name, it will give you the time frame of my birds..Also, yes I fly club comp..You will have to ask some of the club members who frequent this site to answer your question as far as how they perform.
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
693 posts
Dec 15, 2007
4:44 AM
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Zupppppppp Champppppppppppp.................
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RUDY PAYEN
PANCHO VILLA LOFT
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CSRA
751 posts
Dec 15, 2007
6:10 AM
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Good job Mizzo flyer good luck with your family
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gotspin7
814 posts
Dec 15, 2007
6:11 AM
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Keith, I have done it in the past and I only do it when the bird or birds are jammed up out of a known producer that is no longer hitting and if it is a hen laying!LOL
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Sal Ortiz
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Missouri-Flyer
1107 posts
Dec 15, 2007
8:19 AM
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ZUUPPPPPPPP Pancho?
Get them new birds out of the box yet?....LOL
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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classicpony
604 posts
Dec 15, 2007
10:49 AM
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Smoke747,
I gotta fly, I just don't have the ability to pick any cock out and say HIM! He is a great bird. Most birds have to prove there value to me.
Jim
Illinois
Last Edited by on Dec 15, 2007 5:52 PM
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Missouri-Flyer
1115 posts
Dec 15, 2007
11:20 AM
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Hey Jim,
Reading your last post makes me believe your staying warm with a shot or 2 of vodka...maybe?..LOL
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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PR_rollers
257 posts
Dec 15, 2007
11:34 AM
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lmao Jerry...I was thinking the same thing ..
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Ralph....
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classicpony
608 posts
Dec 15, 2007
5:56 PM
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MO Flyer,
LMAO
I some editing on that, your right that was awful. No whiskey shots, just me typing slower then my train of thought. Making it come up a few words short here an there. WOW that was bad, it sure made me look like I was drinking....
Jim
Illinois
Last Edited by on Dec 15, 2007 5:59 PM
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elopez
145 posts
Dec 16, 2007
1:12 AM
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Keith couldn't agree with more. If the bird isn't doing its job in the breeding loft, I have no use for it there, but I could sure use it in my kit.
As you know almost most of my birds were never flown, but I got them all from you and as Sid said you know your birds and what they can do and produce so based on that you'll be able to tell somewhat on how they will perform. Most breeders that have been working with the same family should have a good idea on how the offspring will perform.
Now that I have the breeders that I want, I'm stocking from the air unless you send me some of your breeding we talked about.
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
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J_Star
1480 posts
Dec 17, 2007
6:32 PM
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You have to look at the character of the bird. Is he dominant or passive!! If the bird is dominant, rest assured that his genes will be passed more often than not. Pair him with a passive hen and you will have great success. Pair his best daughter back to him and you will have outstanding sucess. It is not a secret...it is just the way it is.
Jay
Last Edited by on Dec 17, 2007 7:20 PM
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axelrod
1 post
Dec 21, 2007
8:14 AM
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Stocking from the nest is a plan for mediocre birds. Learn to foster the hell out of your PROVEN breeders and plan for losses. If you never saw it fly then you're literally talking about something you don't know.
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CSRA
848 posts
Dec 21, 2007
8:48 AM
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do you think get away with one or two generations stocking from the nest
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J_Star
1516 posts
Dec 21, 2007
8:55 AM
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When you have a family exhibit uniformity, you are able to stock from the nest if you know what you are doing. It might not lead you with high percentage of good birds but it is doable. I don't practice it since my breeders were flawn for 2 seasons before being selected.
Jay
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Missouri-Flyer
1128 posts
Dec 21, 2007
9:09 AM
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Welcome Axelrod,
As I have stated, I believe if you stock from unflown birds, in due time, you will be setting yourself up for a pen full of shit... How can you say that you can breed from an unflown bird, when we ALL breed junk/culls/stiffs,etc...so with that said, how can you say that you are not breeding from a cull/stiff/outbird/early lander/tree sitter/non performing bird, when you are breeding from a bird that you know ZERO about?..You guys that do it that way are pushing your luck, simple as that, BUT, good luck improving your pens.
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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ezeedad
177 posts
Dec 21, 2007
10:43 AM
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I believe that if you have a closely bred family you will get a higher percentage of the charcteristics that you have selected for. Your birds will also have their own family traits and appearance which the breeder can use to predict the value of the bird.
Using these characteristics you can both cull from the nest as well as pick the better birds from the nest.
On the other hand, if your birds are not closely bred you will need to rely more heavily on the performance of the roller when choosing for stock.
Also, being a good performer does not necessarily mean being a good producer....and vice versa..
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Skylineloft
618 posts
Dec 21, 2007
10:55 AM
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Well put DAD!!!!!!!!!
