Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2113 posts
Jan 30, 2008
6:47 AM
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I started this new topic because I felt it really didn't fit the thread it was in too well.
Hey Bill, good post! My passion is for the Ideal Birmingham Roller, that's how I started and thats how I want to end!
While there are those that would ridicule or demean the efforts of those who desire the Ideal Birmingham Roller and who believe it can be accomplished without competing, it is my opinion that competition has led to more good rollers being preyed on and destroyed because of the "pressure" by others to compete.
Whereas, from my point of view, I can pick and choose my fly times without the pressure of an upcoming fly date to make me put up birds when I know I shouldn't.
My opinion is that there is ALLOT of PEER PRESSURE TO COMPETE to go against better judgment when you know the bop are "out there"...waiting for you to release.
While I know Pensom said that competition would destroy the Birmingham Roller, I don't think he had in mind the ramifications that competition would have on a few bad apples who's desire to compete at any and all costs could lead to such a black eye on the hobby.
I am thinking that perhaps the future of the hobby is to get away from competition as it is now organized and fly the true Birmingham Roller for the love of the breed and joy of the performance, not the thrill of competition at any cost.
Is the 1 bird fly the wave of the future?
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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Santandercol
1881 posts
Jan 30, 2008
7:24 AM
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Could very well be,Tony.When I'm flying the Doneks they have not been attacked up till now as they are flown in groups of 2 or 3 and don't attract the BOPs.The trouble is getting the individual Roller to perform when not in a kit.
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Kel.
Rum-30 Lofts
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sundance
420 posts
Jan 30, 2008
8:02 AM
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This individual topic has been around before and I think it is a good thing. Is it possible to fly the roller with anouther breed? I have read somewhere that they used to fly 3 or 5 birds in a kit. only one roller to be scored with the rest being non rolling birds. puts the odds of an attack in better favor for the roller too. If a bird is taken 80% chance it will not be the roller being scored.You might be onto something Tony, as a way to compete and work around the pred issues.
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Butch @
Sundance Roller Lofts
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smoke747
697 posts
Jan 30, 2008
11:20 AM
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A little of both. You can not expect to get better without notice of the good individual spinners. Our goal is to put a kit of these in the AIR. This takes several years of flying, culling, breeding, and selecting. and some LUCK.
SMOKE747
Last Edited by on Jan 30, 2008 11:22 AM
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SAT Roller
91 posts
Jan 30, 2008
12:29 PM
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Good topic..
In the past I competed; however, I never did very well except for a couple times when everything just happen to come together and the birds performed like I was the only one in my back yard watching them.
I know why that is as I always liked the deep ones, even if it cost me time and not being scored due to birds not able to get back quick enough.
I much prefer quality of spin/depth over a whole bunch of activity....
I don't have any of my old birds as I got out of Rollers years ago. I hope the ones I will be weaning shortly are up to the challenge. They don't have to be super deep, I just hope the quality in the spin is there, I can get the depth out of them over a period of years God willing.
Richard
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kcfirl
261 posts
Jan 30, 2008
1:05 PM
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Tony,
I think what you say about competitions causng some to lose good birds is true. For many years our local club held flies all year round - and I lost 30 kit birds my second year in to BOPS and trying to get ready for flies. I constantly tried to get the guys to change the fly shchedule and shut down in the winter and now we do. We fly sep - Oct and Mar - May. We end up flying a total of 6 or 7 flies and count WC and FF scores in the total for the year.
Now that I don't fly the birds much at all Dec + Jan, I loose about 10 birds a year. I'm looking forward to actually keeping and stocking more of the good uns.
Ken Firl
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Phantom1
175 posts
Jan 30, 2008
1:16 PM
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Tony,
I enjoy talking about this very point you bring up. I believe that competition flies have their place in this hobby just as the backyard/single bird focus does. In my opinion, the thought of competition "ruining" the Birmingham Roller applies more to the way the competition birds are bred, trained, and flown. When you're trying to get 20 birds to fit into this rigid box lined with rules and such, it's a challenge indeed. However, the breeder often finds themself focusing on any fault that will ultimately compromise the final score of the competition kit. Focusing on the quality of a single bird without any consequence or effect to the other 19 birds provides a lot more freedom and also allows the flier to examine the bird's performance with more scrutiny.
