ezeedad
264 posts
Jan 13, 2008
3:39 PM
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This question is mainly directed to Wayne, over there in the B.K...
Is there a difference, there in England, between the type of rollers bred for kit competition, and those bred to the standard which Pensom promoted as "rolling a considerable distance with inconceivable rapidity, like a spinning ball"..?
Pensom was expelled from the club which bears his name, many years ago, because he brought "competition rollers" from England to the U.S. One of the bylaws of that club was that everyones' birds had to have been from the original Pensom imports. As I understand, Pensom was attempting to prove that flying rollers in kit competition, for turns, had led to producing a different type of roller.
If this is true, how has the hobby, there in the place of its' origin, evolved in the interveving years, since Pensom wrote his opinion and brought those birds over.
Paul
Last Edited by on Jan 13, 2008 3:40 PM
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Bill C
55 posts
Jan 13, 2008
4:18 PM
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There is a guy local near me who is from England. He has some of the kind of birds Pensom brought over to show them,that just because you get a big break and birds tumbling, they are what the rollers will end up in time with this type of rolling and scoring.
This man called his birds competition Badges, they are not Birmingham rollers. I believe this is the same kind of birds Pensom brought over.
They all have to break together in a flock or kit, they would tumble and a few might roll, they were short rolling birds like 5 feet. They would all roll the same time too.
This kind of team would beat all the best birmingham rollers because they had huge breaks and full turns, which is seldon in the birmingham rollers.
My friend here has rollers and the compititon badges and he would often fly the comp badges after his fly for us to see. Steve, Wayne or someone in the UK can help out but most of this is in the Pensom books and other books History. BillC
Last Edited by on Jan 13, 2008 4:24 PM
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Bill C
56 posts
Jan 13, 2008
4:52 PM
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where is Ken, he could tell you a good story that he just told me yeasterday. He said he wants to have a single bird fly. Thinking it will also get some guys to fly who do not fly in the competition flies.
As he told me, " Guys would meet in a bar and have a drink and chat rollers, when one guy would brag on what a champion roller he flew. The next guy would say I saw your roller and she is a fast baby, but I actually got one faster. THe next guy would laugh and say I have you both beet since I've got three fast ones to chose from, so they would set a day to have a match. This would promote the fastest velocity with depth roller competitons among themselves. I think this is what Pensom did not want to lose in the true birminham rollers. Some of the fastest birds will blur out the wings. You only will get this in H or() birds rolling. Look at Dave Hendersons web page and you will see a picture of this type in the air. I am not saying all his birds are a blur. I am saying most do not have this and you have to select for quality and breed for quality or you will not have it or keep it.
I have more birds than the average comp guy because I know there are going to be some really good birds come out in time. I am not talking quantity over quality. But I have several different families and I begin to let go of any of them that are not showing the velocity that I want. I will also keep birds flying for three years before culling just because they didn't roll. If I lock birds up for three or four months that does not make a two year old flyer in two years. I am definately not interested in developing 4 to 6 month wonders. I want 1 to 2 year wonders. Some understand this and it is very contraversal I know. BIll C
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3757
485 posts
Jan 13, 2008
5:58 PM
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Bill C - Not all of Bill Pensom rollers were late developers as some would think. What Bill was talking about regarding development was the peak development of a bird’s performance and not necessarily starting to perform in one or two years. His records clearly indicates that he had birds that started performing at an early age but did not mature in the performance until a year or better.
Also, the competition badges both the red and the black badges could not be beat for turns. Bill's philosophy was to breed birds for the highest caliber of performance not turns as you indicated. The individual rules that Paul and I have discussed are the closest rules that I know of that are geared to what Bill envisioned for individual competitions.
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CSRA
1131 posts
Jan 13, 2008
6:25 PM
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I wish there were individual comp for the true spinners guys it would give the sport a big boost bottom line is don't run the 2 together they are seperate goals involved here
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Skylineloft
930 posts
Jan 13, 2008
6:31 PM
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I think its coming Steve.
