I have Plona and these go back to Pensom/Smith. Thor is right in that these birds tend to be slightly on the strong side (lots of depth) and are generally high-flyers. Kitting is not a general problem though. Some of the flyers here at Deep Spin Lofts have kitted like grapes in the past on sunny days. Like just about everyone though, I get some good days and some bad ones too.
Managing them is something I'm working on. Of all the roller families I've ever had.... these appear to be the some of the smartest. Also, I've noticed that my cocks are arrogant, erratic and always horny with this particular family.
I've crossed some Norm Reed tick Lavender's with a Redcheck hen and Black beard in hopes of increasing the frequency in the roll.... only with a slight bit of luck so far. This will be my 3rd year with the Norm Reed crosses and have 2 more years to go with this 5 year breeding program I have engineered.
{P.S.} I like them a lot, but still feel there always room for gradual improvement. The key idea here is how to improve the birds without screwing the family up in the process.
"Thor - I never had an issue with loose kitting but you have to remember the Pensom lines (Smith, Plona, Bill Pensom etc) were bred for high velocity and style. They were not bred for breaks. I am glad that you are sticking with it as so many go with what is popular"
LaRon, this statement has always confused me, you don't have to breed these or any birds to break, it is in their nature and it is the stimulation of birds rolling that makes the others go, Pensom himself speaks of it many times,that it the reason they are flown in kits. The highest quality is always going to be in a kit that is on point where they are fully commiting to the roll, if they are rolling individuly there is a reason for it, put them in a kit of their like and they will break together unless they are unstable or being led by stiffs that are leading the team. Many are flying the old blood in competition including KGB and myself, and they do very very well and have been on top of the major flys many times. Also, for myself I like some cast, it tends to smooth them out. ---------- Scott
Last Edited by on Feb 04, 2008 7:19 AM
Man Thor! those are nice pictures of 202 and 3844. i remember the picture of 3844, i think its from kowalski's book but that picture of 202 is very nice,beautiful bird. now i see were his son gets the look from, you should see his grand daughter, she is a knock out. how did you get the black spangle from nauer? this plona family is a very nice family of birds. thanks for the post Thor!
Whats going on good time! i hav'nt talk to you in a while, you are still hanging in there thats good. no i never did get any thing out of that hen, it would have been nice.
Wow, did not know that the Tom Stone '86-604 made it's way all the way to Cali. The parents to that 604 seems to have been a click pair as it is found in many, many of the pedigrees I have look at in this family.
Thanks for sharing the info... I'll make note of the color for my breeding records.
Coyote,
I knew you would be interested in seeing a photo of that 202 bird. I had my hands on a couple of his sons and one daughter this one year. Got one keeper out of the lot as before kissing away the kit to an over fly. The 202 stuff were nice birds to work with.
That Nauer Black Mottle cock bird photoed above is the father to a hen I received on loan one year. He and the mate was sold the same year I found this family/before my time. My guy, Mr. Brueggemeier had him and his mate last before letting them go to some one in AZ (if I recall right).
HEY! Thor i remember when i first got my plona's from dick nauer,he sent me two pairs and told the other guy's in minn to send some pairs to me and make sure they sent their best, that's when i got birds from john white and mr brueggemeier. brian and i were surpose to exchange kits one year. coyote
I'm still working the Plona's and Reed lines in hope of producing a strong family of performers. I have produced a few off colored dark birds that perform just magnificently!
NOTE: The thing to keep in mind here is to "Breed Best To Best" paying very little attention to color.
WHP Quote: "It is certain that colors and markings cannot be cultivated without a decided loss in the quality of deep spinning". W.H. Pensom
Thor Blake Coates and I have a Plona line of birds that I got 12 years ago and have had great success. What does John Johnson fly in you area. He came out with Dave Gehrke for the fall fly and was a very likeable guy. I may have to get him to come back and judge if he would. Gail Peterson doen't have birds any more is that right? Brad winward
Last Edited by on Dec 10, 2008 8:29 AM
That 202 Lavender Cock bird photo was sent to me by Mr. Peterson a couple of years ago. Gail is a lifer but would like to just keep things to himself now a days. Most of the old timers seem to be like this and it is just fine with me. Last I heard from him, he said that he will be retiring soon and will have more time on play with the birds. He was even thinking about getting some Racing Homers. All of his current birds now trace back to that 202 bird up above (heavily, heavily inbred).