So I believe there's a place for both avenues. But I must say that my opinion, that will take a lot to change, is that the Birmingham Roller and the Competition Roller are indeed two different breeds. Although there may be some "pure" Birmingham Rollers being flow in competition today, they are often far from the mark of what was noted in the texts of many as for the description of what a BR is or should do. Then there's the reverse argument. Many backyard BR fliers have birds that fall short of the mark as well.
Competitive flying does offer one thing somewhat consistently however. That would be credibility. Not just with their birds, but with their knowledge and their support of the hobby/sport.
So...I believe each has their place in the future of the roller.
Eric
Last Edited by on Jan 30, 2008 1:17 PM
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wishiwon2
34 posts
Jan 30, 2008
6:13 PM
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Dead-on Eric, well put, to the point, AMEN.
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3757
551 posts
Jan 31, 2008
5:59 AM
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Tony - Great post!
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smoke747
709 posts
Jan 31, 2008
2:23 PM
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People will lose birds if they fly comp or not. I lose birds because I want to see them fly and roll and try to sneak a fly in. the blame is not on comp. but for love of what we all got into this hobby for, THE LOVE OF THE PIGEONS AND THE ROLL.
REMEMBER WHEN WE WERE GLAD JUST TO HAVE PIGEONS NO MATTER WHAT KIND THEY WERE.(AS KIDS)
SMOKE747
Last Edited by on Jan 31, 2008 2:27 PM
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SpinZone
12 posts
Jan 31, 2008
10:10 PM
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I fly in competition and the club that I am in has learned to limit are loses by not flying during the peak BOP season and this has minimized our loses. Being a competition guy I still love a deep quality spinning bird, and so does many of my club members. Because of this we have individual competitions as well, so I guess what I am saying is it does not matter whether you are into kit comp, individual, or showing Birmingham Rollers their is room for all of us and we all have one thing in common ( The Love for our little feather friends no matter what are reasons are ). Let's all do are part in keeping this hobby growing in all aspects.
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Shadow
25 posts
Jan 31, 2008
11:36 PM
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Discussion should be the science of compromise,to this end just what is an ideal roller,my definition or anothers,all eyes are different,there should and in most instances are a popular consensus to improve your rollers ability,through competions,or backyard flyers,both are important to the hobby,with a lot more emphasis on quality especially in flys,with fly rules catering and rewarding class rolls,not numerical movement,more flus,of 5 or 10 bird and individual birds,when all can chose and witness quality if present much easier than say 20 bird kit,ideal individual bird fly in my opinion nom bird is flown with four others,to encourage it,and for kitting aspect,but with all eyes at all time on individual,always, always,its got to be quality first,you cant ever lose sight of this,if we want to get closer to our ideal spinner.
Last Edited by on Jan 31, 2008 11:37 PM
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Mongrel Lofts
504 posts
Feb 01, 2008
11:33 PM
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Tony,
The TRUE and factual answer to your question is NO!!! KGB
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smoke747
722 posts
Feb 02, 2008
12:32 AM
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spinzone call me buddy.
smoke747
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Velo99
1568 posts
Feb 02, 2008
5:09 AM
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Tony,
If the focus is evenly divided between the two aspects of the sport,competetion is the "test" of the past few seasons birds.
There are many variables which can cause the overall picture to be skewed slightly. BOP and weather being the two biggest contributors. Even at that theres a judges comments section which can give an explanation as to what the judge feel the kit needs to be better.
Meanwhile back in the breeder box, you have the production side of the operation. Whether you foster or not whether you run an open loft or not,the fancier should know what is what and have the comments section of the score sheet as a guide if he needs it. It is here that each flyer develops his style of kitbirds. Do you breed for frequent short yo yo`s or a more eloquent kit of deeper stylish birds that can really show the roll? The choice is actually up to the individual flyer,do I breed yo-yo`s or rollers?
Personally I feel that for the most part if one can get a consistent 20-25 turns of nice 25-35 or deeper rollers together he can win comeptetions and wow anyone who ever has the privelege to see the kit.
