rollerpigeon1963
212 posts
Dec 22, 2007
4:54 AM
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Redchecker,
Now don't get me wrong here a flying judge will judge with a certain eye towards performance. And a show judge uses a different eye if you know what I mean. They both are correct to a point. But its a different feel all together. I remember when dual purpose birds were around for the guys that wanted performance and also win in the show pens. They couldn't do both and be successful to a point. So if you are having a performance show use a flying judge because there is a different feel in your hands than a show bird. There is certain things a judge likes to see when judging a flying bird over show bird.
I know this wasn't much help but what it all boils down to is what type of judge is judging what type of bird.
Brian Middaugh
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gotspin7
895 posts
Dec 22, 2007
6:06 AM
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I would say Keith London, Steve Smith, and Johnny Smith.
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Sal Ortiz
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
750 posts
Dec 22, 2007
6:10 AM
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Eldon chaney,,,,Brian Midaugh.......Don Sutton,,,,,
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RUDY PAYEN
PANCHO VILLA LOFT
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gotspin7
900 posts
Dec 22, 2007
6:13 AM
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I chime in with Rudy as well, Eldon Cheney and Don Sutton.
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Sal Ortiz
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
752 posts
Dec 22, 2007
6:16 AM
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Zuppppp salllllllllllll.............
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RUDY PAYEN
PANCHO VILLA LOFT
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CSRA
868 posts
Dec 22, 2007
7:22 AM
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That one i will not touch at the moment lol
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Drama Side
39 posts
Dec 22, 2007
7:36 AM
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As far as show judges I like Rayvon and Steve Smith. Fly judges there are not to many good ones. Lol!!!! Great post
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Missouri-Flyer
1132 posts
Dec 22, 2007
9:23 AM
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From what I have read and seen of these guys, Rudy is right on the money!
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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hectorvicki2003@yaho
138 posts
Dec 22, 2007
9:32 AM
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I think a judge should have many years of knoledge,im talking 30 + Like Frank Lavin,Eldon Chaney and many more of their time.
I think some people buy good bird from a good breeder and in a few years do good on a few big flys and everyone is putting them up on a pedestal.Some of these may not be that knoledgeble they just got lucky and became friends with some good breeders.Thats why i keep the respect to the old timers.
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Hector Coya
Last Edited by on Dec 22, 2007 9:33 AM
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Missouri-Flyer
1135 posts
Dec 22, 2007
9:34 AM
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Well said Hector!
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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Skylineloft
623 posts
Dec 22, 2007
9:38 AM
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Drama Side,
I think there are many real good fly judges here in So Cal.
To just start naming names without including others on a public forum is in a way I think disrespectful to the one that might be missed. What IM saying is not a direct attack on you, please do not take it as one, I just feel that this is a sticky question to begin with. So I think I will not list my favorites at this time.....lol
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
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CSRA
882 posts
Dec 22, 2007
10:50 AM
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I think that would be good topic
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redchecker16
11 posts
Dec 22, 2007
11:18 AM
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Thanks a million fellas an good luck in the future!
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Skylineloft
627 posts
Dec 22, 2007
11:31 AM
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redchecker16,
First of all I would like to welcome you to Tony's site.
I hope I did not offend you with my post on this subject.
This is just my opinion and IM sure if you had a vote on this subject, it would probably go 50/50.
Do you think you could tell us who you are and where your from ?
PS...This is Sky-16-07
A bird that did real well for me this year.
IM thinking your name comes from a red check you have banded # 16. Maybe you could post a photo of it.
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
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CSRA
888 posts
Dec 22, 2007
11:34 AM
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Ray thats a great looker there him i do not have to see him fly he has the qualities i am looking for now thats a pigeon that could move you in the right direction tell me how has he done for you
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Drama Side
40 posts
Dec 22, 2007
11:51 AM
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Ray I know there are some goods ones. What I said is there are not to many good ones. You know like I know a name can get you far out here. I agree with Hector because when we get those old timers from other places a name don't mean nothing. Thats how its supposed to be.
