Sandy91, SA Region 3
99 posts
Feb 07, 2008
4:03 PM
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Have anyone see a kit score more than 2000 points? I have never even see a kit get 1000. Is it really possible? I'd like to see a kit as "hot" that.
Just want to hear your thoughts.
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c robbo
43 posts
Feb 07, 2008
4:06 PM
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not a chance mate
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JMUrbon
351 posts
Feb 07, 2008
4:07 PM
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Never seen it and personally don't feel its possible.But I wasn't there. JMHO though. Joe Urbon
To answer your question though, Yes it has been done
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
Last Edited by on Feb 07, 2008 4:08 PM
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Sandy91, SA Region 3
101 posts
Feb 07, 2008
4:09 PM
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Thats why I ask alot of people believe its impossible but then we have scores in the W/C that shows otherwise...
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JMUrbon
352 posts
Feb 07, 2008
4:15 PM
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if you were to get out and see the way some of these judges score you would see that it is possible but not to a quality minded judge that doesnt just look at the action but rather sees the quality in a break.When a judge gives 8 breaks better than 14 birds in 5 minutes and gives a 1.8 for depth I have to wonder if his spectacles need replaced. Sure would have liked to have been there though. JMHO. Joe Urbon
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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Sandy91, SA Region 3
102 posts
Feb 07, 2008
4:16 PM
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1.) 5-8-5-12-6-6-11-5-11-18-7-5-8-12-6//15-13-12-9-15-17-5-6-16//18-17-10-6-15-14-10-16-14-15//15-13-6-14-17-15-12-7-15
1.4 1.5 2,284.80
2.) 6-6-13-15-5-8-9-5-16-16-8-6-5-5-7-15-13//8-5-5-8-16-13-12-8-7-5-8-7-8-7-7-6-5-6-6-6-5-5-5-5-7-6//7-6-5-8-5-16-13//7-10-6-8-9-5-12-5-7
1.7 1.6 2,031.84
Then how do one explain this? Look at all the breaks in 5min.. I dont know what to say..
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JMUrbon
353 posts
Feb 07, 2008
4:18 PM
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I know what I say but will refrain from it.LOL. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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c robbo
44 posts
Feb 07, 2008
4:22 PM
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you cud not right them in 5 mins. inpossibel
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Sandy91, SA Region 3
103 posts
Feb 07, 2008
4:23 PM
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When do the birds fly? I dont see time for them to fly cause they were just scoring...LOL I feel sorry for the scribe because he wont get a chance to look up....LOL
Last Edited by on Feb 07, 2008 4:26 PM
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Missouri-Flyer
1284 posts
Feb 07, 2008
4:27 PM
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Joe,
Do you smell something fishy?..LOL
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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JMUrbon
354 posts
Feb 07, 2008
4:28 PM
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He judged my birds in the finals that year also and they stunk that day and still had a respectable score considering they split up at the 7 min mark. Ya it left a sour taste in my mouth Jerry.LOL. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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Sandy91, SA Region 3
104 posts
Feb 07, 2008
4:34 PM
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How freuqant can a roller be and still stay in the air? At that rate of rolling its not supose to last 10 min...
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420
4 posts
Feb 07, 2008
5:33 PM
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I HAD A FRIEND SCORE 1190 5 YEARS AGO IN THE L.A. AREA HIS NAME IS CARLOS AND THER WAS 16 PEOPL THER THAT SEEN IT THAT THE MOST I SEEN.
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Sandy91, SA Region 3
107 posts
Feb 07, 2008
5:46 PM
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I saw a kit once who got 800 pionts put was for from it! Dont know were the 800 came from..
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kcfirl
280 posts
Feb 07, 2008
5:58 PM
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Guys,
let's not forget who we're disparaging. Heine Bijker, the top flyer in the world today scored Monte over 180o pts. Monte Neibel, the best flyer in history, scored Heine over 1,000 pts.
Basically you guys are saying these 2 guys don;t know how to judge kits.
Do I have that right?
Are you saying that because a guy doesn;t score a kit the same as you that he is wrong? So, only judges that score the way you do are correct?
Please explain.
Thanks,
Ken Firl
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JMUrbon
356 posts
Feb 07, 2008
6:03 PM
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Ken once again I will say I wasnt there and find it difficult to fathom. I wittnessed the judging last year and be as it may I feel it was a black eye for the roller world. If I am the only one to say this then so be it but I have heard otherwise while speaking to other prominant fliers in the hobby. I know that you will certainly get an apology from me when I feel one is warrented but in this case I stand firm. Joe Urbon
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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Sandy91, SA Region 3
112 posts
Feb 07, 2008
6:04 PM
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No Ken I am not saying that. I had a topic about judging but how can a kit do those amounts of breaks in 5 min and get good quality and stay in the air? Are they really "rolling" each time? I am just asking, have you seen such a kit?