In summation I think that the two should complement each other rather than be detrimental to the fancy. By diligence among the long term participants,the sport should thrive.
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V99
Keep the best. Eat the rest.
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
1088 posts
Feb 02, 2008
5:13 AM
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Good morning Kenny..........
Great posting..
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RUDY PAYEN
PANCHO VILLA LOFT
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Scott Campbell
7 posts
Feb 02, 2008
10:29 PM
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One bird comp ?
Not a bad idea , we could just keep one bird in the house in a Canary cage, on fly day we just open the window and the cage door.
Scott
PS dont forget to open the window first !!!
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trevsta65
249 posts
Feb 02, 2008
10:33 PM
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lol scott,cheers trev
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nicksiders
2522 posts
Feb 02, 2008
10:40 PM
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I have always thought of the Birmingham Roller as a kit bird. The same is true with many other Rollers.
If you are wanting a one bird fly you should consider the Oriental Roller.
Nick Siders
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Scott Campbell
11 posts
Feb 02, 2008
11:07 PM
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Penson quote on competition was based soley on Birminghams flying under competion tumbler rules, and he did compete in England.
The rules of today are strictly for Birmingham Rollers, although I have to admit under some judges you wouldn't know it.
Scott
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3757
564 posts
Feb 03, 2008
5:29 AM
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Scott - Glad you are back. If you had one bird in a canary cage you could never fly in our individual fly because the minimum is 10 birds. Second, the original Black country fly's were always based on individual competitions. I have to agree with you on one thing and I wrote and article about show pen spinners. When it comes to fly day all talk is out of the door. I always remember Arnold Jackson telling us before the fly if your birds are not ready you may get laughed at!
First the birds are judged on speed (1-10), style (1-10), frequency (1-5) and depth (1-5). Second, a person can fly the individual birds in two types of competitions and they are single bird fly and multiple bird fly. The chosen pigeon for the single bird fly has to be identified by the judges 3 judges min for each fly. The band number and color is recorded before the bird is released and the bird must be identifiable in the kit. If you have all dark checks the bird shall be identified by whatever can distinguish it (Tape, paint, one white, flight). The bird has to perform correctly at least three times. For example if a bird shrinks and turns into a pea once and does not do it again you have no score. If he or she does it twice you still have no score. The objective is to have birds in the champion category which is 27-30 points. You can see that speed and style means nothing without frequency and depth also as a component. What good is it if a bird only spins once, twice or three times in 20 minutes!
Last Edited by on Feb 03, 2008 5:33 AM
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Missouri-Flyer
1255 posts
Feb 03, 2008
7:28 AM
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Well spoken Dave,
I am not sure what the interest in single bird comp. is about. In every loft around the country, there will be atleast 1 above average bird that could and would compete against any other out there. It is an easy task to just get 1 bird to do it right, but to get enough to make up a kit, and to win is another cup of tea altogether.
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
414 posts
Feb 03, 2008
8:35 AM
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3757 and I have competed in using the thirty point system which I feel is the ideal rules for competion most people do not have a understanding of the concept. Members of are club(SBRC) entered competion like the cali classic and placed well.
R_LUNA
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Scott Campbell
16 posts
Feb 03, 2008
8:43 AM
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LaRon , he flew in kit comps also, and that is how he made his obversation over time.
The fact is with the wrong judges what he speaks of does come full circle, and we are seeing far to much of that these days.
As I stated in another post, a bird is an individule fist, and good teams are built of such birds.
Note that I said "good" teams, personly one great bird does little for me, give me a hammer break of such birds and the hair on my neck stands up.
There is nothing wrong with Ind. flys if that gets your cookie, but a bird is always going to show you it's best and fully commit within a break close to its kind.
It is hard work assembling good teams, and it isn't done with youngbirds.
Scott
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hectorvicki2003@yaho
216 posts
Feb 03, 2008
8:55 AM
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Well said Dave Szab.This remind's me of the USA soccer federation,back in the 80's they whent to FIFA and asked if thay could make the goals wider and taller by 6 inches,just becouse our players couldnt score they wanted to make the rules easyer,FiFA laft at us,so we came home and worked harder to be at a decent world level,not the best but getting there.