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CSRA
892 posts
Dec 22, 2007
11:53 AM
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hey Drama i see you called
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redchecker16
13 posts
Dec 22, 2007
12:29 PM
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Thanks skyline. Name is lamont garrett now red checker was a stray i strayed in 2001 on the 16th of oct my grandpops b/day.im from la.ca an i never new he was showable till smoke747 held him. Im new but want to learn more at 35yrs old lol! I will try 2 post him asap! Dont no who bred him. Thanks
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CSRA
894 posts
Dec 22, 2007
12:36 PM
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Hey hector coya who is the lucky guy thats been flying and buying good birds?
Last Edited by on Dec 22, 2007 1:09 PM
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ezeedad
185 posts
Dec 22, 2007
1:00 PM
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UH OH Steve....Looks like that one tickled a bit..!! ? LOL
Last Edited by on Dec 22, 2007 1:01 PM
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CSRA
895 posts
Dec 22, 2007
1:11 PM
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Well paul i was just curious about that comment he slap someone very hard with that one he must be getting whip in his club lol
Last Edited by on Dec 22, 2007 1:12 PM
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Skylineloft
629 posts
Dec 22, 2007
1:43 PM
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There would not be too many judges around if we only used judges that have been in the hobby for 30+ years. No offense Hector, but don't you think thats a little stiff for picking a judge ?
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
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CSRA
900 posts
Dec 22, 2007
2:20 PM
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Ray i thought it but i did'nt say it lol
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hectorvicki2003@yaho
139 posts
Dec 22, 2007
3:49 PM
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I agree with you Ray,it can be stiff to find a judge,but if it was easy anyone would judge.
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Hector Coya
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Skylineloft
632 posts
Dec 22, 2007
4:42 PM
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Hector,
This is a good conversation that I think can help us get more qualified judges in our region to judge birds for our club fly's as well as the W/C and the FF.
I like the fact that Steve has brought up a school for judging kit competition. Maybe we can get some guys to help out in this like Tim Decker, Randy Gibson, Keith London, Johnny Smith, Able Abara, Arnold Jackson, just to name a few that I think could give us tons of help in judging birds here correctly. Not everyone is good at judging, I don't care how many years they been in the hobby. Weather its from just not being able to react to the birds from everything going on so quickly or just bad eyesight. Sometimes its just not understanding the rules. I can speak for myself, just getting back into the birds this year I feel a little rusty when it comes to judging but I think I could do the job if the opportunity came up. No, I have not flown rollers for 30+ years but I think I know what to look for and go over the rules for the W/C and the FF all the time so that I have a better understanding of what is required from a judge. I did start flying rollers in the early 70s but was just a backyard breeder as a kid. Does this make me someone that has been in the hobby for over 30+ years.........lol. I don't think so. I still consider myself a rookie and hope to learn and participate as much as I can in the future.
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
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hectorvicki2003@yaho
140 posts
Dec 22, 2007
5:11 PM
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Dont get upset Ray
I didnt mean anything negative,It was just an example,who whould you rather have judging your birds,a guy thats been doing great for 4 years and started 5 years ago, or a guy that is a legeond .someone thats been in rollers longer that the people's birds hes judging?
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Hector Coya
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Skylineloft
634 posts
Dec 22, 2007
6:29 PM
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Not at all Hector,
I do think that there are some guys that have been in the hobby for just 5 years that are sharp as a tack. They have did everything they could to learn the hobby and how it is judged and spend many hours under kits. This helps them understand what you need to do to understand how to judge a kit and what to look for. At the same time there are old timers that are slower at what they see now because there reflexes are getting a little slower and might not catch everything a young energetic flyer might catch if trained properly. In NASCAR they begin to move the older guys out of competition not because of what they know but because they cannot react to the fast movements like they used to. Lets not forget that your eyesight starts to go in your 40s as well. Thats just a whole new thread in its self.
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
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CSRA
903 posts
Dec 22, 2007
7:02 PM
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Thanks hector for your response to my question good job buddy
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big al
259 posts
Dec 22, 2007
7:04 PM
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Hector it depends on the person with less experience. I personally know some very sharp guys who have been in rollers less than 7 years and I would let them judge any day! I am familiar with their commitment and skill level. In theory your statement makes more sense than not, but in reality there is talent out there in the form of guys who are not legends with 25 - 30 under their belt, but know what they're looking at under a team.