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quickspin
325 posts
Feb 07, 2008
6:14 PM
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The way that you score a kit is as follows:
1) You write down the exact number of birds in each break during a 20 minute fly.
2) After the fly you multiply the numbers of breaks by the “multipliers”:
a) 0-5 birds = 0 (must have at least 5 birds rolling at the same time as a break)
b) 5-9 birds = 1 point per bird in the break
c) 10-14 birds = x 2 points for each bird in the break
d) 15-19 birds = x 3 points for each bird in the break
e) 20 birds = 100 points (full turn)
3) You add all of the “turn points” together; this becomes your “Raw Score”
4) Then after the fly, you assess a “Quality” score for the kit as a whole; this is a number between 1.0-2.0
5) You also assess a “Depth” score for the kit as a whole; this is also a number between 1.0-2.0
6) Once you have your “Raw Score”, “Quality Factor” and “Depth Factor”; you multiply the three together
7) The total is your Total Score.
Here’s an example:
Kit rolled 5 times during the fly with the following breaks: 5, 9, 11, 5, 7
a) Raw Score: 5+9+5+7=26 + (11x2) = 22 26+22= 48
b) Quality Score: 1.3
c) Depth Score: 1.2
d) Total Score: 48 x 1.3 x 1.2 = 74.88
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SALAS LOFT
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Sandy91, SA Region 3
115 posts
Feb 07, 2008
6:20 PM
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quickspin your not getting the piont! How on earth can you get a kit so active to score 2000+ pionts with good quality?
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quickspin
326 posts
Feb 07, 2008
6:23 PM
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kopetsa ask how to scored points I gave him a example. Not to score over 1000 points.
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SALAS LOFT
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Sandy91, SA Region 3
116 posts
Feb 07, 2008
6:25 PM
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Sorry I apolizise
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quickspin
329 posts
Feb 07, 2008
6:27 PM
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It's Ok, I was just giving him the details on how to come out with a score. I
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SALAS LOFT
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kopetsa
235 posts
Feb 07, 2008
6:29 PM
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Thanks a lot quickspin!
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smoke747
777 posts
Feb 07, 2008
6:35 PM
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Its not impossible. I have done it twice, once in 2005 and 2007. Now 2000 that is what I haven't seen.
smoke747
Last Edited by on Feb 07, 2008 6:37 PM
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WCWINR97
130 posts
Feb 07, 2008
6:42 PM
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Lucky post 777! Smokes a Winner!!
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ROD
Last Edited by on Feb 07, 2008 6:44 PM
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quickspin
331 posts
Feb 07, 2008
6:46 PM
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Rod, you going to score close to that this season right? You have a really good holdover kit from last year. Specially that black one you got there.
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SALAS LOFT
Last Edited by on Feb 07, 2008 6:48 PM
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WCWINR97
131 posts
Feb 07, 2008
6:49 PM
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Quick, im going to try...scored 900pts in 2005.OH stop !lol!
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Rod
Last Edited by on Feb 07, 2008 6:50 PM
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Sandy91, SA Region 3
118 posts
Feb 07, 2008
6:49 PM
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I think it is maybe possible to score 2000 but you have to score at least one or more "full" turns.. Witch is propably next...LOL
Last Edited by on Feb 07, 2008 6:52 PM
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JMUrbon
360 posts
Feb 07, 2008
6:54 PM
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Keath no disrespect to you but I was not there. I sure would have like to have been though. You see the same judges every year in the WC and FF prelims that give highly elevated scores only to see the scores down dramatically in the finals. To me something is wrong with this system. I think judging is always going to be subjective but I feel it does nobody any justice when scores such as these are given out. JMHO. Joe Urbon
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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Sandy91, SA Region 3
119 posts
Feb 07, 2008
7:03 PM
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My own opinion is that you get a kit that is very active and scorable so lots of small breaks and low quality and dedth factors then you get the kit that waits and then suddenly explodes and is easy to judge because you can just count the birds that havent roll. They normaly get big breaks and high quality and depth factors and rolls about once every min. If you combine the two you should get an active kit that scores some small and some bigger breaks and the quality should be average about 1.4-1.5
You might dissagree its up to you. This is just mu opinion and I know nothing....LOL
Last Edited by on Feb 07, 2008 7:05 PM
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smoke747
779 posts
Feb 07, 2008
7:09 PM
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you are correct . The judges are a little harder than the locals. On that day there was about 30 witnesses. I had 24 breaks.Q-1.6 X D-1.5 = 2.40
THE BOPS TOOK 8 OF THE 18 THAT WERE FLOWN. Had to plug in youngsters to refill the kit. the birds were 2 -5 yrs old.
now I'm rebuilding.