There are many of us that are excited about this topic.
Single bird competition!!!!!!!!
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
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CSRA
1135 posts
Jan 13, 2008
6:32 PM
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I hope so i will be there
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gotspin7
1215 posts
Jan 14, 2008
4:43 AM
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I am game!
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Sal Ortiz
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Windjammer Loft
148 posts
Jan 14, 2008
5:00 AM
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Now this,just might get my blood boiling with INTEREST. A single bird competition. I think I could get into this competition aspect. Now your TALKING guys...LOL. I'd really like to hear more on this TOPIC!
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Fly High and Roll On
Paul
Last Edited by on Jan 14, 2008 5:01 AM
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Shadow
10 posts
Jan 14, 2008
5:43 AM
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re bottom half of this thread,when competition was at its strongest here,our most looked forward to fly was our old bird and young bird individual flys,consisting of five birds being flown but only one bird being scored,four others were flying to encourage individual roller,also to provide a type of kit,re its kitting abilities,these were our best flies as only one bird was being watched,it had to do everything correctly to win with points being scored by it only as follows rolls.quality,kitting,ensuing if judged correctly only the best spinner would win it,as with only five birds flying and being judged alone,its got no place hide. Go for it and enjoy.
Last Edited by on Jan 14, 2008 5:45 AM
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ezeedad
267 posts
Jan 14, 2008
6:24 AM
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Yes,
We also flew with any number of differently colored birds so that the one we were judging could be easily distinguished from the others.
Gomez
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3757
486 posts
Jan 14, 2008
6:27 AM
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The most powerful thing about this subject is that fanciers now are looking at making the birds better. Myself and others butted heads with the so called big honcho's on this subject for the past twenty years and now fanciers are open to making the birds better which is what this sport is all about.
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CSRA
1137 posts
Jan 14, 2008
6:41 AM
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NBRC 11 bird fly should be popping then fellas i will see you there lol
Last Edited by on Jan 14, 2008 6:43 AM
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3757
487 posts
Jan 14, 2008
7:36 AM
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Steve - First, I would like to commend you on your fly accomplishments for the NBRC national fly's. That is awesome. The 11 bird fly is a great fly but we have gotten to the point where if it is not part of a large organization it is looked down upon and this is not good for the fancy. The rules, that Paul and I have mentioned previously, are totally different from the 11 bird fly and should not be compared as the same.
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CSRA
1148 posts
Jan 14, 2008
7:53 AM
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Laron i got you on that good job i was looking at just comp. put them up no matter what they will shine if they are good
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W@yne
936 posts
Jan 14, 2008
8:28 AM
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Paul
The only thing that i can see that has changed in the hobby since Pensom was over here is that frequency amongst our families of rollers.
Back in them days a flyer would of been happy with one break a minute.
Today we still strive for high velocity pigeons rolling with good speed and at a good depth.
Two breaks a minute the guys who enter in competitions are trying to achieve and master in the Birmingham Roller pigeon in a 20 minute period in today's birds.
When i say two breaks a minute i mean two quality breaks that to me is better to watch than any four breaks a minute garbage.
Three breaks and four breaks a minute for a full twenty minutes don't wash with me in my opinion that is pure activity amongst a kit of pigeons that i don't like to see but i see some judges still score this activity.
The standard of quality in the roll in my opinion has not changed one bit we are still breeding towards perfect spinning birds just like Bill Pensom did back in them days.
One thing i have noticed is the pigeons over in the US still have the Pensom look about them that our birds over in the UK seem to have lost or been bred away from over the years.
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Regards
W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection
=====================================
Last Edited by on Jan 14, 2008 2:14 PM
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hectorvicki2003@yaho
181 posts
Jan 14, 2008
8:28 AM
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Bob Scott had a Champion, SCRC-72-1570, it was the winner of the 1972 NBRC individual champion, My question is what ever hapened to that competition,dose anyone have any records,like who won 1971 or who won 1973?
was it in California or all states?