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See you in the roll!
Allen Strother (Big Al)
"High Plains Spinner Loft"
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CSRA
909 posts
Dec 22, 2007
7:12 PM
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Big Al you are sharp with your comments good work
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smoke747
278 posts
Dec 22, 2007
7:59 PM
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REDCHK16,
MOST OF THE GUYS HAVE GOOD POINTS, BUT AT WHAT TIME DO WE GIVE THE YOUNGER A CHANCE? length of time does not make a good judge.how many of these old timers are familiar or exprienced with the world cup scoring system (in LA COUNTY)
There are several old timers that can't keep up with some of the new guys. i myself am 43 yrs old and have been raising birds sinde i was eleven. that does not make me a qualified judge.NO!!!
EVERYBODY HAS GOT TO GET THEIR BIRDS FROM SOMEONE.
IF YOU WATCH SOME FLYERS KITS AND YOU SEE THEM CONTIUALLY FLYING GOOD KITS THAT IT SELF DESERVE SOME MERIT ON THIER JUDGING SKILLS, BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO BE THE JUDGE IN SELECTING THE BIRDS THEY PUT IN THEIR BREEDING LOFT AND AT THE SAME TIME BE THE JUDGE ON WHAT BIRDS TO SELECT FOR THEIR KITS AND HOW TO PREP THEM. BOTTOM LINE IS, THERE ARE MORE JUDGES THAN WE THINK THAT ARE QUALIFIED.
THE HARD PART IS FINDING A QUALIFIED JUDGE WHOM IS WILLING TO TAKE ON THE TASK OF JUDGING.
SMOKE747
Last Edited by on Dec 22, 2007 8:16 PM
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tapp
509 posts
Dec 22, 2007
8:11 PM
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Hector, so your saying any ole fool can buy or be given good quality birds and no matter what, Fly good kits of birds and win major flys? I thought good birds in the wrong hands could be taken down the wrong road. Like people get Neible's and can't do crap with them, and then some can. Just curious! Kim Tappenden,ps nice red check Ray!
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Tapp
Last Edited by on Dec 22, 2007 8:13 PM
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Skylineloft
638 posts
Dec 22, 2007
8:14 PM
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I agree Smoke!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
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hectorvicki2003@yaho
143 posts
Dec 22, 2007
8:18 PM
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Tapp, did i say any old fool?
I think you know what i ment.I wasnt trying to stir anything up.Obviously if a fool get good birds he will never do anything with them.
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Hector Coya
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hectorvicki2003@yaho
144 posts
Dec 22, 2007
8:22 PM
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I guesss i agree with you Kieth.
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Hector Coya
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Skylineloft
640 posts
Dec 22, 2007
8:35 PM
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Hector,
You have been around for a long time in this hobby and you not only deserve the respect for all the years in the hobby, but I believe that you are respected.
Just to say, I hear every word you say and take every word into consideration. Not that Im the expert here because we all know that this is not the case, but I do like to hear what you have to say.
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
Last Edited by on Dec 22, 2007 8:36 PM
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smoke747
281 posts
Dec 22, 2007
8:40 PM
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HECTOR,
I THINK YOU WOULD MAKE JUDGE BASED ON YOUR CHARACTER AND YOUR ABILITY TO FLY GOOD KITS WHICH IS WHERE WE GET OUR EXPERIENCE.
SMOKE747
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redchecker16
15 posts
Dec 22, 2007
9:45 PM
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What up smoke747. I just wanted 2 no who has that eye 4 judgeing quality spinners some more experienced guys see things that i dont see & others.now if ur new how would u no what 2 look 4 if u dont ask. Me & ed use 2 wonder an wonder what these guys see that makes that pigeon so great. An i no theres lots of great judges out there thats why i said name a few not who was the best. some new 2 the hobby may not no what 2 look 4 in judgeing there kits thanks!