SMOKE747
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Mongrel Lofts
517 posts
Feb 07, 2008
7:09 PM
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Ken F.
You might want to talk to Hiene about those huge scores. On his last judging trip, he said that is one of the reason's he wanted to judge the 2nd time.. He said he respected Monty and let his loose judging influence him. He said he wanted to go back to the way he was taught to score and how they score them in his local area. Check those scores against his first judging trip. Hiene said it was a hell of a kit if it scored 300 pts at home.. Heck, he may have said lower than that. I'm not argueing with you. I'm just sharing what Hiene told me. KGB
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kcfirl
283 posts
Feb 07, 2008
9:28 PM
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Kenny,
I have talked to Heine, he has stayed at my house and played with my kids. He never mentioned it but I will ask him next time around.
Joe - I'm not looking for any apology for anything.
I am asking your opinion of Heine bijker and Monte Neibel ion judging a kit of rollers.
Ken
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Scott
5 posts
Feb 07, 2008
9:35 PM
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We are on a very slippery slope it is becoming a mockery.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Flipmode
107 posts
Feb 07, 2008
9:43 PM
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LMAO!Take a look at the 2nd flyer. Between the 10-15min mark there was 26 breaks! In 5 min! Thats 5 breaks per min! WOW! Some kit or some judge!
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George R.
131 posts
Feb 07, 2008
9:46 PM
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Monty scored I think 1900 and the judge was H. Bieker
and Im not sure what Monty gave Hiene when he was the Judge
Last Edited by on Feb 07, 2008 9:46 PM
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George R.
132 posts
Feb 07, 2008
9:50 PM
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Burnett Brullie scored the SGV Spinners and Brian Dominguez scored 1600 pionts and Hector scored 800 pionts and I flew I think 4 flys that season to get 460 pionts then I moved and a new guy wiped me out in one fly the Burnett Brullie judged I think he gave him 580 pionts.
So yes it can be done.
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kcfirl
284 posts
Feb 07, 2008
9:53 PM
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The score of Monte of 1800 was by Heine in the finals. the score of Heine by Monte in the finals was over 1000.
I am talking about what I consider to be quality judges in WC finals guys.
I would like to know from Joe, KGB, and Scott, what exactly do you think could have been done incorrectly? Did the birds not roll 10 feet? Did they waterfall? Were the quality multipliers too high? Were the birds rolling in those two kits not of high enough quality to score?
What was it that Heine and Monty scored, that should not have been?
I know none of us where there but we have the records. I am wondering what could have possibly been done wrong in the scoring?
Thanks,
Ken Firl
PS. Is it possible that those kits actually were so much better than anything any of us has ever seen that they truly did deserve the scores they received?
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kcfirl
285 posts
Feb 07, 2008
9:58 PM
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Here is the breakdown of Monte's score by Heine Bijker from the WC web site:
Monty Neibel - Vancouver Island B C Canada.
1894.40 points 5 6 7 9 6 8 10 6 10 11 10 13 7 6 7 12 7 13 15 6 12 8 5 6 12 9 10 8
8 7 8 7 15 10 12 9 6 14 10 9 10 9 5 10 7 10 14 15 8
raw 740 Q 1.6 D 1.6 20 birds.
49 breaks, 18 1/2's or better, 3 3/4's.
And I love this quote from Heine on judging the kit "It was easy judging, just count the birds that rolled out of the kit."
Scott and Kenny - please tell me how a kit that was so easy too judge received a score that was sooooo off?
Thanks,
Ken
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W@yne
1041 posts
Feb 07, 2008
10:26 PM
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Joe Urban i will agree with you 100% with everything you have said on this.
Good flyers dont always make good judges also.
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Regards
W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection
=====================================
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nicksiders
2552 posts
Feb 07, 2008
10:29 PM
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I am sure that the best kit won; don't get all strung out on the score......
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Scott
9 posts
Feb 08, 2008
6:54 AM
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You and I both have talked about this Ken and there no reason to drag it up again.
Myself and Hiene talked about it for a couple days and what is happening,never did I instigate the conversation due to he was judging.