I remember seeing the trophy but i never asked him about the fly(wish i whoulof)
I have a few pedegrees that states that bird as the Champion that year.
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Hector Coya - SGVS
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George R.
40 posts
Jan 14, 2008
6:33 PM
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Sorry guys but I cant seem to figure this one out . I have seen some kits that 80 % of the birds were spinning 30 Ft plus and the other 20% hitting 20 or more feet.
I dont see how someone would rather breed for 1 or 2 great individuals when I think the object of the game is to breed a whole kit of outstanding spinners.
I have seen some good indivduals and they looked even better when they were in a kit of alot of 20 to 30 ft plus birds.
sure everyone has the right to breed whatever they like but I like to see birds that are frequent fast and at least 30ft , I notice that alot of birds that spin more then 30ft usually have some major fualts like not frequent, dishrag, control issues, wing switching, kitting.
If someone makes a individual contest I will be the first guy to enter and I will put my 30 foot bird against anyones 50ft bird.
Last Edited by on Jan 14, 2008 6:42 PM
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3757
489 posts
Jan 14, 2008
6:48 PM
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George - Most people do not even understand what we are saying with regards to high velocity spinners and individual competitions. The ultimate goal to me is to breed as many champions as possible and to breed birds that can spin to the highest calibre with velocity and style. This does not make my goal any better than someone elses goal. I do not believe that everyone has the same goals nor should they have the same ones. That would make it boring to me. High velocity and style, frequency and then depth is it for me and to have as many in the kit that can perform this way as possible.
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George R.
41 posts
Jan 14, 2008
7:09 PM
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I always thought that the true Birmingham Roller was the TOTAL PACKAGE.
I still dont think any of the Birds that I try to breed for would be at a disadvantage when it comes to rules for either individuals or 20 bird kits or 11 bird kits.
Sort of like a Racehorse that can win at any distance muddy track or fast track and grass races too LOL .
I am not sold on the Competition rollers and Birmingham Rollers when I think they are the same Birds .
Last Edited by on Jan 14, 2008 7:17 PM
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ezeedad
269 posts
Jan 14, 2008
7:24 PM
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George,
Reading your last two posts leads me to believe that either all your birds are rolling like champions,
or that you could be a little more careful in distinguishing between them to determine which
one is best. Hope I am not being rude, but superior spinners are rare and always have been.
Paul G
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George R.
42 posts
Jan 14, 2008
7:34 PM
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Pual
Im just courios have you ever been to Randy Gibsons, Abel Ibarras, Brian Mccormicks, Johnny Smiths, Jerry Higgins, Jose Luis lorenzo, Kieth Londons, Ron Duncans, Houses and seen there birds fly ?
No Pual not all my birds are Champions or great .
If your wondering about my stock your always welcome to come see for yourself or just ask someone that has seen them fly. I have flown in all the fly's that I could regardless if my Birds were ready or not.
Last Edited by on Jan 14, 2008 7:35 PM
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ezeedad
270 posts
Jan 14, 2008
7:36 PM
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Wayne,
Thanks for your response. Glad to see that the standard is being held high..!!
Are there still any breeders trying to get those competition style birds into the contests.?? If so, how do you prevent them from lowering quality of roll... or should I say how do you maintian the quality when quantity has been sso much on the rise?
A while back we were having a sort of parallel conflict in our lawn shows, when the show rollers were being judged with the flying rollers. The show rollers were doing pretty well for a while, until a stricter flying standard started being enforced.
Paul
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ezeedad
271 posts
Jan 14, 2008
7:49 PM
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George,
I haven't been to all of the people you mention. But I'm sure I've seen hundreds of different flyers birds. I am not new at this either..