John is a good friend and also a lifer. I visit him as many times as possible as he only lives across the lake. I would say that John's birds are of his own. He's had them for ever now. I believe his originals came from a local veteran Flier who kept nothing but Bob Evan birds. I believe Dave Gehrke had birds from the same source. If you ever get a chance again to meet John... he would be delighted to talk about the origins of his birds and every thing else that came about with them. He has got some stories!! :)
I know John crossed in a Stan Plona bred Lavender Cock bird in the late 80s or was that the early 90s to put more velocity into his family. It was also to introduce the spread gene into his family which before that did not process that color. I don't recall this Lavender Cock bird's band number but do recall it being a key bird over here for the Stan Plona followers of that time. John has also crossed in a few more birds to add certain things he desired in the last 10 years. These are his side families. I know he still keeps a PURE (as we like to call it) line just to cross things back into.
Hope that helps... John is a great guy and a model Roller man. Loves any thing about Rollers. I don't think he would mind at all with any judging duties.
Don't know how much help that was, Thor
paused at 6:40 is the bird John crossed in. Lavender Mark Stan Plona bred cock.
---------- It's all about the friends we make :)
Last Edited by on Dec 10, 2008 3:04 PM
Longroller
GOLD MEMBER
80 posts
Dec 10, 2008
4:24 PM
Thor Interseting... thanks for posting. So are your birds from G. Peterson? I know what you mean about old timer not wanting to be bothered. The man I got my birds from only likes us locals around. We did get him to fly with us and now he is enjoying his birds much more. Brad winward
Not exactly. There were two major influences back in the 70s to early 80s here in MN. One was David D. Kowalski. The other was Gail Peterson. This was before my time. Both fellas played a major role in bring these birds to our state. Later in the 80s. Still before my time, a fellow named Dick Nauer and John White came into the picture. Most of my original breeders were either bred by one or the other. My birds has All four breeders above in their back ground in one form or another. I also have a line that I am working with from Tom Stone of PA.
When I got into this family of Rollers. Dick Nauer had all ready left the scene. John White was starting to keep to himself. I was fortunate enough to meet two local fliers by the name of Brian Brueggemeier and Phil Tidd. These two were friends of Dick and John White. When Dick got out of rollers, it went to three people. Coyote, Brian and Phil. Coyote and Brian got most of the Gail Peterson line of birds. For some reason, Phil opted to take the Tom Stone line of birds. In the 80s, Dick Nauer was a big fan of the Tom Stone birds. Because of this, he went on to purchase many of Tom's best lines.
After seeing what this family could do in the air. I went and got my hands of Brian and Phils original breeders. They were either bred by John White or Dick Nauer or Tom Stone as I stated before. My reason was, I wanted to build my own family from the source. I was also trying my best to get birds as close to Stan Plona breds as possible. I was able to obtain some Gail bred birds but by then, they either were barren or infertile.
Well, I rambled long enough. I don't think there are many Gail birds out there. Gail was so strict on who got his birds or birds leaving his property that only a few select souls received his stock.
Boy it is cold outside, Thor
P.S. I have opted to not work with David Kowalski's birds. This was just a personal choice of mine. Maybe there is one or two Kowalski birds in the back ground of what I have.
---------- It's all about the friends we make :)
Last Edited by on Dec 10, 2008 11:45 PM
Thor - It is interesting that you mentioned Tom Stone again. Tom was an awesome guy. I always noticed that his birds had a different build than others who bred Plona stock. A good friend of mine, Thurmond, had a couple of Stone birds. The hen was a red check bald (long cast) and she was a nice bird. When you mentioned John I assumed that you were speaking of John White?
Good post Thor!I haven't been able to see the video yet i'm at work but i'll view it later. Dick really loved the tom stone side of the family. i have a half brother sister mating out of the the 202 cock, im excited! the old boy quit on me this year, i think he is about 21 now. have you ever heard of jim fisher? when dick sent me the rest of his birds he included the fisher stuff, what do you know?