Take a look at their regional scores over there,that tells the story as they are very realistic.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Feb 08, 2008 6:55 AM
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Sandy91, SA Region 3
121 posts
Feb 08, 2008
7:24 AM
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My Question to start with was if it is possible for a kit to score more than 2000 pionts and from what I have seen here is that somewhere a HUGE junp has been made from Qualifing scores to W/C scores in some cases so in MY OPINION it is what meets the judges standard, some judges like someone said correctly can fly kits but arent that good in juging it self... In most sports people get HIGH pionts in local or even Reginal events and then a Internatianal level the bars are much higher and should be more difficult...Remember its MY OPINION only...
Last Edited by on Feb 08, 2008 7:28 AM
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Scott
11 posts
Feb 08, 2008
8:23 AM
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Pretty doubtful, the wheels would fall off, all these loose judges have the same things in common.
1. no quality standard,everything scores,the good and the bad
2. depth means nothing, everything scores, the short to the ones with proper depth
3. calling breaks where there were no breaks,just birds rolling out of sink and throwing a number on it ,not even waterfalling.
4. scoreing water falls
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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kcfirl
286 posts
Feb 08, 2008
9:36 AM
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Scott/Joe/ALL,
I didn't bring it up again. I only responded to someone else bringing it up and then you guys claiming those scores were all BS.
I aksed this before but since you ignored the question, I'll ask again.
Please tell me specifically what Heine said he did wrong in judging that kit. and if he was soooooo wrong that day, why hasn;t he said so publicly. what he has said publicly is that the kit was EASY TO JUDGE.
I see a few things he may have done wrong(sarcasm):
Top 10 HARD CORE ROLLER GUY reasons Heine scored Monte's birds incorrectly
1: Monte's birds were really waterfalling and not going within the 1/2 second rule.
2: Monte's birds weren't actually 10 ft in depth.
3: Monte's birds weren't actually scoreable quality rollers.
4: Monte had out birds and Heine ignored that.
5: Heine can't count birds in a break correctly.
6: Heine's watch quit working and he scored the birds for an hour.
7: Monte and Heine were actuallky fishing at the time and Monte paid Heine to give him that score!
8: the kit was actually very difficult to judge and Heine lied when he said it was easy to judge.
9: Heine was hung over form the drinking the night before and couldn't see straight.
10: The multipliers should have been 1.0, 1.0 because Monte's birds were barely scoreable.
Please tell me which of these possible reasons you think are the ones that make the score wrong?
Or, and I ask again, is it possible that those kits were so much better than anything we've seen that they deserved those scores?
Ken
PS. Man, I'm beginning to taste some SOUR GRAPES here. why do we insist on knocking down something that we weren't there to see?
LOL
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JMUrbon
365 posts
Feb 08, 2008
12:16 PM
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Ken you are correct in stating that I was not there. Now it is my understanding that they were the only ones present at the time of the scoreing they gave each other. I am not attacking either of theirs integrity and in fact when Heine judged my birds I felt he was spot on. But in reality you need to stop and take a look at some of the great kits you have seen over the years and in fact some that you have judged and think about it like this. When a kit breaks 4 or 5 times a minute and knowing what I feel it takes to get a 1.5--1.7 depth rating then when do the birds have time to fly. Shit in no time at all they would be sitting on the ground. Also Ken there was no mention from me in the judging of Heine on this thread but rather last years finals was the one in question and Heine didnt judge last year. I witnessed the judging last year and it was less than desirable to put it politely.I dont think he new the difference between flutter and roll and look at the overall scores and that is very apparent.
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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Shadow
55 posts
Feb 08, 2008
1:18 PM
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Whats done is done especially in this fly,scores were called,and marked,bottom line being the format is still there for this to happen again,the pint being we have learned nothing,to score these points in allotted time,its obvious,under no circumstances were these birds rolling in the fashion that I call rolling,its a physical and practical impossibility,which is capable of happening again if judge has to observe kit working directly/over him,when he could genuinely confuse kit activity/movement with rolling,to encourage proper rolling you must mark it highest/quality rollers in any kit score highest/too high scoring being awarded to numerical breaks,which can cloak so many rolling flaws,when your eye are automatically drawn to a possible proper roller down who is spinning to the finish of break
Ask yourself is this system of marking benificial to those of us,who are attempting to produce decent rollers.
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Sandy91, SA Region 3
134 posts
Feb 08, 2008
1:29 PM
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Joe can I mail you? If yes send me your e-mail please.
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JMUrbon
366 posts
Feb 08, 2008
1:31 PM
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jmurbonlofts@sbcglobal.net
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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Electric-man
1118 posts
Feb 08, 2008
1:58 PM
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I watched the judge score a kit in the finals last year and I didn't see very many birds even going 5', much less 10. The judge was just ripping off scores! Half of the birds that he was scoring were just flipping, not rolling! Pretty confusing to me!
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Val
"Site Moderator"
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