CSRA
883 posts
Dec 22, 2007
10:58 AM
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Would it be a good idea or not on a school for kit competition judging be beneficial to the sport?
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Skylineloft
628 posts
Dec 22, 2007
11:32 AM
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Great idea!!!!!!!!!!!
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
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CSRA
889 posts
Dec 22, 2007
11:39 AM
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most judges seem to interpret the rule different for instance a kit of 20 birds are flying you have 10 breaks in 20 min. they are all 5's and the quality and depth is 2.0 and 2.0 what would you actually give them on quality and depth please be honest so we can kinda get on one page with this judging
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glenn
70 posts
Dec 22, 2007
12:08 PM
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Hello:
The only way your are going to get several people on the same page about judging is:
1) They have the same eye and are looking for the same thing.
2)There experenice with the birds is about the same.
3)They all would have seen the real deal in there own birds, in there own backyard's.
Judging is so subjective that it would be very hard to teach someone unless they have seen it. Just my thoughts....Glenn
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ezeedad
184 posts
Dec 22, 2007
12:53 PM
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How about making an instructional judging video, which shows different kinds of breaks and qualities of speed and depth? This along with a written standard that all the judges are supposed to follow.
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CSRA
896 posts
Dec 22, 2007
1:13 PM
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Thats a good start lets see what happens
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Skylineloft
630 posts
Dec 22, 2007
1:52 PM
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Steve,
First of all the only birds that should be considered for the Q & D are the birds that rolled and were counted, so if those birds where perfect like you said, they should get the 2.0 even though you only got 5 bird breaks.
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
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CSRA
898 posts
Dec 22, 2007
2:18 PM
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Ok good job BINGO i agree
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big al
255 posts
Dec 22, 2007
6:17 PM
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Hi csra,
An interesting topic you bring to the table.
A few thoughts... Although judging in this hobby is very subjective as mentioned in an earlier post, there has been a growth spurt of knowledge in the areas of genetics and training. There are more guys flying good birds than there were 5 years ago. Training knowledge that seemed to be reserved for a handful of guys some years ago is readily available now. However, because there is still sometimes a wide margin between what some fanciers consider to be an excellent performance, getting guys to agree on a school training standard could be difficult. I think that many of the competitors today have realized that they have to up their game to get good numbers. That coupled with there being many more competing than a few years ago, the chance of your idea being successful looks better in the near future as more guys are beginning to understand more about true performance and quality. Sites like this along with shows and other forms of communication create an opportunity for growth and knowledge in the hobby. So as more guys begin to realize the level of excellence they should be striving for in competition, the closer you get to an idea like that working without too much adversity although there will always be some.
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See you in the roll!
Allen Strother (Big Al)
"High Plains Spinner Loft"
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CSRA
902 posts
Dec 22, 2007
6:58 PM
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Big Al very well said very good job good lookin out
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hectorvicki2003@yaho
142 posts
Dec 22, 2007
7:51 PM
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Where do I sign up.Sounds good.
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Hector Coya
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smoke747
279 posts
Dec 22, 2007
8:05 PM
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VERY GOOD THREAD BIGAL..
SOME CAN'T SEE BUT ARE ASHAMED TO ADMIT IT.
SMOKE747
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Ballrollers
1014 posts
Dec 22, 2007
9:20 PM
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Big Al,
Good post! Good to hear from you, buddy! Are you getting all the bugs worked out of life?
Cliff
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Donny James
204 posts
Dec 22, 2007
9:26 PM
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yeah i think so i think ever judge has there own idea what the kit should look like or should roll like............donny james
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big al
260 posts
Dec 22, 2007
9:31 PM
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Hi Cliff,
Thanks man! God's doing great things with me! Everything else is coming along much better than expected but still early. Plans still the same for possible N.C. move. I'll call you.
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See you in the roll!
Allen Strother (Big Al)
"High Plains Spinner Loft"
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CSRA
917 posts
Dec 23, 2007
4:08 AM
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The judging school would put everybody on the same page on how to judge a kit so we will not put or own ideals on how it should be judged
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gotspin7
907 posts
Dec 23, 2007
4:49 AM
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Big Al, good post!
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Sal Ortiz
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CSRA
920 posts
Dec 23, 2007
7:43 AM
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Ron Luna what do you think about this topic?
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
770 posts
Dec 23, 2007
8:09 AM
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Who will explain the judging school ???
Another judge ???