The only people that dont like competition are the once that find it hard to win.ask any of the top 10 W/C winners what they think of comp.
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Hector Coya - SGVS
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RO
146 posts
Feb 03, 2008
8:56 AM
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Great post Dave Szab.
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Ro
Last Edited by on Feb 03, 2008 8:58 AM
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Mongrel Lofts
507 posts
Feb 03, 2008
9:00 AM
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Hi Speed,
I'm a competition guy all the way.. I have nothing against flying a single bird championship. I flew in the California Classic and I even managed and flew the Calif, Classic at my house one year. I had to take a year off from my own birds to do that. I won the Classic one year and placed high 3 years and top 20, Five years. I have also done well in the WC, National and Local level clubs I have been a member of. My point here is to agree with Keith London when he said.. Give me the individuals from the top flyers in the Big flys and they will win most of the individual bird flys against the one bird flyers. But fly the one bird flyers against the best kit flyers and they won't stand a chance! The best individuals I have seen flown were flown in great kits of rollers! PERIOD.
The guys trying to compete work much harder at getting the most from their birds. They understand a great family and team don't just happen. Its built and worked hard to achieve. A guy can talk all day about how great his birds can roll. The thing is, when you open the kit loft door with a yard full of people and the judge. All the BS and bragging stops and the TRUTH is spoken by the rollers! Man, have these rollers ever deflated my ego on a big fly with a yard full of spectators! Thing about flying competition, it keeps the BS REAL! The birds do the talking and all we can do is set back on a good day and say yea!! That's what I'm talking about!! On a bad, Say man I have some work to do, Sorry guys.. I will WORK harder to have em smoken next time! PUT UP OR SHUT UP, Keeps it REAL. Keeps the breed honest! No fairy tales once you open the door for all to judge! Just my honest opinion.. KGB
Last Edited by on Feb 03, 2008 9:03 AM
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3757
567 posts
Feb 03, 2008
9:29 AM
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Richard - I agree. I am still an advocate of the 30 point system for my pleasure. As Scott stated whatever boils another’s crawfish is ok with me but I like what I like and they like what they like. There is no right or wrong in this case
Last Edited by on Feb 05, 2008 3:25 AM
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George R.
101 posts
Feb 03, 2008
10:38 AM
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good points! I still believe that a Ideal Birmingham Roller can and does hold it's own in any kind of Roller competetion
Individual, 11 Bird, 20 Bird,
That is what I try to breed and train for and I will enter any competetion that I can because that makes me push my program a little harder.
Every time I fly my birds I am looking for any reason to Cut a team member.
Last Edited by on Feb 03, 2008 10:39 AM
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ezeedad
300 posts
Feb 03, 2008
10:53 AM
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Tony,
I do agree with most of what you say a lot. Especially with the way that scheduled competitions make you do many things which are against your better judgement.
When I first was introduced to kit competitions, I had already been flying rollers for about twelve years. The idea that they were being scored for how many rolled at the same time was kind of wierd to me. I still don't care much about how many birds roll at the same time. In fact I would rather see them peel off say..three or four ay a time so that I can get a good look at what they are really doing.
Also, the birds I really want to see are NOT being flown in kit competitions... WHY..?? Because they are too deep and will affect the scoring...
I think that most people would prefer to see the best that the breed has to offer, and that there must be something wrong with a scoring system that penalizes the superstars of the breed.
Really I thing the way the roller breeders in England used to do it was best. They met at the pub, which was the local meeting place for breeders of all sorts of sporting animals. When a rollerman had a high quality spinner going hot he would issue a challenge and if others thought they had better the competition was on..
Tony, this site can be like the pub.. Maybe that sort of thing can be reborn here...
Gomez
Last Edited by on Feb 03, 2008 10:55 AM
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Scott Campbell
19 posts
Feb 03, 2008
11:13 AM
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"Also, the birds I really want to see are NOT being flown in kit competitions... WHY..?? Because they are too deep and will affect the scoring... '
This makes no sence what so ever , kits with solid depth are rewarded heavily, short workers aren't
If they are that deep it is very unlikely that they have the quality as it is a stability issue and few such birds can hold it from start to finish,there are limits to what these birds can do and do it right and still hold it together.