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JMUrbon
316 posts
Dec 22, 2007
10:51 PM
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If I may step in here I would like to say first and this is with no disrespect to those who have done thier time and have the 20 + years that some believe is needed to know something about these birds. I think that some can learn in 5 years what took some to learn in 20. Just depends upon the person and their common sense and abilty to learn and comprehend what it is they are being told.I know that you all have heard the term " He is like a sponge ". Well that to me is a guy that learns alot from what he has been told. Others must learn it for themselves and my friends that is the long way. Most guys that I know will give credit were credit is due. I myself will always try to be respectful but I also am not afraid to ask the contriversial question when need be. I have been breeding rollers for better that 26 years and I have always paid the utmost attention to my birds and to those who I feel have put the most into their management and their birds. I dont ask alot of questions but that is not because I feel I have nothing to learn but rather I have seen that alot of the questions are usually answered at one point or another on this site if you just pay attention. This site has some of the best info a new breeder could ever come accross and its FREE. If I could give any of you out there advice it would be that unless you are 100% satisfied with the line you are working with then dont continue to waste $ trying to improve something that isnt there. Go out and purchase some good birds from a reputable breeder. I dont fly Tony's birds but I have seen some good ones from him in the air, Look him up. If you want something better than what you have believe me they are out there you just need to be willing to go get them. another litle piece of advice I will give is when you do find what you are looking for remember that it is the percentage of good ones you breed that will win and NOT the number of birds you can breed. You will never be able to breed enough to satisfy you and the hawks so just throwing pairs together for sheer numbers is silly and like pissing in the wind. Find the pairs that work the best for you and focus on them. Sorry for rambling I guess I had one to many to drink tonight. LOL Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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Skylineloft
642 posts
Dec 22, 2007
10:57 PM
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Once again Joe,
Good to hear your sound advice.
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
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JMUrbon
317 posts
Dec 22, 2007
11:01 PM
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Hey Thanks Ray, Felt like I was rambling. Hopefully some of it was usefull. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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gotspin7
919 posts
Dec 23, 2007
5:26 AM
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Ray, Big Al, Smoke and Joe great posts! A lot of helpful info!
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Sal Ortiz
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
325 posts
Dec 23, 2007
6:10 AM
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ARNOLD JACKSON has talked about this and has the right idea about judging on points with quality with kits overall .I know that there is more guys out there, but Arnold has had his eye on quality in mind first.My pick first pick for right know would be ARNOLD JACKSON.
R-LUNA
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Velo99
1468 posts
Dec 23, 2007
7:37 AM
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Ya know there has been discussion before about a certification program for judges. Tony has a program in the works. My thought was more of an internet friendly forum/chat format. It can reach more potential judges with a minimum amount of effort.Study material can emailed and discussed on the forums,chat for a round robin discussion to make sure everyone is on the same page. Testing can be done one on one in the chat. Yes cheating could be an issue but why would a judge cheat on his examination? Honor system would be enacted.
Since the actual performance judging will never be standardized, I was thinking more of a rules and diplomacy format. The rules should be completely understood and applied evenly. The meat of the program should be just that,an intense study of the rules and their application in different situations. I feel that at least that portion of fly judging can be standardized.
Performance judging can be learned but like anything else in this sport,it takes a lot of sky time.
jmho
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V99
Keep the best. Eat the rest.
Last Edited by on Dec 23, 2007 7:38 AM
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CSRA
918 posts
Dec 23, 2007
7:38 AM
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I know Arnold was working on a system when he gets it perfected we still have to get everyone to understand it so we can be on the same page with it
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Missouri-Flyer
1140 posts
Dec 23, 2007
11:16 AM
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During the Texas Convention, it would be great to have those that are interested in judging, judge a few kits where everyone was watching the same kit, and keep track of the points they scored, and then after a few kits have been flown, get together and compare how things were scored, to see who is on the same page.
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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CSRA
932 posts
Dec 23, 2007
11:50 AM
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That sound good but lets get them on the same track first then have then judge because evryones judging is different from the start
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luis
419 posts
Dec 23, 2007
9:33 PM
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On this subject i can say it all adds up to how interested you are in learning.If you learn from the best and put it to practice in due time you become just as good ,and some become even better!Some folks are born with ability and others are not but the desire to be "good at it" plays a huge role in what you accomplish!
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CSRA
947 posts
Dec 23, 2007
10:01 PM
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Luis i like your approach good deal
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ideaspin
17 posts
Dec 23, 2007
10:12 PM
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Luis
Well said.
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