Or a panel of judges getting together ?
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RUDY PAYEN
PANCHO VILLA LOFT
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CSRA
923 posts
Dec 23, 2007
8:35 AM
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i would think several guys can get together to get the info out
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John
126 posts
Dec 23, 2007
9:57 AM
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Guys,
Lets just keep it real. The standrads or rules are already in place but how each judge views of them are different.How many judges actually follow the standards or rules that are in place now? Don't get me wrong, there are some good judges out there but there are some who put there own view of the rule into play. You see this all the time when birds that have rolled out of the kit and are returning to the kit and lets say 6 or 7 seven other birds break as the birds are returning. I have seen judges not count the birds the just broke. That is just one example and I'm sure many of you could add a few more.I believe the rule is if the birds roll out then They're not considered out as long as they are returning to the kit.There are some that do count this but there some who don't.Don't get me wrong a shcool is great idea and I think it would help the sport but the judge still would have to follow the standards set forth by the school and not place his views on the rules.I believe as long as the judge is consisent through out the fly and there are no hidden agendas then every one gets a fair shake.I've heard of guys judging the flies and then picking birds out the winning kit or getting breeders from the winner of the fly.This may be above board and not a hidden agenda but it just doesn't look right to the other flyers. I think one of the biggest problems are egos and I don't mean the ones that fly LOL. Guys must remember we are fying pigeons not egos! No matter who the judge is or how long they been in the hobby,How many times have your heard all the flyers of the kits say the judge did a great job? (not some, not a few,Not the winner but all the flyers). It doesn't happen that often. There's always some one who feels that they should have received more. Either their quality, Depth or the score in general. This just human nature. There's always going to be a few that think they did better then the score shows.On the other hand then you are going to have some that say the others didn't earn the scores that they received (That wasn't 500,600 Or 700).Again just human nature.This reminds me of what my great grandmother use to always say" Every body thinks their baby's cute even the monkies at the zoo". I wish we could all be on the same page but as others have stated in other post we are all on a different learning curve.
John
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Drama Side
41 posts
Dec 23, 2007
10:18 AM
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Great post John and your right. No matter what you are always going to get somebody that don't agree.
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Missouri-Flyer
1138 posts
Dec 23, 2007
10:51 AM
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Good idea, but it would never work. There are not enough guys that are interested in judging, that could or would go to a school. The ones that are fair, think that they dont need a school to tell them how to judge, as they have been judging birds for years, and quiet frankly, I agree.. I dont need a school to tell me how to tie my shoes..Its common sense.
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
783 posts
Dec 23, 2007
10:58 AM
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Good post flyer..........
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RUDY PAYEN
PANCHO VILLA LOFT
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CSRA
933 posts
Dec 23, 2007
11:51 AM
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John M. call me
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CSRA
934 posts
Dec 23, 2007
11:54 AM
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john thats my point exactly
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CSRA
945 posts
Dec 23, 2007
8:13 PM
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Mizzo Flyer wow lol tie your shoes lol thanks for your comment
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gotspin7
943 posts
Dec 24, 2007
5:13 AM
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John good post!
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Sal Ortiz
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Skylineloft
665 posts
Dec 24, 2007
4:22 PM
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John,
Good post.
There is allot of wisdom in what you have to say.
One thing is for sure, you will never please everyone,
and there will always be those that will never be happy no matter how you package a competition.
What Steve is proposing I think is a good idea overall.
Lets just say that we got a group of guys together, put up a kit of birds. Everyone there scores the team based on the rules given and then just talked over why they scored what they did. We would not put pressure on who is right or who is wrong, but just go over the information to see where we are all thinking and seeing so that we can get a better understanding of what a true roller should look like and be able to discuss wing switching, birds not coming out of the roll correctly, etc. I feel sorry for the guy that puts up the kit to be picked apart and either criticized or praised. But it is good to be able to talk these things over. I do not think that there are many out there that will not learn something from doing something like this.
Please, I would like to hear more input on this!!!!!!!!!!
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
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smoke747
294 posts
Dec 26, 2007
2:11 AM
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COUNT ME IN ON THIS.
SMOKE747
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gotspin7
948 posts
Dec 26, 2007
5:21 AM
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Ray, great post, I think there has to be a strong starting point! Years back they had three judges and they would combine their scores after the fly for the final score.