And if they are that deep they are young birds, such birds don't live long unless they get a handle on it in which case they shorten it up but the quality also improves.
I don't know of any flyer not breeding for quality and depth first, but they have to have the mental glue to hold it together,that is the hard part, if they have the mental glue/stability it is a non issue, what I wrote above is the nature of the breed, it is that simple.
Again,kits with solid depth are rewarded heavily, short workers aren't
Scott
Last Edited by on Feb 03, 2008 12:14 PM
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George R.
104 posts
Feb 03, 2008
11:23 AM
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luis
597 posts
Feb 03, 2008
11:42 AM
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I will never argue that comps bring exellence to light!Although the variables can be to many on any given fly day,some do make it to the top on a regular basis.These guys should be applauded for their skill(i hope to be there with this breed some day).What i don't like is when we become critical or put others down for their choices and beliefs.Instead we should be a little more diplomatic when trying to persuade some that have left the comp scene or when trying to make a point.We all share the same passion and that is pigeons.
ps:Very nice George.How are the birds coming along.I took your advice and i'm trying to concentrate on my Higgins/Reed birds, although i still have a few Scott pairs to work with.Fernando was nice enough to help me with some birds.If i'm not mistaken i think they're very similar to your line of birds.
Last Edited by on Feb 03, 2008 11:58 AM
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ezeedad
301 posts
Feb 03, 2008
12:14 PM
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Scott,
"Also, the birds I really want to see are NOT being flown in kit competitions... WHY..?? Because they are too deep and will affect the scoring... "
If what I said makes no "sense".. then why is it that I've heard that comment from so many flyers?? ]
I'm not talking about the two or three month wonders that are going to end up eating it. I'm not talking about the deep dishrags either... I'm talking about birds that take longer getting back to the kit and which affect the score.
Gomez
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Scott Campbell
23 posts
Feb 03, 2008
12:30 PM
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Then I would say that it is the rest of the team members that are the problem, dump everything producing them and concentrate on the other(focus)but I might add that a good bird can slingshot back to the kit regardless of the depth.
If the deeper birds are still a problem with thier like then they are garbage anyway and it is a mute point, but if the stabiliy it there then they shouldn't be a proplem.
It is worth noting that condition also plays in on quality and depth, if the birds are strong they will roll shorter.
Truely good teams are built over time, and they aren't common, all must be brought together and then you have to hold onto them.
The 20 bird rules are in place for real Birmingham rollers when used properly , I breed my birds to push the limits as far as depth and quality, or at least try t.
Never do I breed for anything else, to do so would make no sense to me either.
Scott
Last Edited by on Feb 03, 2008 1:48 PM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2142 posts
Feb 03, 2008
2:31 PM
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Okay, be honest, raise your hand if you are exercising in circular thinking? LMAO!
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2143 posts
Feb 03, 2008
2:38 PM
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Hay dad, lol, I like it!
Okay, let's get this started, someone challenge someone in your area to a one on one fly and we will publicize it here and get you a crowd. We will get a perpetual trophy and we can watch this baby go all over the country. The winner has 30 days to challenge someone or accept a challenge, otherwise the trophy comes back here until we send it out to someone else.
What ya all think about that?
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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Scott Campbell
25 posts
Feb 03, 2008
2:43 PM
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I'll pit my best against Pauls in an individule, we are both in Calif. so it should be easy to do , set a date.
Scott
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George R.
111 posts
Feb 03, 2008
2:46 PM
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I will Challenge Mad Max he's in my area !!!
Tony how do I resize a pic ? or I will delete it it's to BIG
Last Edited by on Feb 03, 2008 2:47 PM
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ezeedad
302 posts
Feb 03, 2008
3:19 PM
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Scott,
That's not the way a REAL challenge works. Read what I wrote.
When you think you have a superior bird you issue an OPEN CHALLENGE TO ANYONE...so you should be willing to do this... Are you?
Last Edited by on Feb 03, 2008 3:23 PM
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Scott Campbell
27 posts
Feb 03, 2008
4:00 PM
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What on earth are you talking about Paul?
do you want to pit your best against my best as far as quality and depth or not ?
if so, set a date, if not just say so, thats how it works buddy, time to walk the talk, I'm offering as a kit flyer to play by your rules, what more do you want.