Coyote - Jim is also on the video (the first part of it) he had Plona stock. Both Ocshe and John White dispersed his birds when he died in the 90's. Jim also did well in the competition circuit. Thor may be able to fill in more information.
"Hope that helps... John is a great guy and a model Roller man. Loves any thing about Rollers. I don't think he would mind at all with any judging duties." - I was referring to Mr. Johnson.
"Not exactly. There were two major influences back...one or two Kowalski birds in the back ground of what I have." - This whole post was about Mr. White
Hope that helps, Thor
---------- It's all about the friends we make :)
Longroller
GOLD MEMBER
88 posts
Dec 16, 2008
9:10 PM
Good times..very nice birds..keep posting pictures and history guy.
I can only refer to what the fliers here tell me about the family of birds I received. Nice to see it from another straight source. I was told that the birds were purchased from Mr. Stone, maybe I was mis informed?
I personally had several Tom Stone bred birds on hand one year. None came with pedigrees but I trusted the source to be of the same family I was working with. All birds banded with Tom's personal bands. I have selected to only work with two legs of the birds I bred out of. Would enjoy some feed back on what you have for flying records on that side?
I flew and stocked 2 birds from this bird here 1998-074. I know nothing about the parents (pedigree or flying record). Parents are 1995-TS-20369 (Blue Bar Badge Cock bird) x 1995-TS-20307 (Red Grizzle Hen).
I also have a son that was bred out of 1987-TS-174 (nothing was written down for this bird besides it being out of 14686 x '86-TS-633) x 1988 NBRC 589 (I have on there that you bred the father of this bird here). The father of 589 was 1984 - 990.
Thanks... a head of time.
P.S. The info you gave is a keeper in my books as I know little about the Stone side of my family. I am working more from the birds Mr. Peterson brought in.
P.S.S. Most of the Tom Stone birds that came here is still very much a live. As you might all ready know, they live a long life...
---------- It's all about the friends we make :)
Last Edited by on Jan 04, 2009 5:32 PM
The birds I had that were banded with Mr. Stone's personal bands were pretty ugly, type wise that is. For some reason, they were also on the wilder side than I care for. Very jumpy!
Of course, the birds I had were only from a small portion of Stones family. Maybe they were just the birds I had there were like this. If I can dig up some photos I took. You would probably enjoy look at them again, maybe you even had a hand on them at one time or another.
Thor
---------- It's all about the friends we make :)
Last Edited by on Jan 05, 2009 4:26 PM
PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2273 posts
Jan 04, 2009
6:16 PM
Hi Tom Even though I’ve never had the privilege of meeting you or Tom Stone in person, I have had the privilege of handling a few birds that were breed by you and Mr. Stone. The types was there, but were little on the big side when compared to other families. According to Tom Hatcher, David Kowalski got most if not all of Plonas birds when he died. Tom Stones birds may have been a little on the big side but never ugly. If I remember correctly you band you birds TJF and Tom Stone band them TS.
hey Tom! my name is Darryl Wylie aka coyote. the guy you refer to in minn is that Dick nauer? when Dick got out of birds, i received all of his stock and some of the pedigrees have your name on them. I know dick spoke of you and stone but i didnt know you still had birds. the plona's are a pure breed roller, so they are much different from most of the birds that have been crossed up. they are not pretty birds but the strenght on these birds are outstanding. but like you said you have to be able to handle them. i really appreciate your input thanks for the individuality. coyote
Tom - I would have to concur with Thor on the samples that I handled here in California but they could spin. Now, you have to remember that is only a small random sample of what a few breeders here in California ended up with of the Tom Stone birds. Thor’s sampling I believe was in a totally different state. This sampling size most likely did not measure the majority population of Tom’s birds and many realize that. I also noticed that many of these birds were and are built differently than the McCully pigeons that I have from Herb Sparkes or the Pensom birds in general even though they have the same origins going back to 463/1613 etc. This is truly meaningless as the goal is to produce birds that can spin with the highest velocity and style possible. I hope all is well.
Several members here have taken the time to fill out their "personal profile"! You can click on the user names and their profile will pop up giving info on their birds and identity.