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Sal Ortiz
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CSRA
976 posts
Dec 26, 2007
6:21 AM
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All we are trying to do is get everybody on the same page as for as the correct way to judge and not one's opinion on how that think they should be judge the rule only again not personal judging
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bigwilly
172 posts
Dec 26, 2007
7:41 AM
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I LIke what Paul said about the instructional video. As people are watching the video they are being trained at the same time. This is a great way to get evryone on the same page.
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Skylineloft
689 posts
Dec 27, 2007
2:54 PM
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The problem with a video is that it is so hard to get good video footage on tape. If you don't believe this, go outside and shoot a couple hours of video and see what you come up with. I love seeing good footage, but its rare.
I think a great place to start is just a group of guys getting together, going over the W/C and FF rules, discussing the rules and what we think they mean by interpretation. Then get together another time to discuss this again and then fly some kits. Everyone will judge and give there opinion on what they saw and why they called it the way they did from each kit. This is not to make a person start thinking like anyone else, but to help each one of us see why people call the birds the way they do.
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
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Donny James
215 posts
Dec 27, 2007
3:19 PM
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i sure would but your going get some joker will give an high score ....................donny james
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ezeedad
209 posts
Dec 27, 2007
4:11 PM
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How about if the NBRC or some other club makes a video archive of performances..
It might be possible to get the best quality shots accumulated in one place,
then they could be edited into different types of performance... velocity,
style, depth and turns...
A group of experienced judges could ascess the performances on the video,
then when they are in agreement, send it around to all the other judges as a standard
of how they are to call.
The video could also be used to show to new judges. They could also "practice judge",
either using a training video or by being trained by a Certified Judge.
P.S. I sure wish the spelling of School in the topic heading could be corrected...
I know it's just a typo....
Last Edited by on Dec 27, 2007 4:14 PM
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turkey buzzard
16 posts
Dec 28, 2007
6:44 AM
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As having judged and been judged there are so many problems it is unreal. We have regions that allow there own members to do the judging instead of getting judge that has no influence. Reason! Money, how much does it cost to fly in an out of state judge!!!!!! Then you have fliers that fly there birds 10 minutes before total darkness in hopes of getting a judge that will judge in those low light conditions. We have fliers testing the judges, asking flying rules during a fly to see if they are competant or not. With all this said this is a volunteer job "judging" being away from family and your own stock for days on end. Our region requires a 8 to 10 day time frame for judging. And again judging is subjective and it is not a defined art and is continually evolving. It just a shame that we don't instant replay then it would be easier to judge the birds etc. Fliers then could throw out the flag for discrepancies and all could review the fly for technical difficulties.
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rollernutz
26 posts
Dec 28, 2007
9:09 AM
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judging is similiar 2 officiating, you can all be trained the same(school,videos etc.) but what it boils down 2 that individuals interpetation. look at sports and how many calls are overturned, one ref sees one thing another sees something different, i dont think you will ever have consistant judging do to the fact its all about what an individual judge likes. as long as the judge stays consistant with each kit during the flys, it shouldnt matter if he judges them the same way you or someone else would!i think alot of the problems stem from egos being 2 big and people believing their kits did better than it actually did! jmao
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ezeedad
211 posts
Dec 28, 2007
10:31 AM
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Rollernuts and Turkey buzzard...
What both of you guys are saying is evidence of the need to at least provide some sort of VISUAL STANDARD that can be used by judges of large wide-spread competitions that may never have a chance to see each others' birds, but who are responsible for rendering a fair and honest decision.
It shouldn't be a subjective thing, and just because there is imperfection in human judgement, this doesn't mean that we should just continue to go along with our past faults and errors. The NFL continues to tweak their system, and probably will always continue to do so.
Producing the video guide would be the hardest part. But that could be done in stages, and like everything else could be modified and improved as time goes by. But if the system of judging rollers does not improve, it will continue to cause a lot of flyers to be dissatisfied.
The closer we can bring the judging of our birds to a science, the beter off we will be. Maybe someday we will be able to compare the quality of our judging systems to that of the racing homers.
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turkey buzzard
17 posts
Dec 28, 2007
10:52 AM
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The bottom line again is it's a volunteer job. Who would want to use there valuable time and get no reward, no accolades, no monetary reward. To always have someone ridicule your judging style because they did not win or score according to how you saw the birds or were schooled to judge the birds.
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turkey buzzard
18 posts
Dec 28, 2007
10:55 AM
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I also personally think that the NBRC and WC rules for judging kits should be the same. It could and would go along way to simplfy the judging system. Why have two sets of rules to basically judge the same set of birds year in and year out!!!!!!! Just a thought!!!!!