Scott
Last Edited by on Feb 03, 2008 4:32 PM
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George R.
112 posts
Feb 03, 2008
5:05 PM
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Scott and Pual
If we can get a judge get me in on the action !!
i'm always down for any fly any Rules against anybody .
Like Rick Flair used to say WHOOOOOOOOA !!!!!!
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ezeedad
303 posts
Feb 03, 2008
6:27 PM
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Scott,
My family of birds is fairly well known I think... Maybe not by you. I have a muff part of my
family that I would like to fly against anything you own. (minimum 1 inch beyond the toes)
So when we both have one we want to fly we can let each other know and somebody can judge them
using the 30 point system.
Gomez
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George R.
116 posts
Feb 03, 2008
7:15 PM
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Thats the spirit DAD !!!!
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Scott Campbell
29 posts
Feb 03, 2008
7:18 PM
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Yes the twinkie twirlers are known the world over LOL
Mine are well endowed (over an inch) name a date and we are on, win loose or draw,it will be fun.
PS what do you mean by "when" we have one ? you are kidding, right ?
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Scott
Last Edited by on Feb 03, 2008 7:37 PM
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Scott Campbell
30 posts
Feb 03, 2008
7:43 PM
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PS lets do it in June, that is a good month before the real heat hits, if you want to go earlier that is fine also.
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Scott
Last Edited by on Feb 03, 2008 8:21 PM
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Missouri-Flyer
1260 posts
Feb 03, 2008
8:10 PM
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Damn,
I see an outright challenge here!..Lets get it on.
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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smoke747
735 posts
Feb 03, 2008
11:09 PM
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Laron, i know where you are comming from. Try putting up 10 or more of these induviduls. Keep them together and learn how to get the most from them after 2 seasons of this you will start to see our point.
KGB, GREAT POST.
DZAB, GREAT ALSO
PAUL, I know you have birds that can spin, but things have changed since you went on a kit fly. The rules if followed make it impossible for short, sloppy, deep & sloppy rollers to win a comp unless the kit with the best spinners did not work together at all. You could have a kit of all 2.0 spinners(which will probably never happen) but if they don't work together there will be no glory. People will leave you house saying damn those birds were fast. If this happens, you have back your beliefs up. I have left Arnold's house saying that and Eddie "O Flowers'. I've even seen a kit of nice drk chks at Scott's house during the CA STATE FLY in 2005.
Both will help our hobby/sport progress but things need to be kept in perspective for the good of the pigeons.
KGB, while I was up north, the flyers up there gave you big props. Wish I could have seen one of your kits.
smoke747
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ezeedad
304 posts
Feb 04, 2008
10:38 PM
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Scott,
I didn't mean that your birds had to have muffs.. I meant that mine did...
So what are your twinky twirlers out of,,?? Ha Ha...
You must be Joe Testas' backup singer...
You have been twisting everything that I have said... First I said that lots of flyers have said that they had birds that they couldn't put into kit competition because thay were too deep.. This isn't something that I imagined or made up.
Every time I've heard that I felt that I was missing out on seeing something I really enjoy seeing.
You twisted that into something that I read three times but doesn't make sense to me still.
Then I had said that when a rollerman in old England had a bird he felt was like a champion he would issue a challenge to anyone to try to beat his bird. Again you twisted that into something different.
The kind of competition that I want to see and be involved in is when someone has what they believe to be their best fly against someone elses best. The conditions you are suggesting show that you don't get the message.
Keith says that you have good birds, so I guess you do.. But you make it sound like you don't have any "special"
individuals in your kit..
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Scott Campbell
45 posts
Feb 04, 2008
10:54 PM
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Nothing is created equal Paul,of coarse there is something sprcial in the kit,there are some extreamly nice birds in the kit that I would pit against anything, but there is also one two year old hen that is very special.
Dowm the road Paul if you want to have some fun just let me know , this whole for me was just about flying Paul and nothing else, that is what I do buddy, fly birds and keep pushing forward.
LaRon , you wanna fly ?
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Scott
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