I will also try to bring the Who's who list forwards, maybe a few new guys will take time to update it!
Thanks again for sharing with us and I hope you hang around! ---------- Val
Tom - It has been quite some time since we last spoke and I hope all is well. Do you still have contact with Ron M? I really like the ones you sent Jim as they are beauties. Also, I agree with you as well on if they spin correctly the type is right. I hope all is well.
("the goal is to produce birds that can spin with the highest velocity and style possible" says a mouthful. If your birds in the air meet this criteria, you can't be far off the track in selecting them for the stock pen. That sentence of yours is very succinct and sums it up better than anything I have read in a while. We should all put placards with this over the entry door to our lofts. I too have an engineering background, my caveat being, if the roll is right then, by definition, the type is right.)
Good post ! Honestly I think many actually head the wrong direction by putting too much stock into what they "think" is the right type. Personaly when I take a bird out of the air I give little or no consideration to type. I will look much harder at the mental aspect of the bird, my birds which go back to McCully also will balloon up once stocked, but then the best in the team are more of a med to med small bird. ---------- Just my Opinion Scott
Last Edited by on Jan 07, 2009 7:02 AM
Scott - "I think many actually head the wrong direction by putting too much stock into what they "think" is the right type" This is absolutely true (Show Pen Spinners) and I will add to this by saying they put stock in it and the bird has never even hit the air!
Here is the daughter (Blue Bar Badge Hen) I was using off them. This daughter bred some real nice styled fast rollers. I had her on a 1986 AU 630 Blue Check badge Cock (photoed in this thread) for some years. The son is the T-Check Bronze bird in the photo. They produced me some nice birds in the air.
Here is a full brother to the T-Check above: Below is 2000 MFRG 2656
I have a son of him that is un real.
Thor ---------- It's all about the friends we make :)
Thanks for all the info. That would help me fill in some blanks as for back ground purposes.
This family sure is a plain in the butt but I am seeing enough quality spins to keep at it and see where I brings me.
I get ripped on a lot by some of the veteran fliers here that my birds feel too hollowed out. Thing is, it doesn't take much feed to get them up. Over due it and might as well wait 4 plus hours for them to come back down.
I am really glad that you posted.
Thanks again,
Thor
---------- It's all about the friends we make :)
Last Edited by on Jan 08, 2009 12:59 PM
Any chance you have photos of the birds the guys there had access to? Would be great comparing the differences, even tho we are talking about photos here. I'm a sucker for any Roller photos...
Hey! Tom and Thor, great post guys, you are right Thor this family is pretty durable and flighty. one tip Mr.Nauer told me on how to watch the feed because they are so strong is toss feed from your hand out of a can until the first one raises his head and thats your signal to stop. I've been pretty successful with that method, try it it might work Thor. Its really great to talk to some plona guys, some guys dont even know what they are. Tom, dick got out of rollers because he move up to his cabin and the hawks are very bad where he is, he still misses them, i talk to him from time to time. I'll try and get some pictures my self so you can see some of my plona's from the same group. coyote
Plona's are a strong family but I don't have a problem with the first year birds. The young birds seem to stay at a good height unless you over feed. It is the second year that you can't give them the extra grain of wheat. I have found that red white doesn't work with these birds it needs to be white wheat. Simple taking the feed away from the plona's will only make them fly higher and longer. Flying rollers is an art..scientifically you can come up a program to fly but.. those who know how to ...read the birds..seem to get much more out of the rollers more consistantly. I can pedigree trace my Plona birds back to the Imports..thats past Avon..it doesn't do me much good ..it only for interest.. but I only refer to the birds that I have breed in the last few years..the competition flies let me know were I stand in the roller world. When I first got the birds that I now have I noticed.. the roll/spin they had.. it was then I started to trace the pedigree back. I figured that birds that could spin that good must have a gene pool behind them. Good Luck with your Plona birds ..For me these Plonas are going to be around for years to come. I'm not sure how many of you compete in flys....I have found that you learn so much more about your birds and feeding when the pressures is on. brad winward
Last Edited by on Jan 08, 2009 9:07 AM