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CSRA
1009 posts
Dec 28, 2007
10:57 AM
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I think NBRC and W/C should certify judges i think it will work
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W@yne
854 posts
Dec 28, 2007
11:10 AM
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The school seems a good idea putting all judges on a level pegging however if the trainee judges do not have a good eye in the first place to see a good bird then they will never have. It would be like putting a square peg into a round hole. Going to a school getting the training then putting judging into practise are two diffrent things but its a start and that can only mean a good thing for the sport.
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Regards
W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection
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Last Edited by on Dec 28, 2007 11:14 AM
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Skylineloft
693 posts
Dec 28, 2007
11:52 AM
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There is another way to do this.
Here in California there are many roller clubs that need judges on a continual bases. There are probably close to 100 fly's scheduled each year here. Many of us know judges that we consider good judges. If we could get some of these judges just to take one or two guys that are willing to learn more from these judges at a time on a fly with them and explain how and why they call birds the way they do, I think we would start getting more and more judges that can judge to the standard of the rules. I approached Tim Decker at the beginning of the year in hopes to get to hang out with him while he judged so I could learn more from an experienced judge like that. Unfortunately, he had other things to deal with this year so I did not get that opportunity. By doing this, I think we can improve upon the judging pool that we currently have.
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Ray
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
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rollernutz
27 posts
Dec 28, 2007
2:55 PM
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i agree with steve, their should be certified judges for major flys i.e world cup and fallfly. a standard should be set and met and if the entrance fee needs to be increased to pay for these judges so be it, their aren't to many competitions where judges aren't compensated anyway.
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Skylineloft
698 posts
Dec 28, 2007
3:42 PM
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Rollernuts,
I think certified judges is exactly where this is going and its not a new idea by any means. If IM correct, the NBRC started certifying judges in the 90s. I do think if we can get some qualified judges to help train new judges while we fly local club fly's here in SO Calif, this will benefit all of us here that compete as well as judge fly's because this will only give us a larger group of judges to pick from. I know Arnold Jackson donates his time here in this area every year and I bet if we asked him he would be more then willing to mentor new judges. (Hope I did not put you on the spot Arnold...lol)
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
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W@yne
864 posts
Dec 29, 2007
2:08 AM
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There is another way to do this.
Here in California there are many roller clubs that need judges on a continual bases. There are probably close to 100 fly's scheduled each year here. Many of us know judges that we consider good judges. If we could get some of these judges just to take one or two guys that are willing to learn more from these judges at a time on a fly with them and explain how and why they call birds the way they do, I think we would start getting more and more judges that can judge to the standard of the rules. I approached Tim Decker at the beginning of the year in hopes to get to hang out with him while he judged so I could learn more from an experienced judge like that. Unfortunately, he had other things to deal with this year so I did not get that opportunity. By doing this, I think we can improve upon the judging pool that we currently have.
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Ray
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This sounds a great idea teaching rookie judges by the best judges is the way forward and yes at competitions because a classroom can never take the place of a live event competition.
Jeez Ray i think you have hit the nail my friend Lol.
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Regards
W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection
=====================================
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gotspin7
1006 posts
Dec 29, 2007
5:42 AM
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Ray, I will chime in with you on this one! I agree! Great Idea!
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Sal Ortiz
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CSRA
1017 posts
Dec 29, 2007
9:28 AM
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Ray you are sharp good job
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Skylineloft
722 posts
Dec 29, 2007
4:33 PM
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Steve,
Now that I think we are starting to get on the same page with everyone here. I think the next step should be to get ahold of all the fly coordinators in our area and as the local fly's are scheduled and judges are picked to judge, we can have the fly coordinators ask the judges if they are willing to help out in this area while they judge the fly. Think of how many new judges can be mentored in just one year here.
1) We need a list of guys that want to be taught and can be approved by the club that they will be going with the judge on. It might come down to just guys in there own club being taught while the judging is going on. Many clubs will not let people come to there fly's if they are not approved by someone within the club.
2) We need to come up with a list of consistent judges that are willing to take the time to do this while they are judging.
If there is a way to coordinate just these two things i think this could be a great way to start certifying judges.
Does anyone know how the NBRC certified judges in the past ? And are there any certified judges here on this list that was certified by the NBRC ?
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
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