Pensom said "There are many more good kits than good birds." I am sure that all the guys you mention have had high class pigeons.. But the purpose of this type of competition is to isolate the BEST roller.. And you kind of make it sound like they are all the same to you.
I have had rollers since 1960.. I've gotten birds from Pensom and flown them..I have sort of a long history in the hobby you might say... so I'm not just talking of the top of my head.
Gomez
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George R.
43 posts
Jan 14, 2008
8:31 PM
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Pual
If you ever get a chance to go see some of those guys birds fly you will understand what I am talking about.
I know you have been in the Hobby for years and you are very expierenced with Birmingham rollers.
But until youve seen what is flying now days you may want to wait a minute before you say that superior rollers are rare. Myself and others have seen lots of good spinners at these guys houses flying in whole kits.
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smoke747
517 posts
Jan 14, 2008
11:24 PM
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Laron, Paul,
The thing that worries me about the individual comp. fly is that, after all of the discussions on the individual performance v's kit performance that the individual guys participate as strongly as the kit guys will. The guys like; Steve S., Hector C., Keith L., Rayvon H.,John M., Rod F., Steve R.,Alonzo C., Ramilio H., participate in every fly that has come into play in the LA AREA . these men want to be a part of all flying competitions. We will expect the individual guys to show 100% also. Lets stop talking and get it crackin. How do we set this up. We are pumped up for this.
smoke747
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elopez
364 posts
Jan 15, 2008
12:36 AM
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Let me know too. I want to be part of this list as well. I want to enter all comps if I can.
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
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gotspin7
1219 posts
Jan 15, 2008
4:23 AM
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Keith, dont forget about the long distance people too!LOL, I am game or should I say I will compete as well!LOL
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Sal Ortiz
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3757
491 posts
Jan 15, 2008
6:30 AM
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Keith - I do not know all of the names you mentioned but I met with Hector Coya and the SGVS and discussed individual competitions for their club. They were already discussing it and are planning on doing one in the near future. The PRC individual fly rules are the rules that I gave to Hector. I would like to meet with you and what we can do is have the best individual spinner from each club go up against the other clubs. This would make it a lot easier short of like qualifying. Give me a call so that we can discuss it further. The other option is what I called you on before and that is having a one loft individual competition. In this manner we could get more individuals involved other than just local guys. Planning is the key to this being successful it is like good loving - Take our time and it will be a success :)
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COYOTE33
37 posts
Jan 15, 2008
6:43 AM
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Laron, what do you mean by one loft competition, that one got by me?
coyote
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3757
492 posts
Jan 15, 2008
7:03 AM
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Coyote - One loft competition would be an individual bird competiton based on the 30 point system and all birds would be sent to one loft and flown at the same location.
Keith - I will do my best to help, participate and get this going however I feel that if you look at the statistics participation is never 100 percent in anything. As you can see Paul and I have been trying to bring this to the forefront as best we can to date. The PRC will have a representative from our club!
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CSRA
1150 posts
Jan 15, 2008
7:22 AM
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Keith i got your back lets make the the ground shake baby
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CSRA
1151 posts
Jan 15, 2008
7:27 AM
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Laron i think you should set it up yourself and we will particpate in it on your rules 30pts rules it would be nice to have the individual guys to show up in numbers
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3757
493 posts
Jan 15, 2008
7:43 AM
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Steve - As a professor at the college and a full time engineer in Aerospace I cannot do this alone. If this is to be successful it will take a team effort and individuals must understand the rules. We have not even discussed the rules with each club yet and we cannot jump the gun. However, I will set this up and get some dates out and work with Keith. We will start out locally (Southern California) and go forward. I hope that individuals are interested in learning and enjoying and not have the win, win spirit because it is not about us but breeding better birds in all aspects both kit and individual. I am calling it the West Coast spinner series.
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George R.
45 posts
Jan 15, 2008
7:45 AM
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I agree since Pual and Laron know the rules better then anyone ,one of them should host the fly.