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
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smoke747
258 posts
Dec 21, 2007
11:05 AM
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good post paul. stocking birds from the nest is not something i do all the time. i do every once in a while, say 2 birds every 2 -3 yrs. when i 3/4 or 7/8 a bird , i don't fly them. those are for stock.
smoke747
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CSRA
849 posts
Dec 21, 2007
11:58 AM
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Words spoken so smooth an so true, extremely good job paul
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JMUrbon
307 posts
Dec 21, 2007
11:59 AM
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I would have to say that I personally do not make a habbit out of stocking birds that have not shown me the goods in the air. That does not mean that it doesnt work and has not been done with some success. It is just not something I like to do. I have been breeding this family of birds plenty long enough and they have proven themselves in many local and national cometitions so it just all boils down to the breeded and what he/she prefers to practice. JMHO but neither way is wrong just different approaches to the same goal. ( Hopefully ) LOL. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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smoke747
259 posts
Dec 21, 2007
12:12 PM
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well spoken jmu.
smoke747
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CSRA
856 posts
Dec 21, 2007
12:15 PM
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Right on Joe good explanation
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2017 posts
Dec 21, 2007
12:32 PM
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Hey Jerry, interesting...when you patrol, are there not clues in the people and situations you see that tip you off to no good?
If so, how do you account for this innate awareness?
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2018 posts
Dec 21, 2007
12:33 PM
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Hey dad, could not have said it any better. Good post!
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2019 posts
Dec 21, 2007
12:35 PM
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Hey Joe, good post, I like your balanced view. Thanks!
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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ezeedad
179 posts
Dec 21, 2007
2:44 PM
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Keith, Steve. Tony,
Thanks. Good to get this co-sign from people whos opinions I respect.
Joe, I have to respect your opinion too... Well said.
Paul
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quickspin
197 posts
Dec 21, 2007
3:10 PM
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Life is a Risk!
When I purchase some of my stock birds they were not flown because they were out of good stock. This is bad and good because you will not loose the bird and you don't know exactly what this bird do in the air. You could of purchase a champion and the breeder not even knowing this or a cull. You can always put the offspring to the test and find out.
Not always your best kit bird produce good offspring and is only good as a kit bird.
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smoke747
262 posts
Dec 21, 2007
4:03 PM
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the bad thing about stocking from the nest, unlike flown birds,if they don't work out in the loft they can't go sraight back to the kit.
smoke747
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JMUrbon
309 posts
Dec 21, 2007
4:40 PM
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My opinion is that if you purchase young birds from somebody then unless you can afford to loose them then dont fly them. Fly their young and build your program from the young and how the originals produce for you. The difference is if you have the parents then you can afford to fly them. If you dont have the parents then you cant afford to loose them. I dont stock a bird unless it meats some pretty stringent requirements and I cant evaluate a bird to make sure it does meet these requirements unless I fly it. My entire stock loft is related to one bird but I still put every bird off of him in the air. In my opinion and only mine I feel that I stand a much better chance of improving my birds if I am able to know what hey do in the air and also I feel it aids me in knowing what they do in the air when it comes to putting my pairs together. Joe Urbon
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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Skylineloft
620 posts
Dec 21, 2007
5:20 PM
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Joe,
That is so true.
IM just getting started out this year and because of this I put many birds away that where not flown out, or at all. When I reach a point where I have a group of proven producers that I can base my family of birds around, the days of just dropping a unproven bird in the stock pen will become close to non existent unless its something I know that I just can't live without in the breeding pen.
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
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gotspin7
890 posts
Dec 21, 2007
5:54 PM
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Real good fellas! Great post!
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Sal Ortiz
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Missouri-Flyer
1131 posts
Dec 22, 2007
1:49 AM
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Tony,
So your telling me that at lets say..hmmm, 3 weeks old, you can tell if a baby is going to be a good PERFORMER?. If thats the case, I need you to buy my lotto tickets for me.
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
Last Edited by on Dec 22, 2007 1:50 AM
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redchecker16
7 posts
Dec 22, 2007
2:12 AM
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Experienced-judges name a few people who has that eye 4 judgeing quality birds in the showpen & in the air. Thanks!
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CSRA
869 posts
Dec 22, 2007
7:26 AM
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Mizzo flyer buy your own lotto ticket lol in some cases if you understand your family you can tell
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Missouri-Flyer
1133 posts
Dec 22, 2007
9:31 AM
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CSRA,
I have to disagree. Again, how can you tell which out of 2 nestmates is the better one without flying them? You cant, and neither can anyone else!..Not possible..Your fishing for a fish that isnt there!..The sea is empty!
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
Last Edited by on Dec 22, 2007 9:31 AM
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CSRA
879 posts
Dec 22, 2007
10:11 AM
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Mizzo how long have you work with your family
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JMUrbon
310 posts
Dec 22, 2007
10:34 AM
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Guys I am sorry but I have seen on more than one accasion were a bird that barely rolls wins a show. You judge a performance bird in a cage all you can do is judge it on weather it has the qualities YOU think is needed to be a good roller.It is virtually impossible to chose the best bird out of a kit just by looking at them in a cage. Inless you get lucky. You wouldn't put a bunch of fantails in the air and ask a judge to pick the best one now would you. When you put a bird in a cage all you can see is the physical traits it does or doesn't have. alot of it comes down to personal preferance when it comes to judging performance birds. At least with Parlors you get to put them to the test. The same goes with judgeing a kit in the air. Its a personal opinion and no 2 judges will see things exactly the same.
What I am trying to say is if someone comes in your loft and picks a bird out and says " that bird is going to be you best breeder " then they are simply making an educated guess and there is nothing factual or scientific about them choosing that bird. Just a guess and nothing more. Joe Urbon
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
Last Edited by on Dec 22, 2007 10:36 AM
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