Let me know as soon as you guys decide and I will sent my entry money to hold my spot.
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3757
494 posts
Jan 15, 2008
7:55 AM
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Paul - Give me a call.
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smoke747
525 posts
Jan 15, 2008
9:33 AM
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Aren't Arnold Jackson's rules very similar or the same?
smoke747
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elopez
366 posts
Jan 15, 2008
9:34 AM
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I'm in. Can't wait to see some true spinners.
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
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3757
496 posts
Jan 15, 2008
10:19 AM
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Smoke - These are the same rules that we used in the SBRC and currently for the PRC. Arnold was the President of the SBRC at one time. I also think that most did not read my post that these rules were created for our club to certify spinners. I hope everyone understands that the purpose of these rules for SBRC, PRC and Pauls club were used it for that purpose. In 5 years we only certified two that could score between the 27-30
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smoke747
531 posts
Jan 15, 2008
11:03 AM
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Thats good Laron. I look forward to working with you guys.
smoke747
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Skylineloft
946 posts
Jan 15, 2008
11:33 AM
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"The West Coast Spinner Series"
Has a nice ring to it!!!!!
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
Last Edited by on Jan 16, 2008 11:45 AM
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Skylineloft
949 posts
Jan 15, 2008
2:40 PM
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La Ron,
You can call the single bird fly what ever you like and I do want to be a part of this. But, I just want you to know that there is a club here in Southern California with that name. Its been in existence since 1994. This is a old article from the NBRC.
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
Last Edited by on Jan 16, 2008 11:45 AM
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3757
497 posts
Jan 15, 2008
2:51 PM
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Ray - Correct me if I am wrong but you do not have series at the end of your club name correct?
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Skylineloft
950 posts
Jan 15, 2008
2:56 PM
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You are correct La Ron.
I just wanted you to be aware of how close they are.
If you feel thats the name you want to use I will not push the issue.
I will also help you with this fly in any way I can.
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
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3757
498 posts
Jan 15, 2008
3:18 PM
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Ray - I think we will change the name to Cajun spinners series west lmao
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Skylineloft
951 posts
Jan 15, 2008
3:43 PM
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How about.......
California Performing Roller Series,
Inner City Roller Series,
Nonstop Roller Series,
San Diego Spinner Series,
The list could go on and on.
La Ron,
Ask any of these clubs here about how they would feel with these names.
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
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smoke747
536 posts
Jan 15, 2008
4:31 PM
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Look at Steve Lord. I haven't seen him in about 10yrs or so.
smoke747
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Skylineloft
952 posts
Jan 15, 2008
6:10 PM
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Keith,
Recognize any of these flyers ?
World cup champion and a master flyer award winner from the NBRC in this one.
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
Last Edited by on Jan 16, 2008 11:46 AM
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ezeedad
272 posts
Jan 15, 2008
8:26 PM
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Keith,
Slow down Bro... You're trying to get me to come out of semi retirement... And you don't expect much do you..!! Compete as strongly as the hard core flyers..??
Hey now.. you've just barely seen me showing my face lately... I've been an arm chair flyer.. sort of like a Monday morning daydreamer... You're trying to yank me out of my comfortable recliner and put me on the road..??
First I have to just get the time to fly...period.. Then when I do have them rolling I should be able to come up with something... Meanwhile, I'll want to start back to going on some flies, and see if I can help with getting it going.
Actually, I think that a better idea would be to have the guys challenge each other when they think that they have the best bird.... Like back in Pensoms' day in England.
Then we can limit the flies, and travel time. Competing just for the sake of competing seems like a waste of time to a certain extent. Plus birds get hot then cool off...I want to see them at their best..
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smoke747
537 posts
Jan 15, 2008
8:41 PM
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Paul I'm ready to go. Iknow you are not the only individual flyer out there besides Laron. You can kick back and help get us started. I think Ron Dent is trying to start clubing again.
smoke747
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